Why Great Product Owners Listen—Communication Lessons from Product Ownership Extremes | Deniz Ari

Summary

Episode Summary: Why Great Product Owners Listen—Communication Lessons from Product Ownership Extremes | Denise Ari

In this insightful episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host John engages in a deep conversation with Denise Ari, a seasoned Agile Coach and Certified Scrum Master. The discussion centers around the pivotal role of Product Owners (POs) in Agile teams, exploring both negative and positive examples to extract valuable lessons on effective communication and team collaboration.

---

1. Understanding Product Owner Anti-Patterns

Denise begins by shedding light on detrimental behaviors exhibited by ineffective Product Owners, which she refers to as "anti-patterns." She shares a particularly challenging experience from a high-stakes migration project within the public sector:

Denise Ari [01:33]: "Anti patterns are ways in which Scrum team functions isn't it? And disrupting the workflow of the Scrum and we need to reduce this kind of things before the business value and the product."

In this scenario, the Product Owner not only overstepped their role but also took on responsibilities typically managed by a Scrum Master and other roles within the team. This included micromanaging, pushing team members to work overtime, and consistently criticizing both the team's work and architectural decisions. Denise describes the PO's approach as:

Denise Ari [03:52]: "It was a tyranny there and it's just like a very despotic and very weak communication and always one way thing."

The consequence of such leadership was severe disruption and stress within the team, ultimately leading Denise to step down from her Scrum Master role for her well-being:

Denise Ari [05:11]: "I stepped down the project because it was not working and it was affecting my well being."

This experience underscores the critical impact a PO can have on team dynamics and project success when their approach is domineering and lacks open communication.

---

2. Navigating Organizational Challenges

John acknowledges the rarity of such negative experiences, emphasizing that not all organizations or POs exhibit these harmful traits:

John [06:43]: "Right. And at the same time we hired two more senior engineers to company to new... they have no idea what's going on and with drama."

Denise echoes this sentiment, highlighting the importance of recognizing when organizational structures and politics impede effective Agile practices:

Denise Ari [07:54]: "We can't change anything. We are not superhero. I know people think Scrum Masters are heroes and comments fix everything."

She advises Scrum Masters to prioritize their well-being and recognize the limits of their influence within dysfunctional setups.

---

3. Traits of Exceptional Product Owners

Shifting focus to the positive, Denise shares her experiences with exemplary Product Owners who significantly enhance team performance through effective communication and collaboration:

Denise Ari [08:59]: "They worked very smooth... They are really good communicator. They're very open and it's really good communicator."

Key attributes of these great POs include:

• Active Listening: They engage in two-way communication, ensuring that both their inputs and the team's feedback are valued:

  Denise Ari [09:44]: "They listen, they talk, they listen."

• Clarity in Vision and Priorities: Exceptional POs ensure that the team fully understands the product vision, priorities, and the rationale behind decisions:

  Denise Ari [10:13]: "They have like a realistic expectation and the rationale behind the decision... They turning like a bridge between the clients."

• Motivational Leadership: By clearly articulating the vision and priorities, these POs foster a sense of ownership and motivation within the team:

  Denise Ari [11:33]: "This is a big motivation for engineering."

• Effective Backlog Management: They adeptly prioritize the backlog, facilitating smooth sprint planning and execution:

  Denise Ari [12:42]: "If you know what you're delivering, if you know what's the priority and what should be done in this time in this sprint."

---

4. The Reciprocal Benefits of Good Communication

The conversation highlights that effective communication from Product Owners not only clarifies the team's direction but also fosters loyalty and constructive feedback:

John [12:42]: "Good communication comes back to you right. Because it comes back in the form of better questions. It comes back in the form of feedback. It comes back in the form of loyalty."

Denise reinforces this by explaining how clear communication leads to higher team engagement and ownership:

Denise Ari [12:42]: "If they can show their ownership it's going to... engineers care more because they said they're part of it."

---

5. Final Thoughts and Contact Information

As the episode concludes, Denise offers her contact information for listeners seeking further insights or wishing to connect:

Denise Ari [13:45]: "For myself people can easily to reach out LinkedIn... I'm always happy to answer the question."

She emphasizes the continuous learning journey in Agile practices, even after several years of experience.

---

Key Takeaways

• Effective Communication is Crucial: Product Owners must prioritize open, two-way communication to ensure team alignment and motivation.

