Product Owner Patterns – The Great and the Bad | Ellen Grove

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches

Episode: Product Owner Patterns – The Great and the Bad | Ellen Grove
Host: Vasco Duarte, Agile Coach, Certified Scrum Master, Certified Product Owner
Guest: Ellen Grove, Agile Practitioner and Coach
Release Date: January 10, 2025

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Introduction and Exciting Announcements

Vasco Duarte opens the episode with enthusiastic news about the upcoming Global Agile Summit set to take place from May 18th to 20th, 2025, in Tallinn, Estonia. He emphasizes that the summit will focus on real-life Agile practices, featuring practitioners from diverse backgrounds such as product leaders, engineering experts, and business visionaries. Vasco highlights the early bird ticket offer at 25% of the final price, encouraging listeners to secure their spots early due to the limited availability tied to the announcement of the summit agenda.

Notable Quote:

"This isn't just another conference. It's a chance to connect with the people that are shaping the future of Agile." – Vasco Duarte [00:04]

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Exploring Product Owner Anti-Patterns

Transitioning into the core of the episode, Vasco introduces the topic of Product Owner (PO) Patterns, specifically focusing on the negative aspects or anti-patterns that can hinder Agile teams. He poses a critical question to Ellen Grove about the most detrimental PO anti-pattern she has encountered.

Ellen responds by describing scenarios where the PO is either absent or lacks decision-making authority. She recounts an instance where the designated PO was merely a conduit for information from the CEO, leading to significant delays and inefficiencies. This situation exemplifies how the absence of an empowered PO can cripple a team's ability to function effectively.

Notable Quote:

"Teams aren't going to be successful if they don't have immediate access to a product owner who's both informed and able to make decisions." – Ellen Grove [03:06]

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The Necessity of an Empowered and Informed Product Owner

Vasco acknowledges Ellen's insights, underscoring the importance of having a PO who is both informed and empowered to make critical decisions. He elaborates that as Scrum Masters, recognizing the capability and decisiveness of the PO is essential for facilitating team success. If the PO lacks information or authority, it's the Scrum Master's role to support and develop these aspects within the PO.

Ellen expands on this by highlighting a common challenge in many organizations: the lack of clear product ownership. She notes that even successful enterprises often struggle with viewing their work as products, which undermines the PO's ability to steer the team effectively. Ellen emphasizes that without a clear understanding of customer needs and product vision, Agile teams are left without direction, leading to impaired delivery and value creation.

Notable Quote:

"Setting product ownership up for success is critical...they don't think about their work as products. They don't have that sense of, oh, we actually consciously need to think about what our customers want." – Ellen Grove [05:27]

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Organizational Challenges and the Language of Product Ownership

The conversation delves into the linguistic barriers that impede effective product ownership. Ellen points out that many organizations default to terms like "projects" and "releases" instead of embracing the concept of "products". This linguistic shift is fundamental, as it aligns the organization's mindset with Agile principles that prioritize continuous value delivery and customer-centric product development.

She mentions that industries such as government and finance often resist this terminology, further complicating the establishment of effective product ownership. This resistance stems from entrenched traditions that focus more on rigid deliverables rather than adaptable, value-driven products.

Notable Quote:

"The whole product concept isn't even part of the vocabulary." – Ellen Grove [07:23]

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Exemplary Product Owner Practices

Shifting focus to positive examples, Vasco asks Ellen to share characteristics of outstanding Product Owners. Ellen recounts her experience with a PO at a progressive bank who excelled in understanding customer needs and maintaining clear product vision. This PO not only kept regular contact with stakeholders and customers but also actively involved the development team in customer interactions, such as user interviews and research sessions.

By inviting the team to engage directly with customers, the PO fostered a shared understanding and collective ownership of the product, enhancing the team's ability to make informed decisions. Ellen underscores that this approach transforms the PO from a mere information conduit to a facilitator of team-wide engagement with customer insights.

Notable Quote:

"He made a point of making opportunities available to people on the development team to go along with him and get firsthand experience of what the customer's experiences and desires were." – Ellen Grove [09:13]

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Shared Responsibility and Team Engagement

Vasco builds on Ellen's example by highlighting the importance of shared responsibility in product ownership. He appreciates how the exemplary PO viewed product ownership as a collective responsibility, not solely resting on one individual. This mindset empowers the entire team to contribute to product vision and customer understanding, thereby amplifying innovation and problem-solving capabilities.

