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- [00:01]
A
This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Mint Mobile. Look, there are some things in life you definitely don't want to be transparent, like your swimsuit at a public pool or your 2am Internet search history. But when it comes to your wireless bill, transparency is everything. That's what's so great about Mint Mobile. They took everything wrong with the wireless industry and made it right by offering premium wireless for just 15 bucks a month. You get blazing fast data and unlimited talking text on the nation's largest 5G network. Plus, you can bring your current phone and keep your exact same number. You just choose a 3, 6 or 12 month plan online and finally say goodbye to that dread of a monthly bill. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month@mintmobile.com search that's it. There's no catch. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or 180 bucks for 12 months. Plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy and includes up to 20 gigabytes. Hotspot capable devices required. Availability, speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Chilipad. It is incredibly hot in Brooklyn right now, and so recently I've been sleeping on a Chilipad, which is wonderful. It means I don't just have a cool room, I have a cool bed, which turns out to be the whole thing. Most sleep problems are really temperature problems, and once you fix the temperature, a lot of the rest just quietly takes care of itself. Chilipad 2.0 by Sleep Me is their bed cooling system fully redesigned. Water runs through a pad that sits right on top of your mattress, nothing to replace, and holds your side of the bed anywhere from 55 to 115 degrees all night. They rethought all of it. The dock's quieter and needs refilling less. The COVID is waterproof and unzips so you can actually wash it. And there's a new nightstand remote that senses when you get in and just starts your sleep. No app. Visit www.sleepmesearch to get your Chilipad 2.0 and save up to $255 off with code search. This special offer is available for search engine listeners and only for a limited time. Order it today with free shipping and try it out for 30 days. You can return it for free. If you don't like it with their sleep trial, visit www.sleep s l e e p.me Search and calm your racing mind with Chilipad's cool sleep technology. You've searched for better sleep long enough. Try Chilipad 2.0 tonight. Hello, it is July at Search Engine, which means our team is out of office. For me personally, that means a month where I refuse to make any plan that was formed more than 24 hours in advance. My happiest space. We'll be back in August with new stories for you. In the meantime, we are airing some episodes that our free listeners have never heard, including this one. It first aired on Incognito Mode, our paid premium feed where we publish without ads and also publish extra episodes like this one, which I think about a lot. It's about the pursuit of excellence in domains that other people might overlook. And if you enjoy it, there are a bunch more episodes you've never heard. You just have to click the link to sign up in our show notes. It's $50 a year. That is the money we use to keep this show running. All right, enjoy. Sam. I had a mentor who said something to me once that really stuck. He was teaching me how to make podcasts. Something had gone wrong. I was beating myself up for it and he said to me, everything wants to suck. Like the natural orientation of everything is for it to be bad and if you're trying to make something good, you're just fighting against that. The whole time I thought that was true. It stuck with me. And now if I'm anywhere where something is excellent, I start to get curious like who is making this excellent? It wants to suck? Who is the person and what are the choices they're making to fight the natural orientation of the universe? There's a noodle shop I go to near our studio called Qian Famous Foods. That's not just a Bose. They are very famous here in New York. They have a few locations but they are superbly excellent. The noodles are glutinous, they're thick and ribbony. They're drenched in this spicy hot oil. I always eat too much. I go for the food. But I also go because while you're in the restaurant, the slightly hilarious thing is that you can feel the ghost of the person trying to make it perfect. There are these very prominent signs telling you how to eat or not eat the noodles so that you don't ruin the experience. My favorite one is posted by the cash register. It says in all caps. Are you sure you want to take those hand ripped noodles to go? They will not taste as good as fresh. Dine in noodles. We Allow takeout orders of our hand ripped noodle dishes due to popular demand. But please heed this warning. The noodles cool down within 15 minutes or less when it's cold out. As that happens, the sauces will soak into the noodles, causing them to bloat, lose their texture, flavor, and vibrance. The noodles may be reheated, but their original taste and chewiness will be gone. And then in all caps. So please eat the noodles right away if you're able to. Please have it in the store. Or at least take a quick bite from the takeout container to know how it is intended to taste. Or just come back another day when you can enjoy the noodles correctly. End quote. That is one of the signs. And the reason I love these signs is because when I read them, I know that there's someone who cares about something more than money. Like, there's a person who is willing to turn away customers if he thinks they will have a subpar experience of the excellence that he's trying to summit. Xi' An Famous Foods. I eat there once a week. This week I wanted to talk to the person running this empire of noodle shops and about how he built this, how he keeps things good, and how he fights the natural tendency of the universe for everything to suck. First off, can you introduce yourself?
