The Curious Strategist and The Overwhelmed Task Manager, Two Contrasting Product Owner Patterns | Sara Caldwell

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Summary

Episode: The Curious Strategist and The Overwhelmed Task Manager, Two Contrasting Product Owner Patterns | Sara Caldwell
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Sara Caldwell
Release Date: December 13, 2024

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte welcomes Sara Caldwell, an experienced Agile Coach and Certified Scrum Master, to delve into the contrasting patterns observed in Product Owners (POs). The discussion aims to illuminate effective and ineffective PO behaviors, providing actionable strategies for Scrum Masters to enhance team dynamics and project outcomes.

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Identifying the Worst Product Owner Anti-Pattern

Sara Caldwell opens the conversation by addressing what she considers the most detrimental anti-pattern observed in Product Owners:

“Probably the worst anti-pattern from a PO perspective... is related to a PO only being able, based upon the system, to perform their duties as a task, not a role.”
[00:50]

Sara explains that such POs are often not dedicated full-time to their teams, leading to significant challenges:

• Availability Issues: These POs are frequently unavailable during crucial team events, which results in delays and confusion.
• Communication Barriers: Reliance on asynchronous communication methods like emails or ticketing systems hampers real-time problem-solving and understanding.
• Lack of Engagement: POs relegating their role to mere task completion without active participation in the team’s daily activities.

She emphasizes that this pattern is often not a result of incompetence but due to POs juggling multiple responsibilities:

“They're not bad, it's just that they likely have one to two other day jobs that they're doing.”
[01:25]

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Strategies to Mitigate the Anti-Pattern

When confronted with an overwhelmed PO, Sara advocates for a nuanced, long-term approach rather than immediate corrections or shaming. She outlines her methodology:

1. Partnership and Flexibility:
   • Meeting the PO Where They Are: Understanding the PO’s current capacity and constraints.
   • Selective Engagement: Prioritizing their attendance in critical meetings like sprint planning and refinement to maximize their impact.

“If you're working in Scrum, like refinement or sprint planning... make sure it is the most valuable meeting for them and the team.”
[02:50]

2. Leading by Example:
   • Assisting with Responsibilities: Scrum Masters can take on certain PO tasks, such as backlog prioritization, to alleviate the PO’s burden while demonstrating effective practices.
   • Creating a Collaborative Environment: Encouraging shared ownership of tasks to foster team cohesion and collective responsibility.

“I'm really trying to partner with that product owner and meet them where they're at... demonstrating the way that this could work.”
[03:45]

3. Systemic Change and Metrics:
   • Implementing Metrics: Tracking flow, quality, and value to highlight the impact of the PO’s limited availability.
   • Revealing System Inefficiencies: Using data to illustrate how current practices affect team performance without placing blame.

“A combination of doing and then kind of showing the pain or showing the impact of their time spent with the team can really help them understand...”
[04:10]

Sara notes that transforming this anti-pattern is a gradual process, often spanning several months, requiring persistent effort and strategic conversations with leadership to secure the PO’s full-time commitment or to consider external hiring.

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Contrasting with an Exemplary Product Owner

Transitioning from challenges to successes, Sara shares her experience with an outstanding PO, highlighting the qualities that set them apart:

1. Continuous Learning and Curiosity:
   • Proactive Education: The PO actively sought knowledge through books, meetups, and engaging with the Agile community.
   • Adaptability: Demonstrated a growth mindset by continuously improving their skills and understanding of the PO role.

“He was a very curious, continuous learner... he did all the things that we would like to all do when we're learning a new role.”
[08:00]

2. Strategic and Technical Acumen:

   • Entrepreneurial Mindset: Combined strategic thinking with an understanding of the technical aspects of the product.
   • Effective Communication: Could grasp and address technical concerns, facilitating smoother team interactions and realistic project timelines.

3. Fostering Team Dynamics:

   • Building Connections: Went beyond professional interactions by participating in team-building activities like playing Dungeons and Dragons, recognizing the importance of personal bonds within the team.
   • Humility and Approachability: Avoided wielding positional power to maintain a collaborative and egalitarian team environment.

“He played Dungeons and Dragons with his team... he understood that this is how the team connected, and he wanted to be there with him.”
[10:01]

Sara underscores that such POs not only excel individually but also elevate the entire team’s performance through their inclusive and empathetic approach.

