Scrum Masters, Your Team Needs to Know Which Hat You're Wearing | Carmen Jurado

Summary

Episode Summary: "Scrum Masters, Your Team Needs to Know Which Hat You're Wearing" featuring Carmen Jurado

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
Host: Vasco Duarte, Agile Coach, Certified Scrum Master, Certified Product Owner
Guest: Carmen Guerra Jurado, Agile Storyteller, Agile Coach, Business Agility Trainer
Release Date: April 28, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte interviews Carmen Guerra Jurado, an esteemed Agile storyteller and coach from the Netherlands. Titled "Scrum Masters, Your Team Needs to Know Which Hat You're Wearing," the episode delves into the complexities Scrum Masters face when juggling multiple roles within a team and the critical importance of role clarity for fostering an effective Agile environment.

Guest Introduction

Carmen Guerra Jurado is renowned for her dynamic approach to Agile coaching, her creative design of gamified retrospectives, and her active involvement in the nonprofit organization Women in Agile. With multiple speaking engagements at Agile conferences, Carmen has established herself as a passionate advocate for psychological safety and effective team dynamics within Agile frameworks.

Journey to Becoming a Scrum Master

Carmen shares her unexpected entry into the Agile world. In spring 2016, while working as a senior back-office employee at one of the Netherlands' largest energy suppliers, Eco, the company was undergoing an Agile transformation. Despite having no prior knowledge of Agile or Scrum, Carmen was intrigued by a Scrum Master job description that resonated with skills she was already utilizing, such as facilitating workshops and building instructional materials for colleagues.

Notable Quote:

"I saw a couple of things in the description I was interested in... that unique approach kind of distinguished my application from other people's."
— Carmen Guerra Jurado [02:30]

Her unconventional application, which included a video featuring endorsements from colleagues, secured her the Scrum Master position. Carmen's commitment to learning was evident as she immersed herself in Scrum practices, earning her PSM1 certification and voraciously consuming books, blogs, and participating in meetups. This newfound passion redirected her career trajectory towards Agile coaching.

Challenging Moment: Wearing Multiple Hats

One of the most formative experiences Carmen discusses involved her dual role as both Scrum Master and Compliance Officer within her team. After approximately a year in her Scrum Master role, she took on additional compliance-related responsibilities. During a retrospective meeting, Carmen made comments intended from both perspectives, leading to confusion among team members about the context and intent behind her feedback.

Notable Quote:

"They felt that the retro was uncomfortable and also really confusing to them because it was unclear whether the comments that I made... were in the capacity of a Scrum Master or as a Compliance Officer."
— Carmen Guerra Jurado [06:48]

This situation underscored two crucial lessons for Carmen:

1. Psychological Safety: The incident demonstrated that her team felt secure enough to openly address discomfort, highlighting the importance of creating a trusting and open environment.

2. Role Clarity: Managing multiple roles without clear boundaries can lead to misunderstandings and diminished team effectiveness. Carmen realized the necessity of explicitly stating which role she was embodying when providing feedback or making decisions.

Insights and Lessons Learned

Carmen emphasizes the significance of clear role communication in Agile teams. When team members or Scrum Masters wear multiple hats, it can blur the lines of responsibility and authority, leading to confusion and potential conflicts. To mitigate this, Carmen adopted the practice of verbally distinguishing her roles during meetings, such as announcing, "I am now putting on my Compliance Officer hat," before making relevant comments. This approach not only clarifies her perspective but also sets a standard for role management within the team.

Notable Quote:

"Role difference... it's really that when you have a line manager who's also a developer, or a Scrum Master who's also a Product Owner, we need to be very clear which role am I taking when I'm making that statement."
— Carmen Guerra Jurado [10:06]

Additionally, Carmen highlights the broader impact of role ambiguity on stakeholder interactions. She notes that without clear role definitions, stakeholders may inadvertently breach boundaries, complicating feedback processes and decision-making.

Conclusion

Carmen Guerra Jurado's story serves as a powerful reminder of the delicate balance Scrum Masters must maintain when navigating multiple roles. Clear communication and defined boundaries are essential for maintaining team trust, ensuring effective collaboration, and upholding the integrity of Agile practices. Her experience underscores the value of psychological safety and the proactive measures needed to sustain it within Agile teams.

Notable Quote:

"It's something that I really appreciate the team giving me that feedback at the moment. A really uncomfortable moment because I got this feedback, but it's a formative moment as well."
— Carmen Guerra Jurado [11:00]

Vasco Duarte skillfully steers the conversation, extracting valuable lessons that listeners can apply to their own Agile practices. This episode is a must-listen for Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches seeking to enhance their role clarity and foster a more transparent and trusting team environment.

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This detailed summary captures the essence of Carmen Jurado's insightful conversation on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, highlighting key discussions, lessons learned, and actionable insights for Agile practitioners.

