Podcast Summary: The Product Owner Who Made Retros Unsafe (And How We Fixed It)

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast | Host: Vasco Duarte | Guest: Terry Haayema
Release Date: September 26, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Vasco Duarte and Agile Coach Terry Haayema explore the complex dynamic between Scrum Masters, Product Owners, and teams—especially focusing on how Product Owner behaviors can both harm and enhance team safety and productivity. Terry candidly shares a story about one of the worst Product Owner anti-patterns he’s witnessed: a Product Owner who made retrospectives unsafe. He contrasts this with a highlight of the best Product Owner he’s worked with, whose approach fostered genuine connection and customer empathy within the team. The episode is rich in actionable insights for Scrum Masters and Agile practitioners striving to create safer, high-performing teams.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining the Product Owner Role (01:25–01:48)

• Context Setting:
  The episode opens with Vasco emphasizing the critical nature of the Product Owner role within Scrum, asking Terry for both worst and best examples from his experience.
• Key Theme:
  How Product Owners’ approaches fundamentally shape team dynamics and outcomes.

2. The Product Owner Anti-Pattern: Making Retros Unsafe (01:48–06:58)

• Background:
  Terry recounts an experience with a Product Owner who had been thrust into the role from a traditional management background, unprepared for Agile’s collaborative culture.

• Problematic Behaviors:

  • Managerial Mindset: Product Owner approached the team expecting them to deliver on process-based KPIs, focusing on “number of widgets delivered,” which clashed with Agile values.
  • Undermining Psychological Safety in Retrospectives:
    • “He would come to the retro and call people out for things that had not been done or had not been done to his level of satisfaction. And you can imagine that the team retreated.” – Terry (02:19)
  • Impact on Team:
    • “No people like being spoken to like that. But even the people who hadn't been called out retreated.” – Terry (02:38)

• Coaching Attempts and Interventions:

  • Terry tried to introduce the retrospective prime directive, clarify the importance of team reflections, and use “gentle coaching” and interrupts to protect individuals, but nothing worked due to the Product Owner's lack of self-awareness.
  • SBI Feedback Model: Focused on describing the Situation, Behavior, and Impact when providing feedback.

• Turning Point:

  • Terry chose to move the retrospective to a new time and location and did not invite the Product Owner, hoping the exclusion would prompt reflection and change.
    • Memorable moment:
      “So I booked the retro for a different room at a different time and didn't invite him.” – Terry (04:27)
  • When the Product Owner asked why he was excluded, Terry used the SBI model to explain the impact of his behavior—this was the catalyst for a breakthrough.
    • “It was actually being excluded from the invitation that in this case helped him to see his behavior differently.” – Terry (05:27)

• Lesson Learned:

  • Conventional coaching, even when persistent, sometimes fails to shift awareness; a “shock moment,” like exclusion, can be necessary to prompt reflection.
    • “Sometimes people are at the level of self-awareness that talking about creating awareness is not going to create awareness. You have to create kind of a shock moment, right?” – Vasco (07:10)

3. The Role of “Shock Moments” in Coaching (06:58–08:32)

• Vasco’s Reflection:
  Vasco points out he would hesitate to recommend such an extreme intervention but acknowledges its power in rare cases.
  • “It's still a shock moment when you finally realize that, hey, they're not even inviting me anymore. That gets us as people. It gets us back to that moment in school where we were not invited to play a special game…” – Vasco (07:27)
  • Emphasizes the emotional impact and the necessity of sometimes going beyond rational discussion.

4. The Best Product Owner: From Voice to Connector (08:32–12:29)

• Introduction to the “Great” Product Owner:
  Terry shifts to celebrate a Product Owner who demonstrated exceptional leadership by being more than just the “voice” of the customer.

• Key Characteristics & Practices:

  • Role as a Connector:
    • “The product owner I'm going to talk to you about as being the great PO saw it much more as being the connector between the team and the customer.” – Terry (09:03)
  • Customer Connection Events:
    • Organized informal gatherings (“pizza and beer” sessions) where team members, business stakeholders, and customers mingled and shared real experiences.
    • These laid-back social events created empathy and a direct understanding of customer needs, rather than relying solely on documentation or process.
  • Outcome:
    • The most successful feature the team ever built—reordering from the last six customer orders—came directly from a conversation at one of these events.
      • “We literally came up with a feature that saved customers a whole lot of time by just presenting them all their last six orders… We would never have thought to do that, but it was just through conversations.” – Terry (10:36)

• Team Impact:

  • Team engagement and motivation soared; the direct connection nurtured empathy and ownership.

• Key Takeaway:

  • The best Product Owners do more than shepherd a backlog—they actively cultivate relationship-building and invite customers into the product development journey.

5. Resources & Ways to Connect (12:29–14:07)

• Terry shares his willingness to connect via LinkedIn and discusses his contribution to the community through organizing Agile Tour Sydney and offering free online resources.
• Highlights his book, which focuses on individual agility rather than just team or organizational agility.

Notable Quotes

• On unsafe retrospectives:
  “He would come to the retro and call people out for things that had not been done or had not been done to his level of satisfaction.” – Terry (02:19)
• On team reaction:
  “But even the people who hadn't been called out retreated.” – Terry (02:38)
• On the value of unexpected interventions:
  “It was actually being excluded from the invitation that in this case helped him to see his behavior differently.” – Terry (05:27)
• On product owner as connector:
  “…the great PO saw it much more as being the connector between the team and the customer…help the team to get inside the head of the customer and understand the customer by interacting with real people…” – Terry (09:10)
• On team-driven innovation:
  “The single best feature we ever built came from one of those conversations.” – Terry (10:25)
• On coaching through exclusion:
  “Sometimes people are at the level of self-awareness that talking about creating awareness is not going to create awareness. You have to create kind of a shock moment, right?” – Vasco (07:10)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:11 – Episode intro; product owner roles introduced
• 01:48 – Worst PO anti-pattern described
• 02:19 – Unsafe retrospectives and team retreat
• 04:27 – Excluding PO from retro as intervention
• 05:27 – PO’s moment of realization
• 06:58 – The role of “shock moments” in awareness
• 08:32 – Transition to best PO example
• 09:03 – Reframing PO as customer connector
• 10:25 – Real-world customer connection leading to innovation
• 12:29 – Resources, events, and contact info

Conclusion

This episode paints a vivid picture of how Product Owner behavior can make or break psychological safety and team efficacy. Through story and reflection, Terry and Vasco offer listeners both cautionary tales and inspiring examples, arming Scrum Masters with practical insights for fostering healthier, more creatively responsive Agile teams.