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Conclusion and Key Takeaways

As the episode draws to a close, Sara emphasizes the importance of continuous growth and adaptability for both Scrum Masters and Product Owners. She encourages leveraging tools like the Sprint Checklist to facilitate meaningful conversations about PO involvement and to strategically advance towards more effective collaboration.

The discussion highlights that effective Scrum Masters play a crucial role in bridging gaps, fostering open communication, and nurturing the professional development of Product Owners to ensure cohesive and high-performing Agile teams.

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Connect with Sara Caldwell

For listeners interested in learning more about Sara Caldwell’s insights and work, she can be reached on LinkedIn:

LinkedIn: Sara Caldwell

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Join the Scrum Master Toolbox Community

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Visit: scrummasterpodcast.com

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, focusing on the critical discussions between Vasco Duarte and Sara Caldwell regarding Product Owner patterns, strategies for improvement, and the impact of exemplary leadership within Agile teams.

Transcript

[Vasco Duart]

Hi, I'm your host, Vasco Duart. Welcome to the Scrum Master Toolbox podcast where we share tips and tricks from Scrum Masters around the world. Every day we bring you inspiring answers to important questions that all Scrum Masters.

[Unknown Host]

Face day after day. Hello everybody. Welcome to our TGIF and product owner episode this week with Sarah Caldwell. Hey, Sarah, welcome back.

[Sarah Caldwell]

Hi. Happy Friday.

[Unknown Host]

Happy Friday. And happy, happy Product Owner Day. At least here on the podcast, that's how it goes. So we'll investigate what great product owners look like and what they do in a minute. But first, Sarah, share with us what might have been potentially the worst product owner anti pattern you've witnessed in your career.

[Sarah Caldwell]

Yeah, so probably the worst anti pattern from a PO perspective that I've experienced is related to a PO only being able, based upon the system, to perform their duties as a task, not a role. And they weren't dedicated and, or rather full time to that particular team. And what that, you know, the problem there and the experience, the negative experience that I have seen with not having a product owner as a full time member of the team is that they're not available for questions during team events. They're not available to address concerns in real time, which ultimately leads to some delays, some confusion, some frustration because we're having to try and find additional time with that product owner. We're having to email, we're doing it asynchronously. And that does remind me a lot of this big, you know, this requirements document where shared documentation is not shared understanding. So just because somebody wrote it in an email doesn't necessarily, or a ticketing system doesn't necessarily create the understanding within the person that's reading them. And so when, when product owners are just performing the task, not the role, I often find that they're just kind of like handing the work over and just, just get it done. Just get it done. And it's not because they're bad, it's just that they likely have one to two other day jobs that they're doing. And you know, I can talk about how I work to solve this problem.

[Unknown Host]

Go ahead.

[Sarah Caldwell]

How I work to use to solve the problem is really a long game. There's no easy answer here because it's, we're working with people and we're working with change and we're often working with change not at a person level, but at a system level. And shaming them into getting to being at the team and being at these events really isn't efficient or effective. In my experience. It oftentimes pushes people further away because they get defensive, because, you know, they're likely trying their best. They just don't have time. They have two other jobs, and so sometimes you end up seeing them double down on the way that they're working or withdraw completely. And so what I would do is I really try and partner with that product owner and meet them where they're at, wherever that could be. And if they can't come to every meeting, maybe I select a few that I think are really important for them to be there for the team. And I often find that ends up being like, if you're working in Scrum, like refinement or sprint planning. And then I work to make it so it's convenient for them to be there. And I run the heck out of that meeting to make sure it is the most valuable meeting for them and the team. And I try not to get too caught up in responsibilities here. Right. There are some things that the po, quote unquote, should be doing, like prioritizing the backlog. But if they're serving dual roles and they're, you know, they're here, but they have a lot on their plate, I might lean in and help up a little bit here by doing and showing the P.O. how it's done. And this can help in two ways. One, it demonstrates, you know, the way that this could work, and then it helps them understand that I'm here to help, not here to shame, not here to tell them, you know, to check off that they haven't done these activities and report back. I do recognize it's a slippery slope because you're not trying to do it for them, but you're really just trying to ultimately help accomplish a task. Right. And that's kind of what we're doing when we're thinking about a Scrum team, is that we're all kind of owning the work a little bit and we're owning the outcome of that work. And so.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, no, I was going to agree. Right. Because it's a big responsibility for us as Scrum masters to lead by example. And in this particular case, we need to lead by example first towards the team, like showing how you can engage with and involve the po, even when they are not always available. And then, of course, also for the po, not only for them to understand what is expected. That's part of it. But also in this case, to help help them out. Because they might be torn. Right. Like, they. They might want to be the best PO possible, but, you know, they. They have other demands from other Places that they need to attend to. And, and this showing by example, which serves the team and the po, I think can be very powerful for us as scrum masters.

