Why the 'Why' Matters—Product Owner Communication Lessons | Simina Fodor

Summary

Episode Summary: "Why the 'Why' Matters—Product Owner Communication Lessons" featuring Simina Fodor

In this insightful episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte engages in a compelling conversation with Simina Fodor, an experienced Agile Coach and Certified Scrum Master. Titled "Why the 'Why' Matters—Product Owner Communication Lessons", the episode delves deep into the crucial role of Product Owners (PO) in Agile environments, highlighting both detrimental and exemplary behaviors that can significantly impact team dynamics and project success.

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1. The Dark Side: Product Owner Anti-Patterns

Simina opens the discussion by sharing her experiences with problematic Product Owners, painting a vivid picture of behaviors that can undermine Agile practices:

• Command and Control Approach: Simina describes a PO who, despite extensive experience, "felt like backlog grooming was sort of like beneath them" (02:14). This attitude stems from a command and control mindset, where the PO issues directives without fostering collaborative planning.

• Lack of Engagement: She highlights a PO who acted as a ghost, "didn't join Retrospectives" (02:37), effectively cutting off channels for feedback and team reflection. This absence prevents the team from addressing issues and improving processes.

• Arbitrary Priority Changes: The PO was notorious for "changing priorities mid Sprint" without discussing trade-offs or impacts (02:58). Such unpredictability disrupts the team's workflow and can lead to burnout.

• Demanding Immediate Responses: Another critical issue was the PO’s expectation for "a response in two minutes or less" (03:27), fostering a one-way communication street where the team feels pressured but unsupported.

Mark, another participant, aptly summarizes this as a "perfect storm" of anti-patterns, combining absence, control, and lack of transparency (04:12). These behaviors not only demotivate the team but also jeopardize the quality and timely delivery of the product.

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2. Addressing Toxic Product Ownership

When confronted with such challenges, Simina emphasizes the importance of proactive measures:

• Workshops and Agile Principles: She attempted to "go through some of the Agile Mindset principles" (04:33) to realign the PO’s approach with Agile values.

• One-on-One Coaching: Simina invested time in coaching sessions to foster better communication and understanding.

• Involving Leadership: Reflecting on her experience, Simina acknowledges that she "would have involved leadership way early on" (05:27). Engaging higher management can provide the necessary support to address and rectify toxic behaviors.

Despite her efforts, the situation escalated when "half of the team... threatened to leave" (06:16), leading to the reassignment of the problematic PO. This outcome underscores the severe impact that detrimental PO behaviors can have on team morale and retention.

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3. The Exemplary Product Owner: A Model of Effective Communication

Contrasting the negative experiences, Simina shares an inspiring story of her best Product Owner, whose approach significantly enhanced team performance and cohesion:

• Open Communication and Transparency: This PO was "really open to communication" (08:11), fostering an environment where feedback was both given and received constructively.

• Customer-Centric Approach: Coming from a customer support background, the PO brought valuable insights by presenting "use cases from actual customers" and "user flows" (08:35). This ensured that the team's efforts were aligned with genuine user needs.

• Explain the 'Why': A standout trait was the PO’s willingness to "present the logic behind things" (08:45), enabling the team to understand the reasoning behind decisions and fostering a sense of ownership and purpose.

• Supportive Mentorship: The PO actively mentored team members, sharing knowledge about product management, market research, and prioritization techniques (10:26). This not only enhanced individual growth but also strengthened the team's overall expertise.

Simina remarks, "it was a really great experience" (10:35), highlighting how effective Product Ownership can transform team dynamics, enhance product quality, and drive successful outcomes.

Mark adds that such POs make the team's work "more tangible" by bringing in "customer cases", ensuring that the team feels "involved" and "respected" (10:50). This alignment between the PO and the team is crucial for implementing a shared vision effectively.

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4. Insights and Takeaways

The episode underscores several key lessons for Scrum Masters, Agile Coaches, and Product Owners:

• The Importance of Communication: Understanding and conveying the 'why' behind decisions fosters trust and alignment within the team.

