Timing Is Everything - Learning When Agile Teams Are Ready for Change | Irene Castagnotto

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast
Episode: Timing Is Everything - Learning When Agile Teams Are Ready for Change | Irene Castagnotto
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Irene Castagnotto
Date: August 20, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the complexities of leading organizational change within Agile teams, particularly in the context of management buy-in and timing. Guest Irene Castagnotto, an experienced Scrum Master and Agile Coach, shares a candid story about introducing change in a large organization—offering nuanced advice and practical techniques relevant to anyone facilitating transformation efforts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Challenge of Management-Level Change

• Change Is Routine—But Not Easy:
  Irene emphasizes that Scrum Masters constantly deal with change, but initiatives involving management are particularly challenging.

  • “The changes that I felt the most hard to deal with are the management one.” (02:03, Irene)

• Understanding the Perspective of Management:
  Managers see their company as their “child,” making them highly invested and often cautious about change proposals.

  • “You are dealing with people that really take really care about their company. … It’s like their child.” (06:35, Irene)

2. Story: Proposing a Unified Backlog

• Origin of the Problem:
  Teams struggled with cross-team dependencies, caused by poor coordination and lack of a shared backlog.

• Attempted Solution:
  Agile coaches and Scrum Masters proposed a unified backlog to address the visibility and management of dependencies.

• Initial Response:
  Management rejected the proposal, seemingly disregarding its logical merits.

  • “It was logical... but we understand in that moment that they were not accepting this kind of proposal.” (04:22, Irene)

• Reflections on the Failure:
  Irene realized they neglected the emotional dimension and outcome communication—focusing only on the rational argument.

  • “We didn’t say from an emotional point of view what it was going to change.” (05:25, Irene)

3. Timing, Readiness, and Emotional Buy-In

• The Right Time for Change:
  True organizational change only succeeds when both the initiator and the stakeholders are ready.

  • “You have to be ready, but also the other people have to be ready.” (06:14, Irene)

• The Funny Twist:
  A month later, management independently proposed the same unified backlog—demonstrating how readiness and ownership are key.

  • “A month later they came to us and say, ‘Oh, I have an idea: unique backlog.’ We were like, what? … But we explained this idea to you one month ago!” (06:02, Irene)

4. Techniques for Facilitating Change

• Socializing Changes Instead of Formal Announcements:
  Vasco and Irene agree that discussing ideas informally and gathering feedback increases chances of acceptance.

  • “You don't go and present a change. You socialize the change. … You assess when is the right time to bring up a change.” (08:09, Vasco)
  • “Lots of time you have to guide a change and not proposing them.” (09:52, Irene)

• Awareness of Context and Timing:
  External factors—like time of day or personal readiness—can influence decisions.
  Vasco gives the example of judicial decisions just before lunch, highlighting the importance of timing.

  • “Did you present the change to management just before lunch?” (07:22, Vasco)
  • “There are studies... that show that the parole cases that are looked at just before lunch, they are all denied... So when we present things is also important.” (07:36, Vasco)

• Coaching Approach:
  The conversation distinguishes between pushing and guiding—coaching is about being sensitive to the readiness of others.

  • “It's also about being a coach. … Understanding when it's the right time, using the right words, and understand if the person that you have in front of you is ready.” (09:53, Irene)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “When someone asks you to change, you have to understand why are you changing, how you should change, and why you should trust the people that's asking you to change.” (02:12, Irene)
• “One of the best things you can do is let things go away. So we just stopped for a moment and paused the discussion.” (05:48, Irene)
• “Change only happens when the people involved are ready.” (08:33, Vasco)
• “Sometimes you just have to guide it, not propose it.” (10:21, Vasco)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:23 — Vasco introduces the episode’s focus: managing and leading change
• 01:59–06:14 — Irene’s story of trying (and failing) to introduce a unified backlog, and the lessons learned about readiness and communication
• 07:22–08:09 — Discussion on timing, with anecdotes about decision fatigue and readiness in management decision-making
• 08:09–10:27 — Practical tips: Socializing change, coaching over proposing, and understanding emotional context
• 09:52-10:21 — Irene and Vasco summarize the essence: “Guide, don’t propose” when facilitating change

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Episode Takeaways

• Logical and rational arguments are insufficient; emotional impact and timing matter deeply in initiatives that involve organizational change.
• Management often needs time—and sometimes “ownership”—of an idea before accepting and implementing it.
• The art of successful change is to socialize, coach, and sense readiness, rather than to formally pitch or push.
• Scrum Masters must learn to “let go,” allowing change to surface naturally once the environment is primed.

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This practical episode provides real-life examples and actionable insights for Agile practitioners seeking to improve their influence, timing, and effectiveness as change agents within their organizations.

Transcript

[A]

Hey there, agile adventurer, just a quick question.

[B]

What if, for the price of a.

[A]

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[B]

Hello everybody. Welcome to our Wednesday the Leading Change episode, as I like to call it this week with Irene Castagnotto. Irene, welcome back.

[C]

Hello.

