The Firewall Product Owner, Turning PO Anti-Patterns Into Opportunities for Growth | Iryna Stelmakh

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: "The Firewall Product Owner, Turning PO Anti-Patterns Into Opportunities for Growth" with Iryna Stelmakh

Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Iryna Stelmakh
Date: March 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, Agile Coach and Scrum Master Iryna Stelmakh joins host Vasco Duarte to examine the "firewall" product owner anti-pattern—a situation where the product owner acts as a barrier rather than a bridge between business and development teams. Iryna shares firsthand stories of challenging PO behaviors, how these can hinder team effectiveness, and turns these anti-patterns into learning opportunities. The episode also contrasts these pitfalls with the traits of exceptional product owners, offering listeners practical steps for fostering better collaboration and ownership in Scrum teams.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Firewall” Product Owner Anti-Pattern

• Nature of the Problem (01:32 - 03:56):

  • Iryna describes a recurring issue where the product owner acts merely as a "proxy," lacking true authority or answers, constantly deferring team questions to unknown external parties.
  • Frequent shifting of priorities and unclear backlog items left the development team with no solid product direction.

  "One of the worst product owner anti-patterns I have experienced is what I call like proxy product owner... every decision requires another conversation with someone else in the business."
  — Iryna Stelmakh (01:32)

  • The product owner becomes a "firewall," preventing direct access to necessary business or market information, limiting the team's understanding and ability to deliver value.

  "As a Scrum team, we didn’t know the business side as good as the product owner. And in this case, we couldn’t reach out the market representatives... because we didn’t have the power of possession... it was pretty hard to get those answers from our product owner. Because it was as a firewall, as you said."
  — Iryna Stelmakh (03:02)

2. Turning Problems Into Opportunities

• Responding to Anti-Patterns (04:20 - 06:04):

  • Iryna emphasizes using problems as opportunities for improvement—her formula focuses on escalation paired with constructive suggestions.
  • She suggests involving business analysts or other supporting roles to bridge communication gaps or to extend the PO's capacity if necessary.

  "Usually I turn problems into opportunities and extensions... I would escalate and bring suggestions how we could manage that or extend the role or change the way of the communication..."
  — Iryna Stelmakh (04:20)

  • For overstretched product owners, upscaling with additional support (such as business analysts) can restore clarity and direction for the team.

3. Traits of Great Product Owners

• Characteristics and Positive Impact (06:47 - 08:50):

  • Deep understanding of the market and users
  • Transparent communication of business logic—explaining not only 'what' but 'why'
  • Fosters partnership with the team, engaging them as collaborators, not mere executors

  "Great product owners do three things extremely well. First of all, they understand the market and the users. Second, they can explain the business logic behind decisions, not just what to build, but why it matters... Third, they work closely with the team and treat them as a partner in solving problems."
  — Iryna Stelmakh (06:47)

  • When the PO shares business rationale, the team becomes more motivated and connected to the product’s purpose.

  "The best product owner I worked with didn’t just manage backlog items... The product owner was responsible for this business mindset sharing... to help us build that partnership between the team and client and user."
  — Iryna Stelmakh (07:40)

  • Vasco underscores the importance of context and value communication:

  "If the product owner just comes in and drops tasks and doesn’t explain why... there’s no understanding of value in the team. Then the team becomes just a pair of hands... To create value, you need to understand a lot more."
  — Vasco Duarte (08:50)

4. Real-World Lesson and Solution

• When PO Changes Are Needed (09:33 - 11:01):

  • Iryna recounts a situation where the initial PO’s lack of engagement resulted in empty, unhelpful user stories and team frustration.
  • The solution was a change in personnel—after recognizing the issue, the client replaced the PO, resulting in better performance and morale.

  "Product owner, it’s like a high and top role in the collaboration... Important to have the right person there. In our case, we solved it by changing the person... in two months, the role was replaced by another product owner representative."
  — Iryna Stelmakh (10:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Proxy Product Owners:
  "Every time when that product owner was saying to us like, I need to go to ask someone, he didn’t bring any answer, actually. So we were working without the product mindset..."
  — Iryna Stelmakh (02:20)

• Strength in Escalation:
  "If I see the I work with opportunities... I turn problems into the opportunities and extensions. This is the formula that I use."
  — Iryna Stelmakh (04:24)

• Building Commitment:
  "Great product owners are able to create that understanding. And because they do that, then the team is much more committed and energized to work in that product."
  — Vasco Duarte (09:10)

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Important Timestamps

• [01:32] – Iryna shares her anti-pattern story: the "proxy" or "firewall" PO
• [03:56] – Vasco asks: What would you do differently?
• [04:20] – Iryna describes her problem-solving and escalation approach
• [06:47] – Traits of great product owners
• [08:50] – Vasco and Iryna discuss the value of business context
• [09:33] – When a PO change leads to team success

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Tone & Language

Throughout the episode, the discussion is candid, constructive, and deeply practical—full of real-world examples and tangible advice. The conversational tone brings warmth and relatability to the challenges and solutions described, making the episode accessible for both seasoned Scrum Masters and those newer to agile roles.

