The Parade of Trades—Teaching Flow in Construction | Luca Cotta Ramusino

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches

Episode Summary: "The Parade of Trades—Teaching Flow in Construction" with Luca Cotta Ramusino

Release Date: June 18, 2025
Host: Vasco Duarte, Agile Coach, Certified Scrum Master, Certified Product Owner

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte welcomes Luca Cotta Ramusino, an expert in introducing lean and agile methodologies within the construction industry. The conversation delves into practical strategies for implementing agile principles in traditionally rigid environments like construction projects.

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2. Change Strategy in Introducing Lean and Agile to Construction [01:27]

Luca emphasizes the complexity of integrating lean and agile practices into construction projects. He underscores the necessity of a well-thought-out change strategy that goes beyond superficial implementation.

Luca Cotta Ramusino [01:45]: "You can't just parachute consultants from outside on the construction site and expect everything to magically fall into place."

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3. Importance of Gaining Buy-In from Crews [01:45]

A critical aspect Luca highlights is securing buy-in not only from management but, more importantly, from the on-ground crews. He stresses the importance of demonstrating the tangible benefits of lean practices to those directly involved in the work.

Luca Cotta Ramusino [01:45]: "Show them what's in it for them."

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4. Teaching Through Simulation and Exercises [02:00]

Drawing parallels to the iconic "Karate Kid" movie, Luca advocates for starting with seemingly unrelated exercises that build foundational skills essential for agile practices. These exercises are designed to ease teams into new methodologies by making abstract concepts tangible.

Luca Cotta Ramusino [03:33]: "One of the most famous quotes from Karate Kid is 'wax on, wax off.'... It turned out to be a very effective carrying technique to deflect blows by an opponent."

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5. The Parade of Trades Simulation [04:00]

One of the standout tools Luca uses is the "Parade of Trades" simulation. This exercise involves different crews working at varying speeds on a simulated construction project, such as building and refinishing a 30-floor hotel. The simulation vividly illustrates that inconsistent work speeds among teams can lead to bottlenecks, ultimately negating any speed advantages.

Luca Cotta Ramusino [06:00]: "The total time it takes to build this 35-floor hotel does not depend on how fast everyone is going, but rather on how predictably everyone is going."

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6. Relationship to Theory of Constraints and Drum-Buffer-Rope [07:13]

Vasco connects Luca's simulation to established concepts like the Theory of Constraints and the Drum-Buffer-Rope technique. This alignment reinforces the importance of identifying and managing the bottleneck in any process to optimize overall workflow.

Vasco Duarte [07:13]: "When you were telling that story, I got reminded of the theory of constraints and the drum buffer rope technique."

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7. Setting Takt Time According to the Slowest Process [07:30]

Luca explains the concept of takt time, emphasizing that the workflow should align with the pace of the slowest process in the project. Pushing faster work in other areas without addressing the slowest step can exacerbate delays and quality issues.

Luca Cotta Ramusino [07:36]: "You should set the takt at the speed of the lowest step in the site."

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8. Consultant's Role: From Facilitator to Support [08:22]

Addressing team dynamics, Luca discusses the evolving role of a consultant. Initially, consultants facilitate learning and adaptation through games and simulations. Over time, as teams internalize these practices, consultants transition to a background support role, fostering self-sufficiency.

Luca Cotta Ramusino [08:22]: "I start with games and simulations and then as they become familiar with the concept, I slowly move into the background."

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9. Building Team Self-Sufficiency [09:44]

Echoing a common consultant mantra, Luca likens effective consultants to good psychiatrists—becoming invisible once their work is internalized by the team. This approach ensures that teams can sustain agile practices independently without ongoing external assistance.

Luca Cotta Ramusino [09:44]: "A good consultant is like a good psychiatrist. If he's very good, he will find himself without work to do."

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10. Emphasizing Team Ownership and Responsibility [10:07]

Luca addresses a common misconception where teams may attribute their productivity gains to the presence of consultants. He clarifies that the true drivers of success are the teams themselves, emphasizing ownership and accountability.

Luca Cotta Ramusino [10:07]: "You're the experts in installing whatever. Installing windows... these are physical windows, not operating system windows."

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11. Closing Thoughts and Emphasis on Team Ownership [11:07]

As the conversation wraps up, Luca reiterates the importance of team empowerment and the sustainable adoption of agile practices. His insights provide valuable guidance for Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches aiming to implement lean methodologies in construction and similar industries.

Luca Cotta Ramusino [11:00]: "System windows, actual windows that you can open. Yeah."

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Conclusion

This episode offers a profound exploration of integrating agile and lean practices into the construction sector. Through engaging simulations like the "Parade of Trades" and analogies drawn from popular culture, Luca Cotta Ramusino provides actionable strategies for fostering team buy-in, managing workflow constraints, and ensuring sustainable change. Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches can glean valuable lessons on facilitating meaningful transformations that resonate with on-ground teams, ultimately driving efficiency and quality in complex projects.

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Notable Quotes:

• Luca Cotta Ramusino [03:33]: "It's like, okay, I see how this applies to my job."
• Vasco Duarte [07:13]: "When you were telling that story, I got reminded of the theory of constraints and the drum buffer rope technique."
• Luca Cotta Ramusino [09:44]: "A good consultant is like a good psychiatrist. If he's very good, he will find himself without work to do."

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For Further Learning: To dive deeper into agile practices and access a wealth of resources, consider joining the Scrum Master Toolbox Membership. Engage with a community of practitioners, participate in live workshops, and enhance your agile expertise.

