The Great Product Owner: Leadership Skills Make the Difference | Marina Lazovic

Summary

Podcast Summary: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast - "The Great Product Owner: Leadership Skills Make the Difference" Featuring Marina Lazovic

Release Date: March 28, 2025

In this insightful episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Oscar engages in a deep conversation with Marina Lazovic, an Agile Coach and Certified Scrum Master, focusing on the pivotal role of leadership skills in effective Product Ownership. The discussion delves into common anti-patterns observed in Product Owners (POs), strategies to mitigate these issues, and the attributes that distinguish exceptional Product Owners in Agile environments.

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Introduction

The episode kicks off with Oscar introducing Marina Lazovic and setting the stage for a candid discussion about Product Ownership within Agile frameworks.

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The Anti-Pattern: Lack of Understanding of the Team

Marina highlights a significant anti-pattern she has observed among Product Owners: a lack of awareness regarding their team's strengths, weaknesses, and overall dynamics.

Marina Lazovic [01:44]: "One big one that I found in some product owners is like not really being aware of their team's strengths and weaknesses or you know, their team, what exactly is their team?"

This disconnect often leads to unrealistic expectations and misaligned project goals, adversely affecting team performance and product quality.

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Real-Life Example of the Anti-Pattern

To illustrate, Marina shares a scenario where a PO fails to recognize the team's capacity and skill levels, resulting in overburdened junior developers struggling to meet unrealistic delivery timelines.

Marina Lazovic [03:06]: "If the product owner doesn't really understand the skill set of his team or it just doesn't have to be junior developers, he is not, he's expecting... they're expecting them to really briefly jump into something else."

This misalignment not only hampers productivity but also leads to increased bugs and compromised quality as the team rushes to meet unattainable goals.

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Solutions to Address the Anti-Pattern

Marina advocates for proactive and transparent communication between Scrum Masters and Product Owners to bridge understanding gaps.

Marina Lazovic [05:17]: "I have first a transparent conversation with my product owners. I try to have a regular catch up with product owners at least once a week..."

By fostering open dialogues, Scrum Masters can guide POs to better comprehend their teams' capabilities and adjust expectations accordingly. This collaborative approach ensures that project goals are realistic and aligned with the team's actual performance levels.

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Characteristics of a Great Product Owner

Shifting focus to positive attributes, Marina delineates the qualities that make a Product Owner exceptional. Beyond technical proficiency in product management, leadership skills stand out as crucial differentiators.

Marina Lazovic [08:56]: "The best product owners are the ones who have not only the product management skills... but also leadership skills like empathy and leading by example."

Great POs exhibit empathy, support their teams during challenging times, and actively participate in tasks beyond their conventional scope to alleviate team bottlenecks.

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The Importance of Leadership Skills in Product Owners

Marina emphasizes that leadership is a reciprocal relationship. When POs demonstrate availability and support, it fosters mutual respect and trust within the team, enabling smoother project execution and adaptability.

Marina Lazovic [10:26]: "The best product owners are the ones who are there for their team available because most of the product owners are."

Oscar concurs, highlighting that this two-way support system not only bolsters team morale but also enhances the PO's ability to effectively manage priorities and integrate customer feedback.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Marina providing her contact information for listeners interested in further engagement, underscoring the importance of ongoing learning and collaboration in Agile practices.

Oscar [13:07]: "If you have follow up questions or you have some thoughts or something you didn't understand, do reach out and get in touch with Marina on LinkedIn."

Marina expresses her appreciation for the opportunity to share her insights, reinforcing the episode's emphasis on the critical role of leadership in Product Ownership.

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Key Takeaways:

• Understanding the Team: POs must deeply understand their team's composition, strengths, and areas for growth to set realistic expectations.

• Transparent Communication: Regular and open conversations between Scrum Masters and POs can identify and address misalignments early.

• Leadership Over Management: Exceptional POs leverage leadership skills—such as empathy and leading by example—to inspire and support their teams.

• Mutual Support: A collaborative relationship between POs and their teams fosters trust, adaptability, and improved project outcomes.