• Avoiding Anti-Patterns Enhances Team Health: Recognizing and addressing detrimental behaviors early can prevent long-term dysfunction within Agile teams.

• Ownership and Clarity Drive Success: Clear vision, prioritized backlogs, and taking ownership inspire teams to deliver their best work.

• Well-Being of Scrum Masters is Paramount: It's essential for Scrum Masters to acknowledge their limits and prioritize their well-being in challenging environments.

This episode offers profound insights into the dynamics between Product Owners and Scrum Masters, emphasizing the transformative power of effective communication and leadership in Agile teams.

Transcript

[Host]

Have you ever wondered what it really takes to make Agile work well? At the Global Agile Summit, we're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action. Whether you're a leader, a product innovator, a developer, you'll hear practical insights from those who've done it. They'll be telling their own stories from the stage. I'll tell you more about this at the end of this episode. So stay back and listen to the full detailed description of what we have in store for you at the Global Agile Summit. But if you can't wait, you can go right now to globalagilesummit.com and check out our full schedule for now onto the episode. But I'll see you at the end of this episode with more details on the Global Agile Summit. Talk to you soon.

[John]

Hello everybody. Welcome to our TGIF and Friday episode the Product owner episode this week with Denise Ari. Hey Denise, welcome back.

[Denise Ari]

Hi.

[John]

So product owner of course we're going to talk about great product owners in a minute but as always we start with the failure aspect which is important because we need to learn from it. So share with us Denise, the worst product owner anti pattern you've witnessed in your career.

[Denise Ari]

Okay, my favorite part again anti and the negative points which is the big thing is literally it's very enlightenment moment when you see something is not working. My story it's. I just. I was thinking which one shall I pick? Because I had couple of them but let me pick the first one for you. Anti patterns are ways in which Scrum team functions isn't it? And the disrupting the workflow of the Scrum and we need to reduce this kind of things before the business value and the product. My story is another super stressful migration project and it's gonna be. It's about one super biggest public sector services and but there was no any budget. You know there was no any budget limitation, no tight deadline. You know the it was more flexible and big projects and there was no concern in the beginning. But what happened we had a very interesting PO which is he can go to books because what he's done or he she it's this person step in Scrum master role. You know the PMO roles micromanage the people push people over time and keep you know asking questions not regarding related with the project questioning the architect solutions not being part of the team question team and criticizing constantly to being part of the you know the we didn't understand he was what he was trying to do so.

[John]

So what you're describing is that kind of this product owner wasn't only acting as a product owner but they were kind of taking over the Scrum Master role. They wanted to be the architect as well. They wanted to be the line manager because asked people to come in and do overtime. So it was almost as if the product owner thought that they owned everybody and everything. Is that.

[Denise Ari]

Yes. Yes. It was a tyranny there and it's just like a very despotic and very weak communication and always one way thing. And it was a really interesting experience and it happened and it did finalize. Very interesting way. Yes. And because you know everyone has a limitation as a Scrum Master you're dealing with so many small things and it's tiring and you know, it's. You need energy definitely. If you, you can't let it go, you can't ignore it because it's just gonna come to your chat, your email, isn't it? Because people need to. As a Scrum Master you need to own it. This is the problem. It's not working. You can't avoid it. If you're going to avoid it, you're going to lose the people. This is the fact. Yeah. And this. I stepped down the project because it was not working and it was affecting my well being and it was. I did raise my concern. Nothing happened. I removed myself as a Scrum Master and I just. We just assign another Scrum Master and after two weeks later this PO decide they he doesn't need a scammer at all.

[John]

Of course he didn't need anyone. Right.

[Host]

Like.

[John]

Or she, whoever the PO was because they were acting as if they could do everything on their own.

[Denise Ari]

Yeah. And at the same time we hired two more senior engineers to company to new. You know that they just coming from totally different environment to this company. They have no idea what's going on and with drama. But how about this? What's the. What's wrong with these people? You know, they just landed, they need support, they need onboarding. They have tons of questions about culture, about this. I, I really upset and I try to, you know, to support them with some basic steps. Still doesn't matter because I have empathy if I land any role, if I left my another job and come to another company and land in this middle of the drama. Of course I have empathy for them. You know, the people's people's own day job. They need to prove themselves and they are very senior people. You know, doesn't matter. But I was Just trying to be mindful, you know, not like avoiding and just say, oh, they don't need a scammer. So they, this is the, so they got the solution. But yeah, it's, it was a very interesting point. I still couldn't believe it. You know, the, of course I should believe it. It's just the way of working and the nature of the business, you know, the.

