The Hidden Cost of Combined Scrum Master and Product Owner Roles | Chrissy Fleming

Summary

Episode Summary: The Hidden Cost of Combined Scrum Master and Product Owner Roles | Chrissy Fleming

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
Host: Pasco Duarte
Guest: Chrissy Fleming, Associate Principal in Business Agility, Turnberry Solutions
Release Date: February 3, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Pasco Duarte welcomes Chrissy Fleming, a seasoned professional with over 15 years in the New York tech scene. Chrissy brings a unique perspective to the table, having navigated the complexities of wearing both Scrum Master and Product Owner roles simultaneously—a common scenario in the bustling startup environment of New York City.

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Chrissy Fleming’s Journey into Scrum Mastery

Chrissy begins by clarifying that she has never officially held the title of Scrum Master. Instead, she has often found herself balancing the responsibilities of a Product Owner while performing Scrum Master duties. This dual role is typical in startups where roles are not yet fully defined. Her journey into Scrum Mastery was influenced by her early experiences in college, where she engaged deeply with Robert’s Rules—a formal system for running meetings. This foundation sparked her interest in how systems like Scrum can either support or hinder team progress.

Chrissy Fleming [04:44]: "I have to take ownership. If I know something's not right, I can't pass it on."

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The Challenge of Combined Roles

Chrissy shares a pivotal story illustrating the hidden costs of combining Scrum Master and Product Owner roles. In a project where leadership was insistent on a particular deliverable, the engineering team resisted, leading to underestimated project timelines. Chrissy, lacking a technical background, struggled to bridge the communication gap between leadership and the engineers.

Chrissy Fleming [05:21]: "We had to keep the product moving and keep the team aligned is a lot to ask out of one person."

The situation culminated when a lone engineer defied the team's consensus by completing the project in a single weekend—a stark contrast to the team's two-month estimate. This led to a complete loss of credibility for both Chrissy and her team, ultimately resulting in layoffs. The incident highlighted the risks of role consolidation, where the lack of a dedicated Scrum Master can undermine team trust and project credibility.

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Key Takeaways and Lessons Learned

1. Ownership Beyond Conduits

Chrissy emphasizes the importance of not merely acting as a messenger between teams and leadership. Instead, Scrum Masters must take ownership of the situation, especially when discrepancies arise.

Chrissy Fleming [08:24]: "I have to have my own opinion. Any time that I have felt like I've really misnavigated these situations, it's because I was trying to please someone or something instead of being authentic to myself."

2. Building Authentic Trust

Establishing genuine trust within the team is crucial. Chrissy advises against fostering an environment where team members feel the need to "bs the bullshitter." Transparency and honesty are foundational to maintaining credibility.

Chrissy Fleming [08:24]: "The honesty has to start with me. And so the other thing I learned is the importance of building with the team real trust."

3. Understanding and Communicating Value

Chrissy underscores the necessity of always being aware of the value behind what the team is building. This involves assessing whether the effort ("the squeeze") is justified by the expected outcomes ("the juice").

Chrissy Fleming [10:53]: "Is the juice worth the squeeze? Is the effort you're going to put in really yield the results that you want?"

4. Navigating Historical Distrust

Introducing a Scrum Master into a team with a history of distrust requires delicate navigation. Chrissy points out that effective Scrum Masters can rebuild trust even in scenarios where previous interactions have been strained.

Chrissy Fleming [10:53]: "... you have to be able to navigate the history of that as well. And not just. It's never just about the thing you're building. There's always more going on."

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Host’s Reflection and Additional Insights

Pasco Duarte reflects on the implications of Chrissy's story, highlighting the inevitable tensions between individual and team estimates. He emphasizes the importance of being transparent about the implications of team estimates and ensuring alignment with leadership expectations.

Pasco Duarte [08:24]: "We ask Scrum Masters, that's always going to happen sooner or later. More serious, less serious, but it's always going to happen."

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Conclusion

Chrissy Fleming's experiences shed light on the often-overlooked challenges of combining Scrum Master and Product Owner roles. Her insights advocate for clear role definitions, authentic leadership, and the cultivation of trust within teams to prevent fatigue and maintain project credibility. This episode serves as a crucial reminder for organizations to consider the hidden costs associated with role amalgamation and to prioritize dedicated support roles to foster successful Agile practices.

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Notable Quotes

• Chrissy Fleming [04:44]: "I have to take ownership. If I know something's not right, I can't pass it on."
• Chrissy Fleming [08:24]: "The honesty has to start with me."
• Chrissy Fleming [10:53]: "Is the juice worth the squeeze?"
• Pasco Duarte [08:24]: "We ask Scrum Masters, that's always going to happen sooner or later."

