Podcast Summary

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
Episode: The Agile Organization as a Learning System With Tom Gilb and Simon Holzapfel
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guests: Tom Gilb (Agile pioneer, author of the EVO approach) & Simon Holzapfel (Agile thought leader)
Date: December 12, 2025

Episode Overview

In this culminating episode of a special week-long series, host Vasco Duarte brings together Tom Gilb and Simon Holzapfel for a deep dive into what makes organizations truly agile, adaptable, and rooted in ongoing learning. The discussion weaves together themes from Gilb’s engineering value methodology (EVO), Holzapfel’s organizational “ecosystem” perspective, and pragmatic advice for leaders who want to transform organizations into learning systems. The trio covers the balance between structure and adaptability, the importance of value delivery over process adherence, and how social and technological “glue” sustains lasting change.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Farmer Mentality” and Learning Organizations

Simon’s approach to creating adaptable, learning-focused organizations

• Simon likens the most effective organizations to ecosystems managed thoughtfully—like farmers, not industrialists.
  • “Take a farmer's mentality, go slow to go fast. If you want to go somewhere, go together as a team.” (Simon, 02:22)
  • The farmer approach emphasizes stability, connection, play, and evolving together, rejecting the linear “industrial mind.”
  • Key to learning: Slow down, nurture team bonds, institutional memory, and a sense of play and clear values.

2. Building Stability as Foundation for Adaptation

• Simon suggests a practical way to “prepare the soil”:
  • Stabilize core roles (e.g., Scrum Masters) for a decade to build deep, tacit knowledge and institutional memory.
    • “Set aside what you think is a staggeringly stupid, large amount of money to say we're going to blow out the constraint of stable scrum masters for 10 years.” (Simon, 04:36)
• This foundation buffers teams—and enables more freedom and experimentation at the Scrum team level (Run Scrum, LeSS, DAD, etc.).

3. Why Aren’t Organizations Adopting Proven Value Engineering?

• Tom shares a candid critique:
  • “Agile is not the most important idea... there's a higher level, more important idea if you're talking to a top manager: value.” (Tom Gilb, 06:03)
  • Value delivery trumps Agile—he calls for “Value Masters, not Scrum Masters.”
    • Value here is defined by critical stakeholder outcomes: “Value is not money or profit... It is the critical stakeholder values like security, which is not a money value, but boy, is it important.” (Tom, 07:12)

4. Balancing Structure and Adaptability

• Agile transformation requires both:
  • Adapt organically as information emerges (learning cycles, feedback)
  • Apply rigorous structure when defining, measuring, and acting on value (strategy engineering)
• Tom’s advice to clients:
  • “Keep the focus on the value flow... Anything that helps you, try them out. If they work, keep them. If they don't work, change. Everything else is secondary. Value flow is primary.” (Tom, 09:03)

5. Doctrine vs. Process: Adaptive Patterns for Complex Systems

• Vasco introduces the concept of doctrine: A body of context-driven patterns (“OODA loops,” mission processes) rather than rigid processes.
  • “A doctrine meaning a history advised collection of patterns that have been proven to work.” (Vasco, 10:44)
• Tom references his paper “DOVE: Deliver Optimum Values Efficiently,” which serves as a value-centric manifesto.
  • “It is quite simply a set of principles that Focus on delivering value. Delivering value. Delivering value.” (Tom, 11:38)
• Simon highlights seeing both “social technology” and “physical technology”—with culture and interactions forming the “air we breathe” in organizations. (Simon, 12:53)

6. Social & Technological Glue in Organizations

• Vasco synthesizes: Value is created in interactions; learning organizations need ongoing, live conversation—not just annual meetings or process adherence.
  • “Any learning organization [is] a continuous process that creates value in interactions.” (Vasco, 15:22)
• Tom identifies clarity of joint purpose as the “essential ingredient of the social glue.”
  • “Scrum and Agile have done zero, zilch, nothing to help us ever. They've not even had a serious conversation about it.” (Tom, 16:22)
• Short-term visible value delivery builds trust—and is thus vital for creating “glue.”

7. Notable Exchange: Jack Welch and Social Technology

• Simon references Jack Welch as someone who understood “social technology,” though often misunderstood or villainized now.
  • “He wrote about social technology in the 80s and 90s... Jack Welch, way, way back, got it. If only Tom and Jack had gotten together, global poverty would have been erased decades ago.” (Simon, 17:50)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Simon Holzapfel on Farmer's Mentality:
  “Go slow to go fast. If you want to go somewhere, go together as a team.” (02:22)
• Tom Gilb on Value over Process:
  “Agile is not the most important idea... There's a higher level, more important idea... Value.” (06:03)
• Tom Gilb on what organizations really need:
  “We need value Masters, not Scrum Masters.” (06:37)
• Simon Holzapfel on building institutional memory:
  “Build tacit institutional memory in a staggering way.” (04:53)
• Tom Gilb on priorities:
  “Keep the focus on the value flow... Anything else is secondary.” (09:03)
• Vasco Duarte synthesizing the duality:
  “Learning organization as a continuous process that creates value in interactions.” (15:22)
• Tom Gilb on the missing Agile conversation:
  “Scrum and Agile have done zero, zilch, nothing to help us ever. They've not even had a serious conversation about it.” (16:22)
• Simon Holzapfel on Jack Welch and social technology:
  “He wrote about social technology in the 80s and 90s... Jack Welch, way, way back, got it...” (17:50)
• Closing encouragement:
  “Go Scrum Masters everywhere. Know that you're needed, loved and appreciated. Even if there's no one in the team right now who looks like that's true for them.” (Simon, 19:04)

Key Timestamps

• 01:27 – Episode topic setup: Synthesizing the week, ecosystem, “farmer mindset”
• 02:22 – Simon introduces the farmer metaphor for agile organizations
• 04:36 – The case for long-term investment in Scrum Master stability
• 06:03 – Tom’s fundamental argument: Value over Agile as the key idea
• 09:03 – How Tom guides clients to balance structure and adaptation
• 11:38 – Tom introduces his “DOVE” doctrine
• 12:53 – Simon discusses “social technology” versus “physical technology”
• 16:22 – Tom critiques Agile/Scrum for failing to create clarity of joint purpose
• 17:50 – Simon references Jack Welch on social technology
• 19:04 – Simon’s closing encouragement to Scrum Masters

Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced, practical, and sometimes provocative look at what it really takes to foster a learning, resilient, and truly agile organization. Central themes include:

• Prioritizing value delivery over “being Agile”
• Building institutional memory and stability in supportive roles
• Recognizing and bridging both the social and technological aspects of change
• The need for ongoing, value-focused, and context-aware practices—grounded in doctrine, not dogma

The speakers’ advice is clear: Go beyond process, invest in people and clarity, and treat the organization as a living, evolving ecosystem.