This episode serves as a valuable resource for Scrum Masters, Agile Coaches, and Product Owners aiming to enhance their collaborative efforts and leadership capabilities within Agile teams.

Transcript

[Oscar]

Have you ever wondered what it really takes to make Agile work well? At the Global Agile Summit, we're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action. Whether you're a leader, a product innovator, a developer, you'll hear practical insights from those who've done it. They'll be telling their own stories from the stage. I'll tell you more about this at the end of this episode. So stay back and listen to the full detailed description of what we have in store for you at the Global Agile Summit. But if you can't wait, you can go right now to globalagilesummit.com and check out our full schedule for now onto the episode. But I'll see you at the end of this episode with more details on the Global Agile Summit. Talk to you soon. Hello everybody. TGIF and as they say, Happy Friday. This week we have with us Marina Lasovi. Hey, Marina, welcome back.

[Marina Lasovi]

Hey, nice to be back.

[Oscar]

Absolutely. And this is our product donor episode. So, Marina, we'll talk about what great product owners do in a second. But before, let's dive into something sometimes fun, sometimes depressing, but nevertheless the anti pattern. So share with us potentially the worst anti pattern you've witnessed, product owner anti pattern you've witnessed in your career.

[Marina Lasovi]

Ooh, product owners are my favorite topic. So let me try to find one antipathetica pattern. One big one that I, I found in some product owners is like not really being aware of their team's strengths and weaknesses or you know, their team, what exactly is their team? Who does it consist of? What are the personalities of their team members, what are they good at, what they're not, what are they facing? So these may be very soft skills that I think a product owner requires. Of course that's not only that, but I see a lot of times product owners are not really understanding their teams. You know, that's a big, the big issue that.

[Oscar]

Can you give an example? Maybe you have a story in mind or something, but you talk about the proctor not understanding the team, not understanding their weaknesses, their strengths. But how does that show up in real life? Can you give us an example?

[Marina Lasovi]

Yeah. An example is that he's not really aware of how much the team can be, you know, complete, how much they can do. If the team has three junior developers and they really need a lot of support from their leads or from other more senior developers, they are slower in getting some things that they did, a lot of support from the product or from, for and from, you know, understanding requirements and so on. So if the product owner doesn't really understand the skill set of his team or it just doesn't have to be junior developers, he is not, he's expecting, for example, the developers that are skilled in one programming language or one or like doing mostly front end work and especially in one framework, he's expecting them to really briefly jump into something else. So not really understanding what they are capable of, what are their skills. And what that leads to is having unrealistic expectations from the team how much they can deliver. And those unrealistic expectations often spill into being the product owner pushing a lot of more work on the development team that they're able to handle. If the situation is like this, potentially junior developers that they cannot deliver so much so quickly, so many good solutions, they have bugs, they have a lot of things that are not really quality.

[Oscar]

So what do we do then? Because I mean this is going to happen sooner or later. I mean we know that POs are always pushing to get more stuff done. At some point we will be working with a team that has more juniors than the previous teams we've had before. So what would you do in this case? Marina?

[Marina Lasovi]

What I do, I have first a transparent conversation with my product owners. I try to have a regular catch up with product owners at least once a week to talk about all the things that we are noticing from each of our perspectives that's going on with the team, how they're doing, what's going on, what problems they see they're facing. So I try to impose in a way or influence the product owners to really understand their developers, their team as people, not just resources, you know, that we have to deliver something, understand them. And I always ask questions to the product, okay, why do you think this is happening? When they say okay, but they are not, they are not doing like they complain like they are not working on the priority items. They are. It's taking them five days to complete the story point that they estimated to split the ticket that they estimated to one story point. You know, they are just not fat out. And I ask him, why do you think this is happening? And I try to influence him to start thinking about his people. And we get slowly into that area of okay, he realizes okay, but maybe they don't have the skills, maybe they're not. So what I try to do is have really open, transparent conversations and a bit of guidance to the product owners to help them, help them be aware of this skill. It's also a Soft skill that a product owners need to really understand their teams so they can support them. So this is something that I found really helpful. Like open discussions.