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B
Yes. Thanks so much for the introduction, pj. My name is Jason Wang. I'm the CEO of Xian Famous Foods, the noodle shop in question. And so happy to be here with you.
- [06:17]
A
Did you personally write that sign?
- [06:19]
B
Oh, yes, yes. So when you were talking about the ghost, I was like, you know, I agree with that completely. It's like my aura all over all the noodle shops. And also, I don't know if you noticed, my sound system actually comes in and out. Sometimes I will start talking on there and say, like, did you know that you could get your something, something kind of like the subway system where people are announcing things? And I was like, yeah, it's not just the visuals, but also the creepy audio that comes in at you. So when you were like the spirit of the person that is running the show here, I was like, yeah, that's a great description.
- [06:50]
A
Do you consider yourself at all a bit of a control freak?
- [06:53]
B
I'm definitely a control freak.
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A
And is that in the shop? Is that in your life? Like, in what way?
- [06:59]
B
I think it's in my life. And that of course extends into the shops, into the business. It just can't be helped. Yeah, for better, for worse.
- [07:06]
A
So the way this is going to go I want to do like the backstory of you and these noodles about what it was like to build the business. And then I want to go into like current day.
- [07:16]
B
Sure. Well, rewinding all the way back. I was born in China. I was born in Xi', an, went to school there, immigrated to the US in all over the us not just New York, places like Michigan and places like Connecticut.
- [07:28]
A
Why were you moving around so much?
- [07:30]
B
It's mostly because I kind of followed wherever my father goes for work and he worked in, you know, restaurants. So basically I was following wherever he's going, wherever the opportunity is. So over a decade of that. So that was my upbringing kind of just all over the States, finally settling in New York towards the end of my high school career. So. Yeah.
- [07:50]
A
And what's Xi'? An? What is the place like? Like, is it a big city, small town?
- [07:55]
B
Yeah. It's not a huge city like Shanghai or like Guangzhou or Shenzhen. Those are probably the biggest cities in China, the coastal cities, Beijing, of course, but Xi' an is more inland. Xi' an is in literally the middle of the current China geography. But it used to be the center of trade for imperial and ancient China, being the starting point of the Silk Road. So it has a lot of history there. 13 Dynast had their capital there. It was more lush, I believe as well in the older days. Then there was a bit of a change in climate and it got more arid. It's drier now, it's more dusty. So it's kind of faded in a way. But nowadays experiencing such a rejuvenation of people wanting to visit there. Like when I first came to the U.S. i was like, oh my gosh, what is a supermarket?
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A
Right?
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B
We didn't have supermarkets back then. We had like department stores. We had like, you buy your groceries on the streets, on stands, like vegetable stands, or you go to the butcher for your meat. But now it's changed. So in China, you could go to any supermarkets in Xi', an, and then you don't have to pay with your wallet or your phone even. You just scan your face. So just kind of contrast as to how far we've came from that dusty little city to a city that's kind of catching up with modern China.
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A
And what were your days like there as a kid when you were still there?
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B
The only things I remember was being forced to play piano. And you know, because my father bought a piano and it was very expensive at that time, both budget wise and objectively speaking. So he's like, yeah, he has to Learn this. Right. So I was sort forced into it and I did not like it. So that was a lot of my childhood memories, unfortunately, was that and also just a lot of studying. School was very competitive. I had to get like 95% or higher on all midterms and finals. Otherwise, it's like considered failure just because it's so competitive.
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A
Yeah. And was food in general a big part of your family life back there?
