Situational Leadership for Scrum Masters - Knowing When to Step Back | Anh Vu

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches

Episode: Situational Leadership for Scrum Masters - Knowing When to Step Back
Guest: Anh Vu
Host: Vasco Duarte
Release Date: July 24, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte (referred to as Rasco during the conversation) engages in a profound discussion with guest Anh Vu, an experienced Scrum Master and Agile Coach. The conversation centers around situational leadership for Scrum Masters, emphasizing the delicate balance between guiding teams and knowing when to step back to foster autonomy.

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Favorite Agile Retrospective Format

The episode opens with Rasco inquiring about Anh Vu's preferred format for agile retrospectives. Anh Vu shares his recent preference:

“Recently in my teams I prefer a freeform retrospective with people in a small room with a table and a white spot and people can like freely reflect into from the last win what we achieve from the goals and what we did not achieve.”
(01:43)

He highlights the importance of open reflection and collaborative discussion, ensuring that each retrospective concludes with actionable items:

“As long as the team leave the room with 1, 2, 3 actions, I think it's a win.”
(02:18)

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Techniques to Encourage Participation

Rasco probes further into how to foster active participation during retrospectives, especially in preventing team members from remaining silent. Anh Vu elaborates on his approach:

“I also prepare some sticky note for people to have some like two minutes at the beginning to really think quietly on their own about the last sprint and writing a few words from their perspective.”
(03:01)

This technique encourages individual reflection before group discussion, helping team members articulate their thoughts and share more openly. Over time, this practice cultivates a habit of sharing and enhances team communication.

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Team Context: Co-location vs. Remote/Hybrid

The conversation shifts to the team dynamics, specifically addressing the challenges of remote versus co-located teams. Anh Vu explains his team's setup:

“Actually we are the hybrid team. Like we spend 50% of the time working remotely. But we have the ground rule that usually we will spend time for the resource in the office together and we have lunch together that day.”
(04:22)

He emphasizes the importance of in-person interactions, such as sharing meals, to build trust and camaraderie among team members.

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Building Trust: Meals and Social Interaction

Rasco reinforces the significance of social activities in fostering trust within teams:

“Having a meal together builds trust or breaking bread together builds trust. [...] it's an important way to create connection and build trust within teams.”
(05:16)

Anh Vu concurs, highlighting his investment in offline office days to not only work together but also engage in social activities:

“Meal and coffee. So I will try to invest a lot in the offline office day. So we meet each other and we not only work, but do stuff together.”
(05:29)

Such activities are pivotal in strengthening team bonds, especially in hybrid environments.

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Defining Success as a Scrum Master

The core of the episode delves into what constitutes success for a Scrum Master. Anh Vu shares a transformative perspective inspired by a story from the Scrum Master Tumble Postcards:

“he defined successful Scrum Master, that when the Scrum Master can take a leave in one or two weeks, the team think as normal.”
(05:53)

For Anh Vu, a successful Scrum Master is one who empowers the team to become self-managing and self-organizing, enabling them to function seamlessly even in the Scrum Master's absence. This includes effective communication with stakeholders, problem-solving, and consistent delivery without constant oversight.

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Situational Leadership and Team Evolution

Rasco introduces the Situational Leadership Model by Hersey and Blanchard, relating it to team development stages. Anh Vu elaborates on how this model applies to Scrum Masters guiding their teams:

“It is the journey for the team from they start working with each other, they overcome the storming stage, [...] and then they reach the stage that they can start norming and performing.”
(07:54)

He outlines the evolution of a team through various stages—forming, storming, norming, and performing—and how the Scrum Master's role adapts accordingly:

1. Directing: In the initial stages, the Scrum Master provides clear guidance and structure.
2. Coaching: As the team gains confidence, the Scrum Master shifts to a coaching role, facilitating problem-solving without direct intervention.
3. Supporting: In advanced stages, the Scrum Master steps back, offering support only when necessary, allowing the team to operate autonomously.

Anh Vu emphasizes the importance of aligning the Scrum Master's growth with that of the team:

“the Scrum Master need to identify those sashes and with each sash the Scrum Master also need to know their role in that sash.”
(09:00)

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Parallel Growth of Team and Scrum Master

Rasco underscores a critical insight:

“the growth of the team is related to the growth of the Scrum Master.”
(10:26)

He points out that the team's ability to self-manage is intertwined with the Scrum Master's personal and professional development. A Scrum Master who continuously evolves can better support and lead their team through various stages of maturity.

Anh Vu echoes this sentiment:

“the team can really self manage and the Scrum Hustle can spend more time for more important things.”
(11:39)

This mutual growth ensures that both the team and the Scrum Master can handle challenges effectively, leading to sustained success.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Rasco and Anh Vu reflecting on the journey towards team autonomy and the Scrum Master's role in facilitating this transition. The discussion reinforces the idea that effective leadership is adaptive, evolving with the team's needs to ultimately empower them to thrive independently.

