When Enthusiasm Became Interference—Learning to Listen as a Scrum Master | Darryl Wright

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches

Episode: When Enthusiasm Became Interference—Learning to Listen as a Scrum Master | Darryl Wright
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Darryl Wright, Agile Coach and Instructor
Date: October 27, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the pivotal shift from enthusiastic interference to empowering leadership as a Scrum Master. Darryl Wright, an experienced Agile Coach from Melbourne, shares an honest and insightful story about how his initial fervor as a Scrum Master led him to dominate conversations and offer solutions too quickly—only to learn how much more empowering it is to create space for others. Throughout the conversation, Darryl and Vasco explore practical approaches to fostering shared leadership, the importance of active listening, and the power of stepping back to allow growth within Agile teams.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Darryl's Journey into Agile and Scrum Mastery

[02:02]

• Transitioned from traditional business management into Agile after recognizing his natural inclination for collaboration and relationship-based work.
• First exposure to Agile at Telstra, where he encountered a thriving, highly productive, and fun team atmosphere.
• Realized, “the way I liked to work actually had a name,” which fueled his passion for Agile principles.

Quote

“I never knew that the way I worked or the way I wanted to work had a name. Turns out it has a name. That’s amazing. And so, yeah, from that moment on, I knew that was the way for me for the future.”
— Darryl Wright [03:33]

---

The Failure Moment—When Enthusiasm Becomes Interference

[04:37]

• Early in his Scrum Master journey, Darryl admits to being overly eager and "a bit evangelical" about Agile, often jumping in with solutions and dominating discussions.
• This behavior inadvertently prevented others from contributing and taking ownership of problems.

Quote

“I was very keen and a bit evangelical about it. And I felt like I had all the answers that people were seeking… I was always offering solutions and ideas and suggestions.”
— Darryl Wright [04:45]

• A colleague noticed this pattern and introduced Darryl to the acronym W.A.I.T.: Why Am I Talking.

The “W.A.I.T.” Tool

[05:49]

• Before jumping in, Darryl learned to pause and ask: "Why am I talking?"
• This practice uncovered his tendency to dominate and shifted his approach toward active listening and space-holding.

Quote

“It was just such a generous gift… I really took to noticing how often I had that tendency to jump in. And so I started using WAIT all the time… It’s been amazing to develop so much better skills in active listening.”
— Darryl Wright [06:23]

---

Navigating When (and How) to Intervene

[06:57]

• Vasco raises a common Scrum Master dilemma: what if you see the team about to make a mistake?
• Darryl’s approach: Apply a risk lens—ask, "Is this small enough to try, safe enough to fail?"
• Emphasizes letting teams own their learning journeys; only intervene when critical.
• Illustrates parallel to parenting: learning from one’s own mistakes is far more powerful.

Quote

“Is this something that’s small enough to try, safe enough to fail? If it is, do I let them make a decision or go down a direction… and let them discover for themselves?”
— Darryl Wright [07:36]

Quote

“They don’t learn from my mistakes. They only learn from their own mistakes.”
— Darryl Wright [07:54]

• Noted that often, when giving people more time, someone in the group will arrive at the right idea or solution, creating an “empowering moment.”

---

Empowering Teams and Fostering Shared Leadership

[09:16]

• Vasco expands: Scrum Masters must enable others to step into shared leadership, resisting the urge to fill the silence or always provide answers.
• Prematurely jumping in teaches teams it’s “okay to be silent even when they have something to say”.
• The true role of the Scrum Master is to “create the potential for shared leadership.”

Quote

“Our job is to create the potential for shared leadership where everybody can come in at any point and bring their thoughts and their perspective and enter.”
— Vasco Duarte [09:23]

• Darryl now sees himself as a “backup,” stepping in only if no one else surfaces the necessary insight.

Quote

“My role… is to try and create that space and hold that space for someone to step up and have that leadership moment or that idea or whatever… But first I’m going to hold the space to see if someone else can do it.”
— Darryl Wright [10:10]

---

Techniques for "Holding the Space"

[10:29]

• Vasco references prior episodes (with David Marquet) on techniques for “holding the space”—creating conditions for others to lead without abdicating responsibility as a facilitator.
• Even when intervention is necessary, it should be done in a way that maintains shared ownership and encourages leadership from the team.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “WAIT—Why Am I Talking? Is it because you want to prove yourself, or is it because you think you know better… or is this the right moment just to listen?” — Darryl Wright [05:53]
• “I can’t stop [my kids] from making mistakes, and they don’t learn from my mistakes… they only learn from their own mistakes.” — Darryl Wright [07:54]
• “When I enter the conversation before I give option to the others… I’m actually teaching them it’s okay to be silent even when they have something to say.” — Vasco Duarte [09:30]
• “Now… I’m kind of more as a backup. If no one else can see this or come up with this idea, then I’m here…” — Darryl Wright [10:10]

---

Key Takeaways

• Step Back to Empower: Scrum Masters add the most value when they step back and allow others to contribute, fostering leadership in the team.
• Practice Active Listening: Use tools like W.A.I.T. to ensure you aren’t dominating discussions unnecessarily.
• Support Safe Experimentation: Let teams try and (safely) fail; real learning happens through ownership.
• Hold the Space: Both stepping back and knowing how to step in without usurping the team’s agency are vital skills for Scrum Masters.