- [09:48]
B
It was definitely a big part of my family life. My dad would always cook. I know my grandfather cooked. They cooked different things, of course. But for me, it's. I have to admit, as I was growing up, I hated food really, because I just did not like eating. I was super skinny and I had to be chased down to be fed. I remember one thing I really hated was Yang Ro Palma, which is basically a lamb soup with sliced boiled lamb. And the special thing about it is you would take a piece of bread, like a hard flatbread in China, you would break it up yourself with your hands, you throw it into the bowl, and in the shop or if you're at home, you would boil the bread in the soup, making it sort of like a puffy type of bread soup almost. It's not really a soup anymore. It's kind of like a whole heavy meal from that. And I really hated that dish as a kid because it was so heavy. And then I just remember we had lunch hour. We go home during lunch. In elementary school back then, I would go home and my grandfather would have a bowl of that ready for me. And I was like, this is a lot of food. I can't eat this. And I would just be watching like the Lion King or something and then eating it. And it would just get cold and the oil will get hardened and it will stick to the top of my mouth. And it was just disgusting. So in China, I didn't appreciate it. But once I left that environment, going into small town usa, I found out, wow, there's no lamb. Back then, I couldn't even find it in the supermarket. And all the condiments I'm used to, all the spices are not around. So I started missing those things I ran away from. So food has changed its identity in my head over the years.
- [11:19]
A
What year did you move to America?
- [11:21]
B
1997. 98. Around those.
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A
And where was the first place your family went to when you got there?
- [11:27]
B
Yeah, so I moved into a small town in the Midwest. I think that was also very important because if I ended up in New York, I think it would have been different. My Family is actually very small. Most of my family is still in China. And I think in the first couple of years of being in the US There was some points where I was like, I'm not learning English fast enough. I'm always in this ESL type of situation. Even though the school is so small, they didn't really have an ESL program. But I was always kind of segregated, like, oh, yeah, he doesn't speak English yet, so let's not have him take the regular test. The kids usually take, like, spelling tests and things like that. So it just felt like this is not somewhere I could be long term. And that homesickness, along with everything else, whether it's food every day or whether it's. Sorry to jump around, but, like, food wise. I used to hate the smell of pizza, and I used to hate the smell of pickles, like the dill flavor. But I love those now.
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A
But it was like they were just, like, unfamiliar. Like, very unfamiliar.
- [12:22]
B
We didn't use dill. We never used any of those spices. I mean, now pizza's all over China. But back then, we didn't have pizza. There's no Pizza Hut. There's no.
- [12:29]
A
So what did it smell like to your nose when you smelled pizza?
- [12:32]
B
It smelled like puke. It smelled like puke. It was because of the. I think it was because of the sauce, the onion combination with. Whether it's oregano or basil. When I walked in that Pizza Hut one day, you know, a small town, you know, that's what they had. And I was like, I can't stay in here. This. I can't stand the smell.
- [12:47]
A
Yeah. I think it's a really relatable thing, like the food of another culture that you haven't been exposed to. Particularly, like a food with a strong flavor or smell, it's, like, alienating. It's a weird feeling. It's just so. It's so interesting to me hearing you describe Pizza Hut that way. Cause obviously for me, it's like, that's like such a food that I was socialized early to be used to.
- [13:05]
B
It's standard. I mean, now I can't even think back why it was so weird to me. But that was just the different physical state I was in, I guess. But now it's definitely a part of my weekly, I would say, diet.
- [13:18]
A
Why is Yan food so hard to find in the US in general?
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B
Historically, in the US when you think about immigration from China, where are they coming from? China's a big country. Right. But people are coming from the southeast region initially, Right. People that came to build the railroads, for example, people that settle in Chinatown, they're from the southeast, so they're going to bring the culture, the language. A lot of the Chinese dishes that we know of, like egg fu yang, is not really Chinese, but even the wording of it is not like Mandarin. It's more like closer to Cantonese. Right. And that is because the first wave immigrants, whether they just made that dish up, it's still in their language. Right. It's their dialect. So that is sort of why the fixation of what Chinese people eat in the US the understanding was that it's like dim sum, or it's like more Cantonese food, you know, more seafood focused, lighter flavors, not necessarily spicy. And that was kind of the framework until maybe later in the 20th century. Then more immigrants came over from, say, like Shanghai, from Sichuan, and also, of course, Taiwan. Right. Taiwan is actually a melting pot of Chinese cuisine because of historically, during the revolution, during the Civil war, a lot of people settled from all parts of mainland China into Taiwan, bringing their different cultures, different foods. So anyways, getting back to your question. Sorry, I go on tangent. You got to stop.
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A
It's like food travels with immigration patterns. And what you're describing is like the waves of, like, people from different parts of China bringing different kinds of cuisines.