• Proactive Leadership Involvement: Early engagement with leadership can mitigate the risks posed by toxic behaviors and support positive change.

• Customer-Centric Product Ownership: Drawing insights from customer interactions enhances the relevance and impact of the product being developed.

• Continuous Mentorship and Knowledge Sharing: Encouraging ongoing learning and mentorship within the team builds a resilient and competent workforce.

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5. Connect with Simina Fodor

For listeners seeking to delve deeper into effective Product Ownership and Agile practices, Simina Fodor offers valuable resources:

• LinkedIn Profile: Accessible for networking and follow-up discussions.
• Website: howtobecomeaPM.com – A platform where Simina shares practical experiences, tips, and mentorship for aspiring Product Managers.

As Simina aptly puts it, her mission is to "guide future professionals" by sharing "real practical experience" that goes beyond theoretical knowledge (12:26).

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6. Closing Thoughts

This episode serves as a powerful reminder of the pivotal role Product Owners play in Agile teams. By avoiding detrimental behaviors and embracing transparent, customer-focused, and communicative practices, POs can significantly enhance team performance and product success. Simina Fodor’s experiences provide both cautionary tales and inspirational examples, offering valuable lessons for anyone involved in Agile project management.

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Quote Highlights:

• Simina Fodor (02:14): "They were basically a ghost."
• Simina Fodor (02:58): "They just wanted to control everything."
• Simina Fodor (05:27): "I would have involved leadership way earlier in the process."
• Simina Fodor (08:45): "They were willing to present the logic behind things."
• Simina Fodor (10:35): "It was a really great experience."

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This episode is a must-listen for Scrum Masters, Agile Coaches, Product Owners, and anyone invested in fostering effective Agile teams. By exploring both the pitfalls and best practices in Product Ownership, Simina Fodor provides actionable insights to enhance communication, collaboration, and overall Agile success.

Transcript

[Host]

Have you ever wondered what it really takes to make Agile work well? At the Global Agile Summit, we're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action. Whether you're a leader, a product innovator, a developer, you. You'll hear practical insights from those who've done it. They'll be telling their own stories from the stage. I'll tell you more about this at the end of this episode, so stay back and listen to the full detailed description of what we have in store for you at the Global Agile Summit. But if you can't wait, you can go right now to globalagilesummit.com and check out our full schedule for now onto the episode. But I'll see you at the end of this episode with more details on the Global Agile Summit. Talk to you soon.

[Mark]

Hello everybody. Welcome to our Friday the TGIF and of course Product Owner episode here on the podcast this week with Simina Fodor. Hey Simina, welcome back.

[Simina Fodor]

Hey everyone, Excited to be here and.

[Mark]

This is an exciting day for us because of course it's Product Owner day here on the podcast. We'll talk about what great product owners do in a second, but before we go there, we do need to understand what are the things that also go wrong in that role. So share with us. Simina, what was potentially the worst product owner anti pattern you've witnessed in your career?

[Simina Fodor]

Sure. This is actually a good one and I do have a name for the type of product owner that I'm going to share with. So I'm not going to name names just in case they're maybe watching or listening to us, but they might recognize. So it was one of the experience that I had quite a few years ago and it was basically a product owner that had a lot of experience under their belt, but they always felt like backlog grooming was sort of like beneath them. So they had an approach.

[Alex]

Having had the experience of a project.

[Simina Fodor]

Manager before with the command and control type of approach, they felt like they.

[Alex]

Could issue decisions and no one would.

[Simina Fodor]

Question them and basically what they said just went. So the patterns that I've seen and the way that they basically manage the.

[Alex]

Whole experience in terms of our overall sprint and planning and backlog refinements and.

[Simina Fodor]

Everything is they were basically a ghost. So the product owner didn't join Retros. We couldn't talk about things that went wrong or basically have a channel of providing feedback. They were the type of product owner that would issue priorities as the wind.

