Host (4:52)

So basically the teams have adopted Scrum, but nobody else did. Yeah.

Chris Sims (4:57)

And so, and this is a pattern I've seen since, which I describe as trying to adopt SCRUM in an additive way, meaning we have some way that we work around here and then we're going to lay Scrum on top of it. And it makes things worse, right? Because now people are going to more meetings and there's more sources of work. And so we end up in this dynamic that I've written about several times now called everyone is busy, but delivery is slow. And the solution of course is we really have to work with that middle management layer to help them understand what do we need? What are the new behaviors we need from them? We have.

Host (5:40)

How do we do that? Because, I mean, I imagine the, the conversations that might arise from that. The VP definitely wants the teams to go with Scrum, that one VP that started the change, but maybe not all the other VPs want. Maybe the other VPs are still used to going to certain people and getting things done their way when they want it. Like, it's not an easy challenge to tackle, is it?

Chris Sims (6:06)

It's really hard. And a lot of how to approach it and how successful will it be has to do with the sphere of influence of the leaders initiating the change. And so it's important for a large change initiative to be successful. That kind of all of the key leaders are on board, or at the very least, the leaders who are initiating guiding the change are able to present an interface to the rest of the organization for how they will get their needs met going forward. Right. So, for example, oh, you don't go to a program manager anymore. You go to this product owner person. Right? This is how you get your needs met. And it's important then that those people in the middle are given guidance and support to redirect those folks who are coming to them. And that's great, so long as they don't report to those folks. Right. And that's where the sphere of influence becomes really important. Because if my manager is not on board with the change and my manager is coming to me demanding things, what am I going to do? Right. I'm going to use whatever tools available to me to make my manager happy.

Host (7:28)

One of the things that I've experienced with is that Scrum can bring a lot of uncertainty and confusion to that middle management. So it's not necessarily only that they don't yet know how to act in an environment where Scrum is the norm, but it might also be that they genuinely aren't aware of what their role is anymore.

Chris Sims (7:51)

Right.

Host (7:52)

Like, it's not just about telling them, hey, here's how you get work into the backlog. That's a very practical question that needs to be answered. But it might also be about, okay, but, you know, how important am I now? I used to, you know, identify with this role that I had, and the role had certain responsibilities and power, and now Scrum came and took it away.

Chris Sims (8:15)

Yeah, and this is something I've learned over the years. I'm currently actively involved in two large organizations that are going through transitions. One's. One's about a year in, so we're doing fine tuning, and the other one is at the precipice. We're just like doing the planning for their big transition. And so part of doing this well is essentially rewriting the job descriptions of the managers. Right? Changing their okrs or whatever, you know, whatever approach is used to give them guidance so that they really understand a number one, they are still vitally important. Right. People want to Be important. And it turns out they really are. Right? And number two, want them to understand what we're counting on them for. So line managers, for example, we typically really want them to move more into coaching and mentoring. Right. How do you develop the people that report to you? Very frequently we reorg things so that the teams are cross functional, so they have people with different skills, but each person reports to a manager who is very strong in that skill that they have and that positions that manager actually to be a really great person to anchor like a community of practice, a guild, whatever you want to call it. But it's a way of people who work in the same area to coordinate that work even though they're on different teams. And so we're looking for managers to be very active in coordinating how the work is done and the quality of the work and tools and standards and all of that. But not assigning work. Right. And that's an important subtle thing where the managers become more about the quality of the work and the capabilities of the people and less about what work is happening. That's getting determined at the team level.

Host (10:15)

And that leads to of course, the other, call it dimension of the middle management, which this project dimension, right? Program managers, project managers who are also now in the same situation, like, well, what is my new role? If there are no projects because we're doing continuous development and continuous delivery, then what do I do? Do you have some tips to share with us regarding specifically that kind of roles?