- [14:53]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And kind of getting back on track here is big. There's never been a big wave of people from Xi', an, is my point. There's been waves of people from various parts that are closer to the ocean. Right. It's a little easier to get to the US Xi', An's like, landlocked. It's way in there. And our drive was really just, we want something to serve to people that are like us. Serve folks from our region. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [15:17]
A
So, okay, so to go about you, you moved to America, your dad's working in restaurants. Can you just describe for me, like, what does that look like? Like, what type of restaurants, what type of jobs, for how long? Like, what did it look, your dad, to be working in restaurants then?
- [15:29]
B
So what I observed was I was mostly elementary, middle school, and some of high school. I'm usually at home, like, by myself for a few days of the week until he gets off. He comes over and he cooks some food for me so that I could have for a few more days, and then he's off to work again. Usually the work would involve working restaurants that are out of state. Opportunities are not always local. I remember him just having a bunch of newspapers looking through and making calls to ask like, hey, you know, what do you need? Who do you need? What is the pay? What is the responsibilities? And how soon do you need someone? He'd make a lot of those phone calls. He would have, like sprawling a bunch of newspapers on the floor and send his underwear just making these calls, right? And then it could be something like, oh, we need someone right now. I need you to be here today. So then you would basically have to catch the next Greyhound or something. Or when we had a card, he would drive over immediately. I know that there was one time in Connecticut, someone needed a dishwasher because it was like holiday season and they were really busy. I think it was like a buffet restaurant. So they had a lot of dishes piling up. They needed someone right away. And then they're like, okay, we'll double your pay to like, it was like 200, which is a lot back then, right? If you were to come in right now and to wash all these dishes, right? And so he drove on Blizzard to get to this place, and I think it was like a three, four hour drive. Got there and there's like a mountain of dishes waiting to be washed. And he washed those and then he got paid. And then he couldn't even. I mean, it was not a lot of money to count, but still, like, he couldn't even count, his fingers are so stiff from washing. And then he drove back on Blizzard and all that. So those were like more of the extreme gigs. Other gigs I remember, like in Jersey, I remember actually going over to like Cape May, for example. There was a restaurant over there and I kind of tagged along once because the owner had a house where all the employees were staying and he had a kid. So I was hanging out with his kid. It was sort of like a mini vacation while my father's working for the restaurant. So that's usually the arrangement. And once you get your first gig, I think you know where to find the next gig. And restaurants are networked as well, so they will know whoever hired you for this restaurant may be able to introduce you to another one, et cetera. So it's a very interesting system.
- [17:39]
A
And why is it so, like, freelance? Like, why isn't it just places hire you and you work at one restaurant for a long time?
- [17:45]
B
Everything's very seasonal, I think, and business is a little unpredictable. And honestly, people change, like, in terms of what they want. The instability, I think, of the immigrant working population is because they have instability in their lives, right? They don't know if they're going to be in this country for that long. A lot of folks are in the country to make money, to support family back home. They're just looking to stay a few months, do some work, and then take money back. The exchange rate makes it worthwhile to make that trip, and that's why there's so much temporary type of gigs.
- [18:21]
A
Got it. So it wasn't like a feature of the way your dad was working or something? It's like that was just how people worked. It was a highly dynamic, highly temporary kind of.
- [18:31]
B
Yeah, I would say the turnover is not great in restaurant industry in general. For Chinese restaurant, it's the same, maybe even more extreme, I have to admit. I think, you know, my father definitely has a personality as well. So he doesn't always get along with other people.
- [18:44]
A
What's his personality like?
- [18:45]
B
His personality is one that will always fight with me and vice versa as well. Or it could even be something as simple as, like, he didn't like the way I talk to him. More like personal. And that bleeds into business, and sometimes that becomes an issue as well. So he's, you know, he's a sensitive guy. And I think that back then when he worked for people with some bosses he vibed with that he got along with, but there's other people that he just did not agree with, and he just basically left. So.
- [19:13]
A
Yeah, you're almost describing somebody who sounds at least halfway like an artist.
- [19:17]
B
Yeah, yeah, you could say he's an artist. You know, he's definitely more eccentric. Definitely passionate. Definitely passionate, I would say. And I think it takes a little bit of crazy to really survive in this industry.
- [19:29]
A
How did your dad decide to go from working in other people's restaurants to starting his own thing?
