The Visionary vs The Micromanager - Two Product Owner Extremes | Mariano

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: "The Visionary vs The Micromanager – Two Product Owner Extremes"

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Mariano Gonciar
Date: September 5, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores the contrasting behaviors of Product Owners (POs), focusing on two extremes: the "Task Manager" or Micromanager PO, and the "Visionary and Facilitator" PO. Mariano Gonciar, an experienced Agile practitioner, shares real-life stories highlighting the failures and successes of Product Owners, offering practical advice for Scrum Masters and Agile teams on fostering effective collaboration and ownership.

---

Main Discussion & Key Insights

1. The Micromanager Product Owner: "Task Manager PO"

[01:35 – 05:48]

• Definition of the Anti-pattern:
  Mariano recalls working with a well-intentioned but problematic PO who micro-managed the team, specifying every technical detail and solution in user stories.

  "He believed his job was to give us, in great details, the instruction for every single task or user story. In the backlog was a very long list of steps to follow with predefined technical solution."
  — Mariano Gonciar [01:42]

• Effects on the Team:

  • The team felt stripped of creativity and agency.
  • Developers became task executors, not problem solvers.
  • Daily Scrum felt like reporting, not collaboration.

  "They have no space for creativity...They become simple task executor instead of solution thinker."
  — Mariano Gonciar [02:14]

• Addressing the Issue:
  Mariano engaged the PO in one-on-one coaching to shift their approach:

  • Explained the proper PO role: focus on the "what" and "why", not the "how".
  • Introduced the user story formula ("As a type of user, I want...")
  • Together, they rewrote backlog items centered on customer value over technical instructions.

  "We rewrote the backlog story to focus on the customer value, not technical steps."
  — Mariano Gonciar [03:23]

• Team Transformation:
  The PO’s openness to feedback led to:

  • More collaborative refinement sessions.
  • Developers could ask questions, propose solutions, and adjust scope.
  • A more empowered, valued, and effective team.

  "Developers could ask questions, propose solutions, estimate, even change the scope...the team feels valued and the PO gets more robust solutions."
  — Mariano Gonciar [05:23]

2. The Visionary Product Owner: "Visionary and Facilitator PO"

[06:34 – 12:28]

• Profile of a Great PO:
  Mariano shares an experience from Telecom Group during an Agile transformation.

  • The PO had a clear product vision and strong facilitation skills.
  • Regularly shared a well-defined roadmap with both team and stakeholders.
  • Focused on explaining “why” features mattered for customers and business outcomes.

  "He didn’t just talk about the future. He talked about why they were important for the customer and the business."
  — Mariano Gonciar [07:12]

• Handling Stakeholder Pressure:

  • The PO could skillfully say "no" to misaligned feature requests—even from senior leaders.
  • Rather than accepting all demands, the PO considered their strategic fit and negotiated trade-offs.

  "He listened careful(ly), but then respectfully told him it wasn't aligned with the product vision...I can do it, but what will we have to stop doing more important, right?"
  — Mariano Gonciar [08:20]

• Protecting Team Focus:

  • Did not simply relay every stakeholder feature demand to the team.
  • Used the roadmap to assess and communicate what changes were feasible, balancing priorities.
  • Created a constructive environment for both team and stakeholders, minimizing context-switching and churn.

  "If you have a real roadmap...not because a stakeholder needed something, you put this in the next sprint. You need to understand what happened with that."
  — Mariano Gonciar [10:00]

  "Like a firewall for the team...he know(s) the vision and share(s) this vision."
  — Mariano Gonciar [11:56]

• Approach in Practice:

  • Brought team and stakeholders together for strategic discussions.
  • Used the roadmap as a living document to provide transparency and context.
  • Fostered a step-by-step approach, ensuring everyone understood the near-term priorities.

  "Then they show your roadmap to the team and to the stakeholder and create a quiet space to the team and to the stakeholder...step by step."
  — Mariano Gonciar [11:09]

3. Overall Lessons for Scrum Masters and POs

• Value of Feedback and Reflection:
  A PO's willingness to learn and adjust is key to team effectiveness.

• Balance Visionary Leadership with Facilitation:
  The best POs provide direction, prioritize ruthlessly, and protect teams from reactive backlog churn.

