The Impact of Unaddressed Conflict on Agile Team Health | Chrissy Fleming

Summary

Summary of "Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches"

Episode: The Impact of Unaddressed Conflict on Agile Team Health | Chrissy Fleming
Host: Vasco Duarte, Agile Coach, Certified Scrum Master, Certified Product Owner
Release Date: February 4, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In this insightful episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte engages in a deep conversation with Chrissy Fleming, a seasoned Scrum Master and Agile Coach. The discussion centers around the detrimental effects of unaddressed conflict within Agile teams and offers practical strategies for fostering a healthy team dynamic.

Guest Introduction: Chrissy Fleming

Chrissy Fleming brings a wealth of experience from her role at Meetup, where she navigated complex team dynamics and conflict resolution. Her unique approach is influenced by her readings and personal growth, making her insights particularly valuable for Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches seeking to enhance team health.

Influential Book: "How Toddlers Thrive" by Tova Klein

At [02:29], Chrissy shares that the book "How Toddlers Thrive" by Tova Klein has profoundly influenced her career. Although not directly related to Agile methodologies, the book's exploration of brain development and behavior management offers universal lessons applicable to adult interactions. Chrissy remarks:

"If you can help a toddler handle their feelings, transition to a different task, learn from their mistakes, receive feedback, you can help anyone."
— Chrissy Fleming [02:29]

She emphasizes that understanding emotional responses is crucial in professional settings, where emotions often play a significant role in team dynamics.

The Story: Unaddressed Conflict at Meetup

Team Composition and Background

Chrissy recounts her experience at Meetup, where she joined as a Product Manager and Scrum Master. She was tasked with leading a newly assembled team focused on improving meetup group retention—a novel initiative for the company. The team comprised both tenured employees and newcomers, with Chrissy being the newest member.

Onset of Conflict

Early in her tenure, Chrissy encountered a highly hostile team member in the QA role. During a sprint planning meeting, this individual openly criticized Chrissy's capabilities, shouting:

"You're useless. I can't believe they let someone like you do this job."
— QA Team Member [08:20]

This outburst left Chrissy visibly shaken and created an atmosphere of fear and silence within the team.

Impact of Toxic Behavior

The aggressive behavior of the QA member had a cascading effect on the team:

• Avoidance of Healthy Conflict: Team members either engaged in unhealthy conflict or completely avoided addressing issues.

"There wasn't this understanding, there wasn't this trust yet in the team to say like, hey, that's out of line."
— Chrissy Fleming [08:57]

• Reduced Team IQ: Fear of expressing ideas led to a decline in creative problem-solving and overall team intelligence.

• Erosion of Trust: The hostility prevented the formation of trust among team members, making collaboration challenging.

Attempted Solutions

Chrissy sought guidance from her manager on handling the situation. Unfortunately, the advice she received was counterproductive:

"Her only advice to me was be meaner."
— Chrissy Fleming [10:57]

Recognizing the futility of this approach, Chrissy pivoted to more effective strategies:

1. One-on-One Engagement: She built individual relationships with team members to foster trust and empathy.

2. Balanced Conflict: Chrissy engaged in constructive debates by switching roles with a strong engineer on the team, encouraging mutual understanding.

"It's like, oh, let's just switch. I'll argue for the thing you care about, you argue for the thing I care about, and then we build trust that way."
— Chrissy Fleming [13:21]

Despite these efforts, the persistent toxicity led to the eventual disbandment of the team to preserve overall health.

Resolution and Lessons Learned

The experience underscored the importance of:

• Addressing Toxic Behavior Promptly: Ignoring aggressive behavior only exacerbates team dysfunction.

• Building Trust: Establishing strong one-on-one relationships can mitigate the impact of individual conflicts.

• Encouraging Open Communication: Creating a safe environment where team members feel comfortable expressing concerns is vital for team health.

"I've learned just not to let that behavior go because there's no end to it."
— Chrissy Fleming [15:32]

Key Insights and Takeaways

1. Human-Centric Approach: Agile practices are inherently human-centric, and understanding emotions is critical for effective team management.

2. Impact of Leadership: Leaders must model appropriate behavior and address conflicts proactively to maintain team cohesion.

3. Effective Conflict Resolution: Constructive approaches to conflict, such as role-switching and mutual understanding, can transform team dynamics.

