The Leadership Void — What Happens When Product Owners Forget They're Part of the Scrum Team | Nate Amidon

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: "The Leadership Void — What Happens When Product Owners Forget They're Part of the Scrum Team"

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Nate Amidon
Date: April 10, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode focuses on a critical leadership issue within Agile teams—a “leadership void” that occurs when Product Owners (POs) distance themselves from their teams. Host Vasco Duarte and guest Nate Amidon, an Agile coach with a military leadership background, discuss common anti-patterns, the ripple effects of disconnected POs, and what distinguishes great Product Owners who truly embody teamwork.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Product Owner as a Leader (01:36–03:29)

• Leadership Role Clarified:
  Nate emphasizes that while the PO is ultimately responsible for the backlog, ownership should not mean dictatorial control. Effective POs collaborate, but must decisively prioritize.

  • Quote:
    “The product owner should be doing that. And so when I see failures from a product owner, they usually revolve around that, not really embracing that leadership role and especially leadership of the backlog.” — Nate (01:39)

• Leadership Is About Care and Team Integration:
  Drawing on his military experience, Nate stresses that good leadership is about caring for and nurturing the team.

  • Anti-Patterns:
    • Throwing stories over the fence without detail
    • Frequently changing priorities without considering consequences
    • Lack of collaboration or detailed requirements
    • “Just do it” attitude leads to team disengagement

2. Patterns When Product Owners Aren’t “Part of the Team” (03:29–06:38)

• Stakeholder Chaos:
  When POs aren’t seen as team members, stakeholders bypass them, overwhelming teams with direct requests—what Nate calls “shoulder taps.” This can devolve into a “corporate Game of Thrones” where teams are whiplashed by conflicting stakeholder demands.

  • Quote:
    “Competing stakeholders where it turns into like a corporate Game of Thrones type of thing. Right. Like which director has the bigger proverbial dragon in the organization.” — Nate (04:34)

• Team Impact:
  Teams sense when the PO is disengaged. It leads to:

  • Teams feeling dismissed
  • Lack of trust in the PO
  • Disengagement: “Just tell me what to do”
  • Leadership voids: engineers or others step into the gap
  • Quote:
    “They don’t think the product owner cares... Eventually it becomes just a leadership void on the team that someone will step up and fill, you know, and usually it’s an engineer...I’ve done it.” — Nate (05:53)
  • Memorable Moment:
    “We just did what you told us.” Vasco warns that phrase should trigger alarm bells about PO dysfunction. (06:36)

3. Transformative Qualities of Great Product Owners (07:10–08:44)

• Characteristics of Successful Product Owners:

  • Integrated into the team; attend all ceremonies and meetings
  • Share updates during daily standups like any team member
  • Serve as “idea radars”—are open, receptive, collaborative
  • Build relationships and trust
  • Recognize that backlog leadership doesn’t mean team hierarchy
  • Quote:
    “They are shoulder to shoulder... Also great idea radars. They listen to people when they have ideas, and they’re not dismissive because they realize that the team is going to generate better ideas than them.” — Nate (07:33)

• Team Equality:
  The PO should act as an equal within the team, focusing on maximizing value together, not as a boss.

  • Quote:
    “Just because it’s a leadership position from the backlog perspective is not a leadership position for the team. Right. We’re all in the same team. We’re all equals.” — Nate (08:28)

4. Building Alignment and Genuine Team Connection (08:44–11:52)

• Practical Presence:
  Being present in meetings, building relationships, and maintaining alignment are crucial.

  • Quote:
    “Be part of the meetings, sit next to them if you can, or attend the remote calls if you must. But... you need to feel that the team’s success is my success. Like, I can’t succeed without them, they can’t succeed without me.” — Vasco (09:00)

• Breaking Down Siloes:
  Organizational structure often separates POs from teams, but successful POs foster allegiance and responsibility for team outcomes.

• Feedback Culture:
  Teams will let POs know about their responsiveness if given the chance—seek and embrace feedback.

