Leadership Red Flag—When Managers Care More About Career Than Team Success | Lilia Pulova

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: "Leadership Red Flag—When Managers Care More About Career Than Team Success" with Lilia Pulova

Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Lilia Pulova
Release Date: June 24, 2025

---

1. Introduction to Team Tuesday and Inspirational Reads

Vasco Duarte kicks off the episode by welcoming Lilia Pulova to this week's Team Tuesday segment. As part of their tradition, they also delve into books that have significantly influenced their professional journeys.

Book Highlight: "48 Laws of Power" by Robert Greene

• Lilia's Insight:
  Lilia shares that "48 Laws of Power" by Robert Greene is an unconventional yet profoundly impactful book for her career as a Scrum Master. She emphasizes that the book isn't about exerting power but understanding human behavior and psychology. This knowledge aids Scrum Masters in navigating team dynamics effectively.

• Notable Quote (02:54):
  "Always say less than necessary. That means give the team a chance to get responsibility to be accountable for a decision they're making for the project they're handling."
  — Lilia Pulova

---

2. Applying "48 Laws of Power" in Scrum Mastery

Host Discussion:

Vasco and Lilia delve deeper into how specific laws from Greene's book apply to Scrum Master roles. Lilia highlights the importance of restraint in communication to empower teams.

• Key Takeaway:
  By limiting directives, Scrum Masters allow teams the autonomy to make decisions, fostering accountability and ownership.

---

3. Team Tuesday Story: Navigating Leadership Challenges

Context:

Lilia recounts a challenging experience from her early career as a Scrum Master. She describes a team plagued by consistent delays and inefficiencies, which she later identifies as stemming from managerial shortcomings.

Detailed Breakdown:

• Team Dynamics:

  • The team was cross-functional, comprising developers, product owners, and designers.
  • Issue Identified: The manager prioritized his career advancement over the team's success, focusing disproportionately on the design segment to garner favor with upper management.

• Managerial Behavior:

  • Provided ample resources and training to designers.
  • Dismissed team concerns about project delays, contractor issues, and meeting attendance, stating, "you are their manager. You have to tell them because I'm not in the position." (05:10)

• Consequences:

  • Lack of unity as team members worked in silos, each handling their own tasks without cohesive integration.
  • The resulting disarray led to project failures and ultimately, the team being disbanded during the COVID-19 pandemic.

• Notable Quote (07:57):
  "He just created the mess and then he left it."
  — Lilia Pulova

---

4. Team and Individual Reactions

Challenges Faced:

• Team Morale:
  Team members expressed frustration during one-on-one sessions with Lilia, venting their concerns about the lack of managerial support.

• Management's Response:
  When Lilia escalated the issues, management responded dismissively, urging her to lead the team despite her position as a Scrum Master, stating, "I can help to give the direction, but I cannot lead this team because I don't have a position to do that." (08:46)

• Impact on the Team:
  The team's inability to address systemic issues without managerial intervention led to dwindling morale and eventual dissolution.

• Notable Quote (09:37):
  "He was basically saying it's your problem, not mine."
  — Lilia Pulova

---

5. Embracing Leadership as a Scrum Master

Host's Reflection:

Vasco discusses the delicate balance Scrum Masters must maintain between facilitating team success and stepping into leadership roles when necessary. He highlights the potential conflicts that arise when Scrum Masters take on responsibilities traditionally held by managers.

Lilia's Growth:

• Early Career Challenges:
  As a junior Scrum Master, Lilia struggled to identify and address the root causes of her team's issues due to limited experience and authority.

• Evolved Approach:
  With time and experience, Lilia learned to assert leadership by taking decisive actions to guide her team, even in the absence of managerial support.

• Notable Quote (11:41):
  "I just stood up in front of the team and I told them, okay, guys, that's how we're going to do it."
  — Lilia Pulova

---

6. Lessons Learned and Career Implications

Key Insights:

• Proactive Leadership:
  Scrum Masters may need to adopt leadership roles proactively to ensure team cohesion and project success, especially in the absence of supportive management.

• Career Development:
  The role of a Scrum Master serves as a foundation for future leadership positions such as Product Owner, Team Lead, or Engineering Manager. Embracing leadership challenges can prepare Scrum Masters for broader roles within organizations.

• Notable Quote (12:05):
  "It's important to look at our Scrum Master career... as a preparation to take on other types of roles."
  — Vasco Duarte

---

7. Conclusion and Takeaways

The episode underscores the critical role Scrum Masters play in fostering team success and the necessity of sometimes stepping beyond traditional boundaries to lead effectively. Through Lilia's experiences, listeners gain valuable insights into handling managerial challenges, the importance of proactive leadership, and the continuous growth inherent in the Scrum Master role.

