The Power Dynamics of Product Ownership | Chris Sims

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches Episode: The Power Dynamics of Product Ownership | Chris Sims Release Date: April 25, 2025

---

Introduction

In this insightful episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte, a seasoned Agile Coach and Certified Scrum Master, engages in a compelling conversation with Chris Sims, an experienced Agile Coach and Product Owner. The discussion delves into the intricate dynamics of product ownership within Agile teams, highlighting both common pitfalls and exemplary practices that can significantly impact a team's success.

---

Identifying Anti-Patterns in Product Ownership

The Proxy Product Owner

At the [01:38] mark, Chris Sims introduces one of the most detrimental anti-patterns he has observed in his career: the Proxy Product Owner. This scenario occurs when an individual acts as a Product Owner for the team but lacks the ultimate authority, which resides with a higher-level stakeholder.

Chris explains:

"There is somebody else above them who has the ultimate authority and can swoop in at any time and change everything... the team loses confidence in that product." [01:38]

Key Issues:

• Lack of Empowerment: The proxy PO often feels disempowered, leading to delays as they need to seek approval from the higher authority.
• Communication Breakdown: This creates a "game of telephone," where essential decisions and feedback get lost or miscommunicated.
• Team Confidence Erosion: The team's trust in the Product Owner diminishes, affecting morale and productivity.

Interventions to Mitigate the Proxy PO Anti-Pattern

Chris outlines two effective interventions to address this issue:

1. Empowering the Proxy PO:

   • Grant Full Authority: Elevate the proxy PO to the actual Product Owner role.
   • Stakeholder Management: The former higher-up becomes an important stakeholder whose opinions are valued but do not override the empowered PO.

   Chris states:

   "Things start to work a lot better when the empowered person is making the call." [03:15]

2. Directly Assigning the Higher Authority as PO:

   • Increased Involvement: The higher authority takes on the PO role, leading to more direct influence over the product.
   • Trade-Off: While their market and customer insights remain strong, their availability for the team may decrease.

   Chris elaborates:

   "Their influence over the product will be greatly increased... we're going to be building a better product." [04:10]

---

Attributes of an Exemplary Product Owner

Case Study: Brad's Effective Product Ownership

Transitioning from anti-patterns, Vasco prompts Chris to share his experiences with outstanding Product Owners.

Chris shares the story of Brad:

"Brad had really deep knowledge of the end users and the customers... he spent a lot of time with the team helping us really understand and empathize with our users and stakeholders." [05:20]

Key Characteristics of Brad:

• Dual Understanding: Brad comprehended both the end-users (daily product users) and the customers (decision-makers).
• Stakeholder Relationships: He maintained strong connections with IT governance personnel, essential for product success in regulated environments like investment banking.
• Empathy Building: Brad facilitated team empathy by organizing interactions with actual users, leading to features that genuinely addressed user needs.

Impact of Empathy on Product Development

An illustrative example revolves around keyboard shortcuts. Initially dismissed by the team, Brad's insistence on ergonomic efficiency was grounded in real user behavior.

Chris recounts:

"We actually, suddenly we were on board with like, oh, okay, what's the keyboard shortcut?... it was that sort of thing that Brad was really good at doing, like, building that empathy with our users." [07:57]

---

Effective User Story Development

Focusing on 'Who' and 'Why'

Chris emphasizes the importance of understanding who the stakeholders are and why certain features matter, rather than getting bogged down in the specifics of what to build.

Chris advises:

"We really need to focus a lot more on the outer two [Who and Why]. Who are we doing this for and why does it matter?" [09:28]

Benefits:

• Enhanced Clarity: Clear understanding of user needs leads to more meaningful and impactful product features.
• Increased Team Motivation: Teams feel more connected to the purpose behind their work, boosting morale and engagement.

---

Conclusion and Resources

As the conversation wraps up, Vasco encourages listeners to connect with Chris and explore further resources.

Chris shares his contact information:

"The best place to find me online is agilelearninglabs.com." [10:30]

Vasco also promotes the upcoming Global Agile Summit, highlighting its value for Agile professionals seeking fresh insights and community connections.

---

Key Takeaways

• Avoiding Anti-Patterns: Ensuring that Product Owners are fully empowered is crucial for team efficiency and confidence.
• Empathy is Essential: Deep understanding of users and stakeholders leads to better product decisions and team alignment.
• Clear User Stories: Focusing on the "who" and "why" enhances the relevance and impact of product features.
• Continuous Learning: Engaging with the Agile community through events like the Global Agile Summit can provide valuable knowledge and networking opportunities.

---

Further Information

• Global Agile Summit Website: globalagilesummit.com
• Chris Sims' Website: agilelearninglabs.com

---

This episode offers valuable insights into the power dynamics of product ownership within Agile frameworks, providing actionable strategies to enhance team performance and product success.