Transcript

[Vasco]

Have you ever wondered what it really takes to make Agile work well? At the Global Agile Summit, we're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action. Whether you're a leader, a product innovator, a developer, you'll hear practical insights from those who've done it. They'll be telling their own stories from the stage. I'll tell you more about this at the end of this episode. So stay back and listen to the full detailed description of what we have in store for you at the Global Agile Summit. But if you can't wait, you can go right now to globalagilesummit.com and check out our full schedule for now onto the episode. But I'll see you at the end of this episode with more details on the Global Agile Summit. Talk to you soon. Hello, everybody.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Welcome to one more week of the Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. And this week, joining us from the Netherlands is Carmen Guerra Jurado. Hey Carmen, welcome to the show.

Hi Vasco. Thank you for having me.

Absolutely. So Carmen describes herself as an Agile storyteller and has spoken at multiple Agile conferences. Differences covering topics such as psychological safety and imposter syndrome. Known for her enthusiasm and creativity. And I'm sure you guys will notice that right away as we start our conversation here. Carmen enjoys designing her own gamified retrospective. She's an Agile coach and business agility trainer and is also active in a non profit organization titled Women in Agile. So Carmen, that was a short intro. Tell us a little bit more about yourself and how did you end up becoming a Scrum Master?

Yeah, so I think my Agile journey started in, I think it was like the spring of 2016. And at the time I was employed at one of the largest energy suppliers in the Netherlands in Eco, and they were going through or they were undergoing an Agile transformation. And at that time I was a senior back office employee and I was already facilitating workshops and building workshops, writing instructions for my colleagues. So I was basically one of those go to people that you go when you have a question, like a knowledge question. And as part of that Agile transformation processes were being restructured, new teams were being formed. I mean, I don't have to tell you how that goes. But also new positions were being created and I saw the job description for a Scrum Master. I had no idea what Agile was. I'd never heard of it. I didn't know what Scrum was. But the job description intrigued me and I saw a couple of things that I was already doing. I saw a couple of things in the description I was interested in. So having no prior knowledge, I applied for that role. And you have to. You know how it is when you apply for a job, you have to write a motivation letter and everything. But. So I did that. But in addition to that, I also included a video that featured several of my colleagues who kind of like expressed why they believed I would be suitable for that role. Yeah. And I thought, you know, I don't know if that was the reason, but I do feel that that unique approach kind of distinguished my application from other people's because it was just a short video, like one minute, but it was. It was the different colleagues that were expressing that, which was very cool. And in the end, I was offered the position, and that kind of marked my career in Agile. So I got the job. I followed the PSM1 course. I started reading all kinds of books and blogs and articles, attending meetups. I was basically like this sponge of information because, again, I had never heard of it before. And the more I read about it, the more I learned about it, the more passionate I grew about it. And for me, it was such an eye opener. I was very much like, why haven't we always been working like this?

That's the same question everybody asks, right? Like, once you're there, you go, like, why did we even try it the other way?

Exactly. But if you don't know any better, then I guess for me, that was the response. So that kind of. That whole thing kind of reshaped my whole career path, basically.

And of course, even though there are a lot worse ways to develop software, that doesn't mean that we always succeed and everything goes as planned, pun intended. When we become Scrum Masters, right? Like, sometimes difficult things happen and we all fail. And today's fail Monday here on the podcast. So we want to explore one of those stories, Carmen. So share that story first. We'll dive into the takeaways and the insights later. But tell us that story of a difficult moment you had as a Scrum Master.

Yeah, so the, the, I think the most formative for me situation, that also is the first one that comes to mind was I was a Scrum Master, I think for maybe a little. Little over a year, so relatively new. And I got the additional responsibility of being Compliancy officer within my team. And it was during a retrospective, and I don't exactly remember how the conversation went because it was a couple of years ago, but we were discussing something Compliancy related During the retro and I had made a few comments and we concluded the retro and something felt off. You know, the vibe was just. The vibe was off. And, you know, me being also relatively new Scrum Master, I didn't comment on it. I still felt like a novice, but I felt that something was off. And after the retro, the team actually asked me to join them in this really small meeting space. And it has been a couple of years, but I distinctly remember the look and feel of that small space and where I was standing and where they were standing. It's really funny how those things, like, dig into your memory.

Yeah, they definitely get imprinted in our memory, those.

Yeah, right.

Like, moments.

I don't remember what I ate yesterday, but that I specifically remember. But yeah, so they. They asked me to join them in this. In this meeting space and basically they told me that they felt that the retro was uncomfortable and also really confusing to them. And that was mainly because it was unclear whether the comments that I made during the retro, if I made them in the capacity of a Scrum Master or as a Compliancy officer. Because I had the two roles, right. I had the two hats. And that to me was such a light bulb moment because it kind of highlighted two things for me, the first thing being psychological safety. And it was just an example that I had done something right because the team felt free and safe enough to come to me and share this feedback with me about something I did or a situation I had created. Right. And you mentioned before my intro that one of my talks was about psychological safety, and that was really, for me, the trigger to dive into that whole concept more. But, yeah, so how essential it is to have that safe space, to be able to build this open relationship with your team and encourage them to not only provide feedback to themselves, but also to you as. As a Scrum Master or as a product owner and why it's important. And I think the second part for me, my second eye opener, was how important it is to clearly state what your role is when you're making feedback or giving comments, when you have multiple caps on. Right? And it's so important. So I honestly took up the habit of saying, okay, guys, I am now putting on my Compliancy Officer hat and I'm going to make this comment, or I'm taking off my compliance officer hat and I'm putting on my Scrum Master hat and making a comment. So just emphasize and vocalize that. But not just that, but also involve the team. I might forget to reiterate from which role? I am making a comment, but if the team knows, oh, wait, we are. It's, it's. How do you say it? Like when maybe you're struggling because you have multiple hats or multiple balls in the air, right? Juggling multiple balls. You're a team, so make it a team responsibility. And that's also what something I should have done before that moment was created, right? Like team. This is the first time I have multiple roles. Help me make it more clear for everyone when I'm stating something or we're talking about a certain topic.