Ellen agrees, reinforcing that successful Scrum depends on creating a collective shared understanding between business stakeholders and development teams. She emphasizes that this shared understanding requires a common vocabulary, shared experiences, and direct engagement with the problem space. By diffusing knowledge and involving the team in customer interactions, the PO ensures that the entire team is aligned and equipped to make decisions that genuinely address customer needs.

Notable Quote:

"Product owners who understand product ownership as it's not just something that lives in one person's head... That's how you need to think about the role." – Ellen Grove [12:33]

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Conclusion and Connecting with Ellen Grove

As the episode nears its end, Vasco invites listeners to connect with Ellen Grove to further engage with her insights and expertise. Ellen provides her contact information, encouraging listeners to reach out via LinkedIn and explore her presentations available online. She expresses her openness to conversations and collaborations within the Agile community.

Vasco wraps up by thanking Ellen for her valuable contributions and reiterates the importance of sharing and rating the podcast to support the Scrum Master community.

Notable Quote:

"I'm always happy to connect to people. I'm happy to talk." – Ellen Grove [14:52]

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Key Takeaways

• Empowered Product Owners: Critical for Agile team success; must be informed and capable of making timely decisions.
• Shared Responsibility: Product ownership should be a collective endeavor, involving the entire team in understanding and addressing customer needs.
• Organizational Shift: Embracing product-oriented language and mindset is essential for effective Agile implementation.
• Team Engagement: Encouraging direct interaction between team members and customers enhances product relevance and team cohesion.

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Resources and Connections

• Global Agile Summit: globalagilesummit.com
• Connect with Ellen Grove: LinkedIn Profile (Note: Replace with actual link)
• Podcast Rating: Available on Stitcher and iTunes (Note: Replace with actual links)

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Remember: Sharing is caring. If you found this episode valuable, please rate and share the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast to support the Agile community.

Transcript

[Vasco Duarte]

Hey, how are you doing? I'm Vasco Duarte, your host on the Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. And I've got some exciting news. So right now, as I record this, I'm holding in my hand the signed contract for our very first Global Agile Summit. We're all in and I couldn't wait to share this news with you. So mark your calendars. May 18th, 20th of 2025 in Tallinn, Estonia. We're gonna have a transformative experience. We're putting together an event that is all about real life Agile. It's not theory or buzzwords. It's practitioners sharing what's working, what's making an impact, and how they've overcome challenges that you too will have to face, or maybe even facing. Right now, we're bringing together the best stories in Agile. From product leaders to engineering wizards to business visionaries, these will be stories that will inspire you to action. This isn't just another conference. It's a chance to connect with the people that are shaping the future of Agile. And here's the best part. Right now, we're in our super early bird phase. And that means you can grab tickets at just 25% of the final price. Look, that's not just half off, it's half off of the half off. It's an incredible deal for our dedicated community members, just like you listening to this right now. So at the summit, day one will be all about hands on workshops. And days two and three, we'll dive into leadership, product strategy, coding, testing, and everything that makes Agile thrive in organizations. Right now remember, these are all first person, real life stories. Now whether you're a leader, a developer, or part of a consulting company, this event is built to take your Agile game to the next level. So don't wait. Go to globalagilesummit.com and grab your ticket. Today, let's all make 2025 the year agile truly transforms your teams, your business and our industry. I'll see you all in Tallinn. And Remember, go to globalagilesummit.com and get your super early bird ticket right now. It only be available until the agenda is announced, so don't wait. Grab it right now. Right now that that's out of the way, onto the episode. Hello, everybody. Welcome to our Friday TGIF episode, this week with Alan Grove. Hey, Alan, welcome back.

[Alan Grove]

Hey Vasco, lovely to be talking with you again.

[Vasco Duarte]

Likewise, likewise. And of course, today is Product owner day here on the podcast. So we'll talk about great product owners in a minute. But first, Ellen, share with us what might have been potentially the worst product owner anti pattern you've witnessed in your career?

