Middle Management, The Forgotten Layer in Agile Transformations | Chris Sims

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches

Episode: Middle Management, The Forgotten Layer in Agile Transformations
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Chris Sims
Release Date: April 23, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte engages with Chris Sims to delve into the often-overlooked role of middle management in Agile transformations. Chris shares his extensive experience as an Agile coach and consultant, highlighting the critical impact middle management has on the success or failure of adopting Scrum within organizations.

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The Critical Role of Middle Management in Agile Transformations

Understanding the Change Process

Chris Sims begins by outlining the typical change process organizations undergo when adopting Agile methodologies. He emphasizes the importance of involving all layers of management to ensure a seamless transition.

“Helping an organization change... early in my Agile journey as an internal change agent... [we] did a bunch of training for the teams and helped the teams get started.”
— Chris Sims [01:34]

Chris recounts a failure story from a well-known startup that faced sluggish progress after initial success. The company attempted to adopt Scrum to regain momentum but neglected the middle management layer, resulting in continued bureaucratic impediments.

“What we didn't do... was pay enough attention to the middle management layer.”
— Chris Sims [02:00]

Consequences of Ignoring Middle Management

The oversight led to managers continuing their traditional roles of assigning tasks, conflicting with the new Scrum framework where teams self-organize and prioritize their backlogs.

“Now they were on a Scrum team that had a backlog and a product owner... Except the managers were still assigning them work...”
— Chris Sims [03:10]

This misalignment created an environment where multiple sources of work assignments led to decreased efficiency and increased frustration among team members.

“Everyone is busy, but delivery is slow.”
— Chris Sims [04:20]

Patterns of Partial Scrum Adoption

Chris identifies a common pattern where organizations attempt to layer Scrum onto existing processes without fully committing to the necessary cultural and structural changes. This additive approach often exacerbates existing issues rather than resolving them.

“Trying to adopt SCRUM in an additive way... makes things worse.”
— Chris Sims [04:35]

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Strategies for Integrating Middle Management into Agile

Influence of Leadership

Effective Agile transformation requires the support and alignment of all key leaders within the organization. Chris highlights the significance of leaders being on the same page to guide their teams effectively.

“It’s important for a large change initiative to be successful... all of the key leaders are on board.”
— Chris Sims [06:00]

Redefining Managerial Roles

One of the crucial steps in integrating middle management into Agile is redefining their roles and responsibilities. Chris suggests that managers transition from task assignment to coaching and mentoring.

“We really have to work with that middle management layer to help them understand... they are still vitally important.”
— Chris Sims [08:00]

This involves rewriting job descriptions and adjusting performance metrics (OKRs) to align with Agile principles, focusing on the development and support of team members rather than direct task management.

“Line managers... move more into coaching and mentoring.”
— Chris Sims [08:30]

Addressing Project and Program Managers

For project and program managers, Chris provides tailored advice, recognizing the shift from traditional project oversight to collaborative coordination within Agile teams.

“Those kind of folks tend to migrate to one of three places... Scrum masters, product owners, or new forms of program managers.”
— Chris Sims [11:00]

He outlines pathways for these professionals to adapt their skills to fit into Agile environments effectively, emphasizing the importance of flexibility and continuous learning.

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Reorganizing for Agile Success

Community of Practice

Chris advocates for creating communities of practice or guilds within organizations to foster collaboration and knowledge sharing among managers with similar skills.

“Managers become very active in coordinating how the work is done and the quality of the work...”
— Chris Sims [09:15]

Quality and Capability Focus

By shifting the focus from task management to quality and capability enhancement, managers can better support Agile teams in delivering high-quality outcomes.

“Managers become more about the quality of the work and the capabilities of the people...”
— Chris Sims [09:45]

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Challenges and Solutions in Transforming Middle Management

Navigating Uncertainty

Chris acknowledges the inherent challenges in changing established roles, particularly the uncertainty and confusion that Scrum can introduce to middle management.

“Scrum can bring a lot of uncertainty and confusion to that middle management.”
— Vasco Duarte [07:51]

Providing Guidance and Support

Successful transformation hinges on providing managers with clear guidance and support to navigate their new roles. This includes training, coaching, and redefining success metrics to align with Agile objectives.

