Throwing Features Over the Fence, The Disconnected PO | Robert Finan

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches

Episode Summary: "Throwing Features Over the Fence, The Disconnected PO | Robert Finan"

In this insightful episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte engages in a deep conversation with Robert Finan, an experienced Agile Coach and Scrum Master. The discussion centers around the challenges and best practices associated with Product Owners (POs) in Scrum teams. Robert shares his experiences with common anti-patterns, the impact of disconnected POs, and highlights the characteristics of effective Product Owners that contribute to successful Agile teams.

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1. Identifying Product Owner Anti-Patterns

a. The Disconnected Product Owner

Robert Finan begins the conversation by addressing what he considers the most detrimental anti-pattern in Product Ownership:

Robert Finan [03:07]:
"They just throw features, they throw user stories, they throw demands, basically over the fence to the team and expect things to get running, to get going."

This scenario depicts a PO who is detached from the Scrum team, viewing them merely as a delivery mechanism. Such detachment leads to a lack of collaboration and mutual understanding, ultimately hampering the team's effectiveness.

b. Definition of Ready as an Anti-Pattern

Expanding on the challenges, Robert discusses the misuse of the "Definition of Ready":

Robert Finan [03:07]:
"One of the coaches I had at one point said to me, definition of ready is an anti pattern."

Originally intended to ensure that backlog items are prepared for development, an over-reliance on the Definition of Ready can mask deeper issues, such as a PO's lack of integration with the team.

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2. Causes Behind the Disconnected Product Owner

Robert delves into the underlying reasons why Product Owners may become disconnected from their teams:

Robert Finan [06:01]:
"They may be PO for more than one team. They probably juggling two or three other projects at the same time... sometimes you have pos that have no experience of being pos... they just need a fair bit of coaching and support..."

Factors include organizational structures that assign POs to multiple teams, lack of proper training, and roles imposed without genuine commitment from the PO. These issues create barriers to effective collaboration and shared responsibility within the team.

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3. Addressing and Improving Product Owner Involvement

Vasco Duarte emphasizes that recognizing these anti-patterns is the first step toward improvement:

Vasco Duarte [07:40]:
"When the definition of ready is there, that's not a problem. That's just an invitation to understand why is it there."

The conversation underscores the importance of Scrum Masters facilitating open dialogues to uncover the root causes of PO disconnection. By fostering curiosity and initiating crucial conversations, teams can identify whether organizational constraints or individual reluctance are at play and work collaboratively to bridge the gap.

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4. Exemplary Product Owner Practices

a. Case Study: Integrated Product Owner

Robert shares a compelling success story of a Product Owner who transformed their approach:

Robert Finan [08:42]:
"We managed to get the product owner to like literally leave his own building and spend four days a week with the team."

By embedding the PO within the team environment, attending daily activities, and actively participating in user story mapping sessions, the PO fostered a culture of collaboration and continuous feedback. This integration not only enhanced communication but also aligned the team's output more closely with stakeholder needs.

b. Key Ingredients for Effective Product Owners

Breaking down the elements that contribute to a successful PO, Robert highlights:

• Presence and Availability: Being actively involved with the team beyond formal meetings.
• Utilization of User Story Mapping: Facilitating a clear, visual representation of product features and their evolution.
• Establishing Strong Feedback Loops: Ensuring that feedback from stakeholders and end-users is continuously integrated into the development process.
• Willingness to Prioritize and Refine: Making informed decisions about feature implementations and being open to reprioritization based on feedback.

Robert Finan [10:48]:
"He was prepared to say, we're not implementing that, we're not implementing that. They haven't asked for it. We'll wait and see what happens."

These practices ensure that the team remains focused on delivering value and can adapt swiftly to changing requirements or insights.

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5. Conclusion and Resources

The episode wraps up with Vasco acknowledging the depth of the conversation and encouraging listeners to explore further discussions on related topics.

Robert Finan provides listeners with avenues to connect and learn more about his work:

Robert Finan [13:11]:
"You can find me on LinkedIn... I've done a few talks at the Agile Tour Vienna... check out agiledrillsergeant.com."

Vasco concludes by urging listeners to rate and share the podcast to support the Scrum Master community.

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Key Takeaways

• Avoid Disconnected Product Owners: Ensure POs are integrated within the Scrum team to foster collaboration and mutual understanding.
• Use Definitions Thoughtfully: Tools like Definition of Ready should support, not mask, underlying team dynamics and challenges.
• Foster Open Communication: Scrum Masters should facilitate conversations to identify and address barriers to effective Product Ownership.
• Emulate Successful Practices: Learn from exemplary POs who actively participate in team activities, prioritize effectively, and maintain robust feedback loops.

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For more insights and actionable advice on improving your Scrum Master skills, tune into the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast and join the conversation with Agile practitioners worldwide.