So for me, I think the key message that I take, which is something that sometimes gets kind of implicitly accepted as if it is obvious, is really that role difference, right? When you have a line manager who's.

[Vasco]

Also a developer, or a product owner.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Who'S also a tester, or a scrum master who's also a product owner, we need to be very clear, which role am I taking when I'm making that statement that. That is helpful for us as well, because then there's clarity for us in, okay, when am I stepping over the boundary?

[Vasco]

Right?

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Because if we don't explicitly address that, we might be stepping the boundary back and forth and it becomes very confusing and unsettling for the team. And this is especially important in my mind when dealing with stakeholders, right? Because sometimes we are. Often we say, hey, you know, we need to collect feedback from stakeholders, but then they come into the room and they give the feedback. Are they acting as the, the CTO or the head of engineering? Or are they acting as just somebody who's looking out for the customer, whose feedback can be taken into account but.

[Vasco]

Doesn'T need to be followed?

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Definitely, definitely. And overall it just ensures, like a better role management, right, by stating it explains explicitly. But yeah, so that, that for me was. It was a really uncomfortable moment because, you know, I got this feedback from the team, but it was such a formative moment as well. And it's something that I, I really appreciate the team giving me that, that feedback at the moment.

Yeah, absolutely. And a great story to illustrate that importance of having clear roles. Thank you for sharing that carbon.

Yeah, you will.

[Vasco]

Hey, friend, thank you for staying here. Is all you need to know about the Global Agile Summit. If you've ever suffered or know people who are suffering from agile fatigue, this event is for you. Agile fatigue is that feeling that settles in when we can't really see a light at the end of the tunnel. We get discouraged, especially when conversations revolve around the same old frameworks. The same old buzzwords and theories. We don't feel that energy anymore.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Well, the Global Agile Summit is a.

[Vasco]

Different kind of event. We're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action and transform the way you work. The Global Agile Summit will happen In Tallinn, Estonia, May 18th. That's the workshop day. Then 19th and 20th, the conference day. And Tallin, Estonia is one of the most innovative tech hubs in Europe. The Global Agile Summit is hosted together with Latitude 59, which is kind of a citywide celebration of software startups and groundbreaking ideas. And we'll have a shared ticket for you to attend those events as well. So who will be speaking? Well, we've got an incredible lineup of thought leaders in software and agile. For example, Clinton Keith, the person who wrote, literally wrote the book on game development with Scrum and is busy bringing Agile to the world of game development. You must check his session. The very famous and well known Jurgen Apello, author of Management 3.0, will be talking and exploring about AI's impact on leadership. We also have Goiko Adsic, who's taking an unconventional look at product growth with his Lizard Optimization keynote. Other speakers include, for example, Sven Dietz, who's challenging everything we know about software development by ditching, literally ditching contracts and estimates. Can you imagine his teams deliver software before their competitors are even done with the contract negotiations?

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

How agile is that?

[Vasco]

But there's more. We'll cover engineering practices in our developer track with talks on, for example, AI assisted test driven development, developing products in minutes with a different approach to how we develop, configure, deploy platforms, and much more. We also have a product track where we cover cutting edge ideas around product discovery, delighting customers with product delight frameworks. We'll have a talk about that. And we also have an Agile Business track where we will talk about, for example Open strategy, a very agile approach to managing organizations and delivering software faster to clients faster than you can even write a contract, literally. I mean, I already told you about Vendee's story is amazing. It definitely is a must see. I'm sure you'll be inspired and get a lot of ideas for your own software projects and software delivery. Now, whether you're a business leader, a product innovator or a developer, you'll definitely find value in our three focused tracks. That's Agile Business for those working with businesses and organizations, Agile Product for product managers, product owners and innovators, and Agile Developer for the builders making agile work in practice. The coders, the testers, the designers, the producers, the Scrum masters, you name it. If you join, you will meet over 200 agile professionals from all over the world. People who, just like you, want to grow, want to share, and want to learn. By challenging the ideas that don't work anymore at the Global Agile Summit, you'll get new connections, fresh ideas, and the energy to take your own Agile to the next level. And who knows, maybe even find your next career opportunity. So don't miss out. Check out the full program and grab your ticket now at the Global Agile Summit. I'm really looking forward to seeing you all in Tallinn, Estonia in May. I'll see you there.