4. Avoiding Toxicity: Allowing toxic behavior to persist undermines team health and productivity, necessitating decisive action when necessary.

Notable Quotes

• Chrissy Fleming [02:29]:
  "If you can help a toddler handle their feelings, transition to a different task, learn from their mistakes, receive feedback, you can help anyone."

• QA Team Member [08:20]:
  "You're useless. I can't believe they let someone like you do this job."

• Chrissy Fleming [13:21]:
  "It's like, oh, let's just switch. I'll argue for the thing you care about, you argue for the thing I care about, and then we build trust that way."

• Chrissy Fleming [15:32]:
  "I've learned just not to let that behavior go because there's no end to it."

Conclusion

Chrissy Fleming's experience at Meetup provides a compelling case study on the adverse effects of unaddressed conflict within Agile teams. Her proactive strategies in building trust and addressing toxicity offer valuable lessons for Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches aiming to cultivate healthy, high-performing teams. This episode emphasizes that while Agile frameworks provide structure, the true success of Agile practices hinges on effective human interaction and conflict resolution.

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Transcript

[Pasco Duarte]

Hi there, Pasco Duarte here, your host.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I wanted to share a story with you. You know how sometimes Agile just feels like following another checklist when like processes and frameworks feel more important than what we are trying to achieve and sometimes even like handcuffs. I was talking to a customer of the Global Agile Summit and he used a term that kind of stuck in my he said, I have Agile fatigue. And I've heard that a lot from people since then. But here's the thing, it doesn't have to be this way. So we started thinking and at the Global Agile Summit, which is happening this May, we're bringing together practitioners who've actually done that, who've broken free from this, you know, install the framework kind of mindset. We want to focus the summit on real life, first person stories of Agile all succeeding that inspire you to action. We're talking real experiences, practical solutions, and of course, amazing insights from leaders like Gojkoacic, who will be one of the keynote speakers, and Jurgen Apelo, who will be one of the keynote speakers as well. If you're ready to leave the Agile fatigue behind, just join us in Dalit. The early Birth tickets are now available@the globalagilesummit.com and mark your calendar. We will have workshops on May 18th, that's a Sunday. And then the conference itself will happen on May 19th and 20th of 2025 in Tallinn, Estonia. So let's make Agile exciting again. And remember, go to agile globalagilesummit.com that is, and get your early birth ticket. Now, it will only be available until early March, so grab it now. And now onto the episode.

[Unnamed Host]

Hello everybody. Welcome to our Team Tuesday. Here on the podcast this week we have with us Chrissy Fleming. Hey, Chrissy, welcome back.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Hey Vasco. Thanks.

[Unnamed Host]

So, Chrissy, we're going to talk about teams and how sometimes they create their own problems in a second. But for now, share with us. What was the book that most influenced you in your career as a Scrum Master?

[Chrissy Fleming]

This is going to be a bit of an unusual one. The book that has most influenced me is a book called How Toddlers Thrive by Tova Klein. And I'm not saying that the people that we work with are toddlers. I just happened to read it when I had a toddler. And the book goes into our brain and our physical makeup and how these things connect with our behavior. And honestly, I have found that the lessons I learned in this book I apply universally to the adults in my life as well. Because if you can help a toddler handle their feelings Transition to a different task, learn from their mistakes, receive feedback. You can help anyone. Also, I'm sure a good number of our audience are parents as well, so I recommend it for that too.

[Unnamed Host]

Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that you said, I think is important because we work with people as grandmasters, and of course also when as a product owner, you also work with people. So we are mostly working with people every day. And not being able to tackle that is a huge handicap for us.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Unnamed Host]

So, like having that, that book that explains, you know, how our brain works, what, what triggers feelings, what goes on inside us when these feelings are so strong.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Unnamed Host]

Like in, in a toddler. But also adults have strong feelings too. That's not an exclusivity of a toddler, right?

[Chrissy Fleming]

Oh, my goodness, yes, absolutely. And I think, if anything, we often forget as adults just how emotional we are. I think we think because we. And that we're working in these professional worlds, that we are very professional and that we are a bit more like the machines that we work with, but we're not. It's an extremely human job and we bring our whole human selves. And especially, you know, if we never did master some of these things, emotion control or being able to switch out of tasks and stuff when we were kids, like, it.