[Alan Grove]

The worst product owner anti pattern that I've seen, and I've seen this a few times, a distressing number of times actually is when the product owner is not the person who's actually in the room. There might be somebody in the room who has the title product owner, but they are not actually allowed to make important decisions, they're not allowed to make trade offs. They are just a conduit for information coming from somewhere else. I can recall a team that I worked with where great team, lovely people had a product owner in the room and we discovered that the actual real product owner for this product was the CEO of the organization that we were working for. And so the PO in the room, every time the team asked them something about, hey, how would you like us to do this? Is this okay? We thought about doing this, their answer was kind of, I gotta go check, you know, I'll let you know. And the. That's not what a po. Teams aren't going to be successful if they don't have immediate access to a product owner who's both informed and able to make decisions. Because if everything is a process of, oh, I've got to take your question somewhere else and think about it and talk to some people and I'll get back to you. For almost every decision, the team isn't going to go anywhere very quickly.

[Vasco Duarte]

I like that how you phrase it. The team needs access to someone who is informed and is able to make decisions. And sometimes that is the PO and sometimes that could be somebody else together with the poor. Right. Like could be a customer representative or something like that. But if we keep that in mind, somebody who's informed and is able to make decisions, then it's so much easier for us as Scrum Masters to do our job because then we can look at the product owner and see, is the product owner informed? Are they able to make decisions? And if yes, then all is fine. If not, then we need to help the product owner because it might be that they don't have enough information or they've, you know, they're new and need to grow into the position, whatever the reason is. Right. We need to give them that ability to be informed and able to make decisions.

[Alan Grove]

Yeah, it's really critical and it's an important part of the Scrum Master role because a lot of Scrum Masters, especially when they're new to it, focus on, well, my job is to support the team in their process and if you go read the Scrum Guide, it's like, no, no, you got at least three responsibilities to the team, to the PO and to the organization at large. And so thinking about how do support the Scrum Master. Sorry, how do I support the product owner in their role? Is a critical responsibility of being a Scrum Master. And I think one of the things that sort of the diffusion of Scrum Agile thinking, Scrum in particular through the world, has really surfaced organizationally is a lot of organizations struggle with product ownership in a very big way. I've worked with countless organizations as a Scrum Master where it's like, hey, we're going to go in, we're going to set the teams up to deliver more effectively. And one of the impediments that we surface right away is we can deliver, but there is an organizational deficit in having clarity around what we should deliver and having that understanding of what customers really need. And setting product ownership, product owners up for success is critical to that. And I don't think a lot of organizations aren't set up to do that because they actually, even very successful organizations, especially when you're talking about enterprises and things, not so much actual real product companies, but they don't think about their work as products. They don't have that sense of, oh, we actually consciously need to think about what of our customers want, how do we meet those needs, how do we shorten the line of feedback between people who are using whatever we're building and the team that's going to build it. This is so radical that it causes all kinds of issues.

[Vasco Duarte]

Yeah, I mean, and it starts with the language. Right. Because in many organizations, they don't talk about projects, they talk about releases. Sorry, they don't talk about products, they talk about releases and projects. Right. So the whole product concept isn't even part of the vocabulary.

[Alan Grove]

Yeah, it's very foreign to them. And I'm certainly seeing that a lot. I coach a lot in government at the moment. And the idea of those services are products that there are customers out there using is very novel. And it's not just government, by the way. Lots of big enterprises, especially ones where a lot of money comes in and they don't think about their services, products. And yes, I'm looking at you, financial industry. Right. They don't think about what's the problem we're solving for the customer. And so when you bring Scrum into it and go, hey, we need to understand that we're doing the right things for the customer, that's part of what we're trying to build into the DNA of how we work. Oh, that's, that's kind of crazy. And so that's. That, you know, that's, that's kind of, I'm going to say that's a whole bunch of the po ant patterns that we're talking about in this episode. But it makes it very difficult to have effective product ownership for the team because it makes it very difficult to have those informed decision makers who are working closely with the team to help guide their work.

[Vasco Duarte]

Now, of course, there aren't only bad product owners or product owner anti patterns, there are also some amazing product owners who exhibit quite an in depth understanding of the role and why it matters. So share with us one of those. Potentially, Ellen, the best product owner owner you've ever worked with. How did they work?

