Podcast Summary: Trust Over Escalation — A Patient Approach to Difficult PO Relationships

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Juliana Stepanova
Date: February 4, 2026
Episode Theme: Navigating challenging relationships between Scrum Masters and Product Owners (POs) and strategies to build trust and collaboration rather than escalating issues.

Episode Overview

This episode dives into one of the most delicate dynamics in Scrum teams: handling product owners (POs) who are disengaged, unprepared, or resistant to coaching—particularly when organizational structures make it difficult to align priorities. Juliana Stepanova joins Vasco Duarte for “Coaching and Biggest Challenge Wednesday,” bringing a real-life situation where a newly promoted PO’s behaviors are undermining effective Scrum processes. Together, they strategize actionable ways to support the PO, encourage team collaboration, and thoughtfully avoid escalation, emphasizing trust and patience in building healthier team relationships.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Context & Challenge: A PO Resisting Coaching

• Juliana’s scenario:
  • Her team’s PO does not want to be coached or accept help from the Scrum Master.
  • The PO's behavior is negatively impacting Scrum rituals and overall team efficiency.
  • Organizational structure complicates matters; the line managers for the Scrum Master and PO are in entirely different departments, lacking alignment and shared direction.
  • Quote ([03:41]):

    “We have really like different line managers who are going up to the different departments who are not connected...we have not aligned direction at this moment.”
    — Juliana

2. Manifestation of the Challenge

• The PO is focused solely on product delivery, often neglecting preparedness for essential Scrum rituals such as refinement.
• Refinement meetings are inefficient, with user stories being written live, leading to very long sessions and wasted team time.
• The PO does not see the value in these rituals and assumes their work is most important, expecting the team to wait for their direction.
• Quote ([06:56]):

  “He thinks that he's most important person and everybody else can wait. He's really overwhelmed...no time to prepare to refinement, but from other side to do it together with the team—it's not respecting the team.”
  — Juliana

3. Attempted Approaches So Far

• Juliana considered (but had not yet successfully tried) facilitating a team conversation with the PO about how the team could support their responsibilities.
• The team appears willing to help, but the PO resists accepting support, preferring to maintain control and independence.
• The PO's pride in their new role and lack of prior PO experience exacerbate the issue.
• Quote ([09:07]):

  “This conversation is not accepted via PO because he is really proud of his role and... holding all his tasks.”
  — Juliana

4. Escalation vs. Collaboration Decision Point ([10:34–13:35])

• Vasco pushes on whether the team should respond by escalating up the chain of command, staging a standoff (“we can’t work”), or continue covering for the PO’s operational gaps.
• Juliana clarifies that while work continues, inefficient refinement means productivity is suffering and the team can’t be as effective.
• The team still believes the problem can be resolved internally through improved communication and supporting the PO.
• Vasco introduces the idea of experimenting with internal solutions, such as a temporary PO proxy or deeper team involvement in PO activities.

5. Focusing on Building Trust, Not Escalating ([14:40])

• Juliana is clear that escalation should be the absolute last resort, as it risks harming both the team-PO relationship and organizational trust.
• Escalation could lead to losing the current PO, getting someone new with uncertain capabilities, or a permanent trust fracture.
• Building trust and fostering open communication within the team is seen as the sustainable, winning approach.
• Quote ([14:40]):

  “Escalation on the upper level...could be done but it's not a good idea because in the worst way we will lose PO and we don't know when we get another one. And in the best way, we have a PO who really knows that we were escalating the problem outside the team. So the trust will be built then for years.”
  — Juliana

• Quote ([14:40]):

  “My suggestion is to really try out in a supportive way—build trust, encourage communication, and come to the solution as a team all together. This is like really win-win situation.”
  — Juliana

Memorable Quotes with Timestamps

• “We have really like different line managers...who are not connected. So...not aligned direction at this moment.” — Juliana ([03:41])
• “He thinks that he's the most important person and everybody else can wait...no time to prepare to refinement...it's not respecting the team...” — Juliana ([06:56])
• “This conversation is not accepted via PO because he is really proud of his role and...holding all his tasks.” — Juliana ([09:07])
• “Do we go into a standoff...? Or do we try to cover for the lack of attention and time on the product owner?” — Vasco ([10:34])
• “Escalation...could be done but it’s not a good idea...the trust will be built then for years. My suggestion is to really try out in supportive way to build in trust...This is really win-win.” — Juliana ([14:40])

Key Takeaways

• Patience over escalation: For difficult PO relationships, especially where trust is fragile, it is wiser to approach with patience, compassion, and repeated attempts at collaboration before considering escalation.
• Understanding context: Organizational misalignment and a newly promoted, inexperienced PO complicate the ability to simply “fix” process gaps.
• Team support: While escalation can be tempting when a PO blocks productivity, teams should first exhaust all options internally—clarifying roles, offering support, and creatively sharing PO workload where possible.
• Trust as foundation: Escalating to management risks damaging trust for years; lasting change comes from strengthening ties within the team and supporting everyone’s growth.
• Experimentation mindset: Instead of “solving” the problem outright, try out safe-to-fail experiments, such as having another team member temporarily shadow or help the PO, or incrementally increasing team involvement in PO tasks.

Important Topic Timestamps

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:23 | Introduction of the “coaching and biggest challenge” format | | 02:05 | Juliana presents the PO challenge and context | | 03:41 | Discussion about organizational misalignment and its impacts | | 05:14 | Manifestations of PO disengagement during refinement | | 06:56 | Analysis of PO’s attitude and the toll on team time | | 09:07 | Insights into PO’s inexperience and refusal to accept help | | 10:34 | Standoff vs. collaboration decision | | 13:35 | Experimenting with solutions and importance of collaborative stance | | 14:40 | Why escalation should be the last resort; trust-building as central to resolution |

Overall Tone

The conversation is candid, supportive, and realistic, reflecting the complexity and emotional nuance of coaching in tough team dynamics. Juliana advocates a respectful, empathetic, and patient approach, resisting the shortcut of escalation in favor of investing in long-term trust and collaboration. Vasco guides the conversation with curiosity and pragmatic advice, helping listeners see multiple perspectives and practical options for experimentation.

This episode is a must-listen for Scrum Masters, Agile Coaches, and team leaders facing difficult PO relationships, offering both empathy and tactical wisdom for building lasting trust and sustainable improvements, even in challenging organizational environments.