  • Quote:
    “The team will tell you if you allow them, if you’re being responsive or not. So seek that feedback as well.” — Vasco (11:19)

• Small Gestures Matter:

  • “Everyone understands that you...maybe you’re dealing with stakeholders... But the small things matter. And you want to just always project that your teammates, you’re doing different roles, but you’re on the same team.” — Nate (11:27)

• Alignment Is the Purpose of Scrum Ceremonies:

  • Quote:
    “Alignment is the real purpose behind the ceremonies. And if the POs are there, they are much more likely to be aligned.” — Vasco (11:52)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote / Moment | |-----------|---------|----------------| | 01:39 | Nate | “The product owner should be doing that...not really embracing that leadership role and especially leadership of the backlog.” | | 04:34 | Nate | “Competing stakeholders where it turns into like a corporate Game of Thrones type of thing. Right. Like which director has the bigger proverbial dragon in the organization.” | | 05:53 | Nate | “Eventually it becomes just a leadership void on the team that someone will step up and fill...I’ve done it.” | | 06:36 | Vasco | “We just did what you told us.” (Red flag moment) | | 07:33 | Nate | “They are shoulder to shoulder... They’re not dismissive, because they realize the team is going to generate better ideas than them.” | | 08:28 | Nate | “Just because it’s a leadership position from the backlog perspective is not a leadership position for the team.” | | 09:00 | Vasco | “You need to feel that the team’s success is my success. I can’t succeed without them, they can’t succeed without me.” | | 11:19 | Vasco | “The team will tell you if you allow them, if you’re being responsive or not. So seek that feedback as well.” | | 11:27 | Nate | “Everyone understands... But the small things matter. And you want to just always project that you’re teammates... you’re on the same team.” | | 11:52 | Vasco | “Alignment is the real purpose behind the ceremonies. And if the POs are there, they are much more likely to be aligned.” |

---

Key Takeaways

• Product Owners truly succeed when they embed themselves in the Scrum team, acting as peer collaborators, not detached backlog managers.
• A leadership void emerges if POs distance themselves, causing stakeholder chaos and team disengagement.
• Successful teams are built on trust, open communication, alignment, and shared responsibility for success.
• Organizational siloes make this harder, but intentional relationship-building, ceremony attendance, and feedback-seeking bridge the gap.
• The simple, everyday choices of a PO—being present, transparent, and responsive—have outsized impact on team morale and output.

---

Connect with the Guest

• Nate Amidon on LinkedIn: Nate Amidon
• Form 100 Consulting: form100consulting.com

---

This summary captures the core lessons and practical advice from Vasco Duarte and Nate Amidon's discussion—an essential listen for Product Owners and Agile practitioners seeking to strengthen their team leadership and collaboration skills.

Transcript

[A]

Hello, everyone. Quick heads up before we start today's episode. The Global Agile Summit is happening on May 4th. Yes, May 4th. And even with a big blowout Star wars party, you have to join. It will be online and it's like always free to attend. We have four tracks this year that I'm really excited about and I think you will too. Stick around to the end of the episode to know what they are. If you want to check it out already now you can check it out at bit ly globalagile 26. That's the numerals 2 and 6 at the end. So one more time, that's bit ly globalagile 2, 6, all one word, all lowercase. And 2 and 6 are the numerals 2 and 6. So stick around till the end of the episode and I'll tell you what's in store. But for now, on to today's episode. Hi there, everybody. It is Friday here on the podcast and we have with us for the product owner and TGIF episode, Nate Amidon. Hey, Nate, welcome back.

[B]

Hey, we made it to Friday.

[A]

We made it to Friday. One more week check. All right, so Friday, of course, is product owner day here on the podcast and we'll talk about what great product owners do in a minute. But before that, share with us. Nate, the worst potentially product owner anti pattern that you've witnessed in your career.

[B]

Well, I mean, I look at the product owner position as a kind of a leadership position because ultimately they, they are responsible, ultimately responsible for the backlog. That doesn't mean they own the backlog. Roughshot people can't collaborate on the backlog. But, you know, at the end of the day, there needs to be one person deciding priority. And I think that the product owner should be doing that. And so when I see failures from a product owner, they usually revolve around that, not really embracing that leadership role and especially leadership of the backlog. And so, you know, I. And so when you learn in the military and have a military background that, you know, leadership is really care and feeding of, of the people. And so, and I think if you're in a product owner position and you aren't doing that, you're not, you don't feel like you're part of the team. Right. And so when I see that anti pattern, I'll see things like, you know, you're just throwing things over the fence and telling them, telling your engineers and the team executing the work to figure it out. You don't care enough to beef out the user stories. You just Kind of say, we need this, go do it. I don't have time. If you're constantly changing priorities and not worried about the downstream effect of what that, of what that means. Not, not considering, you know, just the fact that a team spent two weeks working on something that was a priority two weeks ago and they're close to being finished and then you scrape it. So not really. Just not being part of the team, I think is, is where I see the biggest. Yeah, it's where I see the biggest anti patterns.