- [19:34]
B
You know, my father, he's always been very passionate about food that we eat from Xi'. An. That's always been in the back of his mind, I think, even when he worked for other restaurants, whether it's like a sushi place or a buffet. But his real passion has always been with our own cuisine. And right before, when we started, which was 2005, there's nothing like it. I dare say right now, there's still not that much around the country. Right. So I think the leap of faith into doing something that he's always wanted to do, like, meaning serve our own food, came when I graduated from high school. Once I graduated from high school, I went on my own path. He feels like he doesn't need to have a safety net anymore to make sure I'm taken care of. So he's like, okay, I could go on a limb and actually do something I always wanted to do. Starting from nothing huge. It's not like he put in so much money into such a huge restaurant. It was actually just a stall in the basement food court and flushing Queen.
- [20:33]
A
So how do you describe as Xi' an cuisine, by the way? Like, how do you explain to people who are unfamiliar with that?
- [20:38]
B
So as Xi' an cuisine, there's a lot of different dishes, but overall, the flavor profile is spicy and sour.
- [20:44]
A
Yeah.
- [20:45]
B
Or fragrantly spicy. Xiang La. So sour, like, from vinegar. It's quite prevalent in a lot of our dishes. And fragrantly spicy means, like, in contrast with, say, Sichuan cuisine, where it's, like, spicy, tingly, and could be really fiery. Our cuisine tops out because the peppers are very red, they're very fragrant, they smell very good. They're not super spicy.
- [21:09]
A
I find it to be, like. Almost like. Like my spice tolerance, I guess, has gotten higher just living in New York. But it's like you don't feel like you're masochistically proving something, but it's spicy enough that you have an almost like. I don't know. It's funny. I always joke about this, but it's like a slightly druggish experience almost. There's kind of like a mild. Like, when I'm eating the noodles, like, my head does something strange. Like, it's like 1% psychedelics. Yeah.
- [21:37]
B
They call it crack noodles. Right. And I was like, okay, all right. I like that comparison. But, you know, hopefully this is healthier. But for people who have had the spice, it becomes addicting in some ways.
- [21:48]
A
It's very addicting.
- [21:48]
B
Yeah. And it becomes, like, part of what you have to have. So that's the dominant flavors. And of course, there's other dishes, like our flatbread buns. That's going to be more about the spices. So spices meaning things like cumin, cardamom, all sorts of spices are not native to China, but from India, maybe from more West. And that's really because of how the cuisine was influenced over the centuries, because of the Silk Road.
- [22:13]
A
So, okay, so to go back, your dad opened, like, a boba stall. He opens a stall selling what, noodles?
- [22:19]
B
He sold bubble tea. He was like, okay, I do want to sell my food, but I also don't want to go broke if it's a failure. So he wanted to hedge it a little bit by selling bubble tea, because he's like, bubble tea is just water and flavoring. That's all there is. Tapioca. That's it. And it should be hard to fail at that. So he got the franchise and he sold food on the side. He's like, oh, I have some food if you want some too. And those would be the anpi kohl skin noodles, the burgers, and a little bit of the pulled noodles. But more and more as he operated the business, people, yeah, they're buying the bubble tea, but more people were interested in the food. So the bubble tea actually got dwarfed after a little while by the food. So then he was like, well, why am I selling bubble tea? Why not just focus on the food at this point? It feels right at that point. So that's when he moved into the Golden Shopping Mall.
- [23:06]
A
And can you just describe? Because I feel like if someone hasn't visited, they're gonna picture the wrong thing. It's not a random American shopping mall with a food court with like a Taco Bell and like a whatever. Like, how do you describe this experience that somebody would have? What happens when you walk in there?
- [23:19]
B
Golden Shopping Mall was a literal basement. You walk down the stairs and then everything's in Chinese. There are different stalls that don't have AC and don't have. I could say this now because we're not there anymore. Doesn't have a proper exhaust system. So somehow, you know, fire department never raised issue with it. But that's all said and done, right? It's all in the past. And very close proximity, you know, really just a three foot wide corridor. The bare minimum for people to walk down and just stall after stall. You got food from the southeast China, food from northeast. You got food from our place, like in the center, considered northwest China and all Chinese menus. And the place is hot in the summer, cold in winter. People hawking a little bit as well in terms of if someone were to walk down with a group, they'll be like, yeah, come eat here instead of over there. That was the vibe.