[John]

Well, I, okay, so I, I, I would say this was the nature of this product owner. Right. Because not all product owners are like this.

[Denise Ari]

Right.

[John]

There are product owners who are collaborative, who help the teams, who work well with the Scrum Masters.

[Denise Ari]

Yes.

[John]

And all of that. So I would not say that any business is like this. Some organizations are like this. And of course that's a different conversation.

[Denise Ari]

Yeah. We have another opposite example. So many. This is the only example. And a very marginal situation happens and.

[John]

It is sad when this happens. Right. But I think that one aspect that I want to highlight is that when you decided to kind of get out of that project and say, okay, this is not for me, I think that's a very good way to look at this. Sometimes the way the organization is structured, how the power structures and politics are going, we can't do anything about. And at that point it is painful and it is sad. But it's better to get out and let the organization take care of itself. Because we can't solve the organization's problems alone. Right? No, we need the PO to be on board. We need the team to be on board. And if those are not the case, then at some point we might just decide that, hey, this is not for me. I can't do this. I need to move on.

[Denise Ari]

Definitely. And especially having pause, you know, the having a moment and think about it. Yes. We can't change anything. We are not superhero. I know people think Scrum Masters are heroes and comments fix everything. No, they just very vulnerable. Our position is very vulnerable, very open to, you know, the especially we can easily to take any things to ourselves because we can say no easily. We can say, oh, this is wrong. Make visible everyone's and asking open questions. Doesn't matter what's the title or you know, where we are coming from. That's why as a Scrum Master, if it's not working, if you do what you've done, just don't burn yourself too much.

[John]

Don't burn yourself out. Of course.

[Denise Ari]

Yeah, yeah, okay.

[John]

But there are not only bad product owners, there are some great product owners out there as well. So let's talk about one of Those Denise, the best product owner that you've ever worked with, how did they work?

[Denise Ari]

They worked very smooth. It was. I couldn't even feel they are like a product owner or you know they were like here forever. I don't feel they are new or they don't know or not non technical. I think this is the maybe common things what they have. They are really good communicator. You know the. And when you talk with someone it's like a two way communication, isn't it? You listen, they talk, they. You know the you talk, they listen and they were very careful what they coming from. They're very open and it's really good communicator.

[John]

And so when you talk about this communication aspect the skills that this product owner had specifically so one aspect you already mentioned which is that they were a very good listener. Right. Like they were also able to listen not just talk but when you think about the collaboration with the team specifically what were the great things when it comes to communication what were the great things that this product owner was doing that helping the communication with the team.

[Denise Ari]

They ensuring the team understand what we are delivering with the very basic level, you know what's the highlighting, what's the priorities and they are. They have like a realistic expectation and the rationale behind the decision. Because it's. It's keep changing isn't it every week or every sprint or I know the product is going to be staying but so many things keep changing. In my area it's very liquid, you know the general keep changing about. You know but what I can see as a communication wise they are clear. You know the they're good communicator. They're ensuring people understand priorities. You know the product vision where we. Where is this decision coming from? They turning like a. Like a bridge between the clients. Because we're taking business requirements, we are implementing, we're taking solutions. Signing off with the client is nothing. We are doing our own. But still it can change. It's still they. They can adapt it and they can come and explain. Doesn't matter how they talk technical or non technical. They just feeding the team with the news. You know the feeding team with what they are doing. This is the big motivation for engineering.

[John]

And that's actually a very good point because when the product owner is a good communicator creating clarity in terms of direction, priorities, vision, they are able to motivate the team as well, right?

[Denise Ari]

Definitely. Because they own if they have. If they can show their ownership it's going to. It's Like a epidemic. You know, if someone's more bold and taking ownership and you're calling po. Of course engineers care more because they said they're part of it. They feel they own it. You know, they, they it's really happening. You know, it's nothing. Oh, do whatever you like. I'm just going to take care of the paperwork. No, if you're on the what you are delivering and the feeding the team with your vision, I think this is a big motivation and prioritize, you know the backlog, backlog management. If you know what you're delivering, if you know what's the priority and what should be done in this time in this sprint. And this is going to be very, very helpful for anything, for any plan even. It's going to be helpful more than team to peer because more it's going to be more clear picture.