[Sarah Caldwell]

Exactly. And again, it's a dance, I find in these roles it's a lot about dancing, dancing with the system, dancing with the team, dancing with the change. And you know, you don't just want to stop there, right. Like you just want to stop at just modeling. What I also like to do in combination with that is focus on collecting metrics. So I like to have a myriad of metrics like, you know, relate to flow, quality and value. But particularly in this example, I like to focus on like flow through the system, churn, velocity, volatility, quality, any sort of kind of like rework that can show the impact of the PO Bean and not being with the team. And I think a combination of doing and then kind of showing the pain or showing the impact of their, their time spent with the team can really help them understand like what a new normal can look like and not. And just kind of showing them like revealing the system to itself is what we often talk about and not criticizing or shaming them. And then I have found that ultimately and it doesn't happen right away, right. This can take, this can be a six month process. The PO starts having conversations with their leadership about needing to be on the team full time or we sometimes even pivot that conversation to hiring externally to be able to get somebody to come.

[Unknown Host]

In and help on the team and all those options are possible. I really like how you talk about dancing with the system, revealing the system, obviously systems thinking language coming out there. I also wanted to mention something which is like a concrete tool that you can use in order to talk to the po, the product owner, Sprint Checklist, which the idea of that is just to create the facilitated conversation about what is there in, or how can they be involved at the moment. Right. And then discuss. Okay, but this is where we want to go, so what's the next step? And then how do we get there? Right. So it's not just meeting them where they are, that's a big part of it, perhaps the most important, but also to talk about. But over time we want to go in that direction. How do we get there?

[Sarah Caldwell]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think it's, yeah, it's not, we're not stagnant here. We're continuously growing. And the more training and articles and artifacts and knowledge that you can help the PO understand, the more they're, you know, they're Going to be met to where you are and where you're trying to help the team go.

[Unknown Host]

Absolutely. And they will grow, of course, as product owners as well. But there aren't only bad or torn product owners. There are some amazing product owners out there as well. Sara. So share with us the best product owner you've ever worked with. How did they work?

[Sarah Caldwell]

Oh, he was. He was great. So one of the best POS that I worked with. You know, the feeling is the vibe is that they just got it right, but, you know, they. We all know that we're not always born with different skills. And so engagement. Getting to know him, he was a very curious, continuous learner. He read the books, he asked people's opinions, he went to meetups. He did all the things that we would like to all do when we're learning a new role or understanding more about our role or leading and best practices within our role. And he was also just very strategic, had a very entrepreneurial mindset, and also knew a little bit about the technical aspects of the product, like probably what we would say, just enough to be dangerous, but he could understand directionally what his team was talking about when they were expressing concerns or saying, hey, I think this is going to be taking a little bit longer than we anticipated, or this. This is going to be actually really complex when maybe the product owner had been previously told that it's simple. And another really cool thing that this product owner did that I just, you know, will always remember and admire is he appreciated the importance of teaming dynamics and worked to really lower that dynamic. I think sometimes, depending upon what level in an organization and what kind of organization, POS can have this unintentional political kind of power based upon their title or who they report to or whatever the case might be. But what this product owner did is that he played D and D Dungeons and Dragons with his team. Now, he wasn't, you know, super keen on playing D and D or taking it up as a hobby, but he understood that this is how the team connected, and he wanted to be there with him because he realized how paramount it is to have that connection with the team.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, creating connection between human beings is also a very important aspect of the work that we do. And when a product owner is around that understands that. That is amazing. Sarah, that's been. Wow, quite a lot of stories that you've shared with us this week. Thank you for all of that. But as we're getting close to the end, where can people find out more about you and the work that you're doing.

[Sarah Caldwell]

So right now I am on LinkedIn, Sarah Caldwell. It's really how you can find me. I don't have a big presence on social media, just really LinkedIn. I'd love to, but I'm spending so much time nerding out on various topics that I don't have a place to kind of unilaterally connect. But Sarah called me.

[Unknown Host]

Don't rush it, because of course that time will come as well. Sarah, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.

[Sarah Caldwell]

Yeah, thank you again for letting me nerd out. And thank everyone for listening.

[Vasco Duart]

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