- [24:16]
A
Is it a hard place? Because I've been there, the food is delicious. You feel like you can sit down anywhere and have something special. But from the side of selling food in that environment, it seems highly competitive, very competitive.
- [24:27]
B
Gotta admit, we weren't best of friends. I like. People think if a stall across from you sees that you're getting a lot of customers, they're gonna bang their noodles a little harder, a little louder to get the attention. There's been fights over napkin use as well. A lot of customers that go down there, they think everyone's free for all. Like, I could sit here and eat their food. I could, you know, like, customers don't know, right? They're just there to eat. But the politics of it, it's more like, oh, well, your customer is eating more of your food, so don't take my napkins.
- [24:56]
A
Right?
- [24:56]
B
So there's been a couple of punches thrown because of that, you know, and a couple apologies issued and, you know, I won't go into details, but yeah, I had to call the cops on behalf of my dad once for that. When the cops got there, they were just, like, confused. Like, what is going on here? Why are we called to this place? Let's just shake and make up. You know, it's like, this is over napkins and everyone's speaking Chinese and I'm the only one speaking English trying to translate. All the customers are, like, watching what's going on. It was quite weird. And, you know, it's kind of a hard thing to tell friends. Like, what did you do today for work? Oh, you know, I had to break up a fight over napkins, you know, so good times.
- [25:33]
A
We're going to take a short break. When we return, a tiny noodle shop becomes very improbably internationally famous. This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Snapple. Hey, before we jump back into the show, let's take a quick break. But not just any break. This is a refreshing break with Snapple. We all know about Snapple's iconic real facts, so let's take a moment to go over some of my faves. Snapple RealFact 1361. A nun held one of the first PhDs in computer science. Snapple RealFact 1643. The first search engine's name is Archie Snapple RealFact 1517. In New York, it is illegal to sell a haunted house without telling the buyer. Snapple RealFact 1228. Chimps can develop their own fashion trends. So grab a Snapple, take a second, enjoy the moment, because let's be honest, this might be the most refreshing part of your day. Snapple, make your break more interesting. All right, now let's get back to the show. This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by LinkedIn Talent Solutions. Running a small business means every hire matters. Bad hire can cost you time, money and momentum. A good hire, they can help grow your business. But finding great talent isn't easy, especially when you don't have the time or resources to sift through piles of resumes to find the right fit. That's why LinkedIn built Hiring Pro, your new hiring partner. That screens candidates for you. So instead of sorting through applications, you spend your time talking to candidates who are actually good. Making a good hire is always important. It's especially important if you have a very small business like search engine. With hiring pro, you can hire with confidence, knowing you're getting the best talent for your business. In fact, Those hiring with LinkedIn are 24% less likely to need to reopen a role within 12 months compared to the leading competitor. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire. Get started by posting your job for free@LinkedIn.com pjsearch. Terms and conditions apply. Welcome back to the show.
- [27:43]
B
So the fame kind of started locally with the Chinese immigrant population. Whether it's Chinese newspapers or whether it's the Sinovision, which is like the Chinese news TV here in New York, they did a bunch of reports. Lines were down the corridor of the food court, up the stairs, out around the corner of Main street and 41st Road. Basically, there were a lot of people interested in the food coming from out of state. And there were chowhounds from back then when chowhounds was a forum.
- [28:12]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [28:13]
B
Remember that?
- [28:13]
A
Yeah.
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B
Remember that? So I monitor all that because I made the website so, like, I would see where they're coming from. I would see the people are so interested. They would take pictures of the menu in Chinese and then have someone else translate it and then share it.
- [28:24]
A
One of the moments that I know is like a big moment in the story of what you guys built was Anthony Bourdain comes to eat Queens.
- [28:32]
B
One minute you're in some stereotypical idea of why it is that you do. You don't live in Queens, but the next, you're not even in America.
- [28:42]
A
Were you there when that happened? Like, were you working with your dad at that point?
- [28:45]
B
I was not. Yet. The first time he came was for no reservations, and that was in 2007.
- [28:51]
A
How did he find it?
