The Adaptable Product Owner — How Progress Over Perfection Drives Real Value in Scrum | Bhavin Shukla

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: The Adaptable Product Owner — How Progress Over Perfection Drives Real Value in Scrum | Bhavin Shukla

Overview

In this episode, host Vasco Duarte sits down with Bhavin Shukla to explore the contrasts between effective and ineffective Product Owners in Scrum teams. They focus on how adaptability, feedback loops, and prioritization make the difference between simply progressing through a delivery plan versus genuinely delivering value to customers. Through practical stories and memorable insights, Bhavin illustrates why a “progress over perfection” mindset is key for today’s Product Owners.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Danger of a Well-Articulated, but Static Backlog

• Anti-Pattern: No Feedback Loop
  Bhavin recounts working with a Product Owner (PO) who excelled at articulating backlog value, but failed to gather customer feedback after delivery.
  • “All the work that got done was never actually taken to the customer to get that early feedback.” (Bhavin, 01:28)
  • Despite a “happy” team and clear project goals, the team missed opportunities to validate if they were truly helping the business or customers.
• Discovery of the Anti-Pattern
  Bhavin noticed a lack of conversation about changing priorities or adapting the roadmap, which raised a red flag:
  • “There was no conversation around, ‘Oh, but we heard, you know…’ I was looking for those keywords... The roadmap has to change or the priority needs to move. Those conversations were missing.” (Bhavin, 03:04)
  • Upon investigation, what was being called a “roadmap” was actually a static delivery plan, divorced from real customer input.

2. Effective Product Owners: Adaptable, Communicative, Inclusive

• Positive Example: The Adaptable, Collaborative PO
  Bhavin contrasts the previous anti-pattern with a PO who fostered team inclusivity and saw prioritization as a daily discipline.
  • Co-creation: The PO built a culture where everyone contributed to the backlog, yet was vigilant about the risk of misalignment from siloed ideas. (04:53)
  • Sense of Intuition: She anticipated misalignment early and addressed it with collaborative tools like story maps.
  • Established Feedback Loops: This PO had weekly conversations with customers and wasn’t afraid to pivot sprint goals and roadmaps based on feedback.
    • “She was...more communicative on a weekly basis with the customer to collect the feedback. So every time the feedback came...she had to pivot the sprint goals, the roadmap...” (Bhavin, 06:19)
  • Respectful Reprioritization: She introduced a “not required anymore” section in the story map—a tactful way to shelve good ideas when priorities shifted, without demotivating contributors.
    • “It was a very respectful way of saying to the team, ‘Great idea, but the goals changed, we don’t need it anymore.’” (Bhavin, 07:29)
• Impact on Team Culture
  • This approach encouraged psychological safety: team members felt heard, even if their ideas weren’t always actioned immediately.
  • It fostered adaptability without chaos, keeping focus and motivation high.

3. Progress Over Perfection

• Contrast and Core Message
  • Vasco and Bhavin discuss how the two stories show the vital difference between static planning and embracing change.
    • “Ideas are a dime a dozen...The problem is the ability to keep straight on that focus path and that value path. And for that we need the feedback and we need the adaptability.” (Vasco, 08:16)
  • Bhavin emphasizes: “It’s a progress over perfection mindset, right? Yes, you can make a perfect backlog...but would the customer wait for the perfection to be launched in the market? Maybe? No.” (Bhavin, 09:29)
  • The real value lies in iterating quickly with customer feedback—delivering sustainable progress, not just ideal plans.