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|--------------------| | 02:02 | Darryl's background and discovery of Agile | | 04:37 | Early failure: Enthusiasm as interference | | 05:49 | The W.A.I.T. tool and its impact | | 06:57 | When to intervene vs. hold back | | 09:16 | Enabling shared leadership | | 10:29 | Techniques for “holding the space” | | 11:10 | Appreciating contributions from thought leaders |

---

Final Thoughts

This episode is an essential listen for Scrum Masters and Agile coaches seeking to deepen their leadership by listening, real empowerment, and team development. Darryl’s candor about his learning journey, combined with practical advice and memorable frameworks, offers valuable lessons for every stage of the Agile path.

Transcript

[A]

Hey there, agile adventurer, just a quick question. What if, for the price of a fancy coffee or half a pizza, you could unlock over 700 hours of the best agile content on the planet? That's audio, video, E courses, books, presentations, all that you can think of. But you can also join live calls with world class practitioners and hang out in a flame war free and AI slop clean slack with the sharpest minds in the game. Oh, and yes, you get direct access to me, Vasko, your Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. No, this is not a drill. It's this Scrum Master Toolbox membership and it's your unfair advantage in the agile world. So if you want to know more, go check out scrummastertoolbox.org membership. That's scrummastertoolbox.org Membership. And check out all the goodies we have for you. Do it now. But if you're not doing it now, let's listen to the podcast.

[B]

Hello, everybody. Welcome to one more week of the Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. And this week, joining us from beautiful Melbourne in Australia is Darrel Wright. Hey, Darrel, welcome to the show.

[C]

Hi, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

[B]

Yeah. And it's lovely to start the day with an Australian accent. I appreciate you bringing the Australian accent to the show, Darrell. Thank you. So Darrel's an agile coach and an instructor dedicated to helping organizations and leaders be both successful and humane. He has over two decades in IT delivery and business leadership and he champions agile ways of working to create thriving workplaces where people are happy, productive and deliver products that customers truly love. So, Daryl, that was a short intro. Tell us a little bit more about yourself and how did you end up becoming a Scrum Master?

[C]

Yeah, thanks so much, Vasco. So I have quite a background in commercial. I used to run businesses and things like that. And I found that the way I like to work was a bit different to how a lot of other people like to work. I had a business where I had a partner who he wanted to crack the whip and make people work hard and they had to wear suits even if they were crawling around under server racks and stuff. And my way was very different. I used to take the guys down to the shops at lunchtime and we'd buy inflatable furniture and dinosaurs that stick to the roof and stuff like that. And I'd say, nah, come in, get stuffed on coding T shirts and have a suit in the cupboard if you need it, that sort of thing. So I used to work very differently and I didn't understand really, that there was a name for the way I like to work, but it was always very collaborative. Collaborative. And, you know, I like to be very close to my customer and it was all relationship based. And then one day I was doing a gig at Telstra and I got handed a project and they said, you're going to manage this project. Oh, by the way, it's running agile. And I said, I don't know what that means. Is that like gymnastics or something? Anyway, and I went in and they had this team that was already set up and running really well. They had fantastic people and this incredible vibe and they were amazingly productive, but they were having fun at the same time. And I'm like, this is amazing. Like, this is the way I want to work. I never knew that the way I worked or the way I wanted to work had a name. Turns out it has a name. That's amazing. And so, yeah, from that moment on, I knew that was the way for me for the future.

[B]

It sounds familiar. I remember struggling with all of the rules and steps that we needed to go through, which, by the way, I emerging now again in the AI age of programming. We can talk more about that later. But that perspective kind of like, oh, there's a way, or there's a name for the way I like to work. That's a very interesting perspective. And I wonder, as we dive into the failure question, because that's the key question for Mondays, right? As we dive into the failure question, I wonder if that is also part of the story. So tell us the story of a difficult moment you had as a Scrum master, Darrel, and walk us through the context so that we know where we are. And then what was the thing that you did that kind of derailed things?

[C]

Yes. So, I mean, there are many, many situations that have been difficult and where I would say that I had failures that produced great learnings and I could talk for an hour just on this. But one of the ones that I think learned the most from was that early on I was very keen and a bit evangelical about it. And I felt like I had all the answers that people were seeking. And so how that manifested was I talked too much, I would jump in, and I was always offering solutions and ideas and suggestions. And one day someone pulled me aside and they said, darrell, you know, I don't know if, you know, don't. If you've realized this, but you're not really giving other people time to, you know, come up with ideas or to really take ownership of of a problem or a situation because you're always jumping in. And. And I was like, oh, my God, really? And they said, I've got a fantastic tool for you. And it's called. Wait, as an acronym.

[B]

And it's a great tool.