- [28:52]
B
He didn't find our stall. He found the Golden Shopping Mall. To the Golden Shopping Mall, a warren of vendors selling all sorts of mysterious and tasty specialties from all across China. So it was a hub. He went there for the mall with all these different cuisines. Our stall became sort of the hit because he specifically, when he was sitting in our stall having our food, said, this place is unbelievable. This place is great. I've never had anything like this before. I mean, I've tasted these flavors, but I've never had this within the framework of Chinese with that mix. This is really great. Yeah, I Can see even this is something that I haven't tasted in Chinese cuisine. And I think that really boosted us in terms of bringing us into the spotlight for non Chinese speaking diners.
- [29:41]
A
So it's basically like the food court was like the scene. And you guys ended up being partly like the star of that scene. Did your dad understand there's some guy with a film crew? Like, what that meant?
- [29:51]
B
At first, my dad didn't know who he was. My dad did know because of the entourage that he had. This must be somewhat important. And because some other diners that were there were like, oh, boss, you're gonna be famous now. Because they know who he is, right? And so my dad sent me a picture that he snapped while they were filming, which was a no, no, you know, because it was flash. He didn't know. He was just, I need to snap, like a Sony point and shoot that he had, using that to take menu photos usually. But he sent it to me. He's like, who is this guy? He seems really famous. I didn't recognize him either because I didn't really watch TV at that point. I was never in the common room of our living dorms, so that's where the TV is. And I show my suite mates. I was like, who is this? And they told me, I was like, oh, dude, we watch him all the time on tv. I was like, wait, is he the bald guy? Meaning Andrew Zimmer? No, he's not the bald guy. He's the other guy. I was like, oh, Anthony Bourdain. Okay, so, yeah, that was that.
- [30:47]
A
So how did your dad get out of there? Like, how did he get out of the food court?
- [30:52]
B
He got out because I got back in New York.
- [30:54]
A
What happened?
- [30:55]
B
So I was on my own track. I studied finance, marketing in college. I went to Washu and St Louis and I was supposed to do work on my own, but I always had this, like, itch for the business because I always helped out during breaks throughout college and I helped make the website, helped translate the menu, and just help a little bit from afar, right? And after I graduated, I worked a stint in Minneapolis for Target Corporation and was in the best at what I did. Let's just say I was really not in it. My heart was not in it. Now looking back, so at one point I was just like, you know, this is not really for me and I have to really find my own path. And luckily at that time, I got fired. It worked out, you know, I was like, oh, okay, all right. Obviously, it was a hit to my Ego, Right. No one likes being fired, but, you know, I think it takes that type of experience to experience something like that in order to kind of refocus a little bit. Things are not always going to go as expected. And one door closes, one door opens. So at that time, I called my dad. I was like, hey, honestly, not because I got fired, but I always wanted to do something with this business. I think it has a lot of potential if we don't do something with it. If you just stay in the stall and flushing someone else is just going to capitalize on your fame and your idea. So I just. I drove all the way back from Minneapolis with all my belongings in my sedan and fell asleep in the McDonald's parking lot. Drove back in a couple days. And then next day, my dad was like, okay, you can rest for a day, and the next day you're going to work, right? So doing the basics. Can't do anything at that point. Have no food experience. So I just took out the trash, you know, helped clean, make some simple dishes.
- [32:24]
A
Did it feel humbling?
- [32:25]
B
Yeah, very humbling. Because, you know, the thing is, Washu is considered a pretty good school, so. And during school, I was always like, I got this on my SATs, and I went to this school. And, you know, your academics become a bragging point. And, you know, at that point, I was also dating someone from college. And a part of. When we were first going out, it was like talking about. She was like, always impressed. Oh, you have this internship at Yahoo. You have the internship at Wells Fargo. It's like, yeah, you're so on track with everything, Jason. You know, and my friends who are in the city after graduation, some of them are going to medical school, some of them are going to graduate school, MBA programs. Some of them are working. They would come after work, some in their scrubs, some of them in their suits, and they would visit me, and I'm cashiering at this restaurant. It's definitely a big hit. When it was like, oh, shoot, I'm working in my dad's stall in a basement. But it's humbling because at the end of the day, it took a lot of heart to know that this is going somewhere to continue day after day. The days weren't easy. Like, they weren't like, oh, yeah, I'll just do a lunch shift and I'll go home. No. It was morning till close when we started expanding out of the basement food court. I had to drive our employees to the first Lower east side Chinatown location, like, under the bridge. This was 2010. I drove them in the morning. We drop off stuff from my trunk, like the food supplies. They go in, start the store, I go park and then I come back. I open the store, I cashier, I make the food all the way until close, close the store. They come back in my car, I drive them back to we all lived in Flushing. I drive them in flush, drop them off at their homes and then I go home. I maybe eat my first meal of the day because there's no time to eat when you're working and you're not supposed to eat in the kitchen per DoH regulations. But you don't feel hungry because you're on your feet the whole day. So anyways, that was like the life. So everything was kind of hard. But what kept me going was like this is going somewhere. This is something that I could feel. Not to glorify day to day grind. But I think I'm really proud of those years because I think that usually that leads to something. You know, it takes a lot of heart.
