Podcast Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast

Episode: Why System Design Beats Individual Coaching Every Time
Guest: Karim Harbott
Host: Vasco Duarte
Release Date: November 4, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode focuses on how systemic factors within organizations are often the true root cause of team dysfunctions—far more than individual or team-level failings. Karim Harbott, a leading Agile coach and Less (Large Scale Scrum) trainer, joins Vasco Duarte to share compelling stories and actionable insights about system-centered problem solving. Rather than blaming individuals, Karim advocates for designing better environments that enable teams to thrive.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Books and Influences on the Agile Journey

• Karim’s Most Impactful Book
  Karim discusses the profound impact that Scaling Lean & Agile Development by Craig Larman and Bas Vodde (2008) had on his career.

  • Introduced systems thinking, systems modeling, queuing theory, feature teams, and holistic approaches to scaling agility.
  • Emphasized principles that later became the foundation of the LeSS framework.
  • Led to a deeper understanding of complex systems and cognitive biases.

  "That book contributed more to my knowledge and experience than any other book...I felt like that book contributed more to my knowledge and experience than any other book. So I started implementing those things."
  — Karim Harbott [04:07]

• Other Book Mentions

  • Mike Cohn’s "User Stories Applied" and "Agile Estimating and Planning" as early-career essentials.

  "I’d answer it like I was an expert. And really I just read it like two hours ago. So thank you, Mike, for keeping me in my job."
  — Karim Harbott [01:55]

2. The Importance of System Design Over Individual Coaching

• Teams React to Their Environment

  • Karim argues most issues are symptoms of a poorly designed system rather than personal failures.
  • Changing the surrounding system yields disproportionate positive effects compared to trying to change people directly.
  • Karim channels thought leaders like Jocko Willink (Extreme Ownership: “No bad teams, just bad leaders”) and David Marquet (“change the environment, not the people”).

  "Individuals and teams do the best job they can do in the system that’s been designed for them...if what we’re seeing are anti-patterns, our behaviors that we don’t want to see...it’s more useful to look at the system that’s been designed around them."
  — Karim Harbott [06:37]

3. Real-World Story: Systemic Anti-Patterns at a Large Bank

• The Dysfunctional Team Case Study

  • Karim recounts coaching teams at a major UK bank where one team struggled with excessive bugs and a lack of collaboration between developers and testers.
  • Retrospectives and attempts at improved collaboration (Behavior Driven Development/specification by example) initially failed.

• Root Cause: Perverse Incentives

  • Developers and testers were from different vendor companies based in different locations.
  • Worse, payment was tied to per-defect metrics: testers were paid per bug found, developers per bug fixed.
  • This led to rational but adversarial behavior, incentivizing more defects and reinforcing silos.

  "...the testers were from one company, the developers were from another company...The testers were paid by the number of defects they found and then the developers were paid by the number of defects they fixed. Right. So you can't make this up...Who's written this contract? This is a terrible idea."
  — Karim Harbott [09:27]

• The Turnaround: Systemic Solutions

  • Structure reorganized so testers and developers from the same company formed unified teams.
  • Enabled true collaboration—shared scenarios were created, reducing misunderstandings and drastically lowering defects.
  • After ~8 months, productivity improved by an estimated 30-40% as teams could focus on delivering new features instead of rework.

  "We finally got to the point where the team was sitting together...and then of course, when they came to test, they found far fewer defects...Imagine if you could be 30, 40% more productive, right? Just that tweak."
  — Karim Harbott [11:19]

4. The Principle: Bad Systems Defeat Good People

• Blame the System, Not the Individual

  • Bad systems demotivate good people; the right environment is essential for high performance.
  • It’s nearly impossible for any team to sustainably excel in a dysfunctional system.

  "A bad system will always beat down a good person. Every time."
  — Vasco Duarte [12:17]

  "It's very hard to be a high performing team in a dysfunctional system, right? Yeah, absolutely."
  — Karim Harbott [12:54]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Book Impact and Systemic Roots

  "I love that book. I still have my copy. I don't have many physical books anymore, but I still have this one because it's been so impactful."
  — Karim Harbott [05:25]

• Kafkaesque Contracting

  "I think Kafka wrote the contract."
  — Vasco Duarte [10:35]

• Metrics Gone Wrong

  "They were doing what was reasonable for them to do...it was entirely rational behavior."
  — Karim Harbott [10:43]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:20] Karim’s influential books and learning journey
• [06:35] Introduction of the root cause lens: systems, not individuals
• [09:00] Dysfunctional incentive structures in team contracts
• [11:19] System redesign, improved collaboration, and dramatic productivity gains
• [12:17] The principle: Bad systems stifle good people
• [13:06] Final reflections on systemic change and team performance

Tone and Language

• The episode maintains a conversational, candid, and practical tone, with humor and relatable analogies.
• Karim is open about past mistakes and learnings, making the content accessible and credible for Scrum Masters and coaches.

Takeaway

For Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches: Focus on systemic conditions—not just individual coaching—to unlock team performance. Examine how contracts, organizational design, incentives, and culture shape team behaviors, and tackle root causes at the system level for lasting Agile transformation.