Sean Carroll's Mindscape Ep. 340 | Rebecca Newberger Goldstein on What Matters and Why It Matters

Main Theme & Purpose

In this episode, Sean Carroll talks with philosopher and novelist Rebecca Newberger Goldstein about her life’s work on the concept of “mattering”—what it means to matter, why humans pursue it, and how it shapes our psychological well-being, morality, and societal divisions. The discussion centers on Goldstein’s new book, The Mattering Instinct: How What We Have in Common Drives Us and Divides Us, which analyzes the fundamental ways in which our need to matter defines both individual lives and collective conflicts.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining “Mattering” and Its Scope

• Mattering as Deserving Attention:
  Goldstein argues the core of “mattering” is “being deserving of attention” (11:20). This combines a normative (value-laden) sense with deep personal need.
• Personal vs. Social Mattering:
  Humans are unique in their “longing to be deserving of our own attention,” (18:36) not just the attention of others, highlighting the existential self-referentiality of mattering.
• Mattering and ‘Ground Projects’:
  Drawing from philosopher Bernard Williams, Goldstein describes “mattering projects” as the existentially charged endeavors that provide motivation and direction in a person’s life (12:09). Losing these projects can lead to profound depression or aimlessness, as exemplified by William James.

2. The Evolutionary and Biological Roots of Mattering

• Entropy and Life:
  Life is fundamentally a resistance to entropy (disorder):
  “To be alive is to be in resistance to the transformation from within, which is what entropy literally means.” (13:12)
• Self-Attention is Biological:
  Big brains, long childhoods, and social dependence lead humans to extraordinary self-attention and the drive for mattering (25:08).
• Theory of Mind & Counterfactual Thinking:
  Our abilities to imagine other minds and possible futures make mattering a “higher meta-level consideration” for humans compared to other animals (43:20).

3. The Forms and Failures of Mattering (“The Mattering Map”)

• Four Primary Strategies for Mattering (46:30, 71:57—see Goldstein’s “Mattering Map”):

  1. Transcendent Mattering (Cosmic/Religious):
     Belief in being intended by a higher power, “created for a purpose” (49:54).

  2. Social Mattering (Intimate/Non-Intimate Socializers):
     Attaining mattering by belonging to, or being valued by, others—either a close circle or a wider public (e.g., fame) (49:55).

  3. Heroic Striving:
     Pursuing mattering through excellence—intellectual, artistic, athletic, or ethical accomplishment, for its own sake rather than for others’ recognition (50:44).

  4. Competitive Mattering:
     Defining one’s worth in comparison or opposition to others, often in a zero-sum fashion—“mattering more than others” (50:46).

• Toxic and Universalizing Mattering:
  Problems arise when seeking mattering becomes pathological (e.g., needing to matter “more,” or insisting everyone share your mattering project) (59:57, 60:14).

• The Urge to Universalize:
  People often want their way of mattering to be the way:
  “We are trying to prove to ourselves that we objectively matter… If it really is objective, then it must be the fact of the matter, and so it must [be true for] everybody.” (63:10)

4. The Cultural and Moral Implications

• Mattering Across History and Politics:
  Differences in mattering projects explain everything from family dynamics to wars and genocides, highlighting both the nobility and danger of the instinct (65:05).
• Good vs. Bad Mattering Projects:
  Goldstein ties “good” mattering projects to counter-entropic forces: those that create order—knowledge, justice, beauty—while “bad” projects (e.g., conquest, manipulation) create suffering (66:18).
• The Dignity of Human Striving:
  Despite the violence and suffering this need can create, Goldstein emphasizes the inherent dignity in the human struggle to matter (76:14).

5. The Philosophical/Novelist Approach

• Goldstein’s writing—both analytic and fictional—springs from the need to “do justice to the complexity of being creatures of matter who long to matter” (74:47).
• Novel-writing, for her, became a tool to understand “the diversity of human stories and the way mattering plays out in it” (07:44).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On “Mattering” vs. Mere Attention

“To want to deserve our own attention. What depression is… is you can’t stand to live with yourself… you can’t stand it because you can’t be yourself without paying yourself all of this attention. And to feel unworthy of it is to not even want to continue on with one’s life."
— Rebecca Goldstein (18:36)

On the Roots and Uniqueness of Human Mattering

“We bring justification into the universe. We bring values into the universe in this effort. Sometimes very bad values, but nevertheless, no other creature is doing this, at least on our planet.”
— Rebecca Goldstein (09:56)

On the Social Implications & Failures of Mattering

“One of my favorite stories is about another Nobel laureate… X was happy for all of 15 minutes in his life when he got that call from Stockholm, and then he realized that other people have also gotten that call… Yes, that is a competitor.”
— Rebecca Goldstein (51:09)

On “Good” vs. “Bad” Mattering

“If your life is, the way you’re… is itself counter-entropic, if it creates things that demand otter [order], like knowledge, like justice, like beauty, like fairness… this is a good mattering project."
— Rebecca Goldstein (66:49)

On Tolerance and Diversity in Mattering

“How can we recognize that we’re not all alike without wanting to wring each other’s neck? That is the political problem of our time.”
— Rebecca Goldstein (76:56)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00] — Introduction; background on “Moving Naturalism Forward” symposium
• [05:13] — Goldstein introduces “mattering” as her life’s work
• [11:05] — Defining “mattering” as “deserving of attention”
• [13:12] — Entropy, resistance to disorder, biology’s role
• [18:36] — The existential burden of mattering; self-attention vs. attention from others
• [25:08] — Evolution of the social brain; origins of the word “matter”
• [31:05] — The William and Alice James case: belonging vs. existential mattering
• [41:14] — Entropy, survival, and Boltzmann’s legacy
• [46:30] — The four mattering strategies (“the mattering map”) introduced
• [59:57] — Toxic mattering and the urge to universalize
• [66:18] — Good vs. bad mattering in the context of ethics and entropy
• [68:14] — The “mattering map” as a conceptual metaphor
• [74:47] — Fiction-writing and the understanding of the “mattering instinct”
• [76:56] — Plurality in mattering and the political problem of difference

Conclusion: Takeaways for Listeners

• Mattering is a universal, deeply human drive, rooted in biology but uniquely shaped by our brains’ capacity for abstraction and self-reflection.
• The pursuit of mattering shapes morality, politics, personal well-being, and can explain both noble achievements and deep divisions.
• There is no single “right” way to matter, but there are clearly destructive and constructive forms.
• Understanding mattering—and respecting its diversity—may help us lower conflict and foster a more compassionate, pluralistic society.

This summary captures the essence, intellectual depth, and engaging style of Sean Carroll’s conversation with Rebecca Newberger Goldstein, providing a structured guide and valuable entry point for those unfamiliar with the episode.