[Oscar]

Yeah, absolutely. And bringing up the topic open, especially if we do it early. That's an important part. Of course, especially if we do it early opens up the possibility for the product owner to actually adapt to that. Right. Like oh, I've noticed that you expect the team to complete items, but they're actually just introducing Anthony who is new and they need to spend a lot of time with him to get him up to speed on the practices and the tools. So for the next two or three sprints, remember we can't ask so much from the team because Anthony's here. Like just bring it up. Right. And, and maybe the product owner has a different idea, but that's okay because then we can have a conversation and we can reshape our shared understanding of the team situation.

[Marina Lasovi]

Yeah, it's very, it's very useful to have this conversation from you product runs because each of us brings their own perspective, you know, on the work that's sometimes clashing or different, different views because we are looking at it from different size and looking at it from the process size side. How is it working? He is looking at it from the his product side. So it's very useful to have these kinds of discussions and compare our thoughts to find some kind of a joint.

[Oscar]

Yeah. Because they might have an insight we don't have. That's awesome.

[Marina Lasovi]

A lot of times. A lot of times.

[Oscar]

Marina, of course this is an example of an anti pattern but there are also some amazing product owners out there. So share with us potentially the best product owner you've ever worked with. How did they work?

[Marina Lasovi]

Well, you know, opposite of this. The best product owners are the ones who have not only the product management skills that is one part of their job or their work to be able to share the goals, the visions, the strategy, motivate the teams in building a great product. That is one thing that's absolutely necessary. But I think what makes a great product owner is these leadership skills which I really have worked with product owners that have these leadership skills like soft skills like empathy and leading by example, you know, being there with the team when it's toughest, sticking by by the team, jumping in to support them when they are stuck, when they are lacking of testers for example, or people get sick. Okay. Mostly product owners can jump in into writing code or don't because they were not really. Even if they were sometimes at some point developers, they lost their focus there. But what they can do is jump into testing and wherever there's help writing some documentation, whatever. So this is.

[Oscar]

Or getting some answers or.

[Marina Lasovi]

Yeah, that's that should I say be the basic thing the product owner needs to do. But of course that can be also an underpassion but the best product owners are the ones who are there for their team available because most of the product owners are. They have just this one team, you know then this one product and there's for me no excuse not to be there for your not to be there for your team and supporting having their back when there are customers or some other management that are pushing imposing more work to be done by the team or expecting so managing those expectations and keeping the team away from those distractions. So these are really good qualities.

[Oscar]

And also because when the product owner is available they are showing to the team what they want the team to be. Also because they want the team to be available to be supportive to help the product owner. Right. It is a two way street and by helping the team the PO is getting that credit, that relationship credit that will allow the PO to then ask the team for whatever is necessary at the time, maybe changing a priority or including some customer feedback, whatever that might be.

[Marina Lasovi]

Yes, absolutely, absolutely agree. That's why I said like that. Leadership by example is I think one of the biggest assets. If a product owner has that absolute and that awareness that is something that's valuable. So much for a team.

[Oscar]

Absolutely. Marina, it's been a pleasure. We're getting close to the end though. But before you go, where can people find out more about you and the work that you're doing?

[Marina Lasovi]

Well, people can find me on LinkedIn. I'm always there available for any kind of communication. Please be free to reach out. I'm also pro Kanban trainer so so if anyone is interested in some Kanban trainings, how to use Kanban with your scrum teams. Also not just pure Kanban, I'm also on the Pro Kanban website listed as a trainer. You can find me there for procumb trainings, email, whatever. So LinkedIn I'm always available.

[Oscar]

Absolutely. And everybody if you have follow up questions or you have some thoughts or something you didn't understand, do reach out and get in touch with Marina on LinkedIn. I'm sure she would be delighted to give you more information or just answer questions, share a bit more about the stories. So do get in touch and get connected because we learn together. Marina, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.

[Marina Lasovi]

Thank you Oscar. It was my pleasure. Thank you for this opportunity. It was very interesting to join your podcast.

[Oscar]

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