The Power of Being Heard, Turning Critics Into Agile Advocates | Carmen Jurado

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches

Episode Summary: "The Power of Being Heard, Turning Critics Into Agile Advocates | Carmen Jurado"

Release Date: April 29, 2025
Host: Vasco Duarte, Agile Coach, Certified Scrum Master, Certified Product Owner
Guest: Carmen Guerra Jurado, Experienced Scrum Master and Agile Coach

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte welcomes Carmen Guerra Jurado to discuss the transformative power of active listening and empathy in Agile teams. The conversation delves into Carmen's experiences as a Scrum Master, highlighting how she successfully turned a vocal critic into a passionate Agile advocate within her team.

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Inspiring Literature: "Joy, Inc." by Richard Sheridan

Carmen begins by sharing a book that profoundly influenced her career:

“Joy, Inc. by Richard Sheridan is a treasure trove of practical insights on creating a joyful and productive workplace. It drives home the idea that when work is enjoyable and fulfilling, it leads to higher quality products and a more engaged team.”
— Carmen Guerra Jurado [01:27]

Key Insights:

• The importance of creating a joyful work environment.
• Practical strategies for team collaboration and experimentation.
• Real-world examples showcasing Agile principles without explicitly mentioning Agile terminology.

Notable Story: "High Tech Anthropologists" Carmen recounts a pivotal story from the book demonstrating the necessity of understanding team members' real-world challenges:

“They built an iPad for mechanics who wore gloves, making the touchpad ineffective. By adapting the technology to meet the users’ needs, they resolved the issue without overcomplicating the product.”
— Carmen Guerra Jurado [04:26]

This story underscores the value of empathy and user-centric design, aligning seamlessly with Agile methodologies.

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Team Tuesday: Navigating Team Dynamics and Resistance

Carmen shares a compelling narrative about transforming team dynamics within a large power supply company.

The Challenge:

• A senior team member with 35 years at the company became a vocal critic of Agile transformations.
• This individual influenced younger team members negatively, leading to demotivation, lack of communication, and isolation within the team.

Carmen’s Approach:

1. Building Individual Relationships:

   • Conducted one-on-one conversations to establish mutual expectations.
   • Emphasized openness, curiosity, and empathy to rebuild trust.

   “I always have one-on-one conversations with team members and ask them what I can expect from you, and share what you can expect from me. This openness was crucial in building a high-performing team.”
   — Carmen Guerra Jurado [05:35]

2. Fostering Communication:

   • Encouraged team members to engage and collaborate openly.
   • Addressed unresolved conflicts through proactive discussions.

3. Patience and Persistence:

   • Recognized that behavioral changes take time.
   • Maintained consistent efforts through retrospectives and team meetings.

Turning the Tide:

• Over the course of a year, the senior critic felt heard and understood.

• Gradually, this individual shifted from being a saboteur to one of the team’s most vocal advocates.

  “In the end, that person was one of our biggest promoters. If you had asked me a year ago, I would have said, no way, that's not possible.”
  — Carmen Guerra Jurado [10:20]

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Key Takeaways and Insights

1. Active Listening Transforms Team Dynamics:

   • Listening to team members fosters trust and opens pathways for positive change.

2. Empathy Over Blame:

   • Understanding the underlying reasons for resistance can turn critics into allies.

   “When you're resisting something, it also means loyalty towards something else. If you have conversations with them to understand what they are loyal to, you can realign their motivations.”
   — Carmen Guerra Jurado [11:20]

3. Systemic Approach to Team Management:

   • Building relationships with every team member, not just a few, is essential for a cohesive team.

   “Good relationships don't mean being nice; it's about being open and honest without blaming.”
   — Host [10:14]

4. Patience is Key:

   • Transforming team culture and individual behaviors requires sustained effort and patience.

5. Perseverance Pays Off:

   • Even entrenched resistance can be overcome with the right approach, leading to a more engaged and high-performing team.

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Global Agile Summit Promotion

Towards the end of the episode, Vasco Duarte promotes the upcoming Global Agile Summit in Tallinn, Estonia, highlighting its focus on real-life Agile success stories, innovative practices, and networking opportunities with over 200 Agile professionals. The summit aims to combat Agile fatigue by presenting fresh ideas and actionable insights.