“We’re looking for managers to be very active in coordinating how the work is done...”
— Chris Sims [09:30]

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Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Chris Sims wraps up the discussion by reiterating the importance of inclusive Agile transformations that consider and integrate middle management effectively. He emphasizes that without addressing the needs and roles of managers, organizations risk falling into patterns of increased busyness without corresponding improvements in delivery and efficiency.

“Change does affect everyone in the organization and we need to have clear paths for everyone.”
— Vasco Duarte [12:37]

Actionable Insights:

1. Engage Middle Management Early: Involve managers in the Agile adoption process from the outset to ensure alignment and support.
2. Redefine Managerial Roles: Transition managers to coaching and mentoring roles, focusing on team development and quality assurance.
3. Provide Training and Support: Offer comprehensive training to managers to help them understand and thrive in their new roles.
4. Foster Communities of Practice: Encourage collaboration among managers through communities of practice to share knowledge and best practices.
5. Align Leadership: Ensure that all key leaders are on board and consistent in their approach to support Agile transformations.

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About the Global Agile Summit

At the episode's conclusion, Vasco Duarte provides information about the upcoming Global Agile Summit scheduled for May 18-20 in Tallinn, Estonia. The summit promises a diverse lineup of Agile thought leaders and practical sessions focused on various Agile facets, including Agile Business, Agile Product, and Agile Developer tracks.

For more details and to secure your spot, visit globalagilesummit.com.

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This episode serves as a crucial reminder that Agile transformations are comprehensive endeavors requiring attention to all organizational layers, especially middle management. By implementing Chris Sims' strategies, organizations can enhance their Agile practices and achieve sustainable success.

Transcript

[Host]

Have you ever wondered what it really takes to make Agile work well? At the Global Agile Summit, we're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action. Whether you're a leader, a product innovator, a developer, you'll hear practical insights from those who've done it. They'll be telling their own stories from the stage. I'll tell you more about this at the end of this episode. So stay back and listen to the full detailed description of what we have in store for you at the Global Agile Summit. But if you can't wait, you can go right now to globalagilesummit.com and check out our full schedule for now onto the episode. But I'll see you at the end of this episode with more details on the Global Agile Summit. Talk to you soon. Hello, everybody. Welcome to our Wednesday, the Leading Change episode. This week we have with us Chris Sims. Hey Chris, welcome back.

[Chris Sims]

Oh, it's good to be back.

[Host]

So change and change leadership, as I like to call it, is the topic of today. So Chris, let's dive straight into it. What is that change process? And walk us through the process, you know, from beginning to end. And as you go through that, share with us the tools, the tips, the tricks and the techniques you learned back then that you still apply today.

[Chris Sims]

Yeah, yeah. So helping an organization change, which is something I've had the great privilege of getting to do many times now as a kind of coach consultant, that sort of person, and I did get to do it early in my Agile journey as an internal change agent. The things. So let me start with, you know, last two days we, we, we did failure stories. So let me start with a little bit of a, A failure story was helping a really well known company that was like a startup company that had had a great product, made a big splash and gone through a big growth phase and then kind of found like, oh, you know, we used to get things done very quickly and now everything is like going really, really slow. And one of the relatively upper management folks got by in that, oh, we should adopt Scrum. That will, that will help us, you know, become more agile. Right. Get things moving again. And that person was, you know, VP level and they had seen this work before and they were like, yes, we should do this. So they brought us in, we did a bunch of training for the teams and helped the teams get started. And at the team level, people were very excited about this, right? Like, oh yeah, this is going to be better. What we didn't do and didn't happen was pay enough attention to the middle management layer. And this company had a very bureaucratic, very complex middle management layer. So pre transition, right, everybody had a manager and those managers assigned work to them. But then everybody was on multiple projects. Each project had, you know, project and or program managers who also were assigning work to them. And post transition, right now they were on a Scrum team that had a backlog and a product owner who was, you know, ordering the backlog. And that's great, great. Except the managers were still assigning them work and the project and program managers were still assigning them work because the transition itself wasn't fully thought out in terms of, hey, we have to deal with that middle management layer, right? We have to change the way they are working, we have to change their responsibilities, right? Because you can't, number one, I couldn't blame the folks in that middle management layer because they weren't in on the decision to like, hey, we're moving to Scrum, right? They weren't part of that. And then they didn't get, you know, the training and support that the team members got. And then finally the people who were coming to them asking for things also weren't informed on the new way of working. And so those people were still coming to those managers and program managers and project managers and, you know, asking for things. And so those managers were doing the only thing they knew how to do, which was go to their people, right, and tell them to do stuff.