[A]

So not being part of a team can have many forms. And you, you've already given us an insight hint of what that could look like. But tell us a little bit more. When you're looking at it as a scrum master and you observe stakeholder behavior, not just the product owner, but stakeholder behavior, so the team itself and then people around, what patterns do you witness when the product owner is behaving that way? That is not being part of the team.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, what was with stakeholders? And you know, so every team's going to have a ton of stakeholders usually that are all. That are all around the, all around the team. And so when you're a product owner, you should be the one that's getting those requests, filtering, prioritizing them and then, you know, making sure that the team is spending, spending their time in the most efficient manner. And so when you have a product owner that's not really viewed as part of the team, then you start getting all the shoulder taps, you start getting the direct requests, you start getting competing stakeholders where it turns into like a corporate Game of Thrones type of thing. Right. Like which director has the bigger proverbial dragon in the organization. And teams can get whiplashed around and then the product owner is not really available or there to help make that prioritization decisions.

[A]

And when you look at the team, one of the things that I'm really interested is how it feels inside the team. So I imagine that it feels like one of the things you already said. Here's the story, I don't have time to detail. Just do it. Right, like just do it. Oh, here's another one, just do it. That kind of thing. And it feels for the team as maybe dismissive, not taking into account their contribution, maybe even their perspectives, which then leads to disengagement, which then leads to just tell me what to do type of attitude. Is that what you see? Are those the patterns that you see when you think about the interaction between that kind of PO and the team themselves?

[B]

Yeah, I Mean, they don't think the product owner cares because it comes back to people. And so they don't have trust in the product owner. Eventually it becomes just a leadership void on the team that someone will step up and fill, you know, and usually it's an engineer or so I've seen. You know, I've done it. Or I've just said, all right, I'll. I'll quasi product owner here. Right, yeah, because they're, they're, they're just ignoring their duties of backlog prioritization and organization. And, and so it just, it drives more tension in the team and. Yeah. And then, you know, and I think the engineering teams, they care less about making the product owner look bad.

[A]

We just did what you told us.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

When you hear that phrase, your red flag should all go up at the same time.

[B]

Right, right. And so it's such a critical position for an effective scrum team that. Yeah, it takes someone that really understands how to build a team and build trust inside of a team. And. Yeah, I mean, we do that a lot as well. Right. I mean, we, we actually will. We'll bring in product owners for that reason.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Because it is such a critical position. And we'll hear just how amazing they can be. Next, because Nathan is about to share with us the best product owner you've ever worked with. Nate, how did they work?

[B]

So the best product owners I work with are really part of the team. They're the opposite of what I said. And so what does that mean? Like, so if you're, if you're a product owner listening to this right now, you should attend all the, all the ceremonies possible. If you're in a daily standup, you should give your daily standup status. I think product owners should talk about what they worked on, what they completed, what they're going to work on, if they have any blockers, because they're. The product owner is like in the proverbial trenches. Right. I mean, they're part of this team shoulder to shoulder. They're also great idea radars. They listen to people when they have ideas and, and they, they're not dismissive because they realize that, that the team is going to generate better ideas than them. And so. Yeah, and then they just, they just build good relationships, they build trust, and they don't, you know, just because it's a leadership position from the backlog perspective is not a leadership position for the team. Right. Like, we're all in the same team. We're all equals. We're all doing a Certain part to really, you know, maximize the value for the team.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that this being part of the team can have many different perspectives, angles. One is just like what you said, very practical, very pragmatic. Be part of the team's actions and activities. Right. Like, be part of the meetings, sit next to them if you can, or attend the remote calls if you must. But the other aspect that I think also kind of follows from that is that you need to feel that as a product owner, I mean, you need to feel that the team's success is my success. Like, I can't succeed without them, they can't succeed without me. Right. Because very often in not all, but many organizations, product owners are kind of siloed away from the teams. In some cases, they might even be part of another department reporting to another leadership line than what the teams do, which naturally creates conflicts. Now, I'm not saying that's a guarantee of failure. Of course it's not, because it's all about people in the end, but. But it's a red flag that we should pay attention to and perhaps put a little bit more effort into getting them together. So for me, and I want to hear your thoughts on that, Nate. For me, the product owner being on the team means not only attending the meeting, just like you said, it does do that, but it also means that I feel an allegiance to the people I work with. They are my team. They are not a team that works for me.