• Collaboration over Command and Control:
  Teams are most effective when given room to contribute solutions, not just execute orders.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "He believed his job was to give us, in great details, the instruction for every single task or user story..."
  — Mariano Gonciar [01:42]

• "They become simple task executor instead of solution thinker."
  — Mariano Gonciar [02:14]

• "We rewrote the backlog story to focus on the customer value, not technical steps."
  — Mariano Gonciar [03:23]

• "(As a great PO), he talked about why they were important for the customer and the business...He had a well-defined roadmap that they regularly shared with the team and the stakeholder."
  — Mariano Gonciar [07:12]

• "He listened careful(ly), but then respectfully told him it wasn't aligned with the product vision...I can do it, but what will we have to stop doing more important, right?"
  — Mariano Gonciar [08:20]

• "Like a firewall (for) the team...he know(s) the vision and share(s) this vision."
  — Mariano Gonciar [11:56]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:35] — Introduction to the Micromanager PO anti-pattern
• [03:00] — Effects on the team, lack of creativity and ownership
• [04:00] — Coaching intervention and shifting focus to customer value
• [05:23] — Team transformation through collaborative refinement
• [06:34] — Positive example: The Visionary/Fascilitator PO
• [08:10] — Handling stakeholder demands and saying "no" constructively
• [10:00] — Importance of using and sharing the product roadmap
• [11:25] — Bringing team and stakeholders together, preventing churn

---

Takeaways

• Micromanagement by POs eliminates developer creativity and impedes team morale.
• Great POs clearly communicate vision, facilitate collaboration, prioritize effectively, and shield teams from unnecessary pressure.
• Consistently revisiting and sharing the product roadmap ensures aligned expectations and sustainable progress.
• Open, respectful communication and a growth mindset distinguish high-performing Product Owners.

---

For listeners interested in Agile team dynamics and the nuanced role of Product Owners, this episode offers practical, relatable stories and actionable advice.

Transcript

[Vasco]

Hey there Agile adventurer, just a quick question.

[Host]

What if for the price of a.

[Vasco]

Fancy coffee or half a pizza, you could unlock over 700 hours of the best agile content on the planet? That's audio, video, E courses, books, presentations, all that you can think of. But you can also join live calls with world class practitioners and hang out in a flame war free and AI slop clean slack with the sharpest minds in the game. Oh, and yes, you get direct access to me. Vasko, your Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. No, this is not a drill. It's this Scrum Master Toolbox membership. And it's your unfair advantage in the Agile world. So if you want to know more, go check out scrummastertoolbox.org membership. That's scrummastertoolbox.org Membership. And check out all the goodies we have for you. Do it now. But if you're not doing it now, let's listen to the podcast.

[Host]

Hello everybody. Welcome to our Friday TGIF and product owner episode this week with Mariano Gonciar. Hey Mariano, welcome back.

[Mariano Gonciar]

Hello everybody.

[Host]

So Friday's product owner episode. We'll talk about great product owners in a minute, but before that Mariana share with us potentially the worst product owner anti pattern you've witnessed in your career.

[Mariano Gonciar]

Great. Well, I remember a situation with a product owner who with good intention please. He had good intention but fit into an anti pattern that significantly affect the team. I call him the task manager po. This PO was very detail oriented and like to have everything under control. He believed his job was to give us in great details the instruction for every single tax officer, every user stories. In the backlog was a very long list of steps to follow with predefined technical solution. He was telling us who we should build the product instead of focusing on why we need that. The problem was the team feel they know nothing to contribute. They have no space for creativity or to propose better technical situation or solution. They become simple tasks. Everything is solution thinker instead of solution think. Sorry, the team model depend. Sorry again. They become simple task executor instead of solution thinker. Right? The daily Scrum felt like a simple process report. Well, the first step to talk with the poor In a one to one, one on one coaching session. I show him how his approach was affecting the team and explained with definition. I explained that his role was definition, not the what and the why. Okay? Not the whole. The key to use to that, the formula, the ASA type of user. I want to have functionality. So that's a proposal and if you need some else he can have acceptance criteria, right? Like a checklist. It was a very big work because together we wrote rewrote the backlog story to focus on the customer value, not technical steps. I need to be honest. It could be possible because the PO understand his error and try to solve this problem, right? No say I know I am the po. I am the boss. This PO is compromised to solve the error and what the developer start to ask. I propose create the. Sorry the refinement about to each again together we wrote the back Sorry. I create a problem in my mind. Sorry again I started again. Instead of PO arrive at the meeting with the story already finalized it we redefined them with the entire team, right? Developers could ask question, propose solution, estimate made the effort and even to just change the scope of the task. This transformation or meeting the team feels valued and the PO gets more robust solution, right?

[Host]

And didn't have to come up with all of the details that they probably wouldn't be able to in the first place and help the team kind of take ownership. Which is what we were talking about yesterday when we talked about success, right? Like the way that the team works with the product owner is needs to foster ownership in the team. It can't be the product owner saying everything because otherwise the team just steps back and does only what the PO says which of course the PO isn't actually doing the coding and testing. So they can't know all of the details even if they wanted to. But that's a anti pattern. There are also some great product owners out there, Mariano. So tell us the best part product owner you've ever worked with. How did they work?

