The Scrum Master Who Learned That Perfect Boards Don't Build Perfect Teams | Carmela Then

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: The Scrum Master Who Learned That Perfect Boards Don’t Build Perfect Teams
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Carmela Then (Senior Business Analyst, Certified Advanced Scrum Master)
Release Date: January 5, 2026

This episode explores the sometimes painful but essential role of failure in the journey of a Scrum Master, as Carmela Then shares her personal story of trial, error, and learning. The conversation goes beyond process mechanics, focusing on the human and leadership aspects necessary for building effective teams, especially in the face of political and interpersonal challenges.

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Main Theme

Learning from Failure: Why Technical Perfection Isn’t Enough for Team Success
Carmela recounts her first major failure as a Scrum Master, emphasizing the difference between performing the tasks of Scrum and truly leading a team. Her experience reveals how a focus on process and appearances can obscure the real need: humble, people-centered leadership, especially during conflict. The episode illustrates the importance of embracing failure, connecting with teams on a human level, and aligning efforts towards shared goals.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Carmela’s Path to Scrum Mastery (02:08 - 03:18)

• From Business Analyst to Scrum Master: Carmela shares that her journey was not planned—she was motivated by a love of learning and admiration for her Agile coaches.

• Seeing Scrum Master as a Stepping Stone: Her initial intention was to become an Agile coach, with being a Scrum Master as the essential first step.

  "I just go around and tell people that I would like to become a Scrum Master. Because it is a stepping stone for me to become an agile coach." (B, 02:41)

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2. Cultural Views on Failure & Personal Growth (04:04 - 07:40)

• Background Pressure: Growing up in Malaysia, Carmela felt intense pressure to be among the top performers, carrying a stigma around failure.

• Adapting to Agile Mindsets: She describes the struggle to unlearn this and instead embrace the Agile notion of “failing forward.”

• Influence of John C. Maxwell’s Work: Maxwell’s concept of “Failing Forward” helped her see failure as an opportunity for growth.

  "At the first few months or first few years, it was actually very tough for me because I didn’t know how to fail. And now that I’m actually embracing failure…" (B, 04:33)

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3. The Failure Story: Focusing on Process Over People (04:04 - 08:37)

• Overconfidence in Process: Carmela’s initial confidence stemmed from training and familiarity with Scrum mechanics (writing user stories, maintaining a Scrum board).

• Mistaking Technical Perfection for Leadership: She invested time in crafting a “beautiful” physical Scrum board in a banking environment, but overlooked her team’s real needs.

• Lack of Vulnerability: She felt compelled to appear competent, hiding her inexperience instead of being open and fostering collaboration.

• Toxic Environment: The team suffered from internal conflicts, specifically between two product owners (POs) vying for control. Carmela tried to support just her PO instead of mediating and uniting the teams.

• Consequences: The unresolved conflict led to division, employee departures, and promotions/demotions rooted in politics, not teamwork.

  "My failure was I didn't really recognize, like, the need of my team. They actually didn't need the beautiful scrum board. They actually needed someone who is very humble and could tell them that, 'Oh, I am new here… let’s do it together.'" (B, 05:53)

  "Instead of being... the mature person, saying that, hey, we are in this together... I didn't do that. So in the end, I was thinking that I should help my PO in terms of establishing her ground. So… that environment become very toxic." (B, 07:43)

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4. The Realization: Task vs. Purpose of Scrum Mastery (08:37 - 09:40)

• Tasks vs. Outcomes: Vasco and Carmela discuss the crucial difference between “doing” Scrum (tasks/meetings/artifacts) and fulfilling the role’s true purpose—which is team leadership and fostering shared goals.

• Scrum Board ≠ Team Success: Keeping ceremonies and artifacts in order is not a failure, but missing the broader team and human dynamics is.

  "There’s a difference between being good at the tasks of being a Scrum Master and being good at the purpose of being a Scrum Master." (A, 08:38)

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5. Reflection & Advice—What Carmela Would Do Differently (10:49 - 12:22)

• Find Common Ground: She advises focusing on what unites teams—the shared customer, organization, or goal.

• Recenter on People and Outcomes: Instead of division and personal agendas, shift to outcome-focused conversations.

• Prioritize Human Needs: Bringing empathy and humility to the role is vital; shared purpose and customer value trump individual egos.

