Systemic Change Management—Making the Emotional Side of Change Visible | Tom Molenaar

Summary

Podcast Summary: Systemic Change Management—Making the Emotional Side of Change Visible | Tom Molenaar

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Tom Molenaar
Date: October 1, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on the emotional impacts of organizational change and provides hands-on strategies for Scrum Masters and Agile coaches navigating teams through transitions. Guest Tom Molenaar discusses his real-world preparation for joining two teams undergoing significant change and shares insights from systemic change management, emphasizing the human side—especially the challenging "letting go" and "grieving" phases. The conversation delivers actionable advice for recognizing and facilitating emotional processing so teams can transition more smoothly to new ways of working.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Real-Life Challenge: Navigating Team Transitions

• Context: Tom is about to join two teams being moved into a new value stream and organizational "art" as part of a SAFe environment.
• Primary Challenge: Teams face extensive uncertainty—new team compositions, possible new physical locations, new processes, dependencies, and feelings of loss for old structures and routines.
• "There's a lot of uncertainty, loss... maybe a new physical place in the building, new teams with new dependencies… That's the biggest challenge." (Tom Molenaar, 02:27)

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2. The Five Phases of Systemic Change Management

Tom outlines an emotional roadmap that teams traverse during change:

(1) Sense of Urgency (04:02)

• Change starts with a clear need; without urgency, "the team won't feel the need for moving."

(2) Letting Go (04:50)

• Teams must release what is familiar (routines, seating, teammates), which is often experienced as tangible loss.
• "It's really important to let the team grieve also for their loss or letting go." (04:58)

(3) Not Knowing (05:41)

• After letting go but before the new normal, teams enter an insecure, ambiguous period.

(4) Creation (06:20)

• Teams experiment with new habits and structures, with energy and ideas becoming more tangible but not yet stabilized.

(5) A New Beginning (06:47)

• New habits and processes solidify, and a sense of peace and routine returns.

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3. Addressing the Emotional Impact of Change

• Importance of Making Emotions Visible:
  Many emotional reactions are "understream" (below the surface) and not immediately observable.
• Actionable Advice:
  • Address emotional realities by creating spaces (e.g., retrospectives) to speak about what is being lost, felt, and feared.
  • Model vulnerability: "Maybe being vulnerable yourself, to give a good example to the team that it can be a vulnerable phase." (Tom, 09:14)
  • Sharing can resolve "like 80%" of issues because people realize they are not alone. (Tom, 10:17)
• Tools:
  • Structured retrospectives focused on change.
  • Plot obstacles together and see which are valid/problematic, and address as a team.

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4. Balancing Validation and Moving Forward

• Pitfall:
  It's tempting to rush to solutions and ignore the grieving phase, which can invalidate people’s feelings.
• Quote:
  "At some point teams need to grieve, and grief is about being in the obstacle… And it's okay. At some point, it's perfectly okay to not know how to solve [it] yet." (Vasco Duarte, 11:04)
• Technique:
  • Allow people to sit with difficulty instead of pushing for quick solutions.
  • Acknowledge and verbalize people's concerns: "I hear that you guys have a lot of doubts about how the new value stream will be organized…" (Vasco, 14:55)
• Tip:
  "Sit on your hands" as a metaphor—hold back advice, stay engaged and present, but give team members the space to process and even solve challenges themselves. (Tom, 13:58)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Phases of Change:

  • "All change starts with urgency… although everything changes all the time, we really tend to resist change if it's not necessary." (Tom Molenaar, 04:07)
  • "After the letting go phase… the old is gone, the ship has sailed, but the new isn’t there yet." (Tom, 05:41)

• On Emotional Processing:

  • "There's a lot of power in sharing your insecurities or the grief that some people in the team may experience." (Tom, 09:36)
  • "Balancing validation… with the creation of a new possibility." (Vasco, 11:14)
  • "People have enough resources to overcome that phase. And that phase is necessary to not know, to have a space of insecurity and dealing with that feeling so it can properly be processed." (Tom, 12:47)

• On Coaching Approach:

  • "Really slow down and try not to move too quickly to solving… it's a bit uncomfortable when team members speak up… but if you sit on your hands, you also give them the opportunity… to solve it themselves." (Tom, 13:36)
  • "Until we go to the point where we can actually verbalize it, there's no space for moving forward." (Vasco, 15:11)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:11 – Tom describes his real-world challenge in supporting teams facing significant change.
• 04:02 – Introduction & explanation of the five phases of systemic change management.
• 08:50 – Strategies to make emotional undercurrents visible and actionable.
• 10:41 – Balancing the acknowledgment of obstacles and the path toward solutions.
• 12:22 – Coaching tips for not rushing into solutions and supporting team grieving.
• 13:58 – The “sit on your hands” metaphor and why it's powerful for coaches.
• 15:13 – Importance of verbalizing uncertainty to “clear space for a new beginning.”