Transcript

[Vasco Duarte]

Hey, how are you doing? I'm Vasco Duarte, your host on the Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. And I've got some exciting news. So right now, as I record this, I'm holding in my hand the signed contract for our very first Global Agile Summit. We're all in and I couldn't wait to share this news with you. So mark your calendars. May 18th, 20th of 2025 in Tallinn, Estonia. We're gonna have a transformative experience. We're putting together an event that is all about real life agile. It's not theory or buzzwords. It's practitioners sharing what's working, what's making an impact, and how they've overcome challenges that you too will have to face, or maybe even facing. Right now we're bringing together the best stories in Agile. From product leaders to engineering wizards to business visionaries, these will be stories that will inspire you to action. This isn't just another conference. It's a chance to connect with the people that are shaping the future of Agile. And here's the best part. Right now, we're in our super early bird phase. And that means you can grab tickets at just 25% of the final price. Look, that's not just half off, it's half off of the half off. It's an incredible deal for our dedicated community members, just like you listening to this right now. So at the summit, day one will be all about hands on workshops. And days two and three, we'll dive into leadership, product strategy, coding, testing, and everything that makes Agile thrive in organizations. Right now remember, these are all first person, real life stories. Now whether you're a leader, a developer, or part of a consulting company, this event is built to take your Agile game to the next level. So don't wait. Go to globalagilesummit.com and grab your ticket. Today, let's all make 2025 the year agile truly transforms your teams, your business and our industry. I'll see you all in Tallinn. And Remember, go to globalagilesummit.com and get your super early bird ticket right now. It only be available until the agenda is announced, so don't wait. Grab it right now. Right now that that's out of the way, onto the episode. Hello everybody. Welcome to our product owner TGIF episode this week with Robert Finnan. Hey Robert, welcome back.

[Robert Finnan]

Hey Pasco.

[Vasco Duarte]

So, product owners, I know there are great product owners and we'll talk about one in a second or more, let's see. But first let's dive into Robert, what you think Might be possibly the worst product owner anti pattern you've witnessed in your career.

[Robert Finnan]

We can have discussions whether this is truly a scrum team, but basically where the product owner is not part of the team, the product owner sees the team as a sort of delivery team and they just throw features, they throw user stories, they throw demands, basically over the fence to the team and expect things to get running, to get going. You'll notice when this is happening. So one of the coaches I had at one point said to me, definition of ready is an anti pattern. And I was a little bit, what do you mean? Definition of ready is an anti pattern. I thought it was a good thing. The thinking was if you really have a product owner who's part of the team, they know what the team needs to be able to get the work done. You shouldn't have to list it. Now you get this definition of ready where the product owner maybe they're, you know, they generally, very often they belong to the business analyst group. They may even belong to the business side. They're not, they're not necessarily part of the it or if they are part of the it, they might be part of the, you know, the program managers. So they're, they don't always be part of the team. The old thinking is still there. Now they have the title product owner. They are responsible for the backlog and the refinement and stuff like that. But you see this tension. They don't, you know, the team is there to sort of deliver what they want. They don't feel part of the team. They don't feel like it's us together getting something done. And that for me, when, you know, definition of ready is to a certain extent a smell. Now, definition of ready is good at the start when teams are starting up. But a mature team that's been running for a while, I don't think it should need it.

[Vasco Duarte]

Let me explore that a little bit because I think that's a very important point. So you talked about the anti pattern when the PO is sees themselves outside the team, right? Like they're giving the team orders, basically. And then you have the definition of ready, which tries to, I think in a very effective way, bridge that gap, bridge that distance between the PO and the team. And sometimes there will be also a PO proxy trying to do the same. Right. So you called it an anti pattern. I don't disagree with that necessarily. I would call it a workaround or a smell, like you also did, because it points to something that is missing, right? Like the definition of done. Is a key part of Scrum, but it also points to something that is missing. You know, whether there is a shared agreement on what qualities or whether there is clarity on what needs to be done before a release, whatever that is. Right. The definition of done is also there because of it. And I don't see any problem with it. I don't see any problem with the definition of ready. But I do agree with you that it points to a gap, to a distance that we should look into. Is this a distance that is strictly necessary because of the way the organization is and we need to work around that, or is this because the PO really doesn't want to be involved and they're kind of making an effort but not really wholeheartedly? Like those are completely different situations.

[Robert Finnan]

Right, Exactly. So you've got the case where the PO probably has been made a po, maybe against their own wishes. They may be PO for more than one team. They probably juggling two or three other project at the same time. And this is just the way the organization works. Sometimes you have, quite often you also have pos that have no experience of being pos or your two day CSPO course is not going to be enough to do this. Where they just need, they need a fair bit of coaching and support and to understand how, you know, why it's a benefit for them. It will actually benefit them to become more integrated with the team and to spend more time with the team and to learn how the team really thinks. So they can get the best out of that. But they need to. It's this sort of idea of shared responsibility that it doesn't, it's not just throw it over the fence, wait till it's done, go to the review. That's literally mini waterfall, you know, that's literally the definition of anyone. I do my requirements, I disappear for two weeks, I reappear and do the review. It's terrible. And you can, you know, working with these people, some people are great and they're really prepared to work in it and they want to do it. Right. And then others we kind of got, you know, we did a reorg and you've just got, you were a project manager, now you're a product owner. Okay. And yeah, but then we're back to the change and how the change happened and they're not. So it's not completely their fault either. Right. So again we're back to crucial conversations, to talking to people. Let's find out what's going on here. What could work? Like, is there something we could do Maybe we could arrange a meeting every day. Maybe it's not the daily, but maybe we have certain touch points during the week and stuff like that, where we get better feedback and stuff like that. There's a lot that can be done.

