Podcast Summary

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
Episode: Organizations as Ecosystems — Understanding Complexity, Innovation, and the Three-Body Problem at Work With Simon Holzapfel
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Simon Holzapfel
Date: November 1, 2025

Episode Overview

This special bonus episode explores how organizations can be better understood as ecosystems, rather than mere collections of individuals or static systems. Simon Holzapfel—educator, coach, and learning innovator—joins host Vasco Duarte to discuss complexity, emergence, systems thinking, and how traditional approaches to management are challenged by the realities of modern knowledge work. The conversation blends stories, practical coaching insights, and references from both science and management, offering Scrum Masters, Agile Coaches, and leaders a fresh lens on teams, innovation, and organizational adaptation.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Defining Ecosystems in Organizations

• Ecosystems vs. Systems ([04:01])
  • Simon prefers “ecosystem” over “system” because it conveys the idea of dynamic, complex, and adaptive interactions among people, not mechanical or linear processes.
  • Quote [04:01]:
    "Complex adaptive systems are complex in nature...adaptive in that they evolve over time. That's different from a static system." — Simon Holzapfel

The Power of Interactions vs. Individuals

• The Limits of Individual Focus ([06:20])

  • Many managers focus on individuals like chess pieces, but the critical dynamics happen in the interactions between people.
  • Quote [06:20]:
    "It's the interactions amongst the team that are so powerful...that's really where the magic comes from." — Simon Holzapfel

• System Behavior is Emergent, Not Defined by Parts ([06:51])

  • You can’t predict system behavior by analyzing parts; results come from the system as a whole.

The Three-Body Problem as a Metaphor for Team Complexity

• Unpredictability in Teams ([07:27], [24:04])

  • With three or more interacting elements, predicting future states becomes nearly impossible, mirroring how teams operate in real organizations.
  • Quote [07:27]:
    "The three body problem in physics describes why we can't do that...you have almost no ability to predict its future state beyond just some of the shortest time series." — Simon Holzapfel

• Visual Metaphor ([24:23])

  • Simon uses three differently colored ties to demonstrate how three-part systems (e.g., R&D, Manufacturing, Sales) interact unpredictably over time, reinforcing that unpredictability is normal.

From Taylorism to Complexity: Rethinking Control in Knowledge Work

• The Pitfalls of Taylorism in Modern Work ([09:18])

  • Old management ideas of predictability, control, and detailed planning don’t work in complex, knowledge-based environments.
  • Quote [09:18]:
    "To try to take a team, decompose it into a bunch of AIs and then one human. That's like Taylorism of a different sort." — Simon Holzapfel

• Planning: Strategic vs. Tactical ([10:26])

  • Simon discusses his journey from strict, minute-by-minute lesson plans as a teacher to facilitating emergent learning—translating this for leaders as shifting tactical control to teams while maintaining strategic direction.

• Emergence: Encouraging Novelty and Innovation ([14:10], [15:15])

  • Emergence is when new, unpredictable properties arise from complex interactions—a core facet of knowledge work and innovation.
  • Quote [14:21]:
    "An emergent Property is a property of a complex adaptive system that is not particularly foreseeable...emergence is what we rely on." — Simon Holzapfel

Innovation Arrives Stochastically

• Innovation Cannot Be Scheduled ([18:38], [19:09])
  • Great ideas often arise in unexpected settings—a sign that innovation is stochastic. Managers should focus on enabling the right environments rather than trying to schedule creativity.
  • Quote [19:09]:
    "By noticing the locations we have our best ideas...we notice the stochasticness of arrival." — Simon Holzapfel
  • Vasco connects this to the study of forests in “Seeing Like the State”—systems that are overly controlled risk collapse.

The Danger of Over-Control and Iatrogenesis

• Unintended Harm Through Intervention ([22:55])
  • Over-control can backfire, undermining resilience and adaptability. Simon introduces the medical term “iatrogenic” for harm caused by well-intentioned intervention.
  • Quote [22:55]:
    "Trying to maybe use fewer words, show more with your hands and body, do less with your mouth...That's very hard for the manager to do." — Simon Holzapfel

Deming, Statistical Thinking, and Systems Focus

• Systems vs. Individuals in Performance ([25:43])

  • Echoing Deming, Simon emphasizes that most variability and results stem from the system, not the individual contributors.

• Helping Analytical Managers Embrace Systems Thinking ([26:22], [28:48])

  • Simon adapts his approach to the manager’s background—using stories, statistics, or humanistic narratives—so they can appreciate non-linear outcomes.
  • Quote [27:34]:
    "If the only thing that they've got in their own mind is analytical chops. That's a brittle, brittle, brittle contribution." — Simon Holzapfel

• Vasco on Statistics vs. Determinism ([28:48])

  • Analytics-minded leaders can struggle when systems don’t have deterministic outcomes; statistical approaches may feel uncomfortable despite their rationality.