Transcript

[Vasko]

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[Luca Cottaramusino]

Hello everybody. Welcome to our Wednesday the Leading Change, or Change leadership episode as I like to call it this week with Luca Cottaramusino. Hey Luca, welcome back.

Hello Vasco. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

So Wednesdays change and of course I'm sure you have faced many change processes in your life, especially introducing lean and agile thinking in construction. So how do you go about introducing these methods into a construction project? What's your change strategy?

Okay, I think we already mentioned that it's important to get buy in from, from the crews you are going to be working with. You know, not, not just management, the, the, the, the guys who hired you to go to the construction site, but from the actual crews. So show them what's in it for them. But one of the most important lessons I learned is that you and I learned it the hard way. You can't just parachute consultants, you know, from outside on the construction side and then everything by magic will just fall into place. Okay. Especially because some of the lean construction techniques are very different from what everyone has been doing until that moment. So the same as I experienced a culture shock when I first started studying lean, I expect that people on site will experience the same hold for shock. So to get buy in. Well, initially. Okay, I'm, I'm old enough to have seen a movie called Karate Kid.

Indeed.

And, well, I guess some of your listeners are too young, but you know, look it up, rent it is probably still on Netflix or other platforms. Anyway, the, the karate teacher, Mr. Miyagi was trying to teach this young hoodlum karate so that he would not get beaten up by, by bullies. And he began by giving him things that look like mindless exercises. One of the most famous quotes from Karate Kid is wax on, wax off. Okay? So the Japanese teacher said, you know, you put the wax on cars, he had the kids wax cars. So wax on with your right hand, wax off with your left hand and don't switch the two. And that turned out that it was a very effective carrying technique, you know, to deflect blows by an opponent, to deflect an attack by an opponent. So I start with exercises that give you. Okay, if I was telling a story, that would be the moral of the story. In the case of an exercise, it's like, okay, I see how this applies to my job. So, you know, I have them do little games and simulations. One that is very popular is called parade of trades. A parade of trades is different crews that need to build and refinish like a tower block, like a 30 floor hotel. Okay. And it's simulated on paper and you roll dice and it shows you that it doesn't matter if one crew is going at twice the speed of every other crew because that crew sooner or later will hit a wall. They will hit the crew that's been doing work before them and they're going faster. So that if this crew is going faster, pretty soon they will have nothing to do because no work is ready for them. And then this. And what you do is you show them the total time it takes to build this 35 floor hotel does not depend on how fast everyone is going, but rather on how predictably everyone is going so that you know how much ready work you have for you to complete.

Yeah, and actually that's a very good point. When you were telling that story, I got reminded of the theory of constraints and the drum buffer rope technique. And of course we also have that in lean that you should.

How do.

You say you should set the takt. I think that's the term that we use this time.

Yes.

You should set the tact at the speed of the lowest step in the site. Or in your case, the site. In our case, the development project. Because if you put a lot more work into a team or a specialty that is going slow, you're actually making that specialty or that skill even slower, which then creates all kinds of other problems, not the least of which low quality when it comes to software, for example. And how do the teams then react? Right, because you were addressing the culture shock with this kind of simulation. So how do teams usually react when they finally realize this? From the Simulation.

You could say that I start with games and simulations and then as they become familiar with the concept, I slowly move into the background. So I might start by facilitating meetings and conversations. And then as time passes, the teams become more self sustaining, so I move into the background. There's a running joke among consultants. So a consultant is. A good consultant, is like a good psychiatrist. If he's very good, he will find himself without work to do, you know, and after, after a while, the teams become self sufficient and self sustaining. So my role becomes that of support.

Absolutely. That's a great point. And also kind of that gradual validation that the change is working, that people are taking responsibility, people are doing things on their own. Also, no matter how many lean and agile consultants you have in a construction site, they will not be able to be everywhere.

Yeah, that is, you know, this is something that many teams don't seem to grasp. You know, they're thinking, oh, we are being so productive because we have this consultant in the room. And I tell them, no, no, no, look at this whiteboard or what have you. Look at these posts. I'm just the guy with, with the magic marker. But it's you who, who did the work. I just copied it to the whiteboard. But you're the experts in, you know, installing whatever. Installing windows.

Yeah. And these are physical windows, not operating.

System windows, actual windows that you can open. Yeah.

[Vasko]

That was a great story. Thank you for sharing that with us.

[Luca Cottaramusino]

Luca, welcome.

[Vasko]

All right, I hope you liked this episode, but before you hit next episode, here's the deal. This podcast is powered by people like you, the members who wanted more than just inspiration. They wanted real tools and real connection to people who are practicing agile. Every day we're talking access to over 700 hours of agile gold, CTO level strategy talks, summit keynotes, live workshops, E courses, Deep dive interviews, books. And if you're into no estimates, we got the pioneers of no estimates in those Deep Dive interviews as well. Agile Business Intelligence, creating product visions, coaching your product owner courses, you name it. You'll get invites to monthly live Q&As with agile pioneers and practitioners, plus a private Slack community which is free of all of that AI slop you see everywhere. And of course, without the flame wars. It's a community of practitioners that want to learn and thrive together. It's the best place to connect with community and learn together. So if this podcast has helped you before, imagine what you will get from this podcast membership. So head on over to scrummastertoolbox.org membership and join the community that's shaping the future of Agile. We have so much for you, so check out all the [e-mail] membership because listening is great. It's important. But doing it together, that's next level. I'll see you in the community. Slack we really hope you liked our show.

[Luca Cottaramusino]

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[Vasko]

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[Luca Cottaramusino]

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[Vasko]

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