Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
Episode Title: Why the Us-Versus-Them Mentality Is the Fastest Path to Team Self-Destruction | Lai-Ling Su
Date: February 24, 2026
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Lai-Ling Su

Episode Overview

This episode explores how the "us-versus-them" mentality is a key driver of team self-destruction within Agile environments. Scrum Master and Agile Coach Lai-Ling Su joins host Vasco Duarte to share a candid story of a leadership team caught in this dynamic following a challenging merger. Together, they unpack the layers of dysfunctional team patterns, the critical importance of awareness, and the vital role coaches and Scrum Masters play in addressing invisible destructive forces.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Power of Reading Across Domains

• Lai-Ling’s perspective: No single book fundamentally shaped her approach; rather, broad and consistent reading within and beyond her expertise built her wisdom and perspective.
• Key insight: By studying topics outside Agile—such as medicine and palliative care—Lai-Ling draws parallels with transformation, adaptation, and tough conversations required in Agile teams.
• [02:43] Lai-Ling Su:
  "To build wisdom and perspective, I think you need to regularly read within your own domain of expertise but read far and wide across all topics and genres outside of your domain like your life depends on it."

Notable Book References

• Atul Gawande’s "Checklist Manifesto":
  Challenges the idea that checklists remove autonomy and shows their value in high-stakes environments.
  • "Checklists are a rapid-fire communication tool that is the difference between whether a seriously injured soldier dies on the battlefield or makes it to a war hospital and then back to a stateside hospital with a good chance of survival." — [04:36] Lai-Ling Su
• "When Breath Becomes Air":
  A surgeon’s journey through a life-altering cancer diagnosis mirrors the identity shifts leaders face during organizational change.
• Works by Catherine Mannix:
  Emphasize the courage needed to handle emotionally charged, taboo conversations, which are applicable in high-stakes business environments.

Failure Story: Team Self-Destruction Through Division

Three Layers of "Us vs. Them"

[07:29] Lai-Ling introduces her story:
"The quickest way to self-destruction is to have an us versus them mentality because it permeates into every behavior, every action or inaction, and it impacts every single outcome."

1. Post-Merger Cultural Clash

   • Two organizations—one large and bureaucratic, the other small and agile—merge, but cultural integration is neglected.
   • New leadership is split evenly, yet loyalists remain factional, undermining decision-making and delivery.
   • "The larger entity actually wanted the speed and the innovation that the smaller entity had, but they were at the same time strangling them with bureaucracy." — [08:17] Lai-Ling Su

2. Departmental Silos

   • Separate business and technology goals lead teams to prioritize pleasing their direct managers over working collaboratively toward shared outcomes.
   • Lack of a unified purpose results in slow progress, repeated work due to misaligned priorities, and significant rework.
   • "In lieu of a genuinely connected single-purpose, [they] fell back to people pleasing... rather than working collaboratively together to understand, well, what's the purpose of the merged entity and how are they going to best achieve and deliver value?" — [09:12] Lai-Ling Su

3. Growth vs. Legacy Tension

   • Competing ambitions (innovation vs. supporting legacy systems) create further division.
   • These patterns often become “invisible” and normalized, even when they are destructive.
   • "When you're in these classic scenarios, it's invisible because you just accept that it's just a part of doing business." — [11:36] Lai-Ling Su

The Invisible Nature of Systemic Problems

• Host Vasco draws an analogy: "It's like asking a fish about water, right?" [11:58]

• Lai-Ling agrees:
  "So it's not so different that you call it out, you just accept it, and it becomes invisible. It's destructive, right?" — [12:02]

• Vasco notes how these patterns often reinforce each other, compounding the problem, making it harder for teams—and leaders—to perceive the real issue.

  • "Sometimes you only have them as kind of specks of problems in your windshield, but then they just kind of help each other and soon enough the windshield is all scattered and you have no windshield anymore." — [13:05] Vasco Duarte

The Role of Awareness and Leadership Responsibility

• “We should never underestimate the simplicity of creating awareness. Because until somebody can see it, they can't do anything about it even if they wanted to.” — [14:05] Lai-Ling Su

• Vasco adds:
  "Never overestimate the ability of others to see things that are obvious to you." — [14:16]

• Takeaway:
  Agile leaders, Scrum Masters, and coaches must courageously and diplomatically raise awareness of these classic destructive patterns, even if it risks making them outliers. The act of naming and making the invisible visible is the first step to change.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• [02:43] Lai-Ling: “To build wisdom and perspective, I think you need to regularly read within your own domain... but read far and wide across all topics and genres outside of your domain like your life depends on it.”
• [07:29] Lai-Ling: “The quickest way to self-destruction is to have an us versus them mentality because it permeates into every behavior, every action or inaction, and it impacts every single outcome.”
• [12:02] Lai-Ling: “It becomes invisible. It's destructive, right?”
• [14:05] Lai-Ling: “We should never underestimate the simplicity of creating awareness. Because until somebody can see it, they can't do anything about it even if they wanted to.”
• [14:16] Vasco: “Never overestimate the ability of others to see things that are obvious to you.”

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:42] Book recommendations & learning across domains
• [07:29] Team self-destruction story introduction
• [08:17] M&A and cultural issues
• [09:12] Departmental silos and people pleasing
• [11:36] Growth vs. legacy ambitions; normalized dysfunction
• [12:02] Invisibility of systemic issues
• [13:05] Patterns compounding and systems thinking
• [14:05] The importance of awareness and naming problems

Conclusion

This episode powerfully underscores how subtle, normalized divisions—whether stemming from mergers, departmental silos, or competing ambitions—can quietly but thoroughly undermine Agile teams. Lai-Ling Su’s real-world example and cross-disciplinary reflections offer practical reminders for Scrum Masters and Agile coaches: look beyond the obvious, seek out patterns, speak up even when uncomfortable, and above all, help teams see what they’re swimming in.