4. Final Reflections & Practical Advice

• Humans + Technology
  Bhavin encourages Product Owners to leverage technology for analysis, but ultimately trust human judgment and alignment for clarity and shared purpose. (10:16)
• Self-Reflection Tool
  Bhavin shares his weekly self-retrospective question for unlocking potential:
  • “What conversations did I avoid this week that could have unlocked progress?” (Bhavin, 10:56)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [01:28] Bhavin: “He was really good at articulating the value in the backlog. From a customer standpoint... But what was missing is we were not getting enough feedback on, ‘Hey, what’s the product doing? Is it really helping the business, the customers or what’s happening?’”
• [03:04] Bhavin: “There was no conversation about changing priorities... It was a static delivery plan. No customer input into things. And that’s where the whole conversation started.”
• [04:53] Bhavin: “She embedded prioritization as a discipline in every day...co-creation of backlog was a huge thing.”
• [06:19] Bhavin: “Every time the feedback came...she had to pivot the sprint goals, the roadmap...she would clearly articulate, ‘Okay, so guys, direction’s changed. Now the goal is going to be this.’”
• [07:29] Bhavin: “She had this section called ‘not required anymore’...so every time…it was a respectful way of saying to the team, ‘Great idea, but the goals changed, we don’t need it anymore.’”
• [09:29] Bhavin: “It’s a progress over perfection mindset, right?...Let’s just keep progressing guys...I'll get the customer feedback and value to you and then [we’re] forming the perfect bridge to deliver value.”
• [10:56] Bhavin: “What conversations did I avoid this week that could have unlocked progress? If that helps, use that question as your thing to really unlock the potential.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:28] – Anti-pattern: Product Owner misses customer feedback
• [03:04] – How the lack of adaptability was detected
• [04:53] – Positive example: The adaptable, inclusive Product Owner
• [06:19] – PO’s feedback loop and pivoting roadmaps/goals
• [07:29] – Handling team ideas with respect through backlog management
• [09:29] – The “progress over perfection” value proposition
• [10:56] – Weekly self-reflection for Product Owners

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Final Thoughts

This episode delivers a compelling case for why great Product Owners champion adaptability, create ongoing feedback loops, and foster psychological safety in their teams. Bhavin’s vivid contrasts show that the real art of product ownership lies not in perfect plans but in relentless, customer-driven progress. The practical question Bhavin leaves with listeners—What conversations did you avoid this week that could have unlocked progress?—serves as a powerful takeaway for Agile practitioners everywhere.

Transcript

[A]

Hello everyone. Quick heads up before we start today's episode. The Global Agile Summit is happening on May 4th. Yes, May 4th. And even with a big blowout Star wars party you have to join. It will be online and it's like always free to attend. We have four tracks this year that I'm really excited about and I think you will too. Stick around to the end of the episode to know what they are. If you want to check it out already now you can check it out at bit ly globalagile 26. That's the numerals 2 and 6 at the end. So one more time, that's bit ly globalagile 2, 6, all one word, all lowercase. And 2 and 6 are the numerals 2 and 6. So stick around till the end of the episode and I'll tell you what's in store. But for now, on to today's episode. Hello everybody. Welcome to our Friday TGIF and product owner episode this week with Bhavin Shukla. Hey Bhavin, welcome back.

[B]

Hey Vasco. Hey everyone.

[A]

So Bhavin, Friday's product owner day here on the podcast. So we'll talk about great product owners in a minute. But first share with us what might have been potentially the worst product owner anti pattern you've witnessed in your career.

[B]

I think one pattern clearly stands out. When I used to work with this product owner and then make no mistake, he was amazing at articulating the backlog. Like we all have seen nd patents in our backlogs, right? Sometimes they are more tasks and they are like more technical work and the activities are captured as stories. But this particular product owner, he was really good at articulating the value in the backlog. From a customer standpoint, what made it an anti pattern is all the work that got done was never actually taken to the customer to get that early feedback. And this was quite subtle. It was not clearly noticeable because when you have a amazing articulation of value in your backlog and then you meeting the goals more consistently than not, there's always this happy moments. But then what, what was missing is we were not getting enough feedback on, hey, what's the product doing? Is it really helping the business, the customers or what's happening? Nobody asks unsettling questions. So that was an anti pattern that I noticed. Vasco, it was quite a, quite a moment discussing this with the product owner.

[A]

How did you discover that the product owner, despite understanding and being able to articulate value, was not collecting feedback from the customers?

[B]

I always saw this, hey Guys, this is what we're going to do next. Sort of a language. There was no conversations around. Hey, you know what? There's a bit of a change in the priorities. There's a bit of a change in the roadmap and the direction. Oh, but we heard, you know, I was looking for those keywords and those languages and these things in day to day conversations with the product and all that. But the roadmap has to be, has to change or the priority needs to move. Those conversations are missing and which made me think, oh, we're going well, we're humming. But then where's the roadmap? I was just curious, right Vasco, I said where's the roadmap? Can I have a look at the roadmap? Like how are we going? Because we're doing really good. So where's the roadmap and what's. What's based on what you're projecting as a timeline to. For a final go live. How far are we. And then what's missing? And things, you know, just like curious inquiries. And that's where I got critics. I'm like, you know what, why, why? It's like a static, it's a delivery plan. It's not really a roadmap. Isn't it like so we were working through a delivery plan. No, I would say customer input into things, adding value. And that's where the whole conversation started. Absolutely.