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Connect with the Guest

• LinkedIn: "My name is Irina Stelmakh. I would help you to build your career, your business or your real life. Welcome."
  — Iryna Stelmakh (11:23)

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For listeners seeking actionable lessons on improving product owner collaboration, this episode provides illuminating real-world stories and frameworks for turning common anti-patterns into growth opportunities for the whole Scrum team.

Transcript

[A]

Hello, everyone. Quick heads up before we start today's episode. The Global Agile Summit is happening on May 4th. Yes, May 4th. And even with a big blowout Star wars party, you have to join. It will be online and it's like always free to attend. We have four tracks this year that I'm really excited about and I think you will too. Stick around to the end of the episode to know what they are. If you want to check it out already now you can check it out at bit ly globalagile 26. That's the numerals 2 and 6 at the end. So one more time, that's bit ly globalagile 2, 6, all one word, all lowercase. And 2 and 6 are the numerals 2 and 6. So stick around till the end of the episode and I'll tell you what's in store. But for now, on to today's episode. Hello, everybody. Welcome to our product owner and of course TGIF episode this week with Irina Stellmak. Hey, Irina, welcome back.

[B]

Hi. Hi. Hi, guys. Hi, Moscow. Happy to be here.

[A]

Happy Friday. Happy Friday. All right, we'll talk about great product owners in a minute, but before that, share with us. Irina, what was potentially the worst product owner anti pattern you've witnessed in your career?

[B]

Oh, that's so tough. Yeah, I had many situations actually, because product owner, Scrum Master and Scrum Team, this is like the most. The core. The core, yeah. And this is the most important roles. So one of the worst product owner anti patterns I have experienced is what I call like proxy product owner. One on one project that I had, a product owner would constantly say, I need to go to ask someone, I need to go to the market to ask. I need to go to. To find those answers. Which is fine, you know, but every decision requires another conversation with someone else in the business. So that's why that's good. But as a result, backlog items lacked clarity. Prioritize changes frequently, like priorities changes frequently. And the team couldn't understand the real product direction. And every time when that product owner was saying to us like, I need to go to ask someone, he didn't bring any answer, actually. So we were working without the product mindset.

[A]

Product owner was not only a proxy, but it was almost like a firewall.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that's a good naming, actually. Yeah. Because as a Scrum team, we didn't know the business side as good as the product owner knows. Right. Like generally. And in this case, we couldn't reach out the market representatives for asking them Just because we didn't have the power of possession, we didn't have the time for that even because we had like different things to be done from our side. And that's why we didn't know even by the by, we didn't know even who are on another side, you know. And that's why it was pretty hard to reach those people even to ask and pretty hard to get those answers from our product owner. Because it was as a firewall, as you said. Yeah, that's right.

[A]

Ouch. When you think about this kind of, let's say, situation, right, like where the product owner is acting like a distance, a gap creator firewall, what are the things that you would do differently if you had to go back and kind of relive that story again?

[B]

I would like to say that. I would escalate that point with the suggestions because this is the way how usually I work. If I see the I work with opportunities, like my main point is to work with opportunities with account extensions and of course with the problems. This is not a secret as well. So in this case we have the problem and usually I turn problems into the opportunities and extensions. This is the formula that I use. And I would make the same with that case. I would escalate and I would bring the suggestions how we could manage that or extend the role or change the way of the communication between the business side and technical side. Yes. Or ask about any other point of the view from my managers who are responsible actually for that part of the communication. What are the other ways they see as the possible ways to connect those two parts? Or I would suggest to bring them business analyst, for example, for helping product owner to do like to conduct that those connections. Because probably like in my case he was quite busy. That's why it was not enough time for him to do his to fulfill his role on our project. And I would make like the upscale with a business analyst.

[A]

And that's actually a good framing even for internal teams. Right. Turn a problem into an opportunity and an extension. Of course you need to be able to do that extension internally. That might not always be so easy. But just as you framed it, right, like discover a problem, turn it into an opportunity and in your case an extension. If it's an internal team, it might mean something else. But I really like that frame. Now, not all product owners are difficult. Some are actually amazing to work with. And that's the story we would like to hear next. Irina. So share with us the best product owner you've ever worked with. How did they work.