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Additional Resources

• Global Agile Summit: the globalagilesummit.com
  Join practitioners and thought leaders in Agile to overcome Agile fatigue and rejuvenate your Agile practices.

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Stay Connected:
If you enjoyed this episode, please rate the podcast on Stitcher or iTunes, share it with fellow Scrum Masters, and subscribe for more insightful conversations from Agile professionals around the world.

Transcript

[Pasco Duarte]

Hi there, Pasco Duarte here, your host. I wanted to share a story with you. You know how sometimes Agile just feels like following another checklist when like processes and frameworks feel more important than what we are trying to achieve and sometimes even like handcuffs. I was talking to a customer of the Global Agile Summit and he used a term that kind of stuck in my he said, I have Agile fatigue. And I've heard that a lot from people since then. But here's the thing, it doesn't have to be this way. So we started thinking and at the Global Agile Summit, which is happening this May, we're bringing together practitioners who've actually done that, who've broken free from this, you know, install the framework kind of mindset. We want to focus the summit on real life, first person stories of Agile, all succeeding that inspire you to action. We're talking real experiences, practical solutions, and of course, amazing insights from leaders like Gojkoacic, who will be one of the keynote speakers, and Jurgen Apelo, who will be one of the keynote speakers as well. If you're ready to leave the Agile fatigue behind, just join us in Dalit. The early Birth tickets are now available@the globalagilesummit.com and mark your calendar. We will have workshops on May 18th, that's a Sunday. And then the conference itself will happen on May 19th and 20th of 2025 in Tallinn, Estonia. So let's make Agile exciting again. And Remember, go to agileagilesummit.com that is, and get your early birth ticket. Now. It will only be available until early March, so grab it now. And now onto the episode. Hello everybody. Welcome to one more week of the Scru Master Toolbox podcast. This week, joining us from the US is Chrissy Fleming. Hey Chrissy, welcome to the show.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Thanks so much. It's an honor to be here.

[Pasco Duarte]

Absolutely. So Chrissy came to Scrum Mastering via Product Management. We'll hear more about that in a second. And a deep love of seeing teams work together. She spent 15 years in the New York tech scene and is currently an Associate Principal in Business Agility with Turnberry Solutions. She also has her own company where she coaches and helps businesses and technologies with their development. So, Chrissy, that was a short intro. Tell us a little bit more about yourself and how did you end up becoming a Scrum Master?

[Chrissy Fleming]

Well, first, I should clarify, I've never actually had the honor of holding the title Scrum Master. I've had to wear the hat and perform the responsibilities while simultaneously being a product owner, which is pretty typical in The New York City startup world. A lot of times when they're starting to build tech teams and companies are starting to grow, they don't have a set Scrum Master role. And a lot of that work just gets assumed, which it was only later in my career that I got to see the real beauty of having a totally balanced team with a full time Scrum Master and got to truly appreciate it. So I ended up wearing that hat quite a lot as a product manager. But I do come to Scrum honestly, and I come to Scrum Mastering honestly. When I was in college, I joined an organization and it was run by Robert's Rules. And I don't know if these are as common internationally, but it's basically like parliamentary procedure. It's a very formal way of running meetings. And to thrive in this organization, I had to learn these rules of engagement. And I got very into looking at how a system, whether it's Scrum or whether it's Robert's Rules or any other system, could be applied to either support or impede progress of a team. And so I've always been a bit of a nerd for that. And so it felt very natural to me that when I started working in tech and I started working with teams, I had these different ideas of how to run a meeting efficiently and how to get teams to talk and how to get people to engage in discussions on decision that they were making. And so when I finally learned about Scrum and learned about what a Scrum Master should do, I realized that not having it on my team was something missing. So I played both of those roles.

[Pasco Duarte]