[B]

Right, absolutely. And I think that mindset like what you just said is they are like, I, I'm a part of this team, these are my teammates, is really important from a product owner perspective. And you're right. There are very. It's very common to see siloed leadership structures in product and engineering. You know, especially the bigger your organization is, the more likely you're going to have product director and product VP and chief product officer. And, you know, they may never link arms until the CEO. And so, and then there are a lot of times there's nothing you can do about that. Right. But when you build that allegiance and you feel like you have a responsibility to do something for the betterment of your team, your backlogs are going to look more organized, you're going to have be a better priority, they're going to be more flushed out, you're going to ask for feedback on how to make them better, and you're going to be responsive.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And the team will tell you if you allow them, if you're being responsive or not. So seek that feedback as well.

[B]

Right. And it doesn't mean you have to drop everything all the time. Right. Like, everyone understands that you, maybe you're dealing with stakeholders or you're in other meetings, you're on client visits. Like, everyone gets that. But. But the small things matter. And you know, and you want to just always project that your teammates, you're doing different roles, but you're on. You're on the same team.

[A]

Yeah. And I remember something you said also in our previous episode together, that alignment is the real purpose behind the ceremonies. And if the POs are there, they are much more likely to be aligned. Yes, Nate, it's been a pleasure. We're getting close to the end here. But before you go, where can people find out more about you? Form 100 and the work that you're doing?

[B]

Yeah, so I'm basically on LinkedIn only. All right. You won't find me on TikTok. And so you find Nate Amadon on LinkedIn. And then our website is form100consulting.com and we have a bunch of great information on our website. Feel free to check it out.

[A]

Absolutely. We'll put the link to all of those to make sure that people can easily find it and reach out to Nate, ask a few follow up questions. That's how we learn and we grow as a community. Nate, on the behalf of our audience, thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.

[B]

Yeah, I love talking about this stuff. So I really appreciate you having me on Vasco.

[A]

Hi there, friends. Thanks for sticking around till the end of the episode. So let me tell you what's coming on May 4th. We're running the Global Agile Summit. It will be online and I want you there this year. We have four tracks and each one is built around real conversations with practitioners. No slides, no keynote theater, just honest interviews with people doing the work. Just like you. The first track is AI in organizations where practitioners show what actually works. No hype, just AI that makes your Monday better. Happy Monday, everybody. And then we have the people track honest conversations about putting humans into at the center of how we work and keeping them there. And third is Agile in construction. And yes, I really mean brick and mortar construction. Lean and agile. Actual job sites. Field leaders Removing waste. Teams transforming how buildings get built. Stay tuned for what I think will be a super track on Agile in construction. And the fourth track is Agile in Gaming. How game studios ship without burning out. Agile Inside the Creative Pressure Cooker. Over the years, we've had more than 12,000 participants. Since 2017, the time of the first summit organized with the podcast. And this year we we're making it easier than ever to join. You can register for free and get access to the summit sessions live during the event week. That's May 4th to May 6th. Or you can grab the Practitioner Pass and get immediate access to last year's keynotes from Jurgen Apollo, Gojko Adzic, and Mirete Cangas right now, even before the summit starts. So grab your Practitioner Pass and start learning today. Head on over to Bitly GlobalAgile 26. That's 2, 6. The numerals 2 and 6 sign up and I'll see you on May 4th. And one more time, here we go. Bit. Ly. GlobalAgile 26. All lowercase, all one word, and 26. That's the numeral 2 and the numeral 6. I'll see you on the conference floor.