The Challenge of Breaking Silos, And Building Collaborative Teams Remotely | Antti Horelli

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches Episode: The Challenge of Breaking Silos, And Building Collaborative Teams Remotely | Antti Horelli Release Date: January 28, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Pasco Duarte welcomes Antti Horelli to discuss the intricacies of building collaborative teams in a remote setting and the challenges of breaking down silos within organizations. The conversation delves into personal experiences, insightful strategies, and practical solutions aimed at enhancing team dynamics and fostering effective communication in distributed environments.

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Agile Fatigue and the Global Agile Summit

Pasco Duarte kicks off the podcast by addressing a prevalent issue in the Agile community: Agile Fatigue. He shares an anecdote from a Global Agile Summit attendee who expressed feeling overwhelmed by the rigid adherence to Agile frameworks, likening them to "handcuffs" rather than empowering tools. Recognizing this sentiment, Duarte highlights the upcoming Global Agile Summit in Tallinn, Estonia, scheduled for May 18-20, 2025. The summit aims to rejuvenate the Agile spirit by featuring real-life success stories, practical solutions, and keynote speakers like Gojko Adzic and Jurgen Apelo. Duarte encourages listeners to overcome Agile fatigue by engaging with the summit for fresh perspectives and actionable insights.

Notable Quote:
"It doesn't have to be this way. So we started thinking and at the Global Agile Summit, which is happening this May, we're bringing together practitioners who've actually done that, who've broken free from this... mindset." — Pasco Duarte [00:01]

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Guest Introduction: Antti Horelli and His Influential Book

Pasco introduces Antti Horelli, an experienced Scrum Master, who shares his most influential reading material: "This is Lean: Resolving the Efficiency Paradox" by Swedish professors Mudig and Ostrom. Although not exclusively about Scrum, the book profoundly impacted Antti's understanding of flow and efficiency within Agile frameworks.

Notable Quote:
"It really helped me kind of crystallize my understanding about what is this flow that we talk about when we like talk about flow and Kanban flow in Scrum." — Antti Horelli [02:34]

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Explaining Flow in Scrum: A One-Piece Flow Approach

Delving into the concept of flow, Antti emphasizes the importance of one-piece flow—focusing on completing one task at a time to maximize value delivery. He acknowledges the practicality challenges in adhering strictly to this methodology but asserts the significant benefits it brings in enhancing overall productivity and ensuring that work translates into functional code and tangible value for end-users.

Notable Quote:
"Aiming for completing one thing that creates value to the end user... it's tough. It probably doesn't make sense to really in everyday work do exactly that. But aim for that." — Antti Horelli [04:39]

Pasco reinforces this by summarizing Antti's perspective on one-piece flow, encouraging listeners to adopt this approach where feasible.

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Story of Team Conflicts and Challenges

Antti recounts a challenging experience with a development team characterized by personal differences and poor communication. The team comprised individuals accustomed to solo work, leading to clashes over work methodologies, technical approaches, and efficiency standards. Despite initial progress, the team's inability to integrate their efforts into functional and valuable outcomes grew evident. Attempts by the Product Owner to refine user stories and enhance backlog management were met with resistance, with some developers pivoting towards technical solutions instead.

Notable Quote:
"The feeling in the team was turned to be really bad and so on. And I tried to help. We had some other people also try to help. Eventually we kind of just weren't able to do it and the team was disbanded." — Antti Horelli [08:00]

This case culminated in the team's dissolution, leaving unresolved questions about the missing elements that could have fostered a more cohesive and productive environment.

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Lessons Learned and Alternative Approaches

Reflecting on the failed team dynamics, Antti suggests that establishing a stronger foundation at the outset could have preempted conflicts. This includes fostering mutual understanding, clarifying team purposes, and addressing communication barriers early on. Additionally, Antti highlights the compounded difficulty of managing a distributed team, where remote communication exacerbates personal and professional misunderstandings.

Notable Quote:
"Maybe I would have brought the team together if that had been possible. It wasn't in this case, but still." — Antti Horelli [10:11]

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Addressing Remote Team Challenges

Pasco expands on the unique challenges posed by remote and distributed teams, emphasizing the necessity for Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches to prioritize communication and conflict resolution proactively. He offers strategies such as:

• Early Conflict Resolution: Addressing disagreements before they escalate by scheduling dedicated meetings.
• Geographical Considerations: Acknowledging and adapting to time zone differences and communication barriers inherent in remote settings.
• Creating Informal Interaction Opportunities: Facilitating virtual "coffee chats" or informal meetings to replicate the spontaneous interactions that occur in co-located environments.

Notable Quote:
"Frontier after Corona, we go from co-located to distributed, and we forget that distributed is a totally different type of work than co-located." — Pasco Duarte [11:23]

Antti concurs, noting that remote work requires heightened awareness and adaptability to mitigate typical problems effectively.

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Conclusion

The episode underscores the critical role of effective communication, mutual understanding, and adaptability in building and maintaining collaborative teams, especially in remote settings. By sharing real-world experiences and practical strategies, Antti and Pasco provide valuable insights for Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches striving to overcome silos and foster cohesive, high-performing teams.