Event Highlights:

• Dates: May 18th (Workshop Day), 19th & 20th (Conference Days)
• Location: Tallinn, Estonia – a leading tech hub in Europe.
• Key Speakers:
  • Clinton Keith on game development with Scrum.
  • Jurgen Apelo on AI's impact on leadership.
  • Goiko Atsic on product growth with Lizard Optimization.
  • Sig Sven Dietz challenging traditional software development practices.

Tracks:

• Agile Business: Strategies for managing organizations and accelerating software delivery.
• Agile Product: Innovations in product discovery and customer delight frameworks.
• Agile Developer: Cutting-edge engineering practices, including AI-assisted Test Driven Development.

“Join us to meet like-minded professionals, gain fresh ideas, and take your Agile practices to the next level.”
— Vasco Duarte [13:03]

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Conclusion

This episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast offers valuable lessons on the significance of empathy, active listening, and patience in fostering a positive Agile environment. Carmen Guerra Jurado’s story serves as an inspiring example of how dedicated Scrum Masters can transform team dynamics, turning critics into advocates and building high-performing, cohesive teams. Additionally, the promotion of the Global Agile Summit provides listeners with an exciting opportunity to further their Agile knowledge and connect with a global community of professionals.

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Recommended Listening:
For those looking to enhance their Agile practices and turn team resistance into support, this episode provides actionable insights and inspiring stories to guide your journey.

Further Resources:

• Book Mentioned: Joy, Inc. by Richard Sheridan
• Global Agile Summit: globalagilesummit.com

Transcript

[Vasco]

Have you ever wondered what it really takes to make Agile work well? At the Global Agile Summit, we're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action. Whether you're a leader, a product innovator, a developer, you'll hear practical insights from those who've done it. They'll be telling their own stories from the stage. I'll tell you more about this at the end of this episode. So stay back and listen to the full detailed description of what we have in store for you at the Global Agile Summit. But if you can't wait, you can go right now to globalagilesummit.com and check out our full schedule for now onto the episode. But I'll see you at the end of this episode with more details on the Global Agile Summit. Talk to you soon. Hello everybody.

[Host]

Welcome to our Team Tuesday. This week we have with us Carmen Guerra Jurado.

[Vasco]

Hey Carmen.

[Host]

Welcome back.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Hi Vasco. Thank you.

[Host]

So Tuesday is of course Team Tuesday here on the podcast. But before we dive into the team story, do share with us. Carmen, what's the book that most inspired you in your career as a Scrum Master?

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

That was such a difficult question and I'm looking to the side because that's where my bookcase is. But I picked one and I actually have it here, which is Joy, Inc. I don't know if you know it. You do know it.

[Host]

Yes.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

So it's Joy Inc. It's by Richard Sheridan and for me it's really kind of like a treasure trove of practical insights on creating a joyful and productive workplace. And it kind of really drives home this idea that when work is enjoyable and fulfilling, it leads to higher quality products and a more engaged team. And he does such an amazing job at describing his like his company, which is Menlo Innovations, and he talks about everything from the hiring process to team collaboration and the importance of experimentation and learning from mistakes. This should all sound very familiar as agilists. The thing that I really enjoy about this book is he doesn't mention agile once. The word agile is mentioned once in this book and I think one of the stories that I also really use when I'm giving workshops or trainings is the story where they, I think it was called High Tech Anthropologists. So he states, and I'm just going to quote it because I wrote it down, he states, we need to study people in their native environment to figure out how to bring them utility and joy. And one of the examples he Gives is their company. They build an iPad and built a software for an iPad for like mechanics in garages. Right. And the mechanics weren't using the iPads and they were like why are they not using these iPads that we built for them with the software that they need to put in, you know, the parts that they use and everything. So they send one of those high tech tech anthropologist to the garages and it turns out that the mechanics, when they work on the cars they wear gloves because you know, grease, oil and everything they had. It wasn't a touchpad. It was, it was kind of like a touchpad but it needed like the physical touch of your hands and it didn't work for them because they were wearing gloves. And that was the reason they weren't using those iPads because they're not going to take off their gloves and then put in the thing. So what I really love with app inside, they kind of changed the iPads to like touch pressure iPads so they could use the iPads even with the gloves. Yeah. And I was like that is such a, that's such an incredible thing. They never would have found out what the reason was that the mechanics weren't using their product.