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Notable Quotes

• Anh Vu (01:43): “As long as the team leave the room with 1, 2, 3 actions, I think it's a win.”
• Anh Vu (05:53): “a successful Scrum Master is one who empowers the team to become self-managing and self-organizing.”
• Rasco (10:26): “the growth of the team is related to the growth of the Scrum Master.”
• Anh Vu (07:54): “It is the journey for the team from they start working with each other, they overcome the storming stage...”

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This episode offers valuable insights into situational leadership for Scrum Masters, emphasizing the importance of adaptability, continuous growth, and fostering team autonomy. Whether you're a seasoned Scrum Master or new to the role, Anh Vu's experiences and strategies provide practical guidance for enhancing your leadership approach and driving team success.

Transcript

[Vasko]

Hey there, agile adventurer, just a quick question. What if for the price of a fancy coffee or half a pizza, you could unlock over 700 hours of the best agile content on the planet? That's audio, video, E courses, books, presentations, all that you can think of. But you can also join live calls with world class practitioners and hang out in a flame war free and AI slop clean slack with the sharpest minds in the game. Oh, and yes, you get direct access to me, Vasko, your Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. No, this is not a drill. It's this Scrum Master Toolbox membership. And it's your unfair advantage in the agile world. So if you want to know more, go check out scrummastertoolbox.org membership. That's scrummastertoolbox.org Membership. And check out all the goodies we have for you. Do it now. But if you're not doing it now, let's listen to the podcast.

[Rasco]

Hello everybody. Welcome to our success. Thursday, the very big question of the week, of course, and this week to help us answer that question, we have with us Aang Vu. Hey Aang, welcome back.

[Aang Vu]

Glad to be back, Rasco.

[Rasco]

So we talk about success because it really is an important question for us as Scrum Masters, but we also talk about retrospective. So let's start with that. What's your favorite agile retrospective format and why?

[Aang Vu]

Yeah, recently in my teams I prefer a freeform retrospective with people in a small room with a table and a white spot and people can like freely reflect into from the last win what we achieve from the goals and what we did not achieve. And then people can start sharing the insight, the observation, the problem they see and sometimes debate about the solution and debate about what should be tried from the next sprint. As long as the team leave the room with 1, 2, 3 actions, I think it's a win.

[Rasco]

Yeah, and that's really the focus, right? As long as the team leaves the room with one, two, maybe three actions, not too many, it's a win. How do you like when you think about those conversations you said you ask people to freely share, invite them to share insights and so on.

[Vasko]

What kind of like, I don't know.

[Rasco]

Like approaches techniques do you use to make sure that people really bring that sharing to the table and they are not just sitting back and letting others talk and then being silent or not really engaging with each other? Like what are some of the practices you've learned really work to get people to actively participate in this Freeform retrospectives?

[Aang Vu]

Yeah, actually with those teams I also Working with them for quite a while. It's not a new team. Like at the beginning. We also try different forms of retrospective. I also prepare some sticky note for people to have some like two minutes at the beginning to really think quietly on their own about the last sprint and writing a few words from their perspective. And then they start having that habit to really think and really write down what they think to the paper and then stick that to the board and everyone can start talking about that. So they have that habit to think and share and be open to discuss with the team about their idea. So after a while they have that habit to sharing and then it becoming easier for the team to start talking with each other directly, even without the first step. That first step. So it is my technique. So I usually prefer that kind of physical touch for people to talk with each other and see each other in the same room. And it will come much more easier.

[Rasco]

So I'm guessing that the context of this team is co. Location. Right. It's not a remote team.

[Aang Vu]

Yeah. Actually we are the hybrid team. Like we spend 50% of the time working remotely. But we have the ground rule that usually we will spend time for the resource in the office together and we have lunch together that day. So it's also kind of the social activity for the team as well. Yeah.

[Rasco]

Especially when you add the meal. Because when we were talking about building trust in the Tuesday episode, one of the things that we know from practice and research is that having a meal together builds trust or breaking. Breaking bread together builds trust. And it's important to understand that even these small things, if you have the opportunity to sit down at the table and have a meal together, is an important way to create connection and build trust within teams.

[Aang Vu]

Yeah. Meal and coffee. So I will try to invest a lot in the offline office day. So we meet each other and we not only work, but do stuff together.

[Rasco]

Yeah. Bringing people together in a very practical way when we are. Even if we are remote, mostly when we have some days together, it's great to focus on that.

[Aang Vu]

Yeah, that's true.

[Rasco]

Of course, we do all of this because we want to succeed as Scrum Masters.

[Vasko]

So let's dive into that.

[Rasco]

Big question then. What does success mean for you as a Scrum Master?

