Podcast Summary: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast

Episode: The Day I Discovered I Was a Scrum Project Manager, Not a Scrum Master
Guest: Karim Harbott
Host: Vasco Duarte
Date: November 3, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Vasco Duarte welcomes agile consultant, trainer, and author Karim Harbott to unpack the journey many Scrum Masters face: accidentally falling into the traps of traditional project management while learning Scrum. Karim candidly shares a formative experience that shifted his perspective from managing to enabling teams, highlighting the core difference between "doing Agile" and "being Agile." The conversation dives deep into the dangers of old habits, the transformative power of coaching, and the essential evolution from command-and-control to facilitation and empowerment in Scrum.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Karim’s Accidental Scrum Master Journey

• Karim begins by sharing his unintentional path to becoming a Scrum Master after a background in software engineering and traditional project management.
• Early misconceptions: He equated the Scrum Master role with being a "Scrum Project Manager"—simply delivering work in sprints instead of via a waterfall process.
  • "I was the kind of Scrum Project Manager, which is the same thing I was doing before, but just delivering in two week sprints." (03:30, Karim)

Waterfall to Scrum: Same Habits, Different Labels

• Karim discusses how he initially continued traditional project manager activities under the Scrum label, believing that more planning and more direction would fix delivery issues.
• He admits to devouring Scrum and Agile literature but using that knowledge to direct and control the team rather than coaching or empowering them.
  • "What I found was I was basically telling everyone what to do at every point… but it was kind of working, right? Everyone was just kind of doing what I said and we were flowing along and it was all right—until I went away." (07:09, Karim)

The Turning Point: A Team’s Collapse and an Epiphany

• When Karim took a couple of weeks off, the team he’d managed so tightly fell apart, revealing that his approach hadn't built any self-sufficiency.
• He attended a London agile meetup where Jeff Watts spoke about coaching and the true role of the Scrum Master.
• This became a pivotal moment of self-realization and professional growth.
  • "It was a real epiphany. I was thinking to myself, I don't do any of that. I've been telling them what to do and really what I should have been doing is helping them be a better team such that they know what to do. I wasn't growing their capability at all." (08:53, Karim)

Expanding the Scrum Master Skillset

• Karim describes the shift in focus: from knowledge of Agile frameworks to skills in coaching, facilitation, organizational change, and understanding team dynamics.
• He acknowledges the importance of learning about the human and systemic sides of team dynamics, not just methodology.
  • "I realized there's so much more to being a Scrum Master than knowing about Agile. I learned about team facilitation, team coaching… psychology and the human side." (09:25, Karim)

Distinctions Between Project Management and Scrum Mastery

• Vasco and Karim dissect the roots of project management (industrial-era task management) and contrast it with Agile’s social, adaptive approach.
• They discuss misconceptions—often reinforced by even foundational Scrum literature—about the overlap between project management and Scrum Mastery.
  • "The more complex the work is, the more you need the people with their hands on the keyboard, mitigating risk… We push that down to the people who have the information and we create the environment." (12:12, Karim)

Context-Appropriate Approaches and Continuous Learning

• Karim emphasizes that project management isn’t "bad"—it's just appropriate for different contexts.
• He advocates for finding the right tool for the job and continuing to learn, grow, and adapt as a Scrum Master.
  • "One is designed for a different type of work. Once we realize there are different types of work and we need to use a tool appropriate for the context, the conversation becomes a lot easier. It's not good versus bad." (13:08, Karim)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Scrum Master Project Manager Trap:
  "I went off and researched everything I knew about Scrum and I was basically Scrum Project Manager, which is the same thing I was doing before, but just delivering in two week sprints."
  — Karim Harbott (03:30)

• On Knowledge vs. Capability:
  "I wasn't growing their capability at all. And that was a big moment for me.... If that hadn't happened, I don't know, maybe I'd still be telling people what to do."
  — Karim Harbott (09:02)

• On Coaching, Not Commanding:
  "Your job as a Scrum Master is to enable the team to be more effective, not to tell them what to do."
  — Jeff Watts (as cited by Karim Harbott, 08:27)

• On Contextualizing Project Management and Scrum:
  "I don't, I'm not anti project management. I think it's a tool, it works in a context. And this is a tool, it works in a different context when the volatility, the complexity, the uncertainty is higher."
  — Karim Harbott (13:00)

Important Timestamps

• 01:11–02:20: Karim introduces himself and his background in software engineering and project management.
• 03:30–05:02: Discussion of project management habits carried into early Scrum Mastering; misconceptions.
• 07:09–10:20: Karim recounts his turning point: team collapse, meetup with Jeff Watts, realization about enabling vs. managing.
• 11:00–13:12: Conversation on the philosophical and practical distinctions between project management and Scrum Mastery.
• 13:12–14:08: Reflections on tool/context fit and the continued evolution of Agile roles.

Themes and Takeaways

• Evolution is essential: Experienced Scrum Masters often start out clinging to old project management paradigms but must evolve beyond them.
• Shift from control to enablement: True Scrum Mastery is about enabling teams, coaching, and creating environments where teams self-manage and grow.
• Context matters: Both project management and Agile/Scrum have their place—choose the right approach for the type of work.
• Continuous learning: Professional growth never ends—facilitation, coaching, psychology, and organizational change are all critical disciplines for Scrum Masters.

In the Words of Karim Harbott

"I went off and studied, studied, studied for the next decade to try and get good at this stuff... I realized there's so much more to being a Scrum Master than knowing about Agile."
(09:42)

A must-listen for anyone straddling the line between old and new ways of delivering value, and for those committed to evolving from project managers to true Agile enablers.