[A]

It's a great question to ask the product owners. Now not all product owners make this kind of anti patterns or fall into this kind of anti pattern. Some product owners are really excellent at the work that they do. So share with us, Bhavin, that the best product owner you've ever worked with, how did they work?

[B]

Oh, she was, she was genius. An amazing person to work with. You know, she had her own way of doing things. Particularly when it came to her role. She embedded prioritization as a discipline in everyday. It was like a micro macro discipline I would say in everyday work. I'll give you an example. She had built a culture in a team where you know, co creation of backlog was a huge thing and which is how we like it. Right? Like there's a vision. Product owner has this interpretation of what needs to happen to meet the vision but then also the team contributes, so on and so forth. So she created this sort of sense of your value, your idea is crucial to success which is where everyone contributed to the backlog. Now she knew that everyone's contributing their ideas but they are all siloed ideas and the biggest risk that she's probably seeing is misalignment, which would completely derail the whole objective behind what the whole team's trying to achieve. So she saw that coming early, which was one thing about her. She had this great sense of intuition where she could see this is happening. So siloed ideas coming in. And while this co creation is promoted, she used to use story maps in her refinement and backlog, Sprint planning conversations. A lot of so every time. And she was, unlike my previous narrative around the product owner who wasn't communicating with the customer, this product owner was actually more communicative on a weekly basis with the customer to collect the feedback. So every time the feedback came naturally, she had to pivot the sprint goals, the roadmap, so on and so forth. And she would clearly articulate, okay, so guys, directions change. Now the goal is going to be this. This is what we want to achieve. And in the story map she had for the wrong or right reasons. I don't know how the audience would perceive me when I say this, but she had this section called not required anymore. So every time it was a very subtle and a very respectful way of saying to the team, great idea, but the goals changed, we don't need it anymore, or not now. So, you know, no one felt offended. They're like, okay, we're not doing it now, we'll do it later. Great conversation, right? And gives people this sense of, yes, I did contribute to the idea. Customers changed their need. So. And it's fine, it's backlogged for now. So she had this nice little section where she did this and then that just changed the whole game around, you know, the focus and getting clarity and then more importantly, being courageous around people saying, giving those ideas to her, really dynamics that she worked with and the team culture that she set up was fabulous. I would say.

[A]

Yeah. And I really like how these two narratives actually show completely different perspectives on the idea of sticking to one direction versus collecting and adapting to feedback in a way that doesn't disrupt how the team works. What I usually tell the teams that I work with is that ideas are a dime a dozen. If you sit down for five minutes, you'll write more ideas than you can develop in six months. So the problem is not the ideas. The problem is the ability to keep straight on that focus path and that value path. And for that we need the feedback and we need the adaptability. Right? So what where in the previous story we had this PO who didn't request feedback, therefore didn't need to change the roadmap. And now in this narrative we have the PO who was able to change the roadmap without causing chaos or without causing confusion in the team. So I think these are really great sides of the coin of collecting feedback and adapting to what we understand from that feedback. So thank you for it's a progress

[B]

over perfection mindset, right? Like, yes, you can make a perfect backlog. Yes, you can deliver a perfect product. Probably, yes. Would the customer wait for the perfection to be launched in the market? Maybe? No. So that's the mindset I saw with this production. Let's just keep progressing guys. I'll make sure that the culture's built and sustainable whilst I'll get the customer feedback and value to you and then forming the perfect bridge to deliver value. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[A]

Well said. Progress over perfection. Bhavin, it's been a pleasure to have you here this week. We're almost at the end, but before we go, where can people find out more about you and the work that you're doing?

[B]

So I'm on LinkedIn. Bavin Shukla, you would see this guy with glasses and wearing some. I can't remember what color the tie was. That's me. But yeah. Thank you for having me. Vasco. You know, if there's anything that I would probably add as a closing comment is, you know, we live in a world that's faster than ever. The technology is just emerging day in and day, every day that we work with. The only message to all the listeners is treat technology as your extra pair of hands. Help you do your analysis or your removal, your manual frictions and your surfacing the insights. Trust your human judgment and your human way of aligning people in terms of clarity and shared purpose. Because the question I ask myself end of every week I have a retro boat running in my house, is what conversations did I avoid, avoid this week that could have unlocked progress? If that's one question that helps me confront my demons, if that helps, use that question as your, as your thing to, you know, really unlock the potential.

[A]

Absolutely. Great question for self reflection. Bhavin, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for being here with us and for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.

[B]

Thank you, Vasco. Thanks for having me and it was great pleasure talking to you, Vasco.

[A]

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