[Unnamed Host]

It comes up as adults, and we should not expect people to behave like machines. I think you said it perfectly. And sometimes we perhaps expect people to be very logical. I often think that there's only one Data and is a fictional character in Star Trek.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Unnamed Host]

Like nobody else can do that.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Oh, my gosh, I love that show. It's true. Nobody is like that. And a long time ago, I took a course on writing copy for websites. And one of the greatest insights the teacher said was, oftentimes, just because we're writing for computers, we think we write like computers. So, you know, we. We won't speak the way that you would speak if you're just talking to someone. And I think too, through my whole career, I've just been finding, as a scrum master, as a product owner, as a tech leader, it's all about the humans. We are in a technical job, but it is 100% about the humans. The humans you work with, the humans you're building technology for, and the tech is just the means to an end.

[Unnamed Host]

Yeah, absolutely. It's all about the humans, as we will quickly find out in the story that comes next, because of course, we're going to talk about teams and how sometimes they become their own worst enemies. So, Chrissy, tell us the story of a team, give us a little bit of the context so that we know what kind of project, how big the team was, and so on. And then walk us through how those small little behaviors in the team grew and over time became a problem for the team.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Yes. So I know, I know yesterday was our failure day, but this is another great one in mine. So I was working at Meetup. Hopefully many of you go to meetups still, because it's all about the humans. I was new to the company. I had just joined. I was. Came in as a product manager, but also was in the role of leading the team through our ceremonies as a scrum master. And they had just assembled the team for us to focus on the retention of meetups. So you start a meetup group, maybe you get bored with it, maybe it, you know it's going, but you move away. How do we keep that meetup group alive? So that was the task ahead of us. Believe it or not, in its 15 year history, Meetup had never considered retention, but as a. Something they wanted to tackle. And they put together a group of us, some who were very tenured at the company and had been there a long time, and some who were also very new. And I was absolutely the newest one. And early on, I. We were very. A new team. But early on, there was this combination of one person who was very hostile and very openly hostile, and it set a tone for the team really not being able to engage in healthy conflict. We did one of two things. There was either unhealthy conflict and I can go into that in a second, or there was total avoidance of conflict.

[Unnamed Host]

Yeah, that's usually what happens, right? Avoidance ends up being the norm.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Yes. Yeah. And I remember a meeting very early on where we were, we were doing a sprint planning, and, you know, I was new. I was a new product owner, so I was relying very heavily on the team. And this really set the team back because they said, why don't you know this yet? And I'm like, well, because I'm new. I need you to know this until I can learn this. I had no shame about that. But this. The. The person that did our qa, I remember her shouting at me and saying, you're useless. You're. You're. I can't believe they. They let someone like you do this job. I mean, she made it very personal. Yeah. Oh, I remember I cried.

[Unnamed Host]

Like, that is tough.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Yeah, it was. It was a really rough meeting. And so then you have this. You have this moment right, where you're getting called out and trying to hold yourself together in the moment, or I was trying to hold myself together in the moment. And then you have this whole team that's shocked into silence. And whether they agreed with her, you know, they wished that I knew this stuff or they didn't. There wasn't this understanding, there wasn't this trust yet in the team to say like, hey, that's out of line. Like we can disagree about stuff, but you can't talk to somebody like that. And even after the fact, you know, when, when temper is calm and you go for walks with people and you try to sort out what everybody needs, she still never, she said, I'll never apologize. I said what I said w meant it. And so then you're like, oh, well, now I'm dealing with a toxic individual in a team that is now permitting this toxicity. Because nobody felt really, we were all so new. So you would have meetings where we would force ourselves to talk about each other's haircuts or like whatever we could do to, to keep it civil. But we weren't engaging in the real issues that the team was facing in part because of this, this toxicity. So it was, and it wasn't just directed at me. She would direct that venom at many members of our team. Actually.

[Unnamed Host]

What do you think made the team not want to address the issue? Because I'm sure nobody was happy about it.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Yeah, no one was. I think there's a combination of. She was the most tenured person in the team. She was the one that had been there the longest. And, and this is an interesting dynamic I have never had before since in, in technology, it was an all woman team, which brings with it when you are, when you are a woman working in a highly male dominated field, as a woman in tech in America certainly is, you come up with certain defense mechanisms. And so we didn't have, we didn't have the trust yet. We had had to come through our careers with some of our guard up and so building that trust together. There's an expectation of being nice that, that gets put on us a lot. And so that willingness to call somebody out when they're. It's just, it doesn't come as naturally. And even when I went to my manager and said, how should I hand handle this? Her only advice to me was be meaner.