[John]

Yeah and that's the other aspect is like good communication comes back to you right. Because it comes back in the form of better questions. It comes back in the form of feedback, it comes back in the form of loyalty. Right. Like the team is more loyal to the product owner and there's so many positive side effects to good communication that maybe the next certified Scrum product owner course version should include a whole section on how to be a good communicator because it's such an important part of, of the role. Definitely a great aspect of or an aspect of great product owners. So thank you for sharing that Denise.

[Denise Ari]

No worries.

[John]

We're almost at the end. But before we go Denise, if people want to get in touch with you maybe ask a few follow up questions, maybe talk more about the product owners where could they go?

[Denise Ari]

For myself people can easily to reach out LinkedIn I'm happy to share and I'm keep every day I'm checking my LinkedIn because there was a really good opportunity especially and you can have more different perspective from how they implementing Agile. You know the stories and real stories and it's really amazing. I'm always happy to answer the question if there's any question I am coming. I'm still part of the very live aria you know the very lively. We keep having so many things every day and this is keep me motivated. Maybe I'm still learning after four years still learning with same services, same people generally but I'm still learning every day and yeah they can easily to free.

[John]

To message and we'll put Denise LinkedIn page on the show notes so that you can easily reach out and why not ask a few follow up questions yes, Denise, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.

[Denise Ari]

Thank you so much.

[Host]

Hey friend, thank you for staying here is all you need to know about the Global Agile Summit if you've ever suffered or know people who are suffering from Agile fatigue, this event is for you. Agile fatigue is that feeling that settles in when we can't really see a light at the end of the tunnel. We get discouraged, especially when conversations revolve around the same old frameworks, the same old buzzwords and theories. We don't feel that energy anymore. Well, the Global Agile Summit is a different kind of event. We're bringing you real life first person stories of agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action and transform the way you work. The Global Agile Summit will happen In Tallinn, Estonia, May 18th. That's the workshop day. And then 19th and 20th, the conference day. And Tallinn, Estonia is one of the most innovative tech hubs in Europe. The Global Agile Summit is hosted together with Latitude 59, which is kind of a citywide celebration of software startups and groundbreaking ideas. And we'll have a shared ticket for you to attend those events as well. So who will be speaking? Well, we've got an incredible lineup of thought leaders in software and agile. For example, Clinton Keith, the person who wrote, literally wrote the book on game development with Scrum and is busy bringing Agile to the world of game development. You must check his session. The very famous and well known Jurgen Apello, author of Management 3.0, will be talking and exploring about AI's impact on leadership. We also have Goiko Adsic, who's taking an unconventional look at product growth with his Lizard Optimization keynote. Other speakers include, e.g. sig Sven Dietz, who's challenging everything we know about software development by ditching, literally ditching contracts and estimates. Can you imagine his teams deliver software before their competitors are even done with the contract negotiation? How agile is that? But there's more. We'll cover engineering practices in our developer track with talks on, for example, AI assisted test driven development, developing products in minutes with a different approach to how we develop, configure, deploy platforms, and much more. We also have a product track where we cover cutting edge ideas around product discovery, delighting customers with product delight frameworks. We'll have a talk about that. And we also have an Agile business track where we will talk about, for example, open strategy, a very agile approach to managing organization organizations and delivering software faster to clients faster than you can even write a contract. Literally I mean, I already told you about Svendit's story is amazing. It definitely is a must see. I'm sure you'll be inspired and get a lot of ideas for your own software projects and software delivery. Now whether you're a business leader, a product innovation innovator or a developer, you'll definitely find value in our three focused tracks. That's Agile Business for those working with businesses and organizations Agile Product for product managers, product owners and innovators and Agile Developer for the builders making Agile work in practice. The coders, the testers, the designers, the producers, the Scrum masters, you name it. If you join, you will meet over 200 agile professionals from all over the world. People who just like you, want to grow, want to share and want to learn by challenging the ideas that don't work anymore. At the Global Agile Summit, you'll get new connections, fresh ideas and the energy to take your own Agile to the next level level. And who knows, maybe even find your next career opportunity. So don't miss out. Check out the full program and grab your ticket now at global agile summit.com I'm really looking forward to seeing you all in Tallinn, Estonia in May.

[John]

I'll see you there.