[Aang Vu]

Yeah. There is an old story I also heard from the Scrum Master Tumble postcards. Like six, seven years ago, I heard from a guest that he defined successful Scrum Master, that when the Scrum Master can take a leave in one or two weeks, the team think as normal. So it is the success for the Scrum Master because he already helped the teams to achieve the stage of self managing or self organizing. They can still work together, solving the problem together, communicate effectively with the stakeholders and team deliver things. So it is a success for the Scrum Master when we support the team to achieve that stage. So for me as well, I also try to think about how I can help the team to be more proactive, like more self control in their own work. How, how can we promote the mindset that the the team can make the decision, but they can like brainstorm and together solve the problem together and not really wait for the Scrum Master to facilitate.

[Rasco]

So it is absolutely, and it's an important aspect to feel that we can go on vacation because that's also motivation for us. Right. Like nobody's going to be, it's not sustainable, in other words, to be kind of the center that is always needed and cannot step out. And I think that there's a journey, right, like the teams, when we start working with the team, they are not already there. So there's a journey like the steps, the things we look at. So when you think about this journey of the teams that you've worked with, from needing your presence to later on being completely autonomous, what are kind of the things you want to see happening over time so that you are sure that the team really is evolving in their self organization and autonomy?

[Aang Vu]

Yeah, there is a situational leadership model from her side. Blanchard is showing that. Yeah, like you said, it is the journey from the team. They will not be self organizing from day one. So it is the journey for the team from they start working with each other, they overcome the storming stage, they have some different opinion, different ways of working or different way to solve the problem and then they learn the way to overcome the debate, overcome the different way of working and then they start know the way to work with each other to pursue the team goal and then they reach the stage that they can start norming and performing. So it is the stage that they can deliver the work effectively and without much need from the Scrum Master to support or to coach or to help. So I think the Scrum Master need to identify those stash and with each stash the Scrum Master also need to know their role in that stash. For example, when the team stop like working with each other at the day one, so the Scrum can be more like directing. They can support the details, share the guidelines, share the process, how we should work with each other, the way we communicate and do the reporting, do the update and the way we make the decision. And then the second stage when the team already know each other and then the Scrum will be more like the coaching style. They will like seeing the problem and try to coaching the team to discuss and solve the problem by their own. And then when the team are good at that, are good at the brainstorming ideas and making decision and then if they pass that stage, they can reach the state when the Scrum Master can step back a bit. They don't need to active in every step from the team, but they can jump in and support whenever they need. And then if the team can still succeed with that period. So they will becoming closer to the self managing stage when they can confidently make decision by their own, communicate and deliver with the stakeholders and staying working well. So it is kind of the stage that we can learn from the situational leadership and the Scrum also need to really adapt it to the situation.

[Rasco]

Yeah, absolutely. And this situational leadership approach is actually rather important as a model. Right. We don't need to use all of the concepts from that, but as a model as something that inspires. Because one of the things that is implicit in those different stages that you were describing is also that we are growing at the same rate as the team is growing. Because unfortunately, also perhaps fortunately in some cases, the teams can never perform better than the Scrum Master can embody or imagine. Right. If we imagine that the team needs constant direction and constant management, then they will, because we will act that way. If we can imagine that the team can step up and take ownership and deliver things on their own with very little day to day contribution from the Scrum Master, then they will be able to do that. Right. So I think that it's very important to think about those two ideas, situational leadership as you described. And also that the growth of the team is related to the growth of the Scrum Master. And that's why we need to be growing all the time as well. Right?

[Aang Vu]

Yeah, indeed. So the Scrum Master also, it is also the journey for the Scrum Master like they can believe or choose the team more to do the stuff without the support or the involvement of the Scrum Master. And then the team rush is there that they can really self manage and the Scrum Hustle can spend more time for more important things.

[Rasco]

Absolutely. And like stakeholder management and helping resolve certain blockers, etc.

[Vasko]

It's a great story.

[Rasco]

Thank you for sharing that with us, Ayn.

[Aang Vu]

Yeah, it's great. Thanks Rascoe.

[Vasko]

All Right. I hope you liked this episode. But before you hit next episode, here's the deal. This podcast is powered by people like you, the members who wanted more than just inspiration. They wanted real tools and real connection to people who are practicing Agile. Every day we're talking access to over 700 hours of agile gold, CTO level strategy talks, summit keynotes, live workshops, E courses, Deep Dive interviews, books, and if you're into no estimates, we got the pioneers of no Estimates in those Deep Dive interviews as well. Agile Business Intelligence, creating product visions, coaching your product owner courses, you name it. You'll get invites to monthly live Q&As with agile pioneers and practitioners, plus a private Slack community which is free of all of that AI slop you see everywhere. And of course, without the flame wars, it's a community of practitioners that want to learn and thrive together. It's the best place to connect with community and learn together. So if this podcast has helped you before, imagine what you will get from this podcast membership. So head on over to scrummastertoolbox.org membership and join the community that's shaping the future of Agile. We have so much for you, so check out all the [e-mail] membership because listening is great, it's important. But doing it together, that's next level. I'll see you in the community Slack.

[Rasco]

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[Vasko]

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