[Vasco]

So I, they would probably have added.

[Host]

Like hundreds of new features to make it more appealing or something like that.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Exactly. No, something as simple as, you know, it doesn't work with gloves on. So I genuinely believe everyone that asks me about like what book should I read as a starting Scrum Master, as a starting product owner or anyone involved in agile practices. I always recommend this book because to me really captures the essence of the agile mindset in such a beautiful way. So yeah, and I also have, as you can see, I have like little post its for quotes and stuff because I just, I enjoy reading it over and over again or just little bits of it.

[Host]

So I would say Joy Inc. That's a great endorsement. Thank you for that. We'll put the link to the book in the show notes so that people can easily find it.

[Vasco]

Of course.

[Host]

Yeah, but Carmen, of course Tuesday is team Tuesday here on the podcast and we want you to tell us a story of a team. Like walk us through the small events and steps through which those behaviors or attitudes within the team grew and eventually became a problem for the team.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Yeah, so this was still at the, at the large power supply or energy supply company I worked and we as Scrum masters had this little community and I had had my own team for air for about a year and the Scrum Master of this specific team was really struggling and they had asked me to be the Scrum Master of that team. So it would be my second team in about like a year and a half. And the reason they were struggling was because of this senior member and basically their own resistance to change. And you have to realize this was someone that was working at that company for longer than I had been alive at that time. So I think I was like 31 or something. And they had been working at the company for 35 years, had gone through multiple transitions and transformations. I see you nodding. We all have met one of these people kind of viewed this agile transformation really skeptically, had become really vocal in his criticism and was. You could almost label them more as a vocal saboteur than a critic, honestly. And they were really influencing these new and younger team members in a really negative way. And it kind of demotivated the whole team. They didn't really communicate within the team anymore. They avoided discussing any issues which led to more unresolved conflicts. And because they weren't communicating and basically shying away from discussions, they were also not contributing any new ideas or suggestions. I mean, why would you. Right. It could only lead to more conflict, so it wasn't really promoted. Isolation was also really a big issue within the team. So the idea or the agreement that we had was that all team members were supposed to like sit together when they were working at the office, right? And this team, like we were people, were sitting in, in solitary workspaces rather than collaborating with their team members and sitting in the same spot. So it made it even more difficult to foster communication and you know, in the end achieve their collective goals. And as their new Scrum Master, I kind of focused on building first individual relationships and setting clear expectations, clear mutual expectations, to be more specific. So I always is my go to modus operandi, as I stated, I always have like one on one conversations with team members and I ask them what can I expect from you? And then I share, this is what you can expect from me. And I really feel that that kind of openness and curiosity in another person were really crucial in building a good jelt and high performing team. So like empathy and understanding. In the end it turned out that the senior member was feeling unheard and thus was lashing out. Right. And when they noticed with me and also with other team members that we were actually listening to their ideas, I mean it took a year. I also have to say that. But after that year or during that year and during many retros and many one on one conversation, many Team conversations. That critic actually turned into like one of the biggest promoters and really wanted to do what was best for the team and what was best for the company. And I think we achieved that, like I said, with just a lot of patience, empathy and just like being understanding towards each other.

[Host]

One of the things that you're implicitly referring to, that I want to highlight is that it is a process that requires many adaptations to how we relate to the people in the team. Right. Because the team is a whole system. And it's not enough to have a good relationship with a couple of people in the team. We need to have a good relationship with all of them. Now, now, good relationship doesn't mean we need to be Mr. Nice People. We can be as tough on the problems and as demanding with our performance as anyone else. It's not about being nice, it's about being open and honest.

[Vasco]

Right.

[Host]

And of course not blaming because the moment we start blaming, we lose people immediately.

[Vasco]

Absolutely.

[Host]

And for me, one of the things that I want to highlight is that this person started as the most vocal critic and over time became the most vocal advocate.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Absolutely.

[Host]

And I think that this testifies to the importance of building those relationships because we can turn a non functional or dysfunctional team into a high performing team. It takes time, it takes effort, it takes experience and knowledge to do that, of course, but it is possible.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

It is possible. It also takes patience, if I'm being honest. And most of the time it also takes two steps forward, one step back. But if you are patient, it could really create beautiful things. Like I said, in the end, that person was one of our biggest promoter. And if you had asked that of me a year ago or a year prior, I would have said, no way, that's not possible.