Transcript

[Host]

Have you ever wondered what it really takes to make Agile work well? At the Global Agile Summit, we're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action. Whether you're a leader, a product innovator, a developer, you'll hear practical insights from those who've done it. They'll be telling their own stories from the stage. I'll tell you more about this at the end of this episode. So stay back and listen to the full detailed description of what we have in store for you at the Global Agile Summit. But if you can't wait, you can go right now to globalagilesummit.com and check out our full schedule for now onto the episode. But I'll see you at the end of this episode with more details on the Global Agile Summit. Talk to you soon. Hello everybody. Welcome to our Friday PO&TGIF episode, of course, this week with Chris Sims. Hey Chris, welcome back.

[Chris Sims]

It's good to be back. I can't believe it's Friday already.

[Host]

Yeah, time flies when you're having fun, right? So, Chris, we'll talk about what great product owners look and sound like in a second. But before let's do the opposite, let's go through the anti pattern. So share with us potentially the worst product owner anti pattern you've witnessed in your career.

[Chris Sims]

Yeah, the one that I've seen most often. So I'll call this one the worst. I have a bonus one if you want it. But the one I've seen most often is a pattern that is often called the proxy product owner. And this pattern is this person is acting as the product owner for the team. Right. They're there at the meetings, they're the one doing the day to day ordering of the product backlog and you know, all of that stuff. But there is somebody else above them who has the ultimate authority and, you know, can swoop in at any time and change everything. And very often that person is someone who has, you know, great product knowledge. They spend a lot of time out with customers, they're going to strategic meetings in the company. Right. They're someone who's very high up in the product food chain. It's an anti pattern though, because very quickly the team loses confidence in that product. Proxy product owner. Right. They realize that, oh well, whatever guidance they give us, you know, might change without notice. And oftentimes that proxy product owner doesn't feel fully empowered to make decisions and so they'll delay things because they're like, oh, I have to go check with the quote unquote real product owner. And so we end up with this game of telephone, right? That takes a long time. And so in those situations where we have the disempowered proxy product owner, there's like one of two interventions that seem to work. Intervention number one is empower that person, make them the product owner, right? And then that other person who is the quote unquote real product owner, they become a very important stakeholder, right? There's someone whose opinion matters a lot. We want to keep them happy, we want to engage with them as frequently as we can. But ultimately it's our, our product owner, right? The person who formerly was the proxy who is making the call, who is empowered to make the call. And, you know, things start to work a lot better. The other way you can go with that one is to say, okay, that person, that, you know, powerful, high up person, they're going to come and be the team's product owner, right? We're going to, you know, not have this proxy anymore. In order to do this though, they're going to have to spend more time with the team. And that means that they'll be spending a little less time with customers. And in strategic meetings and things like that, their understanding of the market will be degraded, right. Because they're not spending as much time with those people. However, their influence over the product will be greatly increased. And so ultimately we're going to be building a better product. So either of these two interventions I have witnessed work really well. But the proxy product owner caught in the middle, that one rarely works well.

[Host]

Yeah, that we've seen that before. Of course, there are cases in which the proxy PO is a necessity, for example, when that higher PO really isn't available. And then maybe with your first intervention, trying to get the decision power to that proxy PO to make sure that they are able to help unblock the team when there are questions. But of course, there aren't only bad product owners, there are also some amazing, brilliant product owners out there. So, Chris, share with us the best product owner you've ever worked with. How did they work?

[Chris Sims]

Yeah, yeah, and I'm going to name him, right? Maybe he'll even hear this. I don't know. So my very first Scrum team, right, we were actually doing extreme programming. As I mentioned on Monday, we had this product owner named Brad. And Brad was amazing. And what made him amazing was he had really deep knowledge of the end users and the customers, right? End users being the people who use the product every Day customers being the decision makers who would decide to buy the product. This particular product was for the investment banking industry. And so the people making the decision were not actually the people with hands on the keyboards using the product. And he understood both. He also really understood the world of the people who were in some ways the gatekeepers to whether or not anyone could use our product, which was like the IT governance people at big investment banks. So they were key stakeholders for this product success as well. And he really understood their world. He had relationships that allowed him to get very close to these people. And he spent a lot of time with the team helping us really understand and empathize with our users and stakeholders. So we, you know, there were, there were certain things, for example, that initially we thought were just like, I don't know, silly maybe. Like, he was adamant that anything that you could do in the product with a mouse, you had to be able to do with a good ergonomic keyboard shortcut. And he was a maniac about these keyboard shortcuts. And we're like, oh my goodness, why is Brad so hung up on keyboard. Keyboard shortcuts of all things? And then he actually got us out a couple of times to meet some of the people who were using our product. And, you know, developers, at least some developers are amazingly fast typists. These people were faster than we were by a lot. And these people were working under really insane deadlines. And so speed was really important to them. And every time they had to take their fingers off the keyboard, right, to go do something with the mouse, it kind of broke their flow and getting to know them and see what they do and see how they work. We actually, suddenly we were on board with like, oh, okay, what's the keyboard shortcut? Oh, no, that.

[Host]

And you were the ones hung up on the shortcuts.

[Chris Sims]

We were all about it. And it was that sort of thing that Brad was really good at doing, like, building that empathy with our users.