[B]

You are so right saying that. We have really great product owners as well. And in contrast, like great product owners do three things extremely well. First of all, they understand the market and the users. And like second, they can explain the business logic behind decisions, not just what to build, but why it matters. So the Scrum team may understand it as well and add the suggestions as well. And the third, they work closely with the team and treat them as a partner in solving problems, not just executors of tasks. Otherwise, again, we have the lack of transparency, we have the lack of clarity and we are in trouble, you know, so, yeah, the best product owner I worked with didn't just manage backlog items because we were able to manage the backlog items. We were able to move them from the backlog product backlog to the Sprint backlog. And in my case, the product owner was responsible for this business mindset sharing to give us a perspective and to give us a possibility to contribute more than the technical part to be like to help us to build that partnership between the team and client and user, between the client whom we are working for and product owner. And everything was set up around the goal. That was the main thing, the main profit of that. The great product owners, they own the product vision and they made sure that team understood how they work, created real value.

[A]

Yeah, that's actually a very good point. Right, because that's what creates the allegiance, the loyalty to the product owner. Right. If the product owner just comes in and drops tasks and doesn't explain why the tasks are important, who the customers are, how it benefits the customer, there's no understanding of value in the team. Then the team becomes just a pair of hands. Right? Like it's, I can, I can type what you told me to type, but that's all right. But in fact, to create value you need to understand a lot more. And great product owners are able to create that understanding. And because they do that, then the team is much more committed and energized to work in that product.

[B]

Exactly. Because, you know, the situation I face up is a situation where the product owner just was responsible for creating the user stories, but actually the user story was empty. And for the fulfillment of the user stories, the team were responsible for the fulfillment. And I was responsible, but I wasn't the person who was aware about the market. So deep as I should be in case to be able to add to those stories. And the same thing was with team. And that's why I could remember that case as a good lesson learned how it shouldn't be. Not because someone of the team or me was lazy or so, but just because it was useless, you know, that's why Product owner, it's like a high and top role in the collaboration with the Scrum team and with Scrum Master and with the marketing business. And it's really important to have the right person there. In our case we solve it by changing the person. Thank God we had a really great client and he realized that it would be pretty hard to proceed with that guy who joined us. So in two months the role was replaced by another product owner representative.

[A]

And that's great when we can do that, especially if they turn out to be then the new person turned out to be then great product owners. Of course that's what we hope. Irina, it's been a pleasure. You've shared so many insights and story with us this week. Thank you for all of that. Before we go, if people want to know more about you and the work that you're doing, where should they go?

[B]

I would like to invite all of our audience and our people who are listening us now to LinkedIn. My name is Irina Stellmach. I would help you to build your career, your business or your real life. Welcome.

[A]

Absolutely. And we'll definitely put all of those links or the LinkedIn page link in the show notes and why not everybody reach out, ask a question, share a story. This is how we learn as a community. Irena, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.

[B]

Thank you, Vasco, for being invited. It was a pleasure to be here with you.

[A]

Hi there friends. Thanks for sticking around till the end of the episode. So let me tell you what's coming on May 4th. We're running the Global Agile Summit. It will be online and I want you there this year. We have four tracks and each one is built around real conversations with practitioners. No slides, no keynote theater, just honest interviews with people doing the work, just like you. The first track is AI in Organizations where practitioners show what actually works. No hype, just AI that makes your Monday better. Happy Monday, everybody. And then we have the People Track. Honest conversations about putting humans at the center of how we work and keeping them there. And third is Agile in Construction. And yes, I really mean brick and mortar construction. Lean and agile. Actual job sites. Field leaders removing waste. Teams transforming how buildings get built. Stay tuned for what I think will be a super track on Agile in construction. And the fourth track is Agile in Gaming. How game studios ship without burning out. Agile inside the creative pressure cooker over the years. We've had more than 12,000 participants since 2017, the time of the first summit organized with the podcast, and this year we're making it easier than ever to join. You can register for free and get access to the summit sessions live during the event week. That's May 4th to May 6th. Or you can grab the Practitioner Pass and get immediate access to last year's keynotes from Jurgen Apollo, Goy Koadzic and Mirete Kangas right now, even before the summit starts. So grab your Practitioner Pass and start learning today. Head on over to bitly globalagile 26. That's 2, 6. The numerals 2 and 6 sign up and I'll see you on May 4th. And one more time, here we go. Bit ly global agile 26, all lowercase, all one word, and 26, that's the numeral 2 and the numeral 6. I'll see you on the conference floor.