The Jazz Duo Effect and The Absent PO — Two Sides of Agile Product Ownership | Christian Thordal

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Jazz Duo Effect and The Absent PO — Two Sides of Agile Product Ownership"

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Christian Thordal
Date: May 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Vasco Duarte is joined by Christian Thordal for the “Product Owner Friday” segment. Together, they explore two extremes of Agile product ownership: the “absent PO” anti-pattern and the high-performing, collaborative PO relationship—which Christian dubs “the jazz duo effect.” Through real-life stories, Christian explains the consequences teams face when product owners are disengaged, and illuminates what it looks like when product ownership is done exceptionally well.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Absent Product Owner: An Anti-Pattern

• Lack of Engagement and Accessibility

  • Christian shares a challenging experience with a PO from a large Danish logistics company who was “very likeable” but fundamentally misunderstood the responsibilities of the role.
  • The PO was difficult to reach, worked remotely more often, missed meetings, and provided only high-level backlog items lacking clear acceptance criteria.
  • "It was very hard to get a hold of, but that kind of made it hard for the team to actually go ask questions on his very high level backlog which was primarily epics with no acceptance criterias." — Christian Thordal (02:03)

• Symptoms of Emerging PO Problems

  • Vasco highlights that these issues often creep in gradually, starting with missed meetings or incomplete backlog items before escalating.
  • Christian adds that the PO started refusing meetings, physically withdrew from the team, and was “more distant physically.”
  • The Scrum Master and dev team had to break down epics into stories and tasks themselves, without knowing if they were meeting product goals.
  • "But you can't really do the work for them... so I started filling in instead. And I'm no way near a good product owner so I kind of became the glue in that sense, which wasn’t a good solution." — Christian Thordal (04:02–04:59)

• Red Flags & Advice

  • When team members feel compelled to fill in gaps left by the PO, it’s a strong signal something needs to change.
  • Vasco observes: “If we start feeling the need to fill in for the product owner, that's already a symptom that something needs to get taken care of.” (04:59)

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The Jazz Duo Effect: High-Performing PO/SM Partnerships

• What an Excellent PO Looks Like

  • Christian describes his current PO, who blends product clarity with strong leadership and accountability.
  • “He combines clarity of the product with leadership. That means he's accountable for the backlog, he pushes the teams and he has expectations toward them...” (05:25)

• Team Alignment and Communication

  • Effective reporting and backlog refinement are done collaboratively with the team and communicated upward to product leaders.
  • Their interaction goes beyond delegation; they have weekly follow-ups and are “extremely aligned on how we see and do things.”
  • In OKR meetings, tasks are naturally shared: “We kind of filled in the blanks for each other and it felt very natural. So it's kind of grown organically into this partnership.” (05:25–06:42)

• The Jazz Duo Metaphor

  • Vasco likens this dynamic to a “jazz duo,” where seamless, real-time collaboration and mutual support enable the team’s success.
  • “It's almost like a jazz duo, right? You start picking up on the leads, you see the lead, you pick it up, then they do the same and it ends up being kind of a magic collaboration happening and very often in real time.” — Vasco Duarte (06:42)

• Impact on the Team

  • This partnership results in clear direction and easier working conditions for the development team.
  • “That kind of relationship... really reflects on the team. It is much easier for them because the direction for how we want to lead the team is so aligned.” — Christian Thordal (07:17)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On PO Anti-Patterns:

  • “I think this one goes back to when I was working for a larger logistics company in Denmark...he didn't really understand his role.” — Christian Thordal (01:41)
  • “If we start feeling the need to fill in for the product owner, that's already a symptom that something needs to get taken care of.” — Vasco Duarte (04:59)

• On Great PO Partnerships:

  • "It’s kind of grown organically into this partnership." — Christian Thordal (06:42)
  • “It’s almost like a jazz duo...ends up being kind of a magic collaboration happening and very often in real time.” — Vasco Duarte (06:42)
  • “It is much easier for [the team] because the direction for how we want to lead the team is so aligned.” — Christian Thordal (07:17)

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Memorable Segments & Timestamps

• [02:03] — Christian’s story of the disengaged PO in logistics.
• [03:29–04:59] — Warning signs and effects when the PO detaches from the team.
• [05:25–07:17] — Description of the "jazz duo" partnership with a high-performing PO.
• [06:42] — The “jazz duo” metaphor explained by the host.
• [07:17] — Impacts of great PO/SM partnership on the team.