  "What I would do differently is to look at what these two teams have in common, what they are actually trying to achieve and put the human part back into the center… to focus on the outcome rather than focus on ourselves." (B, 11:02)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:08] Carmela’s background & move into Scrum Mastery
• [04:04] Cultural and personal perspectives on failure
• [05:53] The “beautiful board” mistake & consequences
• [07:43] Team conflict and political fallout
• [09:40] Analysis: Tasks vs. purpose of Scrum Mastery
• [11:02] Carmela’s practical advice for future Scrum Masters

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Notable Quotes

• On the limits of process:

  "They actually didn’t need the beautiful scrum board. They actually needed someone who is very humble and could tell them that, 'Oh, I am new here… let’s do it together.'" (B, 05:53)

• On learning from failure:

  "I’m actually embracing failure because of this great leadership guru, John C. Maxwell… how to turn a failure into a positive experience." (B, 04:37)

• On the role of a Scrum Master:

  "The failure part is instead of like leading the team to work to, to work toward a common vision and a goal, I was probably one of the persons that helps the divide…" (B, 09:51)

• Advice to other Scrum Masters:

  "Put the human part back into the center… focus on the outcome rather than focus on ourselves." (B, 11:07)

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Tone & Takeaways

• Candid and humble: Carmela’s story is both personal and illustrative, marked by vulnerability and a willingness to share her mistakes for the benefit of others.
• Reflective and encouraging: The tone is supportive, providing practical takeaways for listeners facing similar team or political challenges.

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Actionable Insights for Scrum Masters

• Don’t mistake technical competence or tool mastery for true team leadership.
• Be open about your learning journey; humility can build trust faster than perfection.
• In high-conflict or political environments, prioritize uniting around the shared goal—customer value and organizational purpose.
• Regularly ask: does your team need process, or do they need a human connector?

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For anyone seeking to go beyond “by-the-book Scrum,” Carmela’s story is a reminder: tools and ceremonies are the scaffolding, but people and shared purpose are what build resilient, successful teams.

Transcript

[A]

Hey there, agile adventurer, just a quick question. What if for the price of a fancy coffee or half a pizza, you could unlock over 700 hours of the best agile content on the planet? That's audio, video, E courses, books, presentations, all that you can think of. But you can also join live calls with world class practitioners and hang out in a flame war free and AI slop clean slack with the sharpest minds in the game. Oh, and yes, you get direct access to me, Vasko, your Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. No, this is not a drill. It's this Scrum Master Toolbox membership and it's your unfair advantage in the agile world. So if you want to know more, go check out scrummastertoolbox.org membership, that's scrummastertoolbox.org Membership. And check out all the goodies we have for you. Do it now. But if you're not doing it now, let's listen to the podcast. Hello everybody. Welcome to one more week of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast. And this week, joining us from beautiful and at the moment very warm Sydney in Australia is Carmela Dan. Hey Carmela, welcome to the show.

[B]

Hello Vasco. Thank you for having me here.

[A]

So let me introduce Carmela to all of you. She's a senior business Analyst with over 15 years in financial and mining sectors. She's also a certified and advanced Scrum Master and excels at leading agile initiatives, delivering business value and aligning technical outcomes with strategic goals. She supports energy data projects for example, and has worked with many teams in many different roles which is something that we will explore explore this week with Carmela. So Carmela, that was a short intro. Tell us a little bit more about yourself and how did you end up becoming a Scrum Master?

[B]

That's a great question. I actually ended up being a Scrum Master by chance. So I'm a type of person that loves to learn things and because as you say, I have a really strong business analyst background and after a while I just find it boring and at that time I was already working in like agile type of environment and I, I love it and I really totally looked up to my Agile coaches. So I asked them what do I need to do to become an Agile coach? They say, well step one, you have to be a Scrum Master. So when I heard them say that and I was like, okay, then I will be a Scrum Master then. So that's how I ended up with it. I just go around and tell people that I would like to become a Scrum Master. Because it is a stepping stone for me to become an agile coach. So. And yeah, and that's how I ended up as a Scrum Master.

[A]

Beautiful. Many of us have quite diverse stories of how we end up being, being a Scrum Master, but there's something that unites us all. And wanting to learn and wanting to help teams succeed is something that we all appreciate and have experienced, I'm sure, just like you did. But even though we try our best, sometimes just wanting to be a good Scrum Master is not enough. We do, all of us have failure stories and today's Fail Monday here on the podcast. So we want to explore one of those stories. Carmela, tell us the story, walk us through the steps, what was happening, what conversations were going on, and then we'll dive into the details and the takeaways. But first, tell us that story, as.