[Vasco Duarte]

To improve the situation and I think that that's the hopeful part, right? Like recognizing the anti pattern isn't the end of the story, it's the beginning of the story. Right. When the definition of ready is there, that's not a problem. That's just an invitation to understand why is it there. Right. And I think that we as Scrum masters, we really need to have that perspective. All the anti patterns out there are just invitations for us to think, why is this happening?

[Robert Finnan]

Yeah, start up a discussion. Everything's like reason to have a discussion. Let's find out more. Be curious what's up.

[Vasco Duarte]

Be curious indeed. Well said. Well said. And of course we do this because we want to become. We help become. Help product owners. Pardon me? Become great product owners. But you know, let's be honest, there are some great product owners already out there and I'm sure you know some. So, Robert, share with us potentially the best product owner you've ever worked with. How did they work?

[Robert Finnan]

Well, actually this goes back to that team I mentioned where we managed to get the product owner to like literally leave his own building and spend four days a week with the team. Okay. And what we did there and what went really well was I'm a really big fan, so joining a team, I very often spend at the start a lot of time with the product owner, because if we're not building the right thing, it doesn't matter how good the team is. If we build the wrong thing, it's pointless. What's our effectiveness? I feel like it's very important to get that direction, to get that plan with the product owner. What's going to be and how do we get feedback of what we're producing, who are the stakeholders, what needs to be done? I like to work a lot with the product owner at the start. One of the things that I found really, really useful and if they use it well, it's great. I'm a big fan of user story mapping. Feature mapping as the idea of layering functionality over time and being able to stop at a certain point in time and have everything still working end to end. And so one of the best ones I had, this is exactly the approach we took. And he really worked there, he was present, he was there for those four days every week and he was really able to we worked on all those stories that were part of the user story map and stuff like that. And we did the whole thing physically at the time and in jira. So we had the documentation. Jira, but we really worked a lot with the physical board at the time and just the team. He was there for the team and the contact and communication was there all the time. And really during the week, it wasn't just like, you know, appearing at dailies and stuff like that. He was available, and that made a big difference. This team, they made it into the company magazine and, you know, like several pages about how well the team had performed at the end, in the middle of the company magazine. And I think a lot of it was down to his willingness to be a part of the team and not to see himself as a separate part of the project management, because they were in different organizations and different buildings. And so this is sometimes that kind of hurdle, that kind of bridge or that gap you need to cross that everybody comes together and says, no, we're a team together.

[Vasco Duarte]

What do you think led this product owner to first accept and then actually take action on slowly becoming part of the team?

[Robert Finnan]

I'll be honest, he was young and enthusiastic and less, I think, for that reason, more open, honestly, more open to thinking about things in a different way and more open to this. So I think there were definitely other product owners in the company who got them. They would have stayed in the other building. They would have said, no, this is how we work. And other teams were working that way. And so when they said, how could we replicate your success? I said, I'm not so sure, because we had this kind of dedication from the product owner that we weren't seeing from a lot of other people. And I think he understood. He saw the benefits. This project, as you said, what's the Good Line? Was a successful project. We were running a pilot, basically, with people using it. We were getting feedback in the review meetings from the stakeholders about how many contracts had been completed with the software. And that's a wonderful feedback loop to have that. I've rarely seen that. It's really. It's in the field. The stuff is coming back. We see what we're doing is working. And he was great as well. He was prepared to say, we're not implementing that, we're not implementing that. They haven't asked for it. We'll wait and see what happens. Not sure if there's a secret ingredient anywhere in there, but I think he saw the benefit of what was happening.

[Vasco Duarte]

I don't think it is secret, but I'm sure there are ingredients there like being present with the team four days a week wanting to try out technologies like story mapping, helping to build the feedback loop from the market straight into the team saying no to many things. All of those are in my mind success ingredients for great pos. So definitely a lot of great insights there. Robert we're getting close to the end though Robert, and I am so sorry. This conversation could last a long time and for those of you who haven't yet heard of it, that episode about estimation, I think it could turn into a whole one hour conversation or more. But let's not go there because we're already close to the end. Robert Share with us where can people find out more about you and the work that you're doing?

[Robert Finnan]

Oh there's in LinkedIn, you'll find so I've done a few talks at the Agile Tour Vienna which have been recorded. I host the Agile Tour Vienna with my friends at TechTalk and I've done a couple of talks there, including the one where I pretend to be a management guru selling anti patterns or Agile anti patterns. Two managers as very cool patterns and I'm the agile drill sergeant.com, one word is just like my experience as a Scrum Master natural coach. Basically in picture form or in cartoon form. A way of letting off steam. That's where you can see.

[Vasco Duarte]

Absolutely. I'll put the link to all of those in the show notes Robert, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.

[Robert Finnan]

Thank you Vasco for the chance to be interviewed and your very insightful questions.

[Vasco Duarte]

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