[Host]

Reminds me of the chief engineer role in the Toyota car development process, which is exactly that kind of person. The person who is kind of, how do you say, completely obsessed with how the customers will use the product in the end, right? Like, and they bring that. And I remember one story where they were developing a van for the US market and the chief engineer wanted the van to have this lay flat back where you could put the, I don't know what they are called, two by fours or whatever that people use for home improvement. And the engineers back in Japan had no idea of this, of course. And they Were why would that be? Because it makes the car more, you know, heavier and whatever. And so the, the, the chief engineer goes to home improvement shop and tapes hundreds of families doing exactly that, putting those two by fours into their vans and then takes those into the team in Japan and forces them to watch all of those videos.

[Chris Sims]

I love that.

[Host]

In Japan that's possible. Right? In other countries maybe that's not possible anymore. But anyway, that led the team to really deeply to get the intuition of what was being communicated, which would not be possible through. Through a requirements document.

[Chris Sims]

Yeah, yeah. And it kind of gets to something that when I'm coaching product owners, I really stress, which is, you know, the three line format that's so popular for user stories. Right. As a type of stakeholder, I want this deliverable so that some values created. I think in general people spend way too much time detailing that middle part, which is what should you build? Right. Telling people, telling the team what to build. Where we really need to focus a lot more on the outer two. Who are we doing this for and why does it matter? Because I think when we understand who the user is, who the stakeholder is and like what problem they're trying to solve, we're going to build a better product and again, we're going to feel better about it because we understand why we're doing it.

[Host]

Yeah. More motivated. Well, it's been such a great week, Chris. Thank you very much for sharing all of that wisdom with us. But before we go, where can people find out more about you and the work that you're doing?

[Chris Sims]

The best place to find me online is agilelearninglabs.com and we'll put the link.

[Host]

To that in the show notes, of course.

[Chris Sims]

Excellent. Thank you.

[Host]

And of course, why not go there and send some questions, some follow up questions and get in touch with Chris, make sure that you get your questions there and connect and learn because that's what we do as a community. We learn from each other. Chris, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.

[Chris Sims]

Oh, I'm very happy to do it. Thanks for having me.

[Host]

Hey friend, thank you for staying here. Is all you need to know about the Global Agile Summit. If you've ever suffered or know people who are suffering from agile fatigue, this event is for you. Agile fatigue is that feeling that settles in when we can't really see a light at the end of the tunnel. We get discouraged. Especially when conversations revolve around the same old frameworks, the same old buzzwords. And theories. We don't feel that energy anymore. Well, the Global Agile Summit is a different kind of event. We're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action and transform the way you work. The Global Agile Summit will happen In Tallinn, Estonia, May 18th. That's the workshop day, then 19th and 20th, the conference day. And Talinestone is one of the most innovative tech hubs in Europe. The Global Agile Summit is hosted together with Latitude 59, which is kind of a citywide celebration of software startups and groundbreaking ideas. And we'll have a shared ticket for you to attend those events as well. So who will be speaking? Well, we've got an incredible lineup of thought leaders in software and agile. For example, Clinton Keith, the person who wrote, literally wrote the book on game development with Scrum and is busy bringing Agile to the world of game development. You must check his session. The very famous and well known Jurgen Apello, author of Management 3.0, will be talking and exploring about AI's impact on leadership. We also have Goiko Adsic, who's taking an unconventional look at product growth with his Lizard Optimization keynote. Other speakers include, e.g. sig Sven Dietz, who's challenging everything we know about software development by ditching, literally ditching contracts and estimates. Can you imagine his teams deliver software before their competitors are even done with a contract negotiation? How agile is that? But there's more. We'll cover engineering practices in our developer track with talks on, for example AI assisted test driven development, developing products in minutes with a different approach to how we develop, configure, deploy platforms, and much more. We also have a product track where we cover cutting edge ideas around product discovery, delighting customers with product delight frameworks. We'll have a talk about that. And we also have an Agile business track where we will talk about, for example Open strategy, a very agile approach to managing organizations, and delivering software faster to clients faster than you can even write a contract. Literally. I mean, I already told you about Svendeet's story is amazing. It definitely is a must see. I'm sure you'll be inspired and get a lot of ideas for your own software projects and software delivery. Now, whether you're a business leader, a product innovator or a developer, you'll definitely find value in our three focused tracks. That's Agile Business for those working with businesses and organizations, Agile Product for product managers, product owners and innovators, and Agile Developer for the builders making agile work in practice. The coders, the testers, the designers, the producers, the Scrum masters, you name it. If you join, you will meet over 200 agile professionals from all over the world. People who, just like you, want to grow, want to share, and want to learn. By challenging the ideas that don't work anymore at the Global Agile Summit, you'll get new connections, fresh ideas, and the energy to take your own Agile to the next level. And who knows, maybe even find your next career opportunity. So don't miss out. Check out the full program and grab your ticket [e-mail] I'm really looking forward to seeing you all in Tallinn, Estonia in May. I'll see you there.