Final Thought:
Empowering teams by balancing guidance with autonomy is essential. Scrum Masters must navigate organizational dynamics thoughtfully to ensure both team and personal career growth.

---

References:

• Podcast Episode: "Leadership Red Flag—When Managers Care More About Career Than Team Success" with Lilia Pulova
• Book Mentioned: 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene

Transcript

[Vasko]

Hey there, agile adventurer, just a quick question. What if for the price of a fancy coffee or half a pizza, you could unlock over 700 hours of the best agile content on the planet? That's audio, video, E courses, books, presentations, all that you can think of. But you can also join live calls with world class practitioners and hang out in a flame war free and AI slop clean slack with the sharpest minds in the game. Oh, and yes, you get direct access to me, Vasko, your Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. No, this is not a drill. It's this Scrum Master Toolbox membership. And it's your unfair advantage in the agile world. So if you want to know more, go check out scrummastertoolbox.org membership, that's scrummastertoolbox.org Membership. And check out all the goodies we have for you. Do it now. But if you're not doing it now, let's listen to the podcast.

[Host]

Hello everybody. Welcome to our Team Tuesday this week with Lilia Pulova. Hey Lilia, welcome back.

[Lilia Pulova]

Hello again.

[Host]

So Tuesday is of course Team Tuesday, but we also talk about books. Pardon me, because books are very often a source of inspiration and knowledge. So share with us, what was the book that most inspired you in your career as a Scrum Master?

[Lilia Pulova]

I think it might be a very weird choice for everyone, but for me it was a 48 laws of power by Robert Greene. In my opinion, it's a great book and not to exercise your power, but to learn on human behavior, human psychology, how people react in different situations, what outcomes action can give you. I would really recommend because there have a lot of real life, historical and contemporary examples on some action or some event and how the human behavior made in different outcomes. So if you do step right, you get one result. If you just step left, you get a completely different result. Because that's pretty much what we do as Scrum Masters. We, we deal with humans on a daily basis and from our actions the outcome depend a lot.

[Host]

Absolutely. A lot of things depend on our actions. Can you remember one of those laws of power that Robert Greene talks about in the book that you could highlight for us as Scrum Masters?

[Lilia Pulova]

That's a very good question. Just so maybe one of the important for Scrum Master, I would say always say less than necessary. That means give the team a chance to get responsibility to be accountable for a decision they're making for the project they're handling. So give them an idea, give them a direction and they will find a way how to get there.

[Host]

Absolutely. That's a great point that the space that we leave the team can take. But if we leave no space, then of course the team cannot take any space in this case to make a decision and to own their own decision. Very good, great example. And of course the link to the 48 laws of power will be in the show notes for everybody to go and check out the book. But of course we want to help teams with these ideas, these insights we get from the books. But sometimes teams create their own problems and that's one of the stories we want to explore this week and specifically today. The Team Tuesday story. Liliya so share with us the story of a team, tell us a little bit about the context and then highlight for us those behaviors or patterns that over time emerged and created a problem for that team.

[Lilia Pulova]

I had an example in my career when the team was, I'd say a little bit destructive because whatever projects we were working, we were never on time, we were always late. Something was off. At that time I was still a junior Scrum master so I couldn't see the problem right away. Right now I would say from after years of experience I can identify it easier and faster. But at that time I didn't really realize realized that the problem was a manager.

[Host]

Tell us a little bit more, tell us about the details. How did the interactions work? What kind of presence did that manager have with the team?

[Lilia Pulova]

So the manager was, let's say a bit more concerned about his own career than about the team well being.

[Host]

And how did that show up in practice?

[Lilia Pulova]

In practice because we had a cross functional team. We had devs, we had po, we had designers and he was focused on one part of the team that could give him more self shyness in front of their upper management and higher management directors. He was more focused on the, let's say designers. He would give whatever the tools they need, whatever the trainings they need. And when we were asking for something, oh let's do some overtime because we are late again or like contractors don't listen to us, they don't take us seriously or why they, you have to tell them to come to the meetings, like yeah, that's what I do. But if they don't listen, you are their manager. You have to tell them because I'm not in the position. And it was, it was difficult because we were not united as a team. We were everyone working his own part and it didn't work well because the team, we worked together for the same target and there like everyone had his own task. We were working and Then we were trying to put these pieces together and they not exactly worked. We could find that the pieces are from different parts from different projects and we could not put them together. The team ended up being completely destructed. And then there was our infamous and unfortunate situation of COVID happened and the team was just let go altogether because.

[Host]

So what you're saying is like there was a bunch of problems that were kind of, I guess triggered by certain behaviors from the manager, like giving more attention to one part of the team, not really wanting to know or solve or help solve the bigger problems the team was facing that the team and yourself were kind of bringing up. And then because the team was constantly in this loop of, you know, we're always late and we're not delivering what is being asked because you know there's missing information, we are not having the contractors in the meeting so we can't talk about or ask about what's missing. Then at the end of the day, when push came to shove or when there was a critical moment, it was very easy to decide to let go of the team, Right?