[Alan Grove]

So despite the fact that I just threw financial companies under the bus, actually some of the best product owners I've worked with, one in particular was at, I'm going to say, one of the newer banks where I've worked as a Scrum master and a coach. I was actually Scrum master in this situation where we had a product owner who was very well versed in what the customer needs were. He was clear about the product that we were building because this particular bank did have some product thinking built into what they did. So he knew what his product was. He was out in regular contact with stakeholders and customers and was bringing that picture to the team, was still able to make time to be available to the team to answer that question and share the knowledge. And what was most important was brought the team with him. Sometimes when he went out and talked with people, when there were user interviews happening, when there was research, let's actually go and talk to people who are going to use this thing that we're building. He made a point of making opportunities available to people on the development team to go along with him and get firsthand experience of what the customer's experiences and desires and wishes was. And I wish that wasn't as rare as it's been in the teams that I've worked with, because often pos end up being just one link in that chain of information. And they focus about how do I bring that information to the team most effectively as opposed to how do I take the team to the information that they need to make good implementation decisions. And so thinking about it that way, that's one of the things that makes a really great po. How do I get the team out of their box, out of the building, so to speak. To go and see what's really going on. Because that way I'm not the only person bringing them the information. They have direct firsthand experience that they can use to inform their decision making about what the best way to solve the cuff customer's problem is. Because they've seen the customer, they've actually seen the customer. And I wish that wasn't as rare as it's been.

[Vasco Duarte]

Well, one of the things that I really like about this is this, or at least how I understood it from what you explained, is that the product owner understood that product ownership was not only his or hers, it was also the team's responsibility. Right, like this wanting to bring the team into the conversation with the customers and users. Right. Is one example of that. And I find that that is often missing. And when it's present, it is an amplifier of the potential that the product owner already naturally brings in. Because the team can bring the technical innovation, they can widen the thinking of the product owner and help them realize different aspects, different approaches to solving problems that they would not be able to do on their own.

[Alan Grove]

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think this is critical to success in Scrum. Right. I think when you come from an organization that has very, I'm going to say, roles and responsibilities kind of handoff mindset, you know, people think, oh, as a product owner, I do this, I'm the custodian of this sort of information. My job is to make sure I get that information to the team. The team is the custodian of all of the decisions about how do we do the thing. And I just need to make sure they know enough to do the right thing as opposed to thinking about it. You know, one of the Agile principles is about the development team and the business working together every day. And the reason for that is to reduce that handoff to really set in a, to really set the team up with the information they need to make the right decisions. One of the things that we're trying to do when we're working in Scrum is to create that collective shared understanding between the people who understand the business part of the problem, the customers as represented by the product owner, other stakeholders who have other needs about this is why we're trying to do the thing that we're doing, trying to do and what a successful outcome looks like and then the development team who brings and this is the how we can solve that problem. But in order to do that well, they need to have a shared understanding, they need to have shared vocabulary, they need to a little bit of shared experience of the problem in order to do that really effectively. And so product owners who, as you said, I love how you put it about understand product ownership as it's not just something that lives in one person's head. It's a capability that needs to extend through the team. But there's this one person who. That's their focus and their goal is to help diffuse that through the team. That's how you need to think about the role. Same with being a Scrum Master, right? Scrum Master brings. I'm thinking about the problem from a certain point of view, but I'm not the only person who does that. I'm trying to diffuse it through the team. That's what makes Scrum Master successful. That's what makes product owners successful.

[Vasco Duarte]

Beautifully said, Ellen. We're getting close to the end, but if people want to know more about you and the work that you're doing, where should they go?

[Alan Grove]

Well, you can always connect to me on LinkedIn. I'm happy to connect to people. I'm happy, happy to talk. I'm going to say my web presence is kind of a bit of a shambles at the moment, but if you Google my name, you'll find some of the presentations that I've done at conferences around the world. I like to, you know, there's. I'm just trying to think if my presentation about humble inquiry is online somewhere. I'm not sure that it is, but I'm always. I actually don't keep track of which of my talks get recorded. But anyhow, if you Google my name in Agile, you'll find some of the things that I have talked about online at various conferences. And as I said, connect to me via LinkedIn. And I'm always happy to converse.

[Vasco Duarte]

Absolutely. And why not Everybody send out a note with a question and connect with Ellen on LinkedIn. That's a great way to make a connection. Ellen, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for being here and sharing all of that knowledge and experience with our community.

[Alan Grove]

Oh, thank you. It has been absolutely delightful talking to you. I've had a lot of fun.

[Vasco Duarte]

We really hope you liked our show. And if you did, why not rate this podcast on Stitcher or itunes, share this podcast and let other Scrum Masters know about this valuable resource for their work. Remember that sharing is caring.