Pasco wraps up by encouraging listeners to rate and share the podcast, promoting it as a valuable resource for ongoing professional development.

Notable Quote:
"Remember that sharing is caring." — Pasco Duarte [13:48]

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Key Takeaways

• One-Piece Flow: Striving for completing one task at a time can enhance value delivery and team efficiency.
• Early Foundation Building: Establishing clear communication channels and mutual understanding from the team's inception is crucial.
• Remote Team Dynamics: Acknowledging the unique challenges of distributed teams and proactively addressing them can prevent conflicts and promote collaboration.
• Proactive Conflict Resolution: Addressing issues promptly before they escalate is essential in maintaining a healthy team environment.

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For more insights and actionable strategies, tune into the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast and consider attending the Global Agile Summit in Tallinn, Estonia.

Transcript

[Pasco Duarte]

Hi there. Pasco Duarte here, your host. I wanted to share a story with you. You know how sometimes Agile just feels like following another checklist when like processes and frameworks feel more important than what we are trying to achieve and sometimes even like handcuffs. I was talking to a customer of the Global Agile Summit and he used a term that kind of stuck in my he said, I have Agile fatigue. And I've heard that a lot from people since then. But here's the thing, it doesn't have to be this way. So we started thinking and at the Global Agile Summit, which is happening this May, we're bringing together practitioners who've actually done that, who've broken free from this, you know, install the framework kind of mindset. We want to focus the summit on real life, first person stories of Agile all succeeding that inspire you to action. We're talking real experiences, practical solutions, and of course, amazing insights from leaders like Gojkoacic, who will be one of the keynote speakers, and Jurgen Apelo, who will be one of the keynote speakers as well. If you're ready to leave the Agile fatigue behind, just join us in Dalit. The early birth tickets are now available@the globalagilesummit.com and mark your calendar. We will have workshops on May 18th, that's a Sunday. And then the conference itself will happen on May 19th and 20th of 2025 in Tallinn, Estonia. So let's make Agile exciting again. And remember, go to agile globalagilesummit.com that is, and get your early birth ticket. Now, it will only be available until early March, so grab it now. And now onto the episode. Hello everybody. Welcome to our Team Tuesday where we have this week, Antti Horelli. Hey, Anti. Welcome back.

[Antti Horelli]

Hello. Hello. Nice to be here on Tuesday again.

[Pasco Duarte]

Absolutely. And it's Team Tuesday. So we'll talk about a story of a team and how sometimes they create their own problems. But before we dive into that, Ante, share with us what was the book that most inspired you in your career as a Scrum master?

[Antti Horelli]

That's a really tough one. A lot of good material, a lot of good books out there. But the one I chose is actually not really straight out Scrum, but it is a book called this is Lean Resolving the Efficiency Paradox. It's by two Swedish professors called Mudig and Ostrom. And it's annoyingly, I don't have it here. I usually have it by my desk, but now I've loaned it. So it's in very good use and it's well written. It's not Too big. It's very approachable and for me it really helped me kind of crystallize my understanding about what is this flow that we talk about when we like talk about flow and Kanban flow in Scrum, I guess in a different perspective. What is flow? Efficiency and as. As opposed to resource efficiency. And how do you explain this to someone who isn't a methodology nerd? So this really helped me kind of, kind of get to a kind of slightly higher level. Especially when we think about how do we enhance the process of product development as a whole. Like from idea to proven value. How do you get that thing to flow? How does it make sense for someone to not maybe do the one thing they're really, really good at all the time? Why is that valuable, even though it feels intuitively very productive to do exactly that.

[Pasco Duarte]

So what would be like the short description that you would give? Let's say there's a. Well actually Luke, our faithful SCRUM master out there who really needs explain flow to his team and he needs some help. So anti let's help him out. Let's help Luke. How would you then describe Luke based on what you learned from. Sorry, flow to Luke based on what you learned from that book?

[Antti Horelli]

Well, first of all, I will pass you the book at some point to Luke. But bearing that I would say that trying to optimize getting one single thing done at a time, even though it doesn't feel that effective, it has these kind of non intuitive but once you look at them, very clear benefits and that is kind of what you are aiming for. So if you can go to completing one thing that creates value to the end user, to the customer, to the business or the organization internally, whatever it is you're doing. And aim for that. It's tough. It probably doesn't make sense to really in everyday work do exactly that. Have like a whole development team work on just one thing. Sometimes it's just not practical. But aim for that. Maybe do two things, whatever makes sense in your context. That would be, I don't know, my short description.

[Pasco Duarte]

Yeah, aim to one piece flow.

[Antti Horelli]

Yes.

[Pasco Duarte]

And of course we'll put the link in the show notes for people to go and check out the book. Now when we think about teams though, Antti shifting gears a little bit now we think of a group of people working well together and kind of performing, delivering what needs to be delivered. But that doesn't always happen. Sometimes teams create their own problems and you know, they might be caused by some external factors, but there are also internal factors in the Teams that cause problems. I don't know what story you have to share with us, but do share a story of that team. Tell us a little bit about the context and walk us through the steps of how those, I don't know, little behaviors or practices over time grew and started to become a problem for the team.

