Episode Overview

Title: The Scrum Master Who Learned That Perfect Boards Don’t Build Perfect Teams
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Carmela Then (Senior Business Analyst, Certified Advanced Scrum Master)
Release Date: January 5, 2026

This episode explores the sometimes painful but essential role of failure in the journey of a Scrum Master, as Carmela Then shares her personal story of trial, error, and learning. The conversation goes beyond process mechanics, focusing on the human and leadership aspects necessary for building effective teams, especially in the face of political and interpersonal challenges.

Main Theme

Learning from Failure: Why Technical Perfection Isn’t Enough for Team Success
Carmela recounts her first major failure as a Scrum Master, emphasizing the difference between performing the tasks of Scrum and truly leading a team. Her experience reveals how a focus on process and appearances can obscure the real need: humble, people-centered leadership, especially during conflict. The episode illustrates the importance of embracing failure, connecting with teams on a human level, and aligning efforts towards shared goals.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Carmela’s Path to Scrum Mastery (02:08 - 03:18)

• From Business Analyst to Scrum Master: Carmela shares that her journey was not planned—she was motivated by a love of learning and admiration for her Agile coaches.

• Seeing Scrum Master as a Stepping Stone: Her initial intention was to become an Agile coach, with being a Scrum Master as the essential first step.

  "I just go around and tell people that I would like to become a Scrum Master. Because it is a stepping stone for me to become an agile coach." (B, 02:41)

2. Cultural Views on Failure & Personal Growth (04:04 - 07:40)

• Background Pressure: Growing up in Malaysia, Carmela felt intense pressure to be among the top performers, carrying a stigma around failure.

• Adapting to Agile Mindsets: She describes the struggle to unlearn this and instead embrace the Agile notion of “failing forward.”

• Influence of John C. Maxwell’s Work: Maxwell’s concept of “Failing Forward” helped her see failure as an opportunity for growth.

  "At the first few months or first few years, it was actually very tough for me because I didn’t know how to fail. And now that I’m actually embracing failure…" (B, 04:33)

3. The Failure Story: Focusing on Process Over People (04:04 - 08:37)

• Overconfidence in Process: Carmela’s initial confidence stemmed from training and familiarity with Scrum mechanics (writing user stories, maintaining a Scrum board).

• Mistaking Technical Perfection for Leadership: She invested time in crafting a “beautiful” physical Scrum board in a banking environment, but overlooked her team’s real needs.

• Lack of Vulnerability: She felt compelled to appear competent, hiding her inexperience instead of being open and fostering collaboration.

• Toxic Environment: The team suffered from internal conflicts, specifically between two product owners (POs) vying for control. Carmela tried to support just her PO instead of mediating and uniting the teams.

• Consequences: The unresolved conflict led to division, employee departures, and promotions/demotions rooted in politics, not teamwork.

  "My failure was I didn't really recognize, like, the need of my team. They actually didn't need the beautiful scrum board. They actually needed someone who is very humble and could tell them that, 'Oh, I am new here… let’s do it together.'" (B, 05:53)

  "Instead of being... the mature person, saying that, hey, we are in this together... I didn't do that. So in the end, I was thinking that I should help my PO in terms of establishing her ground. So… that environment become very toxic." (B, 07:43)

4. The Realization: Task vs. Purpose of Scrum Mastery (08:37 - 09:40)

• Tasks vs. Outcomes: Vasco and Carmela discuss the crucial difference between “doing” Scrum (tasks/meetings/artifacts) and fulfilling the role’s true purpose—which is team leadership and fostering shared goals.

• Scrum Board ≠ Team Success: Keeping ceremonies and artifacts in order is not a failure, but missing the broader team and human dynamics is.

  "There’s a difference between being good at the tasks of being a Scrum Master and being good at the purpose of being a Scrum Master." (A, 08:38)

5. Reflection & Advice—What Carmela Would Do Differently (10:49 - 12:22)

• Find Common Ground: She advises focusing on what unites teams—the shared customer, organization, or goal.

• Recenter on People and Outcomes: Instead of division and personal agendas, shift to outcome-focused conversations.

• Prioritize Human Needs: Bringing empathy and humility to the role is vital; shared purpose and customer value trump individual egos.

  "What I would do differently is to look at what these two teams have in common, what they are actually trying to achieve and put the human part back into the center… to focus on the outcome rather than focus on ourselves." (B, 11:02)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:08] Carmela’s background & move into Scrum Mastery
• [04:04] Cultural and personal perspectives on failure
• [05:53] The “beautiful board” mistake & consequences
• [07:43] Team conflict and political fallout
• [09:40] Analysis: Tasks vs. purpose of Scrum Mastery
• [11:02] Carmela’s practical advice for future Scrum Masters

Notable Quotes

• On the limits of process:

  "They actually didn’t need the beautiful scrum board. They actually needed someone who is very humble and could tell them that, 'Oh, I am new here… let’s do it together.'" (B, 05:53)

• On learning from failure:

  "I’m actually embracing failure because of this great leadership guru, John C. Maxwell… how to turn a failure into a positive experience." (B, 04:37)

• On the role of a Scrum Master:

  "The failure part is instead of like leading the team to work to, to work toward a common vision and a goal, I was probably one of the persons that helps the divide…" (B, 09:51)

• Advice to other Scrum Masters:

  "Put the human part back into the center… focus on the outcome rather than focus on ourselves." (B, 11:07)

Tone & Takeaways

• Candid and humble: Carmela’s story is both personal and illustrative, marked by vulnerability and a willingness to share her mistakes for the benefit of others.
• Reflective and encouraging: The tone is supportive, providing practical takeaways for listeners facing similar team or political challenges.

Actionable Insights for Scrum Masters

• Don’t mistake technical competence or tool mastery for true team leadership.
• Be open about your learning journey; humility can build trust faster than perfection.
• In high-conflict or political environments, prioritize uniting around the shared goal—customer value and organizational purpose.
• Regularly ask: does your team need process, or do they need a human connector?

For anyone seeking to go beyond “by-the-book Scrum,” Carmela’s story is a reminder: tools and ceremonies are the scaffolding, but people and shared purpose are what build resilient, successful teams.