B (3:51)

It sounds familiar. I remember struggling with all of the rules and steps that we needed to go through, which, by the way, I emerging now again in the AI age of programming. We can talk more about that later. But that perspective kind of like, oh, there's a way, or there's a name for the way I like to work. That's a very interesting perspective. And I wonder, as we dive into the failure question, because that's the key question for Mondays, right? As we dive into the failure question, I wonder if that is also part of the story. So tell us the story of a difficult moment you had as a Scrum master, Darrel, and walk us through the context so that we know where we are. And then what was the thing that you did that kind of derailed things?

C (4:37)

Yes. So, I mean, there are many, many situations that have been difficult and where I would say that I had failures that produced great learnings and I could talk for an hour just on this. But one of the ones that I think learned the most from was that early on I was very keen and a bit evangelical about it. And I felt like I had all the answers that people were seeking. And so how that manifested was I talked too much, I would jump in, and I was always offering solutions and ideas and suggestions. And one day someone pulled me aside and they said, darrell, you know, I don't know if, you know, don't. If you've realized this, but you're not really giving other people time to, you know, come up with ideas or to really take ownership of of a problem or a situation because you're always jumping in. And. And I was like, oh, my God, really? And they said, I've got a fantastic tool for you. And it's called. Wait, as an acronym.

B (5:49)

And it's a great tool.

C (5:51)

Yeah. And as an acronym, the weight stands for why am I talking? Right. W a I T y M I talking. And so they said, you know, just when you realize you're about to talk, you're about to jump in or whatever, just ask yourself, wait, why am I talking? Is it because, you know, you want to prove yourself, or is it because, you know, you. You think you know better than other people? Or is it because, like, what is it? And then ask yourself, do you really. Is this the right moment for you to give an idea or a suggestion, or is this the right moment to just listen and let them have space to come up with ideas and talk about stuff and whatever. Whatever. And it was just such a. It was such a generous gift, and I really took to noticing how often I had that tendency to jump in. And so I started using weight all the time. And. Yeah. Now. And it's been amazing to develop so much better skills in active listening and, you know, giving people holding a space for people. And. Yeah, it's been incredible.

B (6:57)

Okay, so we need to dive into that a little bit more. I totally get the idea of why am I talking? But I can hear my younger self maybe saying, wait a minute. But if you see a problem happening, like, you know, this is about to, you know, turn into the wrong direction, they're missing this piece of information. Oh, my God. If I don't act now, they're going to screw up. What did you do in those situations?

C (7:26)

It's a really good question, Vasco. And so what I found was, with practicing this technique is that I got to ask myself, like, do I, like, is this a situation where it's small enough to try, safe enough to fail? So this is a little catchphrase I use for experimentation and things. Is this something that's small enough to try, safe enough to fail? If it is, do I let them make a decision or go down a direction that I think is not going to work and let them try it out and let them discover for themselves? You know, as a. As a parent of kids, I unfortunately need to let my kids make their own mistakes and learn from their mistakes. I can't stop them from making mistakes, and they don't learn from my mistakes. They only learn from their own mistakes. Right. So. So it's kind of the same thing. And then there are other times when I go, no, there's a risk assessment or there's something really critical here that I do need to step in. And so it's having a more balanced, nuanced moment to ask myself that question, do I need to step in here? And. And what I found was, yes, there are some times when I really did. But there were quite a few times where I initially I thought, oh, yes, I need to jump in, I've got the answer, or whatever. And then if I just stop talking and watch and I'm like, this is what I think the group needs to realize or the decision that needs to be made or whatever, and just wait, is anyone else going to do it? Often someone else would eventually come up with that observation or that idea or whatever, and I'd go, ah, I didn't have to. And it gives other people this empowering moment and. And so on.

B (9:16)

So, yeah, so I. I totally see your giving other people the empowering moment. And I raise you the idea that our job is to create the potential for shared leadership where everybody can come in at any point and bring their thoughts and their perspective and enter. And when I enter the conversation before I give option to the others, all of the others to come in, because some are slower than others, right? When I don't give them the option to come in, I'm actually teaching them that it's okay to be silent even when they have something to say. So I totally see that. And I think we also need, as grandmasters and agile coaches, we need to realize that part of our job is to help other people be leaders themselves. And we can't do that unless we step back enough for them to have the opportunity. Opportunity to step in 100%.

C (10:07)

Yeah. And so these days I view it as my role to kind of try and create that space and hold that space for someone to step up and have that leadership moment or that idea or whatever. And I'm kind of then more now as a backup. It's like if no one else can see this or come up with this idea, then I'm here and I can contribute it. But first I'm going to hold the space to see if someone else can do it.

B (10:29)

So some tips on holding the space. If the listeners are interested. We have two great episodes with David Marquette where he talks about his own approach of creating that space. So make sure that you listen to those episodes because what Daryl just said is very important. But we need to have the technique to hold the space even when we need to intervene. So one thing is to step back, right? Like that's what we've been talking about. But even when we need to step in, we still can do it while we hold the space and allow others to take leadership. So that's a very important perspective. So check out the episodes. The link will be in the show. Notes Darrel it's been a great story. Thank you for sharing that with us.

C (11:10)

Thank you so much Vasco. And just a shout out. I love everything David Marquette's done. So yeah, me too.

B (11:17)

Love to have him on the podcast and hope to have him back.

C (11:21)

Amazing.

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