Leading Teams in Complex Environments

• Letting Go of Omniscience, Embracing Uncertainty ([30:45])

  • Many managers believe they must be know-it-alls (“Captain America” or “Hulk”), but true leadership comes from creating the conditions for safe experimentation.

• Balancing Planning and Responsiveness ([32:12])

  • The common managerial demand for certainty and hard metrics is at odds with truly innovative, adaptable organizations.

• The Real Job: Improving Systems ([33:51])

  • Managers shouldn’t micromanage people, but instead continuously evaluate and refine systems.

Practical Coaching Approaches

• Personalize the Approach ([26:22], [29:25])

  • Simon starts coaching by understanding each leader’s unique history and comfort zone to lower fear and increase openness to new thinking.

• Small Experiments for Managers ([29:21])

  • Encourage managers to try small behavioral changes: holding back in meetings, listening more, and asking questions instead of making statements.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• "Don't be that manager." ([34:03]) — Vasco, crystallizing the importance of avoiding controlling, micro-managing behaviors.
• "The most basic things we love and care about in terms of connection, they don't arrive on a schedule." ([37:26]) — Simon Holzapfel, on embracing unpredictability.

Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• "Complex adaptive systems are complex in nature and...evolve over time. That's different from a static system." — Simon Holzapfel [04:01]
• "It's the interactions amongst the team that are so powerful in both defining, setting the boundaries and what the team can do..." — Simon Holzapfel [06:20]
• "To try to take a team, decompose it into a bunch of AIs and then one human. That's like Taylorism of a different sort." — Simon Holzapfel [09:18]
• "An emergent Property is a property of a complex adaptive system that is not particularly foreseeable..." — Simon Holzapfel [14:21]
• "Innovation arrives stochastically." — Simon Holzapfel [18:38]
• "Trying to use fewer words, show more...do less with your mouth...That's very hard for the manager to do." — Simon Holzapfel [22:55]
• "Don't be that manager." — Vasco Duarte [34:03]
• "The most basic things we love and care about...don't arrive on a schedule." — Simon Holzapfel [37:26]

Resources & Further Reading ([34:31])

• Book: The Origin of Wealth by Eric Beinhocker — recommended as an accessible, in-depth introduction to complexity and systems in organizations.
• YouTube: Systems Innovation (YouTube channel) — offers short, highly approachable videos on systems thinking.
• Book: 10 to 25, targeted at understanding people new to the workforce.
• Blog/Newsletter: Equanimist on Substack by Simon Holzapfel.

Actionable Takeaways

• See your team as an ecosystem where interactions, not individuals, drive results.
• Accept and enable emergence—don’t overplan or overcontrol.
• Separate strategic direction (the “why” and “where”) from tactical execution (the “how”)—let teams decide the latter.
• Approach innovation as unpredictable; focus on building an environment conducive to stochastically-arriving breakthroughs.
• When coaching or managing, adapt to your audience—use stories, metaphors, or data, but always personalize.
• Remember: improve systems, not people.

Episode Timeline

| Timestamp | Segment | | --- | --- | | 01:24 | Introduction to Simon Holzapfel and the concept of ecosystem thinking | | 04:01 | Difference between systems and ecosystems in organizations | | 06:20 | The critical role of interactions among team members | | 07:27 | The three-body problem as an analogy for unpredictability in teams | | 09:18 | Dangers of Taylorism and the lure of AI-fueled individualization | | 10:26 | Simon’s journey: from teacher to adaptive leadership and planning | | 14:10 | Emergence and its importance in complexity | | 18:38 | Why innovation can't be planned — stochastic emergence | | 22:55 | Over-control, iatrogenic harm, and naturalness in leadership | | 24:23 | Using the three-tie metaphor for explaining systems in business | | 25:43 | Deming’s system focus: productivity is mostly about the system | | 32:12 | Balancing plan-driven and innovative cultures; leadership limits | | 34:31 | Recommended books and channels for further learning | | 37:26 | Embracing unpredictability in human connection |

Recommended Next Steps

• Subscribe to Equanimist on Substack for more systems and complexity insights.
• Explore Systems Innovation on YouTube for an approachable introduction to systems thinking.
• Reflect on your own team: Are you focusing on interactions, or just managing individuals?
• Try Simon’s coaching experiments in your own leadership—hold your tongue, ask more questions, and monitor how emergence unfolds in your team.