[Host]

It's such an inspiring story. I've seen this happen so many times where people who are resistant and maybe even against certain things, whatever that may be, test driven development, trunk based development, agile adoption, it doesn't matter what that thing is, they are just against that. But over time, when they feel heard and understood and they can participate in how that gets applied, they become their most vocal advocates.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Yeah. And I do feel, and this is something I learned in recent years with like systemic coaching, when you're resisting something, it also means loyalty towards something else. Right. So that person was really loyal to maybe the old way that we were working. And it's, it's, it's too easy to just be like this person is resisting. He is, or she or they are a critic, a saboteur, you know what, we're just going to move them to the side, ignore them and go on. No, that criticism comes from, comes from somewhere, right? And most of the time it's loyalty towards something else. And if you have conversations with them and see, okay, so what are you loyal to? And maybe it's something that you don't realize that is also in this new situation, it's just, maybe it has a different coat on, you know, it has a different sauce. But hey, the essence of, of what you were loyal to is still here. Then, you know, you can, you can, you can really.

[Host]

Well, like I said, absolutely. And it's such an inspiring story. Thank you for sharing that, Carmen.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

You're welcome.

[Vasco]

Hey friend, thank you for staying here. Is all you need to know about the Global Agile Summit. If you've ever suffered or know people who are suffering from agile fatigue, this event is for you. Agile fatigue is that feeling that settles in when we can't really see a light at the end of the tunnel. We get discouraged. Especially when conversations revolve, revolve around the same old frameworks, the same old buzzwords and theories. We don't feel that energy anymore. Well, the Global Agile Summit is a different kind of event. We're bringing you real life first person stories of agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action and transform the way you work. The Global Agile Summit will happen In Tallinn, Estonia, May 18th. That's the workshop day. Then 19th and 20th, the conference day. And Tallinn, Estonia is one of the most innovative tech hubs in Europe. The Global Agile Summit is hosted together with Latitude 59, which is kind of a citywide celebration of software startups and groundbreaking ideas. And we'll have a shared ticket for you to attend those events as well. So who will be speaking? Well, we've got an incredible lineup of of thought leaders in software and agile. For example, Clinton Keith, the person who wrote, literally wrote the book on game development with Scrum and is busy bringing Agile to the world of game development. You must check his session. The very famous and well known Jurgen Apello, author of Management 3.0, will be talking and exploring about AI's impact on leadership. We also have Goiko Atsic, who's taking an unconventional look at product growth with his Lizard Optimization keynote. Other speakers include, for example, Sig Sven Dietz, who's challenging everything we know about software development by ditching, literally ditching contracts and estimates. Can you imagine his teams deliver software before their competitors are even done with a contract negotiation? How Agile is that, but there's more. We'll cover engineering practices in our developer track with talks on for example AI assisted test driven development, developing products in minutes with a different approach to how we develop, configure, deploy platforms, and much more. We also have a product track where we cover cutting edge ideas around product discovery, delighting customers with product delight frameworks. We'll have a talk about that. And we also have an Agile Business track where we will talk about for example Open strategy, a very agile approach to managing organizations and delivering software faster to clients faster than you can even write a contract. Literally. I mean, I already told you about Svendeet's story is amazing. It definitely is a must see. I'm sure you'll be inspired and get a lot of ideas for your own software projects and software delivery. Now whether you're a business leader, a product innovator or a developer, you'll definitely find value in our three focused tracks. That's Agile Business for those working with businesses and organizations, Agile Product for product managers, product owners and innovators and Agile Developer for the builders making agile work in practice. The coders, the testers, the designers, the producers, the scrum masters, you name it. If you join, you will meet over 200 agile professionals from every all over the world. People who just like you, want to grow, want to share and want to learn by challenging the ideas that don't work anymore at the Global Agile Summit, you'll get new connections, fresh ideas and the energy to take your own agile to the next level. And who knows, maybe even find your next career opportunity. So don't miss out. Check out the free full program and grab your ticket [e-mail] I'm really looking forward to seeing you all in Tallinn, Estonia in May. I'll see you there.