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Where to Find Christian Thordal

• Christian is available on LinkedIn: “Christian, the Scrum Master at TV2.” Be aware: He jokes there’s a cousin with the same name and similar look on LinkedIn, so check for the TV2 profile.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode skillfully contrasts the destructive impact of an absent, disengaged product owner with the power and productivity unlocked by close, creative PO/Scrum Master collaboration. The “jazz duo effect” metaphor highlights how shared ownership, communication, and mutual support can energize an Agile team and drive exceptional results.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello everybody. Welcome to our Friday PGIF and product owner episode this week with Christian Tordal. Hey Christian, welcome back.

[C]

Thanks Kil.

[B]

So, Product order the Critical role We've already talked about some product order anti patterns earlier this week, but let's dive into those right away. We'll talk about successful product owners in a minute, but share with us potentially the worst product or anti pattern you've witnessed in your career.

[C]

That's a good one, Vasco. I think this one goes back to when I was working for a larger logistics company in Denmark and we had a po. Great guy, very likable, but

[B]

he didn't

[C]

really understand his role. It was very hard to get a hold of, but that kind of made it hard for the team to actually go ask questions on on his very high level backlog which was primarily epics with no acceptance criterias. So the biggest anti pattern here I think was that me and the team was left to kind of navigate in that space but also break down epics to actually stories and tasks without really knowing if we hit the product that we wanted and the issues that we were trying to solve.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And I want to focus on that experience. Right? Like that experience of feeling left alone, I guess we could call it by the product owner. The reason why I want to do that is because that doesn't necessarily immediately start from that experience.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like sometimes it can start by the product owner missing a couple of meetings or a backlog item not being as refined or as well understood as it could be. What are the symptoms you see? Oh hey, if you start seeing this, be careful you need to start helping the proctor to realize their impact.

[C]

Yeah. So what this PO specifically did was he would call into meetings, refine me and they would have them. I pay for the same day over half and run. Astrid got his. Also start to work more and more from home or from somewhere else.

[B]

Less proximity, right? Like kind of more distant physically. More distant physically.

[C]

More distant, yes. But also saying no to a lot of meetings. So I saw as my priority to help him in order to help the team. So he would engage in these one hour sessions that we would have every week where I was trying to help him with the backlog, trying to break stuff down. But I mean you can nudge, you can inspire and you can motivate, but you can't really do the work for them. And in the end I think he was, I don't know if he was stressed or what he was, but the sessions didn't really leave any mark so I started filling in instead. And I'm no way near a good product owner so I kind of became the glue in that sense, which wasn't a good solution.

[B]

And actually that's another symptom. Right. Like if we start feeling the need to fill in for the product owner, that's already a symptom that something needs to get taken care of. But of course there aren't only anti patterns, there are also some product owners that do amazing work in that role. So share with us. Christian, the best product owner you've ever worked with, how did they work?

[C]

I think the best product owner that I have is someone I work currently with. He combines clarity of the product with leadership. That means he's accountable for the backlog, he pushes the teams and he has expectations toward them in order to report. I don't like the word report, but it's what we do. Right. But we use it. The reporting is used more as a communication tool along with the backlog to his product leader to say within or without outside of our scope. And if so, I already have a plan. We have a follow up every week where we discuss the team, the backlog and the product and extremely aligned on how we see and do things. And as of late today when we had our OKR meetings, I facilitated most of it. Um, but there weren't really any kind of agreement on how to facilitate it. But we kind of filled in the blanks for each other and it felt very natural. So. So kind of grown organically into this, this partnership.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I really like that word because that's exactly how it feels to work With a great product owner, it feels like a partnership. Right. Like, it's almost like a jazz duo. Right? You start picking up on the leads, you see the lead, you pick it up, then they do the same and it ends up being kind of a magic collaboration happening and very often in real time. Right. Like you just know when to come in and when to let the P.O. run with it. I really like that. It's rare, but it's possible. So kudos to that product owner.

[C]

Yes, it is. And of course that kind of relationship and that way of working really reflects on the team. It is much easier for them because the direction for how we want to lead the team is so aligned.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And alignment would be another word to describe that kind of partnership. So, Christian, that was a great story. Thank you for sharing that with us. We're almost at the end, but before we go, where can people find out more about you and the work that you're doing?

[C]

You can always look me up at LinkedIn and I think that's probably the best place. There's a disclaimer here. I have a cousin who used to be a captain within the army with the same name and kind of the same look, so beware.

[B]

It's Christian, the Scrum Master.

[C]

Yeah, I currently work at TV2 and you can see that highlighted under my profile picture. It kind of looks the same with me. Beard, bald and glasses.

[B]

Well, we'll put the link in the show notes along with the photo so that everybody can check it out how Christian looks so you don't get confused when looking at LinkedIn. Christian, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.

[C]

The pleasure was mine. Vasco, great to be on the show.

[A]

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[B]

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