[Alex]

I don't know, maybe as the sun came up and went down. There was no reason behind it or.

[Simina Fodor]

At least they didn't share the reason and the logic behind it. They changed priorities mid Sprint without even having the possibility to discuss about trade offs and impacts and like changing a few things. Let's remove some of the things from the Sprint scope. Let's add other things.

[Alex]

No.

[Simina Fodor]

So they just wanted to control everything and in the same time it was also the product owner that wanted to have all of the updates at the.

[Alex]

Very moment they needed them.

[Simina Fodor]

So like I'm going to send you a message in chat, I expect a response in two minutes or less because I'm that important. So it was an interesting type of personality because they wanted everything when they needed the information, but they weren't necessarily willing to provide anything in return. So it was a one way type of street.

[Mark]

That's like a perfect storm. Right. Like it's all of the anti patterns kind of combined into one. The absence, the command and control mindset, the wanting immediate response but never really giving any response back. Not sharing the why. Wow, that, that was, that's like the perfect product owner but kind of in reverse.

[Simina Fodor]

Yes. And they also had an interesting personality. So add that on top of everything else, you could basically all you could ever want in a product owner.

[Mark]

When you think about that kind of product owner, like if you would have to again work with a product owner like that, where would you start? What would you do to help them?

[Simina Fodor]

Well, I would do some of the things that I did back then, including starting with workshops, trying to go through some of the Agile Mindset principles, some of the things that we're discussing about.

[Alex]

What'S really important and trying to present.

[Simina Fodor]

Them with the benefits. I would do coaching, I tried to do one on one coaching with that product owner in the past as well. But if we're talking about someone that has the potential to really destroy the.

[Alex]

Team because in this case they, they.

[Simina Fodor]

Were really close to doing that. So sometimes it's really important to take.

[Alex]

A step back and recognize where help is needed.

[Simina Fodor]

So as a Scrum master, there's only so much we can do. So we're not magicians, we don't have the magic cards on us all the.

[Alex]

Time and there are situations where we have to take a step back and ask for help.

[Simina Fodor]

So for this situation in particular, what I would have done differently is I.

[Alex]

Would have involved leadership way early on.

[Simina Fodor]

In the process because in this particular.

[Alex]

Experience I spent months and months trying.

[Simina Fodor]

To go through Coaching, to workshopping, to developing a personal relationship with this person, trying basically everything that I had under my belt, all of the prior experience, all of my skills. I was basically throwing anything that I could think of in terms of trying to get to this person and try them, to get them to see that.

[Alex]

Their way is a destructive way. And it has a really high impact.

[Simina Fodor]

In terms of the overall team and.

[Alex]

In terms of the product, in terms of the things that we were shipping.

[Simina Fodor]

I even tried to find friendly faces, like they're friends within the organization to.

[Alex]

Try and see if I can go.

[Simina Fodor]

About it a different way, but that didn't work. So for this particular example, I would.

[Alex]

Have definitely involved leadership way earlier in the process.

[Simina Fodor]

And for this example is what changed is we had half of the team basically threatening to leave and they were senior developers and that's how we fixed the situation. The product owner got reassigned.

[Mark]

I can't imagine working in that team. Even just the developers staying in the team is quite a miracle because with that kind of attitude, that's quite destructive. I think what these days people would call toxic.

[Simina Fodor]

Yes, it definitely is. And nowadays in most organizations, the patterns are really easy to see because you see things in terms of metrics, you see things that maybe sometimes tell you different things. So not necessarily by talking to the team, but you see the outcomes of this type of behaviors. And it's usually quite easy to spot if you have this type of approach in terms of personality and overall professional, let's call them, so you can see.

[Alex]

Them much early on. But this was many, many years ago.

[Simina Fodor]

Or at some point, might say many moons ago.

[Mark]

Many moons ago, indeed. Okay, but not all product owners are like this. Some are really excellent, amazing product owners. So, Simina, who was or how did your best product owner, the best product owner you've seen in your career, how did they work?