[B]

In how did I fail? And my very first failure story as a Scrum Master. Yeah, so true. And failure is what is the thing that make us who we are. Right? And for me, I actually grew up in Malaysia, so in my background, it is if you are not the top 10% or if you're not in the top 5%, you're a failure. So I grew up with that kind of, that kind of mindset. So I actually took that to work as well. And so to, you know, how Scrum, all of this is actually failing forward. Like, you learn from the mistakes and then you become better. But at the, the first, the first few months or first few years, it was actually very tough for me because I didn't know how to fail. And now that I'm actually embracing failure because of this great leadership guru, John C. Maxwell, I don't know whether you know him or not, and he's an advocate in terms of failing. So he actually have a book, he actually has a book called Failing Forward. So how to turn a failure into a positive experience. So anyway, in terms of the story about failing, so my first Scrum Master gig, and because it was my first time being a Scrum Master, I was excited. I thought I had done a few rounds of Scrum. I know how Scrum works. I've been to a few training and I know how to write a story card on an index card, then I think, great, I am armed with this knowledge, I can be a Scrum Master, right? But then, little did I know, it is completely different. It is very different in terms of me riding a card into leading a team who actually has very little Scrum experience to succeed. But then I had to put up that face, like, showing people that I was so great. I can build this beautiful Scrum board. At that time, back in the bank, we had a physical Scrum board. So you build it out on the board, I make sure all the lines were straight and, you know, pretend that I was, you know, a strong Scrum master. But the thing is, what I. My failure was I didn't really recognize, like, the need of my team. They actually didn't need the beautiful scramble. They actually needed someone who is very humble and could tell them that, oh, I am new here, like, I am learning as I am going, and let's. Let's do it together. So. And I tried so hard in, like, putting on this facade, saying that I was great, I can make it through. It was all very egocentric and there was a couple of teams and There were the two POs actually fighting against each other. So.

[A]

Oh, my God, that is not a good start.

[B]

No, it was a very political environment. So instead of being the person, being the mature person, saying that, hey, we are in this together, like, we are in this team, even though we are two different Scrum, but we are actually. We actually have a goal that, you know, we should work towards, like, together. So instead of. I didn't do that. So in the end, I was thinking that I should help my PO in terms of establishing her ground. So in the end, that environment become very toxic. One, one of the POs won the fight, of course, he got promoted, she got demoted, and a number of great people left the job, the employment. So, yeah, and that's a very.

[A]

So one of the things that you tell in your story is this. I guess we could call it the difference. The difference between being good at the tasks of being a Scrum Master and being good at the purpose of being a Scrum Master. Right. Like you were talking about having the beautiful board, maybe having all the meetings in the calendar on time, like, all of that stuff, which is also important. Let's not underplay that, because those are incredibly important infrastructure components for great successful teams.

[B]

But.

[A]

But at that time, you were in the middle of a political fight between two product owners. The team probably needed more support, more a friendly ally in the middle of the chaos that was that situation. Is that what you look at as the failure? Because, I mean, you know, setting up a great Scrum board and making sure it's up to date and all of that, that's not a failure, right? Like that. That. That is not enough to succeed. But. But that in itself is not a failure.

[B]

Yeah. That itself, setting up the scrum board is great. It's not a failure. But the failure is not recognizing the situation because scrum is great doing scrum. But scrum master's role, Scrum master has a really a strong leadership role requirement to become a leader among the team as well. They are like half of agile coach. So the failure part is instead of like leading the team to work, to, to work toward a common vision and a goal. And I was probably one of the person that helps the divide of the, the bigger team. So because of the, like the division between the team, rather help them unite, that has caused a lot of chaos and a lot of heartbreak and like losing, like losing the price, let's put it that way, and turmoil.

[A]

If, if you could go back like, well, what, what would you do differently? What are you maybe one, two or three tips you could share with the listeners out there that are perhaps in the same situation you were at the time?

[B]

Yeah, what I would do differently is to look at what these two teams have in common, what they are actually trying to achieve and put the human part back into the center. So that human could be customer, for example, or it could be the organization that we are working for, that we were working for at that time. So for example, what's the need of the customer that we are serving? So instead of the two teams are pitching against each other, rather than that turn the conversation into how can we do this together to achieve that goal and to focus on the outcome rather than focus on ourselves. Because I felt like that was too much of putting eyes on ourselves rather than putting eyes on the others, which is, you know what, scrums, I feel like that's agile, the true meaning of Agile, actually focus on customer, focus on the goal, what matters, rather than personal gain.

[A]

Absolutely. That's a great reminder. Thank you for sharing that with us, Carmela.

[B]

Okay, that's very welcome.

[A]

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