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Closing Thoughts

This episode emphasizes the necessity of attending to the human side of change by creating safe, open spaces for teams to express and process emotions. Tom Molenaar and Vasco Duarte model empathy and practical coaching wisdom, reminding listeners that transformation is as much about validating uncertainty and grief as it is about enabling action and growth.

"To get to the core and the feeling and the realization and verbalize it... I think that's the core of that phase, to have that space cleared for a new beginning." (Tom, 15:41)

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Transcript

[A]

Hey there, agile adventurer, just a quick question.

[B]

What if, for the price of a.

[A]

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[B]

Hello everybody. Welcome to our coaching Wednesday where we explore real life challenges with real life people in a real life coaching conversation. So Tom, welcome back to the show.

[C]

Thanks Pasco, thanks for having me.

[B]

So, as Scrum Masters, as I was saying, we work in the middle of highly complex environments with team members, several teams, stakeholders, organizations that are changing. And that means that we're always facing challenges. So challenges are the path.

[D]

Right?

[B]

Like we're always going to find those challenges. So we need to get really good and really curious on how to overcome those challenges. And a great tool we have in our toolboxes, Scrum Masters, is this coaching conversation. So to get us started on that conversation, Tom, describe for us in your current role or assignment, what is the single biggest challenge you're facing right now.

[C]

Currently, basically. So if we zoom in on the current situation is that I'm going to start next week with a new company, new teams, and I already know about the context or their biggest challenge that's going to play a big role in the coming months. So I really want to zoom in because I was already thinking about a possible approach. So yeah, let's zoom in in that preparation and what are possible scenarios that the team can run into. So basically there are two teams within a company. They work safe, so they work in different kind of arts and those two teams are gonna transfer to a different art, a different value stream. So what's going to happen is that there's a lot of uncertainty, loss. Yeah, maybe new physical place in the building, new teams with new dependencies, maybe basically a lot of change. That's the biggest yeah, the biggest challenge. And I was already preparing the new challenge and new assignments and I was thinking about systemic change management because it beautifully describes five phases that a team or person's person goes through when changing. Basically.

[B]

Can you describe those phases for us?

[C]

The first phase is a sense of urgency. All change start with urgency, the need to change. Because naturally we're not very keen on changing. Although everything changes all the time, we really tend to resist change if it's not necessary. So within an organization and within a team, if there's no urgency, the team won't feel that there's won't feel the need for moving or getting into that direction. And the second phase is letting go. That basically occurs when there's a sense of urgency. The team feels like, okay, we need to. We're going to be part of a slightly different value stream of the scope or purpose of our team is changing. So there's a big need for change, urgency check. Then there's a phase of letting go where the team needs to go, needs to move into that new direction. And it goes also with the experience of loss, loss of everything that is known. Old habits, old teams, maybe that they were sitting next to in the office. So when it comes to environment, but also their habits. And yeah, that's a second phase. And it's really important to let the team grieve also for their loss or letting go. So giving those emotions, feelings, the proper place without thinking too much in it, that's the challenge. After the letting go phase, it describes not knowing. So the old is gone, the ship has sailed, but the new isn't there yet. And that comes with a lot of insecurity. So we're moving towards that new phase. The old isn't visible anymore, pretty insecure phase. And it relates to the fourth phase, which is creation. Here, together we experiment. There's room for new energy in the team. So the new is more tangible but not solid. So we're experimenting with habits. And after that creation phase, where you experiment, the fifth phase is a new beginning where there's a new way. After the experiment, experimenting with different ways, certain habits are falling into place. The product and the team topology within the organization is set. That's when the new ways can be anchored in the team DNA and also the piece returns. So that's basically the five steps in the process.

[B]

For me, this model and there are other models, but let's take this model is really important because any team change, so a change in the team, whether it is people leaving, whether it is a new Process being adopted, or like in this case, even moving places physically as well as in the organization. It's really important to accept that this will have a personal impact on the different team members. The impact will be different though, because some people will be excited about the new. Right, like the discovering new teammates, having a new desk, maybe a better desk than they had before in a different place, maybe working in a more exciting product or technology, while others will be losing that.

[D]

Right.

[B]

They were already in the desk they wanted. They were already working with the technology and the product they wanted, and now they need to move. And although that is outside our control, organizations have other control mechanisms than our own individual will. It is part of the process. And I really like the emphasis of this letting go and the grieving.