[Simina Fodor]

Yes, this was one of the persons that actually shaped my view on product management in general. So was quite an interesting experience in how my career was actually defined. It got me thinking that maybe sometime down, down the down in my career, I might want to switch it up to product management instead. So this was the type of person that was really open to communication.

[Alex]

So they didn't necessarily have a background.

[Simina Fodor]

In product ownership or in product in general. They actually came from a customer support type of role, which is something that I empathize with, seeing how I started my career in customer support as so their personality was definitely a plus because they were really open to communication. They were really open to getting feedback and to providing Feedback. But one of the things that was.

[Alex]

Most important in terms of how they.

[Simina Fodor]

Dealt with the product overall is that they were willing to take the extra step and present the logic behind things.

[Alex]

Basically explaining the why.

[Simina Fodor]

Just to give you some of the examples, they would come to meetings with.

[Alex]

Use cases from actual customers, like their pain points, and trying to explain why we were doing certain features, or when.

[Simina Fodor]

We were trying to break features down into stories or even into tasks. They would be getting involved in the.

[Alex]

Technical aspects of things, like suggesting different.

[Simina Fodor]

Things and trying to understand the logic.

[Alex]

Behind the technical aspects as well.

[Simina Fodor]

And they weren't doing this in a.

[Alex]

Bad way, like you would normally think.

[Simina Fodor]

Like a micromanager type of approach, where.

[Alex]

They would actually get involved in the technical decisions.

[Simina Fodor]

Rather, they were trying to understand the why behind it so they could present.

[Alex]

Their why behind the business decisions, like the actual product.

[Simina Fodor]

And it was really important because not.

[Alex]

Only did the team see the reasons.

[Simina Fodor]

Why we were doing certain things, we.

[Alex]

Were actually seeing visuals.

[Simina Fodor]

Just to give you an example, we weren't only looking at epics and features, we were looking at user flows, we were using at Personas.

[Alex]

So we were actually going through scenarios.

[Simina Fodor]

Where we were experimenting, like what would.

[Alex]

The customer or our user feel if they were using this form or they would be going through this journey. So it was a really open type of approach.

[Simina Fodor]

And their personality of course helped a lot. And they were also really supportive in terms of mentorship. Overall.

[Alex]

There were certain developers from the team.

[Simina Fodor]

That expressed their interest in maybe pursuing different career opportunities or myself included at some point. So they were really open to sharing.

[Alex]

Knowledge in terms of how the product.

[Simina Fodor]

Works, what's ideation, like, how do we do market research, what's really important in.

[Alex]

Terms of prioritization, maybe certain techniques.

[Simina Fodor]

So they were basically sharing their role and how they actually grew into the role, which not only improved their credibility, but also improved the way that the team saw them, myself included. So, yeah, it was a really great experience.

[Mark]

And that's really kind of sharing that. When the PO is able to share their experience, how they're learning, when they bring in customer cases for the team, because it makes everything so much more tangible. This is really a great asset for that team because they feel involved, they feel respected, and of course they understand the product owners thinking. Because at the end of the day, the team is implementing the product owners thinking. If they don't understand it, they can't do it. Yep, that's a great story. And I really like the little detail that the person came from the support organization because of course they already came with a lot of customer communication as experience, which is one of the key aspects of product ownership. Being able to talk to customers, understand what they're going through, understand the problems and the challenges they're facing.

[Simina Fodor]

Yeah, definitely. I think this was one of the things that greatly helped and it also shaped their personality and how they become a professional in the organization because they were already skilled in terms of communication, presentation and stuff like that. So it definitely helped.

[Mark]

Absolutely. Well, that was a great story. Thank you for sharing that. Simina. We're almost at the end, but before we go, before we go, pardon me, if people want to get in touch with you, maybe ask a few follow up questions, connect to you, where could they go?

[Simina Fodor]

Sure.

[Alex]

Well, I can Send over my LinkedIn.