Chris Sims (10:42)

So I have found that those kind of folks tend to migrate to one of three places. Some of them are very people, process, communication oriented, with some coaching guidance, perhaps a little bit of training, they often can make great Scrum masters, right? The skill sets are very similar, but the behaviors are very different between say a great project manager and a great Scrum master. So you know, with some coaching and guidance about like, hey, how we want you to use your skills differently, that's one aspect where I've seen folks like that become really amazing Scrum Masters for folks who are more about the outcome, right? They're driving towards a goal, that's what excites them. Becoming a product owner might be a really great option, right? Where it's all about what should we be building and communicating with the stakeholders and making prioritization decisions and all of that. And then finally at big organizations, I found there's still usually work for people as program managers or even project managers because projects might, you know, span multiple types of development, multiple areas of the organization. And so there is still some of that work to do. The interface is different though. Instead of trying to manage individuals and tasks, they're working with teams and backlogs and product owners. So the interface that they are connecting with the organization, or at least with the work part of the organization changes. But still that that kind of coordinating and seeing the bigger picture and all of that, you know, we still need that, especially with projects that have manufacturing and logistics and all of those sorts of concerns.

Host (12:37)

Yeah, absolutely. That's a great point and great tips because change does affect everyone in the organization and we need to have clear paths for everyone. Otherwise we'll get resistance, conflict and eventually failure. Thank you for sharing that, Chris.

Chris Sims (12:53)

My pleasure.

Host (12:56)

Hey friend, thank you for staying here is all you need to know about the Global Agile Summit if you've ever suffered or know people who are suffering from Agile fatigue, this event is for you. Agile fatigue is that feeling that settles in when we can't really see a light at the end of the tunnel. We get discouraged, especially when conversations revolve around the same old frameworks, the same old buzzwords and theories. We don't feel that energy anymore. Well, the Global Agile Summit is a different kind of event. We're bringing you real life first person stories of agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action and transform the way you work. The Global Agile Summit will happen In Tallinn, Estonia, May 18th. That's the workshop day. Then 19th and 20th the conference day. And Tallin, Estonia is one of the most innovative tech hubs in Europe. The Global Agile Summit is hosted together with Latitude 59, which is kind of a citywide celebration of software startups and groundbreaking ideas. And we'll have a shared ticket for you to attend those events as well. So who will be speaking? Well, we've got an incredible lineup of thought leadership in software and agile. For example, Clinton Keith, the person who wrote literally wrote the book on game development with Scrum and is busy bringing Agile to the world of game development. You must check his session. The very famous and well known Jurgen Apello, author of Management 3.0, will be talking and exploring about AI's impact on leadership. We also have Goiko Atsic, who's taking an unconventional look at product growth with his Lizard Optimization keynote. Other speakers include, for example, Sig Sven Dietz, who's challenging everything we know about software development by ditching, literally ditching contracts and estimates. Can you imagine his teams deliver software before their competitors are even done with a contract negotiation? How agile is that? But there's more. We'll cover engineering practices in our developer track with talks on for example AI assisted test driven development, developing products in minutes with a different approach to how we develop, configure, deploy platforms and much more. We also have a product track where we cover cutting edge ideas around product discovery, delighting customers with product delight frameworks. We'll have a talk about that. And we also have an Agile Business track where we will talk about for example Open strategy, a very agile approach to managing organizations and delivering software faster to clients faster than you can even write a contract. Literally. I mean, I already told you about Svendit's story is amazing. It definitely is a must see. I'm sure you'll be inspired and get a lot of ideas for your own software projects and software delivery. Now whether you're a business leader, a product innovator or a developer, you'll definitely find value in our three four focused tracks. That's Agile Business for those working with businesses and organizations, Agile Product for product managers, product owners and innovators and Agile Developer for the builders making Agile work in practice. The coders, the testers, the designers, the producers, the scrum masters, you name it. If you join, you will meet over 200 agile professionals from all over the world. People who just like you, want to grow, want to share and want to learn by challenging the ideas that don't work anymore at the Global Agile Summit, you'll get new connections, fresh ideas and the energy to take your own Agile to the next level. And who knows, maybe even find your next career opportunity. So don't miss out. Check out the full program and grab your ticket now@globalagilesummit.com I'm really looking forward to seeing you all in Tallinn, Estonia in May. I'll see you there.