[C]

Yeah. And as an acronym, the weight stands for why am I talking? Right. W a I T y M I talking. And so they said, you know, just when you realize you're about to talk, you're about to jump in or whatever, just ask yourself, wait, why am I talking? Is it because, you know, you want to prove yourself, or is it because, you know, you. You think you know better than other people? Or is it because, like, what is it? And then ask yourself, do you really. Is this the right moment for you to give an idea or a suggestion, or is this the right moment to just listen and let them have space to come up with ideas and talk about stuff and whatever. Whatever. And it was just such a. It was such a generous gift, and I really took to noticing how often I had that tendency to jump in. And so I started using weight all the time. And. Yeah. Now. And it's been amazing to develop so much better skills in active listening and, you know, giving people holding a space for people. And. Yeah, it's been incredible.

[B]

Okay, so we need to dive into that a little bit more. I totally get the idea of why am I talking? But I can hear my younger self maybe saying, wait a minute. But if you see a problem happening, like, you know, this is about to, you know, turn into the wrong direction, they're missing this piece of information. Oh, my God. If I don't act now, they're going to screw up. What did you do in those situations?

[C]

It's a really good question, Vasco. And so what I found was, with practicing this technique is that I got to ask myself, like, do I, like, is this a situation where it's small enough to try, safe enough to fail? So this is a little catchphrase I use for experimentation and things. Is this something that's small enough to try, safe enough to fail? If it is, do I let them make a decision or go down a direction that I think is not going to work and let them try it out and let them discover for themselves? You know, as a. As a parent of kids, I unfortunately need to let my kids make their own mistakes and learn from their mistakes. I can't stop them from making mistakes, and they don't learn from my mistakes. They only learn from their own mistakes. Right. So. So it's kind of the same thing. And then there are other times when I go, no, there's a risk assessment or there's something really critical here that I do need to step in. And so it's having a more balanced, nuanced moment to ask myself that question, do I need to step in here? And. And what I found was, yes, there are some times when I really did. But there were quite a few times where I initially I thought, oh, yes, I need to jump in, I've got the answer, or whatever. And then if I just stop talking and watch and I'm like, this is what I think the group needs to realize or the decision that needs to be made or whatever, and just wait, is anyone else going to do it? Often someone else would eventually come up with that observation or that idea or whatever, and I'd go, ah, I didn't have to. And it gives other people this empowering moment and. And so on.

[B]

So, yeah, so I. I totally see your giving other people the empowering moment. And I raise you the idea that our job is to create the potential for shared leadership where everybody can come in at any point and bring their thoughts and their perspective and enter. And when I enter the conversation before I give option to the others, all of the others to come in, because some are slower than others, right? When I don't give them the option to come in, I'm actually teaching them that it's okay to be silent even when they have something to say. So I totally see that. And I think we also need, as grandmasters and agile coaches, we need to realize that part of our job is to help other people be leaders themselves. And we can't do that unless we step back enough for them to have the opportunity. Opportunity to step in 100%.

[C]

Yeah. And so these days I view it as my role to kind of try and create that space and hold that space for someone to step up and have that leadership moment or that idea or whatever. And I'm kind of then more now as a backup. It's like if no one else can see this or come up with this idea, then I'm here and I can contribute it. But first I'm going to hold the space to see if someone else can do it.

[B]

So some tips on holding the space. If the listeners are interested. We have two great episodes with David Marquette where he talks about his own approach of creating that space. So make sure that you listen to those episodes because what Daryl just said is very important. But we need to have the technique to hold the space even when we need to intervene. So one thing is to step back, right? Like that's what we've been talking about. But even when we need to step in, we still can do it while we hold the space and allow others to take leadership. So that's a very important perspective. So check out the episodes. The link will be in the show. Notes Darrel it's been a great story. Thank you for sharing that with us.

[C]

Thank you so much Vasco. And just a shout out. I love everything David Marquette's done. So yeah, me too.

[B]

Love to have him on the podcast and hope to have him back.

[C]

Amazing.

[A]

Alright, I hope you liked this episode, but before you hit next episode, here's the deal. This podcast is powered by people like you, the members who wanted more than just inspiration. They wanted real tools and real connection to people who are practicing Agile. Every day we're talking access to over 700 hours of agile Gold, CTO level Strategy talks, Summit keynotes, live workshops, E courses, Deep Dive Interviews, books, and if you're into no Estimates, we got the pioneers of no Estimates in those Deep Dive interviews as well. Agile Business Intelligence, Creating Product Visions, coaching your product owner courses, you name it. You'll get invites to monthly live Q&As with agile pioneers and practitioners, plus a private Slack community which is free of.

[B]

All of that AI slop you see everywhere.

[A]

And of course without the flame wars. It's a community of practitioners that want to learn and thrive together. It's the best place to connect with community and learn together. So if this podcast has helped you before, imagine what you will get from this podcast membership. So head on over to scrummastertoolbox.org membership and join the community that's shaping the future of Agile. We have so much for you, so check out all the [e-mail] membership because listening is great. It's important. But doing it together, that's next level. I'll see you in the community Slack.

[B]

We really hope you liked our show. And if you did, why not rate.

[A]

This podcast on Stitcher or itunes, Share.

[B]

This podcast and let other Scrum Masters.

[A]

Know about this valuable resource for their work.

[B]

Remember that sharing is caring.