[D]

Right.

[B]

So what have you thought about when you come to these new teams? And of course you're already expecting that some people will be in that stage, right? The need to let go, but not being really able to. What are some of the techniques, the approaches that you already have in mind that would be helpful for these team members to start to let go?

[C]

Yeah, good question. Because of course, these feelings are not always visible. Also, the systemic change management described the upper stream, which the things that are visible, the processes and what's underneath the water, the directly translated understream or downward stream, which is more invisible. So the first step is to make it visible, to make it transparent, talk about it, maybe being vulnerable yourself, to give a good example to the team that it can be a vulnerable phase. So really guide them and lead them through the phases. And in the letting go phase, I would. Yeah, it's pretty simple and complex at the same time. But create a safe space. For example, during a retro or additional meeting that comes with this transition, where you give the team the space to speak up about their feelings and to make it transparent so they can help each other. And there's a lot of power in sharing your insecurities or the grief that some people on the team may experience. So by sharing that it already, I think solves like 80%. And if you can also plot certain obstacles in a retro where team members are really concerned about and see what needs to happen to move the way a bit, or if there are valid obstacles, let's try to solve them together. But in my experience, like letting it out and sharing it is already 80% of it.

[B]

So there's a balance here. And when we start sharing, obstacles will come up naturally. Right? Like, this will not work. This is not good, whatever, right? This is normal, perfectly fine. But there's a balance here to strike between acknowledging, yes, those are obstacles. And nobody can tell anybody else that something is not an obstacle because that's a personal experience. So balancing that, the validation we need to give the people and the teams with the creation of a new possibility.

[D]

Right.

[B]

But what if. How about when? Or things like, how would we solve that? Because at some point teams need to grief, and grief is about being in the obstacle. It's about accepting this is going to be tough. I don't even know how to solve it yet. And it's okay. At some point, it's perfectly okay to not know how to solve. So there's that step, and then the other step is okay, but how do we solve it anyway? And I find that it's really hard for me. Like, I have teenagers. This is all we talk about every single day, right? Like, there is this problem, oh, my God, you know, hormones, emotions are high. But then when I start talking about how about if we solve this, then they feel almost invalidated. Like, you're not even listening to me yet. Right. And I find that this balance between listening without dwelling and moving forward without ignoring the grief, I think this is so hard. Do you have, like, tips on how we can do that for ourselves and of course, also for our teams that are going through these changes?

[C]

Yeah, I totally hear you. And it's something I recognize as well, because as coaches, you want to help.

[B]

And.

[C]

We tend to skip the phase where we just give the person the space to grieve, to not know. Instead of that, we tend to move to solutions, maybe too quick, like you said. Then we invalidate people because people are. They have enough resources to overcome that phase. And that phase is necessary to not know, to have a space of insecurity and dealing with that feeling so it can properly be processed before you move into creation and discussing possible solutions or new ideas, how to cope. So I think what we can do as coaches is really slow down and try not to move too quickly to solving and also sitting on your hands when it comes to saving. So it's a bit uncomfortable when team members speak up and share their. Or maybe your. Your teenager share their problems, but if you sit on your hands, you also give them the opportunity. It's not about disengaging. Stay engaged, but don't act too quickly and give them the opportunity to solve it themselves. And that's how they gain trust, how they learn quickest.

[B]

So I really like that. Sit on your hands. Although I'm Portuguese, so my hands are speaking all the time, as Tom can see in the video. So I don't actually recommend physically sitting on your hands. I mean, we can use our hands in different ways, but definitely as a, as a metaphor. I totally agree. And one thing that as you were describing this, sitting on your hands, giving space, holding back a little bit, letting the person describe, one of the things that I have found works really well with me. So I've been in therapy for a long time and I am big advocate of therapy for our own personal growth and mental health. And one of the things that I've noticed is that sometimes it just helps to verbalize. I hear that you guys have a lot of doubts about how the new value stream will be organized because sometimes the people feel but don't verbalize. And when we are in that phase where we feel the insecurity, the confusion, the uncertainty, but we can't verbalize it, we can't handle it either. And until we go to the point where we can actually verbalize it, there's no space for moving forward.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. Then it's unaddressed or not addressed enough and it keeps living on, dragging on, and to get to the core and the feeling and the realization and verbalize it. Like you beautifully explained. I think that's the core of that phase to make, to have that space cleared for a new beginning.

[B]

Yeah, I like how you phrased it. To help clear that space for a new beginning to be possible. Thank you for sharing this, Tom. I really love this coaching conversation. Thank you for helping us go through this.

[C]

Yeah, thanks, Pascal.

[A]

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[B]

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