[Simina Fodor]

Profile so you can include it in the show notes and currently I'm also.

[Alex]

Working on my own website.

[Simina Fodor]

It's called how to become a PM.com and I will be guiding future professionals. Basically, I'm really interested in people having a different experience than I had when I started out. So there are certain things that I wish I knew many, many moons ago.

[Alex]

So that is my overall goal for now. Just trying to teach other people the.

[Simina Fodor]

Things that I know and sharing some of the experiences that I have and tips and tricks. Basically not the things that you would find in books normally, but real practical experience. So they can find me on LinkedIn and on my own website.

[Mark]

And how to become a po.com and this is a trainer from Transylvania.

[Alex]

Yep.

[Mark]

So that's unique.

[Simina Fodor]

Extra benefit you might live longer.

[Mark]

Extra benefit, you might live a few hundred years. Simila, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for being with us this week and for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.

[Simina Fodor]

Well, my pleasure. It's definitely been an interesting experience and I look forward to connecting with other people as well.

[Host]

Hey friend, thank you for staying here. Is all you need to know about the Global Agile Summit. If you've ever suffered or know people who are suffering from Agile fatigue, this event is for you. Agile fatigue is that feeling that settles in when we can't really see a light at the end of the tunnel. We get discouraged. Especially when conversations revolve around the same old frameworks, the same old buzzwords and theories. We don't feel that energy anymore. Well, the Global Agile Summit is a different kind of event. We're bringing you real life first person stories of agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action and transform the way you work. The Global Agile Summit will happen In Tallinn, Estonia, May 18th. That's the workshop day. Then 19th and 20th, the conference day. And Talinestone is one of the most innovative tech hubs in Europe. The Global Agile Summit is hosted together with Latitude 59, which is kind of a citywide celebration of software startups and groundbreaking ideas. And we'll have a shared ticket for you to attend those events as well. So who will be speaking? Well, we've got an incredible lineup of thought leaders in software and agile. For example, Clinton Keith, the person who wrote literally wrote the book on game development with Scrum and is busy bringing agile to the world of game development. You must check his session. The very famous and well known Jurgen Apello, author of Management 3.0, will be talking and exploring about AI's impact on leadership. We also have Goiko Adsic, who's taking an unconventional look at product growth with his Lizard Optimization keynote. Other speakers include, for example Sig Sven Dietz, who's challenging everything we know about software development by ditching, literally ditching contracts and estimates. Can you imagine his teams deliver software before their competitors are even done with a contract negotiation? How agile is that? But there's more. We'll cover engineering practices in our developer track with talks on, for example, AI assisted test driven development, developing products in minutes with a different approach to how we develop, configure, deploy platforms and much more. We also have a product track where we cover cutting edge ideas around product discovery, delighting customers with product delight frameworks. We'll have a talk about that. And we also have an agile business track where we will talk about, for example, open strategy, a very agile approach to managing organizations and delivering software faster to clients faster than you can even write a contract.

[Mark]

Literally.

[Host]

I mean, I already told you about Svendeet's story is amazing. It definitely is a must see. I'm sure you'll be inspired and get a lot of ideas for your own software projects and software delivery. Now, whether you're a business leader, a product innovator or a developer, you'll definitely find value in our three focused tracks. That's Agile Business for those working with businesses and organizations, Agile Product for product managers, product owners and innovators, and Agile Developer for the builders making agile work in practice. The coders, the testers, the designers, the producers, the Scrum masters, you name it. If you join, you will meet over 200 agile professionals from all over the world. People who just like you, want to grow, want to share and want to learn by challenging the ideas that don't work anymore. At the Global Agile Summit. You'll get new connections, fresh ideas, and the energy to take your own Agile to the next level. And who knows, maybe even find your next career opportunity. So don't miss out. Check out the free full program and grab your ticket now@globalagile summit.com I'm really looking forward to seeing you all in Tallinn, Estonia in May.

[Mark]

I'll see you there.