[Antti Horelli]

Okay, well, in my experience, I guess the kind of number one problem that has deteriorated teams I've worked with has usually been some sort of personal differences, some sort of communication or.

[Pasco Duarte]

So tell us the story of a team. Like where was this conflict happening?

[Antti Horelli]

All right, so some years ago we had a development team, it had a scrum master. It had been kind of put together, I guess a bit more from people who were used to doing solo work. There were some, maybe strong personalities, there maybe some different opinions on what is good work, what is good development work, what is good tech work, what is efficiency. And then when these people started working together, there became clashes. The team itself, it was kind of cross competence, but still somehow not everything was probably there. Also in the competence area, first things started looking pretty good. People did work, things were, things were happening. But then at some point we kind of realized that things weren't clicking. A lot of work was being done. People were kind of, you could see that people were like doing a lot of work. But still it didn't click into functional code or especially into value for the end user. Things just didn't like come together. And our product owner tried to kind of solve it one way by doing more, maybe a refinement, more better user stories, putting more effort into that. The developers, at least some of them thought this was maybe more of a tech problem. They went kind of through into that area and did a lot of tech, tech refinement and maybe there were some disagreements there on how to do things. And at some point I was an agile coach at this point, so I tried to come kind of in and help and try to iron out what's the problem here. Really like people were getting really stressed out because the communication was so bad. The feeling in the team was turned to be really bad and so on. And I tried to help. We had some other people also try to help. Eventually we kind of just weren't able to do it and the team was disbanded. So we didn't really figure out what was the key ingredient that was missing. Maybe it just didn't. Maybe the people were so different that there wasn't the recipe for success. Maybe there was some confidence missing still. That's maybe one reason why things weren't coming together and the team grew frustrated about itself because of this and all that. So yeah, that was kind of.

[Pasco Duarte]

So a lot of hypothesis of what might have happened or could have happened differently. And obviously we can't solve all the problems we're facing. Right? Like sometimes we just have to say, hey, this is not good enough. Let's hit pause, reset and start again. But if you had the chance of going back and replaying that story, what would you have done differently? Ante.

[Antti Horelli]

I have to say, because I did kind of try some things and they didn't really work. At least not well, not good enough. There was some positive, but not, not really enough. Maybe I would, when the team first got together, maybe at that point I would try to maybe build a strong, stronger foundation, maybe try to get, get some of these possible communication problems or, or kind of point of view problems to the surface like earlier. Try to get a better mutual understanding about how does this team work, what is our purpose? Okay, that was kind of clear what the purpose was actually, but, but still, how do we go about doing our thing and all of that? I guess one thing that compounded this whole thing was that the team wasn't co located, so they were. All communication was pretty much online, or at least most of it, and it was getting these personal issues discussed. Well, online is more difficult, so it probably wouldn't be. I would have brought the team together if that had been possible. It wasn't in this case, but still.

[Pasco Duarte]

And one of the things like what you just said, the team was remote and that made the communication and solving, sorting out personal issues a lot harder. One of the things that is clear is that we can't always affect the geographical context. Right? Like sometimes teams are just distributed and there's nothing we can do about it. But when that happens, as Scrum masters and agile coaches, we do need to bring that as a core aspect of how the team works. Like for example, we always know that when there's a conflict, it's much better to talk things out earlier than later, right before the conflict escalates. So that's one thing we can try out in a remote setting quite easily. We just book a meeting. Right? And even when the time zone differences is a big problem, and sometimes it is, there's still a chance of being able to book a meeting and get people to talk. But there's also other aspects. Sometimes bringing a team together is a good idea and sometimes splitting a team apart is a good idea. Right? Like finding out where are the conflict lines and can we create two subgroups, for example, that have less conflict within them and try to remove the conflict through that. And of course, that means more work. Right. Like the PO has more work, the architect has more work or whatever. But it allows the team to function. So I think this aspect of considering remote as a core property of the team is very important because very often, especially after Corona, we go from co located to distributed, and we forget that distributed is a totally different type of work than collocated is.

[Antti Horelli]

Yeah. And you have to be. How do you say, More aware of some things. What are. That may be the typical problems to react to very, very early when distributed. You have to be kind of more on in touch. Some things you can get away with more if you're co located.

[Pasco Duarte]

Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of conflicts that get solved by just having a chat over a coffee in the coffee room. That cannot happen. That type of conversation cannot happen in a remote setting unless we make space for it. Right. And it's possible to make space for it. But again, more work. But it is possible.

[Antti Horelli]

Yeah. Yeah, that's very true. I agree. I agree fully.

[Pasco Duarte]

Absolutely. Great story. Thank you for sharing that ante.

[Antti Horelli]

Thank you.

[Pasco Duarte]

We really hope you liked our show. And if you did, why not rate this podcast on Stitcher or itunes, Share this podcast and let other Scrum masters know about this valuable resource for their work. Remember that sharing is caring.