Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches

Episode: Skipping the Vision: How Not to Introduce Kanban To An Agile Organization
Host: Vasco Duarte, Agile Coach, Certified Scrum Master, Certified Product Owner
Guest: Richard Brenner, Enterprise Agile Coach
Release Date: April 14, 2025

Introduction

In this engaging episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte welcomes Richard Brenner, an experienced Enterprise Agile Coach from Vienna, Austria. The conversation delves into Richard's journey from a software engineer to an agile coach, highlighting his real-world experiences and the challenges faced while introducing Agile methodologies in organizations.

Guest Background

Vasco Duarte introduces Richard Brenner as a versatile technology leader with a background in software engineering, product ownership, and agile coaching. Richard is passionate about building software that excites users and thrives at the intersection of technological change and leadership.

Richard Brenner shares his transition into Agile methodologies, starting as a software developer at Porsche Informatics in Salzburg. His journey from a developer to a product owner, and eventually to an agile coach, was driven by his desire to have a more significant impact on product development and client satisfaction.

“I could have more impact on the product from that position. So more impact on what are we creating, what are we building, how do we delight our clients there.”
— Richard Brenner [04:32]

The Challenge: Introducing Kanban to an Agile Organization

Richard recounts a pivotal experience where he was part of a coaching team tasked with introducing Kanban to a client’s department. Despite the client's enthusiasm for Agile methods, the implementation faced significant hurdles.

“...they just got the Kanban process now from top down and they needed to start with Kanban. And of course some were more open to it and some were really against using it...”
— Richard Brenner [08:44]

The primary issue stemmed from a lack of understanding of the underlying problems the organization aimed to solve with Kanban. The solution was imposed without involving the team members in the decision-making process, leading to resistance and ineffective adoption.

Detailed Story of the Failure

Richard elaborates on how the absence of clear objectives and insufficient engagement with team members led to the initiative's downfall. Despite conducting Kanban training and workshops, the teams questioned the necessity of changing their workflows without a clear rationale.

“They said look, we have some teams there, we want to introduce Kanban there and to start the way of working and to start a mindset shift...”
— Richard Brenner [06:39]

When team members asked, “Why do we need to work differently? What are we doing wrong now?” Richard struggled to provide business-centric answers, relying instead on methodological justifications that failed to resonate with the organization's specific needs.

“I couldn't say, the company is trying to achieve this and that and this. So this was the problem that I just couldn't use the pure Kanban methodology and argue for myself, which is not, I think the right approach.”
— Richard Brenner [09:19]

Lessons Learned and Takeaways

From this challenging experience, Richard emphasizes the importance of understanding the "why" behind implementing Agile methodologies. He highlights several critical lessons:

1. Define the Purpose: Always clarify the overarching goals before introducing new methodologies.

   “The first problem is that we didn't define the why... What do we want to achieve.”
   — Richard Brenner [11:52]

2. Engage Stakeholders Early: Involve team members and leadership from the outset to ensure buy-in and address concerns collaboratively.

   “They just got the Kanban process now from top down and they needed to start with Kanban.”
   — Richard Brenner [08:44]

3. Effective Communication: Transparently communicate the reasons for change and how it aligns with the organization's objectives.

   “You need to communicate, you cannot under communicate the reason why you are changing...”
   — Richard Brenner [12:25]

4. Comprehensive Contracting: Establish clear agreements between the coach and the organization, as well as with individual teams, to ensure alignment and mutual understanding.

   “There's still nowadays not enough emphasis on spending enough time on the contracting between the organization that hires you and you as a natural coach...”
   — Richard Brenner [13:32]

Best Practices for Agile Coaches

Building on his experiences, Richard offers actionable advice for agile coaches aiming to implement methodologies like Kanban or Scrum effectively:

• Conduct an Exploration Phase: Start with comprehensive conversations and observations to understand the current state of the organization.

  “The first phase is really, we call it an exploration phase... conversations with multiple people in the organization to get a good picture...”
  — Richard Brenner [13:45]

• Assess Cultural Dynamics: Pay attention to team interactions, openness to change, and existing communication patterns.

  “...we get a feeling, a sense of the culture. How do people talk to each other?...”
  — Richard Brenner [14:20]

• Identify and Address Contrasts: Recognize discrepancies between different levels of the organization, such as Agile teams coexisting with Waterfall practices.

  “...we have agile scrum teams, but we have a waterfall business still in a project world...”
  — Richard Brenner [15:59]

• Set Meaningful First Steps: Prioritize initial actions that can create momentum and demonstrate value within the first few months.

  “We say, okay, what do we see on team level?... What could be a meaningful first step?”
  — Richard Brenner [16:13]

Conclusion

Richard Brenner's candid reflection on his challenges in introducing Kanban underscores the necessity of a thoughtful, purpose-driven approach to Agile transformations. By prioritizing clear objectives, stakeholder engagement, effective communication, and thorough contracting, agile coaches can navigate organizational changes more successfully.

“...what I learned is that Kotter's Leading Change book is really good and also applies in practice for what I learned.”
— Richard Brenner [12:25]

This episode serves as a valuable resource for Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches seeking to deepen their understanding of effective change management and avoid common pitfalls in Agile implementations.

Key Quotes

• Richard Brenner: “I could have more impact on the product from that position. So more impact on what are we creating, what are we building, how do we delight our clients there.”
  [04:32]

• Richard Brenner: “They just got the Kanban process now from top down and they needed to start with Kanban. And of course some were more open to it and some were really against using it...”
  [08:44]

• Richard Brenner: “I couldn't say, the company is trying to achieve this and that and this. So this was the problem that I just couldn't use the pure Kanban methodology and argue for myself, which is not, I think the right approach.”
  [09:19]

• Richard Brenner: “You need to communicate, you cannot under communicate the reason why you are changing...”
  [12:25]

• Richard Brenner: “The first phase is really, we call it an exploration phase... conversations with multiple people in the organization to get a good picture...”
  [13:45]

This comprehensive summary captures the essence of Richard Brenner's insights and experiences shared during the episode, providing actionable lessons for Agile practitioners aiming to foster meaningful and effective Agile transformations within their organizations.