Absolutely. And through that experience, I'm sure, especially because you had to wear multiple hats, Right. I'm sure that you had some moments where you kind of raised your hands and said, okay, this is too much, I need help. Right. And for sure we all go through those and it great if we can have help. Let's see how this story goes. I don't know what story you have to share with us, Chrissy, but share with us that story of a difficult moment you had in wearing that hat of the Scrum Master. And we'll dive to the takeaways and the details later, but tell us that story first.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Yeah. So how to choose one? Because there are plenty that have not gone the way I would have wished. A lot of times it is trying to do both jobs at once that has backfired. And so I really, to the extent that I can recommend it to anybody listening, if you have a choice between having a Scrum Master as a separate person, please do. I love when they're separated, but being responsible for both and keeping the product moving and keeping the team aligned is a lot to ask out of one person. So there was one time I was on a team and I don't even remember what we were supposed to build, but leadership really wanted us to build something. The team, the engineers really did not want to build it. And so they started sandbagging their estimates and just saying, oh, it's going to take us two months. It would take us two months to build. And I don't come from a technical background, I come from a musical background. So I've had to rely my whole career on really getting to understand the logic of the code that we're writing and working with our engineers. So I could sense that they were sandbagging, but I didn't stick up to the team. I felt like it was my responsibility to just convey what the team was saying. I couldn't get the lead engineer on board with me, so I just went back to leadership and said, well, the team says it's going to take two months. And leadership rightfully did not believe us and pushed back. And finally one engineer on the team got very fed up with the whole thing. She sat down for one weekend and knocked out the project that was supposedly going to take two months. And when she finished it in one weekend, it was done. But my credibility and the team's credibility was completely undermined. Right. When you go from, oh, it's going to take us two months as a team to it took one person sitting down for a weekend to knock this out. All of our credibility was just shot and we were all laid off shortly thereafter. Not for that reason, but I think it made it easier when they were making big decisions about which teams were and weren't going to get involved in part of a layoff. I think it made it easier that the credibility was shot just with that one standoff.

[Pasco Duarte]

Yeah. So many times we are faced with what is the expectation or understanding of one person or multiple people versus the team. Right. Like we ask Scrum Masters, that's always going to happen sooner or later. More serious, less serious, but it's always going to happen. So when you think about this story and looking back at what happened, like the team telling, you know, it's going to take two months, and then this person doing it over a weekend, like, what have you learned from that story? Now, when you go back to the teams and you're discussing what to do next and trying to make decisions and you have that in the back of your mind that, hey, it doesn't always take as long as I'm told.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Oh, absolutely. So first I learned I can't just be a conduit. I can't just be a messenger. That's never my role. And I have to take ownership. If I know something's not right, I can't pass it on. And that goes both ways, right? From leadership to the team. From the team to leadership. I have to have my own opinion. And any time that I have felt like I've really misnavigated these situations, it's because I was trying to please someone or something instead of being authentic to myself. So that was a huge, huge lesson. I was torn between loyalty to my team and to leadership. And I didn't take the time to tune into how I. What I believed and to take the stand that I knew. Because you don't have anything if you don't have credibility. So the other thing I've learned, and I push on teams a lot, and I hope your audience isn't offended if I say, I will also tell my teams, don't bullshit the bullshitter. So you need to be honest with me if we need to pad it. If you're worried about what leadership is going to say or what our estimates are going to be, if you're nervous about being pressured into time, I will help with that. But you need to be honest with me. The honesty has to start with me. And so the other thing I learned is the importance of building with the team real trust that they trust that if they say something's going to take two days, but we really don't want to do it, that I'm going to navigate that conversation responsibly.

[Pasco Duarte]

Yeah, for me, the other aspect. So what you said is actually very important. Right. Like, create this kind of beginning from trust. Right. Like, you know, if you need help, you let me know and then we'll figure it out. Right. The other thing that comes to mind is that very often there are attached implications to whatever the team is going to say. Right. Like if the team said, you know, two weeks, then there would be some implication two months, it was too much. That's what we heard. But two weeks, maybe. I don't know. Right. Like, so for me, what's really important is for us to also be clear about the implications and to the point that these days I talk to the teams about, okay, so here's what leadership thinks this is worth. Right. And if it's not even close. Yeah, exactly. And if it's not even close, let's not do it. Right.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Yeah. You have to understand that, too. And I think it's telling that I don't even remember what we were building. It wasn't that important. Um, but the. That you have to understand the value of what you're building at all times. And that's also me wearing my product owner hat. Right. That you always have to know what the value is and you have to know the. I love the saying, is the juice worth the squeeze? Right. Is the effort. Is the effort you're going to put in really yield the results that you want? And. And also helping your team navigate which. Which battles are worth fighting, you know, which hills you choose to die on? And. And that often comes from. I think none of us come into a totally fresh company where everything's neutral. Right. There's always a history of teams being put upon to build things at the last minute or to build things in a way that's unreliable. I find the Scrum Master often comes in. In the middle of a situation where there has already been a testing of trust on both sides. And so you have to be able to navigate the history of that as well. And not just. It's never just about the thing you're building. There's always more going on. And I think the truly great Scrum Masters and the truly great team leaders understand that and get to a place where you can build trust, even from a place where there is already distrust, instead of just building it from neutral.

[Pasco Duarte]

Yeah, absolutely. That's a very. Well, very good way to put it. It's never only about the thing that we're building. There are always other things attached to it. Thank you for sharing that story, Chrissy.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Thank you for having me. This is fun.

[Pasco Duarte]

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