[Mariano Gonciar]

Well, first, it's wonderful to work with people like that. It's wonderful to work to people like Dana de Patton but try to solution the problem. But the people who don't create problems, this type of pro. It's a ham. I'm sorry. Well, this story taking me back to my time at Telecom Group during the Agile transformation. I was working with a PO who had the task of moderating modernizing a build system. It was a complex project with many stakeholder and dependents. Let's call him the visionary and facilitator po. It's wonderful. Sorry, this is an expression in Argentina. I don't know in another country. But this is type that the people that working with a clear product vision. That is great. He didn't just talk about the future. He talked about why they were important for the customer and the business. He had a well defined roadmap that they regularly share with the team and the stakeholder. Not defining all the point on the roadmap say idea about that they need and they truly made him stay out was his ability to say no. I remember in a meeting our director want us to implement a very specific feature that they considered critical for her. The PO listened careful, but then respectfully told him it wasn't aligned with the product vision of that time. Instead of giving in, okay, we will do it. They say, okay, I can do it that but we. But what will we have to stop doing more important, right? They changed. The important thing is I can do it. But we have this roadmap. What do you need to don't do it. This is wonderful because many POs say some stakeholders tell me they need that move this reunion and say we need to do that in that sprint. More than the other things, they manage the things to happen within the stakeholder with the team. Don't translate the problems to the team. They stay focus. The team and the stakeholder too.

[Host]

So how did they do this? Like did they get the team and the stakeholders together? How did this P.O. help this?

[Mariano Gonciar]

Well, first don't give all the features in the team. Translate immediately the features to the team.

[Host]

What do you mean by translating? Do you mean like saying why the feature is important or putting into the context of something else? What do you mean by translating?

[Mariano Gonciar]

Well, first stopping the stakeholder because the other all the time needed new things. Then if you have a real roadmap that you understand what happened right now, what happened next or what do you want? Maybe your needed change, right? But not because a stakeholder needed something. You put this in the next sprint. You need to understand what happened with that. And if it's important because what happened there is things that are important the BO understand that okay, we can do that, but we can't do it another thing, because the people or the team has a limit not can do all that you want, right? Then they show your roadmap to the team and to the stakeholder and create a quiet space to the team and to the stakeholder. The stakeholder understand what happened and the team understand what is the next thing that happened. Not the next during three sprint, the next sprint, just done, right? Step by step.

[Host]

So what you're saying is bring the developers or the team and the stakeholders together and work from the roadmap, right? Like understand the request from the stakeholder but then put it into the context of the roadmap. Get feedback from the team so that the team understands what's coming next to them and not necessarily changing the roadmap all the time. Because if you're getting a lot of requests from stakeholders that could lead to this backlog churn, right? Like a lot of stuff changing all the time.

[Mariano Gonciar]

Yes. Like a firewall the team and stop the needed necessaries. It's wonderful because he know what they. He know the vision. They have a vision and they share this vision. Not, not, not. I don't know what to say in English, but comprendia. Yes, they needed that. The team and the stakeholder.

[Host]

All right, I hope you like the.

[Vasco]

Team and before you hit next episode, here's the deal.

[Host]

Very good, Very good. Mariano Power, thank you very much. We're getting close. Thank you for sharing all of these.

[Vasco]

Stories with us during this week. But before we go, real connection.

[Host]

Tell us where can people find out more about you and the work that.

[Vasco]

You'Re doing every day we're talking access to over 700.

[Mariano Gonciar]

I'm not used CTO language. I'm not used to social media. I'm not keynotes, live workshops, E courses, deep dive interviews.

[Vasco]

If you're into no estimates, we got pioneers of no estimates in those deep dive interviews as well. Companies, agile, business intelligence, creating product visions.

[Host]

Coaching your product owner courses, you name it.

[Mariano Gonciar]

It was an amazing experience. I so feel so comfortable with you talking. Maybe not plus a private Slack. Maybe in some next version of all.

[Host]

Of that AI slot. Thank you.

[Mariano Gonciar]

Thank you so much. Thank you for all your listeners. Thank you your time. It's a community of practitioners that want to learn and I hope you take care. It's the best something valuable from this so this podcast.

[Host]

Imagine many, many great stories during this week. Mariana, thank you very much for your generosity. Head on over to with your time.

[Vasco]

Scrumanyourknowledge.Org membership and join the community that's shaping the future of Agile. We have so much for you, so check out all the [e-mail] membership because listening is great, it's important. But doing it together, that's next level. I'll see you in the community. Slack.

[Host]

We really hope you liked our show. And if you did, why not rate this podcast on Stitcher or itunes. Share this podcast and let other Scrum masters know about this valuable resource for their work. Remember that sharing is caring.