[Lilia Pulova]

Absolutely. Yeah. Because the team wasn't bringing much value to organization.

[Host]

Yeah. Just out of curiosity, did the manager also. Was the manager also let go at the same time?

[Lilia Pulova]

No, he left for another organization just in time. He just created the mess and then he left it.

[Host]

Wow. When you were having these conversations with the team members, like you were trying to raise up the topics to the manager, but nothing was being addressed or even considered essential or interesting, how did the team react? Like what kind of conversations did you have in your one on ones? For example?

[Lilia Pulova]

Team reacted pretty like when I had my one on one. We did of course raised a lot of questions. The team was taking out the frustration and everything. We somehow we, we were able to understand each other and find some.

[Host]

Short.

[Lilia Pulova]

Term solutions for that, but we needed support from the management. And when I would raise it to the management, the answer was like, oh, but you, I want you to lead the team. Yeah, but I'm not a team lead. I'm a servant leader. I can help to give the direction, but I cannot lead this team because I don't have a position to do that. It's a different role. Although, yes, Scrum Master, I think it is kind of a leadership role, but in a different way.

[Host]

So you're also saying that you did not have the hierarchical position, but also you didn't feel support to go and help solve these problems because the manager was basically saying it's your problem, not mine. Right?

[Lilia Pulova]

Yeah. Kind of trying to shift responsibility to find a person who would be paying for all this message.

[Host]

Yeah. One of the things that is not really easy for us to navigate as Scrum Masters is that at the end of the day, in some cases, we do need to step up and act as if we were the manager. And that may cause lots of conflicts, because, of course, the team leads would definitely not be happy to see us Scrum Masters take that kind of position. So one of the things that I've been thinking about, and I was just coaching a client recently that had had a similar conflict with the manager of the team, one of the things that I've been thinking about is that over time, we need to recognize as Scrum Masters, that perhaps the next logical step is to take a leadership position. Because as you just said, when we are Scrum Masters that have no hierarchical responsibility or power, we very often are at the mercy of whatever the manager of the team decides to do, no matter what we say. Right.

[Lilia Pulova]

Exactly. And also, it really depends on what, let's say, part or grade of your career you are. Because at that particular situation, I was a junior Scrum Master, I still needed support just for myself as well, not just for the team. Now, after certain years of experience, I know how to deal with this situation. It takes time and experience to get. So when I had a particular, slightly particular situation a year ago, I just stood up in front of the team and I told them, okay, guys, that's how we're going to do it. Because nobody wanted to take responsibility in either team lead or technical lead or manager. They were just all sitting in the corner waiting to see what happens.

[Host]

Yeah, absolutely. And that is one example of taking that leadership position. Right. Because sometimes nobody else picks up the. The. The task, and we need to be the ones also doing that to. To model the behavior. Right. To show the team that it's. It's not okay to let it go because nobody's listening to us.

[Lilia Pulova]

Yep.

[Host]

And one of the things that I wanted to highlight is that this shows how important it is to look at our Scrum Master career. Not just as Scrum Master, of course, that it is as well, but also as a preparation to take on other types of roles, like, of course, product owner, which is a very common transition that we've heard about on the podcast, but also team lead, or even engineering manager, or even department head.

[Lilia Pulova]

Yep.

[Host]

Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that story, Lilia.

[Lilia Pulova]

My pleasure.

[Vasko]

All right, I hope you liked this episode, but before you hit next episode, here's the deal. This Podcast is powered by people like you, the members who wanted more than just inspiration. They wanted real tools and real connection to people who are practicing Agile. Every day we're talking access to over 700 hours of agile Gold, CTO level strategy talks, Summit keynotes, live workshops, E courses, Deep Dive interviews, books, and if you're into no Estimates, we got the.

[Host]

Pioneers of no Estimates in those Deep.

[Vasko]

Dive interviews as well. Agile Business Intelligence, creating product visions, coaching your product owner courses, you name it. You'll get invites to monthly live Q&As with agile pioneers and practitioners, plus a private Slack community which is free of all of that AI slop you see everywhere. And of course without the flame wars. It's a community of practitioners that want to learn and thrive together. It's the best place to connect with community and learn together. So if this podcast has helped you before, imagine what you will get from this podcast membership. So head on over to scrummastertoolbox.org membership and join the community that's shaping the future of Agile. We have so much for you, so check out all the [e-mail] membership because listening is great, it's important. But doing it together, that's next level. I'll see you in the community.

[Host]

Slack we really hope you liked our show. And if you did, why not rate this podcast on Stitcher or itunes. Share this podcast and let other Scrum masters know about this valuable resource for their work. Remember that sharing is caring.