[Unnamed Host]

Ow.

[Chrissy Fleming]

I'm like, well, that's not, I mean.

[Unnamed Host]

No, that just escalates, right?

[Chrissy Fleming]

Yes. It's one thing to say, stand up for yourself. Don't tolerate this. We don't Tolerate this behavior at this company, which I think was the answer. I was hoping she would say be meaner is terrible advice. I think we can all agree, right?

[Unnamed Host]

Yeah. No, because it just leads to more conflict. That is not healthy. It eventually destroys the team.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Yeah, it was terrible. So what. What ended up working? If it's okay if we move on to that? Well, partially the we. The team got disbanded for obvious reasons. But before that, what I was able to do was I was able to peel off individuals of the team and build trust one on one and build empathy one on one, and. And get those. So, okay, we couldn't have a whole team working together yet, but I could build relationships and they could build trust with each other. And so there were certain individuals that we could engage in healthy conflict. There was an engineer who always thought that I was advocating for speed. When can we get that done? When can we get that out? And she was always advocating for, how can we build this the best. Right? What's the best way to build this? And finally, I asked her, you know, what her goals were? And she said, I want to be a senior engineer. And I said flat out, do you think I don't care about code quality? And she's like, yeah, I think you don't care about code quality. And I was like, I think I. I understand that. I do care about code quality. Do you care about getting what we're building into the hands of our customers, or do you just want to build it forever? And she's like, I want to get it in the hands of our customers. I said, that's great, because sometimes when you argue, I think you don't. So now we understand each other better. So tell you what, for the next couple of weeks, I'm only going to argue for code quality, and you're going to argue for how we can get this out faster. And the real mark of a senior engineer, right, is being able to balance those two. So if you show me that you can do that, I can help you with your path to being a senior engineer. And that worked out beautifully. It was the best conflict that I think I've ever had on the same team where I was having some of the worst. So we ended up arguing for each other's sides. I call it boxing from the opposite side of the ring.

[Unnamed Host]

And that's a great metaphor, right?

[Chrissy Fleming]

So it's like, oh, let's just switch. I'll argue for the thing you care about, you argue for the thing I care about, and then we build trust that way. Because she saw that I had her back. So there was an ability within that team to build trust, but ultimately, we had to remove the toxic person, and we did split up the team.

[Unnamed Host]

Yeah. And unfortunately, in team dynamics, that can happen.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Unnamed Host]

Like, if the person who is creating the unhandled and unresolved conflict is strong enough, then that will spread. And if nothing else, people will just shy from addressing the conflict. And that puts the whole team in the position where now they're afraid of saying what they think. So they will only say things that they either think have no impact, which basically means we're not progressing, or that the things they say are not at least against the people who are shouting or being aggressive. And that, of course, reduces the IQ of the team to the lowest common denominator.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Yes. If you're playing it safe, you're losing. Right. And when people can't engage, there were some very brilliant people on that team, very good at problem solving and empathetic that. Especially that one engineer. I told the story about wonderful minds and to just be in a place where you're so unsafe that you can't go out on a limb, or you can't say, what if we tried this? Because you're afraid of getting called stupid or things like that, or.

[Unnamed Host]

Or that somebody will shout at you even if they don't call your name. Shouting is aggressive in itself.

[Chrissy Fleming]

It is. And so it. I. I also feel I. I worry less the older I get, the less I worry about what other people think of me, and the more true to myself I am. And I also think that having raised two kids, I'm much better now. And reading my book about toddlers, I'm much better at just nipping bad behavior in the bud. And I have a bit of a maternal air. And it pays off sometimes because it's like, nope, that's not happening here.

[Unnamed Host]

Not today.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Not today. Not with me. So I've gotten a lot better than that, especially from experiences like that. I've learned just not to let that behavior go because there's no end to it.

[Unnamed Host]

And, of course, the book you mentioned earlier in the episode is also a great starting point for those of us who want to get to that point.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Host]

So thank you for sharing all of that with us, Chrissy.

[Chrissy Fleming]

Oh, it's my pleasure.

[Pasco Duarte]

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