Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast – Agile Storytelling from the Trenches
Episode: Problems vs. Solutions: The Great Product Owner Distinction | Guest: Bernie Maloney
Host: Vasco Duarte
Date: September 12, 2025
Main Theme:
Exploring the pivotal distinction between product owners who drive teams with solutions versus those who lead by defining problems worth solving. The episode exposes common anti-patterns in product ownership and highlights exemplary approaches rooted in business and delivery agility.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Common Product Owner Anti-Patterns

Timestamp: 01:43 - 06:37

• Misunderstanding the Role:
  Bernie points out that organizations often misinterpret the product owner role, defaulting to a "backlog jockey" mindset. The PO is seen as just a manager of tasks and solutions rather than someone with vision and product leadership.

  "Too many organizations... use a product owner as a backlog jockey."
  — Bernie Maloney (02:00)

• Solution-Driven Backlogs:
  Many teams are overwhelmed by an endless list of "things to build," with no linkage to product goals. This leads to over-constrained backlogs and unrealistic sprint expectations.

  "It just becomes a task list. And so when something comes up, how does this fit with our product goal? If it doesn’t fit with the product goal, great, it should move someplace else."
  — Bernie Maloney (03:27)

• Problem with Saying Yes:
  POs who fail to say "no" lack alignment with strategic vision. Bernie shares techniques for politely declining requests that don't fit the product goal, directing listeners to his YouTube video on "Four Polite Ways of Saying No."

• Positional Authority Issues:
  When managers act as product owners, their hierarchy can stifle team dynamics, manifesting as overbearing behavior in critical ceremonies like the daily scrum. Bernie recounts a personal coaching moment where he helped a senior director recognize and adjust their behavior to empower the team.

  "So this is a situation of using the situation to help the team and to help the product owner... their heart was in the right place."
  — Bernie Maloney (05:25)

2. What Makes an Amazing Product Owner?

Timestamp: 06:54 - 13:45

• Problem-Finding as Primary:
  The hallmark of a great PO is empowering teams by presenting problems, not pre-baked solutions. Bernie references a TiVo project, where leadership defined the challenge—create new IP—as opposed to prescribing how to achieve it.

  "Instead of telling the teams, 'go build this,' gave them a problem to solve... That’s better than what most product owners do, which is 'here’s solutions to build'."
  — Bernie Maloney (07:14)

• Three Dimensions of Agility:

  1. Delivery Agility: Outputs and faster delivery.
  2. Outcome Agility: Addressing real customer problems.
  3. Strategic Agility: Determining which problems are worth solving.

  "Really the third dimension... is about what's a problem worth solving. This is the way startups... actually work, and this is the way high performing teams need to work."
  — Bernie Maloney (08:12)

• Mobius Loop & Discovery:
  Drawing from Gabby Benefield’s Mobius loop, Bernie highlights organizations’ tendency to focus only on the "build–measure–learn" cycle, neglecting discovery. Great POs emphasize customer discovery to reduce uncertainty before solution building.

• Managing Uncertainty:
  Good POs manage uncertainty holistically—not just resolving technical unknowns (spikes), but also questioning the worth of the problem itself.

3. Why Do Organizations Still Default to Solution-First Thinking?

Timestamp: 11:01 - 13:45

• Industrial/Schooling Legacy:
  Bernie attributes this mindset to "industrial era" education systems and legacy organizational cultures, which prioritize "finding the right answer" over exploring the right question.

  "The whole Prussian system of education... has an industrial mindset to the way a lot of education is going about. Just find the right answer. That’s what we're graded on, school, find the right answer..."
  — Bernie Maloney (11:13)

• Corporate Culture as a Bottleneck:
  The age of a company’s culture, not its people or its founding, determines agility. Startups and modern cloud-native companies are more likely to experiment and focus on problem discovery, while older organizations prefer predictable efficiency.

  "Most organizational cultures were formed before the Internet... when things move slowly and you could plan and predict them."
  — Bernie Maloney (11:34)

• Startups vs. Established Companies:
  Referencing Steve Blank, Bernie notes startups are better positioned to search for scalable problems, while large organizations excel at exploiting known solutions.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Saying No and Product Goals

  “With product owners, make sure you have a product goal. If you don’t have a product goal, it just becomes a task list.”
  — Bernie Maloney (03:08)

• On Power Dynamics in Scrum Events

  “Because that positional authority of their manager, the team just started waiting for direction.”
  — Bernie Maloney (05:00)

• On Agility Dimensions

  “Most organizations only use Agile for delivery agility, they’re only focused on outputs... Really the third dimension... is about what's a problem worth solving.”
  — Bernie Maloney (07:35, 08:12)

• On Organizational Agility

  “It’s not age of people, it’s not age of organization, it’s age of culture.”
  — Bernie Maloney (12:00)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |---------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:43 | Discussion of worst product owner anti-patterns | | 03:08 | Importance of having a product goal and politely saying no | | 05:00 | The risk of positional authority stifling team autonomy (PO as manager) | | 06:54 | What makes a great product owner: TiVo story and defining problems instead of solutions | | 08:12 | Three dimensions of agility: Output, Outcome, and Strategic (problem worth solving) | | 09:40 | Mobius loop model: build–measure–learn vs. discovery | | 11:01 | Why organizations default to solutions over problems: educational & cultural legacies | | 12:00 | Not age, but "age of culture" determines agility mindset | | 13:45 | Large organization vs. startup mindsets regarding experimentation & scaling |

Further Resources & References

• Powered by Teams YouTube Channel: Tips and techniques for product owners (Four Polite Ways of Saying No)
• Mobius Loop by Gabby Benefield: Framework for problem discovery and product delivery
• Steve Blank: Startup methodology and problem finding
• Business Agility Institute: For business agility and agile leadership concepts

Where to Find Bernie Maloney

Timestamp: 14:51

• poweredbyteams.com
• LinkedIn: Bernie Maloney
• YouTube Channel: Powered by Teams

Bernie encourages listeners to follow rather than connect directly on LinkedIn until they’ve had some interaction.

“Leadership is probably the key to what’s going on... I want to start a podcast series... inspired by doing this.”
— Bernie Maloney (15:11)

Overall Tone & Takeaway

The conversation is pragmatic, thoughtful, and candid, focused on practical coaching insights while challenging organizational inertia. Both host and guest lean into storytelling, relatability, and the lived complexities of Agile work. Listeners walk away with a clear understanding that the highest impact product owners elevate teams by clarifying problems worth solving, not just managing backlogs of predetermined solutions.