[B]

So change is the topic of today and because of this, we want to hear a story. Not, you know, because we might be in the same story, that's a possibility, but because we want to understand how you look at change in practice right when it becomes this day to day work that we need to do. And we all need to do that work. So Irene, tell us the story of a change process that you were involved with and walk us through the steps, the steps of that change process. And as you go, highlight for us the tools, the tips, the tricks and the techniques you learned back then that you still apply today.

[C]

So as change processes, I think that every Scrum Master has to deal with them basically on a daily basis. But the changes that I felt the most hard deal with are the management one. And that's of course what I want also to start from the management point of view. So if you think about your manager and you have a company, you want that company to be the most beautiful, the most amazing, the most powerful, the most good in a market way of view of the old world. So you'd really take care of that. And when someone asks you to change, you have to understand why are you changing, how you should change, and why you should trust the people that's asking you to change. So that's something that I want you to focus on. So the story started when we have the moment of a lot of dependencies between teams and that leads to understand the root Cause, which I don't know if we took it the right root cause, but at the moment we understood that the problem was that the team were not working together in the good way. So we were not organizing the ethics in a way that were not dependent from each other. And that's why, because sometimes you can avoid dependencies, you can make people working in a way that dependency does not exist, but sometimes you have to take care of them, sometimes they are just dependencies because maybe one team doesn't have all the information that needs to build something. So at that moment we wanted to propose a way of working. It was very simple actually, but a backlog. In that moment it was unique because at that moment we didn't have one. And we tried to go to the management and said, okay, this is the solution we are proposing as a Scrum Master. But it was not accepted at the moment and we were not understanding why, because it was logical. If you have a unique backlog, you can understand the dependencies and you can manage them in a way better. But we understand in that moment that they were not accepting this kind of proposal. Probably because we didn't explain it correctly, probably because we didn't say why and what was the outcome. And at the same time we didn't get the emotional part of it. So coming back from the book, we had the environment, we had the rational part, so we explained what's the logical above this proposal, the environment. So, okay, we have team constructed in this way. The company has Scrum Master that works along across this topic, the pos that work along across this topic. But we didn't say from an emotional point of view what it was going to change. Basically I think that what they were facing is a big issues understanding, like what's going to change in my daily life and in the daily life of everyone if we apply this tool, which is very common. But at the moment we didn't have it. So it was a failure and we didn't understand how to deal with in that moment. So sometimes one of the best things you can do is let things go away. So we just stopped for a moment and post the discussion. A month later they came to us and say, oh, I have an idea unique backlog. We were like, what? We are very happy that you have this idea, but we explained this idea to you one month ago. So it was very funny in the end. But one thing that you have to understand when you work with changes is that you have to be ready, but also the other people have to be ready. And we Came across all the same argument or the same topic and not ready from also a lot not ready for only from a logical part of you, but also emotional. Because when you are dealing with management, you are dealing with people that really take really care about their company. Not that adept or a few industrial master don't care about the company, but it's like their child. So maybe it was the wrong day and it could happen, but maybe also you have to understand how to explain every change in a way that is complete from all the three parts. And that's why it's very hard to take sometimes.

[B]

So there's another tip. I say this a little bit tongue in cheek, but there's actually some data on this. Did you present the change to the management just before lunch?

[C]

I don't remember.

[B]

Because we know and there's some studies around that that judges refuse to give parole or temporary. When you, when you allow somebody to be out of prison before their jail time is over, but you know on a condition that they don't commit any crimes, right. Like this parole process. And there are studies looking at this data that show that the parole cases that are looked at just before lunch, they are all denied Otherwise they are 65% approved. So when we present things is also an important. So you said about the. When being related to the management being ready and that's definitely true. So a big tip here is that you don't go and present a change. You socialize the change, right? Like you talk with one, you get feedback, you talk to the other, you get some more feedback and you assess when is the right time to bring up a change, quote unquote, a change effort. Right. But, but it is really important because people, when are people not ready? Maybe they have other priorities that we don't know about. Maybe they are worried about the consequences and need time to think about them, which is the topic that you brought up. Maybe they don't know if they can talk to their own people about the change, right. Especially management. That's going to be very important. Maybe they want to hear somebody else in their teams propose the change other than the scrum masters, for example. There could be many reasons. If we socialize the idea of the change, we get that feedback before we get the quote unquote, no. Right. But if we don't socialize, we get faced with the unknown. Are they going to say yes or no? Right. So I think that there's two aspects to this. One is we have to accept that change only happens when the people involved are ready, which is what you mentioned, but also that we can help figure out when they are ready by just talking about the topics without the formality of a big change process that they then need to somehow approve. Right?

[C]

Yeah. It's also about being a coach. So that's the point. Understanding when it's the right time, using the right words, and understand if the people, if the person that you have in front of you is ready. So there's a lot of factors that you have to think about when proposing a change, and lots of time you have to guide a change and not proposing them. That's always the point.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Sometimes you just have to guide it, not propose it. Awesome. Thank you for sharing that story, Irene.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

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[A]

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