[Host]

So basically the teams have adopted Scrum, but nobody else did. Yeah.

[Chris Sims]

And so, and this is a pattern I've seen since, which I describe as trying to adopt SCRUM in an additive way, meaning we have some way that we work around here and then we're going to lay Scrum on top of it. And it makes things worse, right? Because now people are going to more meetings and there's more sources of work. And so we end up in this dynamic that I've written about several times now called everyone is busy, but delivery is slow. And the solution of course is we really have to work with that middle management layer to help them understand what do we need? What are the new behaviors we need from them? We have.

[Host]

How do we do that? Because, I mean, I imagine the, the conversations that might arise from that. The VP definitely wants the teams to go with Scrum, that one VP that started the change, but maybe not all the other VPs want. Maybe the other VPs are still used to going to certain people and getting things done their way when they want it. Like, it's not an easy challenge to tackle, is it?

[Chris Sims]

It's really hard. And a lot of how to approach it and how successful will it be has to do with the sphere of influence of the leaders initiating the change. And so it's important for a large change initiative to be successful. That kind of all of the key leaders are on board, or at the very least, the leaders who are initiating guiding the change are able to present an interface to the rest of the organization for how they will get their needs met going forward. Right. So, for example, oh, you don't go to a program manager anymore. You go to this product owner person. Right? This is how you get your needs met. And it's important then that those people in the middle are given guidance and support to redirect those folks who are coming to them. And that's great, so long as they don't report to those folks. Right. And that's where the sphere of influence becomes really important. Because if my manager is not on board with the change and my manager is coming to me demanding things, what am I going to do? Right. I'm going to use whatever tools available to me to make my manager happy.

[Host]

One of the things that I've experienced with is that Scrum can bring a lot of uncertainty and confusion to that middle management. So it's not necessarily only that they don't yet know how to act in an environment where Scrum is the norm, but it might also be that they genuinely aren't aware of what their role is anymore.

[Chris Sims]

Right.

[Host]

Like, it's not just about telling them, hey, here's how you get work into the backlog. That's a very practical question that needs to be answered. But it might also be about, okay, but, you know, how important am I now? I used to, you know, identify with this role that I had, and the role had certain responsibilities and power, and now Scrum came and took it away.

[Chris Sims]

Yeah, and this is something I've learned over the years. I'm currently actively involved in two large organizations that are going through transitions. One's. One's about a year in, so we're doing fine tuning, and the other one is at the precipice. We're just like doing the planning for their big transition. And so part of doing this well is essentially rewriting the job descriptions of the managers. Right? Changing their okrs or whatever, you know, whatever approach is used to give them guidance so that they really understand a number one, they are still vitally important. Right. People want to Be important. And it turns out they really are. Right? And number two, want them to understand what we're counting on them for. So line managers, for example, we typically really want them to move more into coaching and mentoring. Right. How do you develop the people that report to you? Very frequently we reorg things so that the teams are cross functional, so they have people with different skills, but each person reports to a manager who is very strong in that skill that they have and that positions that manager actually to be a really great person to anchor like a community of practice, a guild, whatever you want to call it. But it's a way of people who work in the same area to coordinate that work even though they're on different teams. And so we're looking for managers to be very active in coordinating how the work is done and the quality of the work and tools and standards and all of that. But not assigning work. Right. And that's an important subtle thing where the managers become more about the quality of the work and the capabilities of the people and less about what work is happening. That's getting determined at the team level.

[Host]

And that leads to of course, the other, call it dimension of the middle management, which this project dimension, right? Program managers, project managers who are also now in the same situation, like, well, what is my new role? If there are no projects because we're doing continuous development and continuous delivery, then what do I do? Do you have some tips to share with us regarding specifically that kind of roles?

[Chris Sims]

So I have found that those kind of folks tend to migrate to one of three places. Some of them are very people, process, communication oriented, with some coaching guidance, perhaps a little bit of training, they often can make great Scrum masters, right? The skill sets are very similar, but the behaviors are very different between say a great project manager and a great Scrum master. So you know, with some coaching and guidance about like, hey, how we want you to use your skills differently, that's one aspect where I've seen folks like that become really amazing Scrum Masters for folks who are more about the outcome, right? They're driving towards a goal, that's what excites them. Becoming a product owner might be a really great option, right? Where it's all about what should we be building and communicating with the stakeholders and making prioritization decisions and all of that. And then finally at big organizations, I found there's still usually work for people as program managers or even project managers because projects might, you know, span multiple types of development, multiple areas of the organization. And so there is still some of that work to do. The interface is different though. Instead of trying to manage individuals and tasks, they're working with teams and backlogs and product owners. So the interface that they are connecting with the organization, or at least with the work part of the organization changes. But still that that kind of coordinating and seeing the bigger picture and all of that, you know, we still need that, especially with projects that have manufacturing and logistics and all of those sorts of concerns.

[Host]

Yeah, absolutely. That's a great point and great tips because change does affect everyone in the organization and we need to have clear paths for everyone. Otherwise we'll get resistance, conflict and eventually failure. Thank you for sharing that, Chris.

[Chris Sims]

My pleasure.

[Host]

Hey friend, thank you for staying here is all you need to know about the Global Agile Summit if you've ever suffered or know people who are suffering from Agile fatigue, this event is for you. Agile fatigue is that feeling that settles in when we can't really see a light at the end of the tunnel. We get discouraged, especially when conversations revolve around the same old frameworks, the same old buzzwords and theories. We don't feel that energy anymore. Well, the Global Agile Summit is a different kind of event. We're bringing you real life first person stories of agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action and transform the way you work. The Global Agile Summit will happen In Tallinn, Estonia, May 18th. That's the workshop day. Then 19th and 20th the conference day. And Tallin, Estonia is one of the most innovative tech hubs in Europe. The Global Agile Summit is hosted together with Latitude 59, which is kind of a citywide celebration of software startups and groundbreaking ideas. And we'll have a shared ticket for you to attend those events as well. So who will be speaking? Well, we've got an incredible lineup of thought leadership in software and agile. For example, Clinton Keith, the person who wrote literally wrote the book on game development with Scrum and is busy bringing Agile to the world of game development. You must check his session. The very famous and well known Jurgen Apello, author of Management 3.0, will be talking and exploring about AI's impact on leadership. We also have Goiko Atsic, who's taking an unconventional look at product growth with his Lizard Optimization keynote. Other speakers include, for example, Sig Sven Dietz, who's challenging everything we know about software development by ditching, literally ditching contracts and estimates. Can you imagine his teams deliver software before their competitors are even done with a contract negotiation? How agile is that? But there's more. We'll cover engineering practices in our developer track with talks on for example AI assisted test driven development, developing products in minutes with a different approach to how we develop, configure, deploy platforms and much more. We also have a product track where we cover cutting edge ideas around product discovery, delighting customers with product delight frameworks. We'll have a talk about that. And we also have an Agile Business track where we will talk about for example Open strategy, a very agile approach to managing organizations and delivering software faster to clients faster than you can even write a contract. Literally. I mean, I already told you about Svendit's story is amazing. It definitely is a must see. I'm sure you'll be inspired and get a lot of ideas for your own software projects and software delivery. Now whether you're a business leader, a product innovator or a developer, you'll definitely find value in our three four focused tracks. That's Agile Business for those working with businesses and organizations, Agile Product for product managers, product owners and innovators and Agile Developer for the builders making Agile work in practice. The coders, the testers, the designers, the producers, the scrum masters, you name it. If you join, you will meet over 200 agile professionals from all over the world. People who just like you, want to grow, want to share and want to learn by challenging the ideas that don't work anymore at the Global Agile Summit, you'll get new connections, fresh ideas and the energy to take your own Agile to the next level. And who knows, maybe even find your next career opportunity. So don't miss out. Check out the full program and grab your ticket [e-mail] I'm really looking forward to seeing you all in Tallinn, Estonia in May. I'll see you there.