- [34:29]
A
Once you go home and you're helping the restaurant, you're doing like the rote sort of grindy stuff. But like you were also coming to it with expertise in finance and marketing. Like how did the business start to evolve when you joined the business? What was the thing that you were starting to do to try to make it more than what it was?
- [34:50]
B
Yeah. First I can definitely say being school educated does not mean you are ready to run a business in retrospect. Right. So being school educated, I think it helps to give you the mindset to approach problems, not that you'll have answers in your hands ready to go. That comes from experience, I think. And over the years it's still a learning experience. I'm still learning to this day because things change. Your business changes. You need different things over time. So it's always evolving. And I think as a good business leader or owner operator, you have to adapt at that point. I think the low hanging fruits were simple things such as introducing a POS system because I made websites so I know computers a little bit back then. And we had a box with a green button on it that opens and you click the green button and that's it. That has cash in it. There's no cars or anything. And my father's not the most computer savvy person, so that's all he used, that's all he needed. He'd do calculations in his head. Taxes were included back then so you don't have to add on the 8.8, 7, 5%. So, you know, that's how we work. We remember people by their faces. Oh, yeah, that tall guy, the short guy. Oh, that lady there, the guy with the kid. That's how we remembered the orders and calculated the orders and charged them. So that's a little hanging fruit. That was like the best thing I did in the first year. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm so cool now. I contributed so much, but there's so much more than that.
- [36:15]
A
And at what point did you go, like, stall to restaurant to restaurants? Plural? When do those things happen?
- [36:21]
B
Yeah. So as soon as I got back, my father already signed two new locations in anticipation of me coming back. So the pressure was really on. I remember getting back and having to just draw the kitchen plan for that under the bridge location within, like, the first month. I didn't know what the heck is going on, but just trying to figure it out. So multiple locations came as soon as I came back. But the first location, that was actually like my own location that I scouted personally, that I opened personally from start to finish, like, talking to the landlord. Everything was our east village location on St. Mark's and that was a location I worked at pretty much every day for at least a year. And that's where I learned the most about the business.
- [37:07]
A
And what did you learn in that location?
- [37:10]
B
Learned every dish, learned how to open, close, everything. Learned how to talk to people. That was when I came out of my shelf. I'm actually a pretty shy person back then. I'm more. I wouldn't say bookish, but, you know, I'm not known for being very outgoing and charismatic in terms of talking with strangers, maybe people I know. But when you're a cashier and you're meeting hundreds of people a day and there are nice people and they're going to be difficult people, you have to be able to deal with all of them. And that was a great training ground for me back then. And of course, the kitchen side, working with employees, that was when I actually hired people. And at that point, it was like, we can't hire people who are only Chinese speaking. We need people who can speak English as well. So it really became sort of critical for me to expand from just the Chinatown business to a New York business.
- [37:57]
A
And what about at that point, working with your dad? Like, how. How was that? It seems. I love my dad. It seems really hard to imagine.
- [38:07]
B
Yeah, no, it's. It's stressful. A lot of arguments. I don't even remember anymore because there are so Many. There were multiple times that I called my good friend, and I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. He wants to do stuff on his own. Sometimes he's like, I don't need you. Even though, like, I know that's not true. He's just saying out of anger. There's a lot of stuff he does I can't do. There's a lot of stuff I do that he can't do.
- [38:26]
A
Yeah.
- [38:26]
B
And we have these fights the time. It's not easy. We don't have meetings together with our staff, because every time we are in the same meeting, we will fight and everyone else will feel awkward, and we get pretty, like, to the point where everyone else is silent, so we want to save them of that. It's a little inefficient to have two meetings, separate meetings with our staff, but that's how we do it right now. But for me, it's the thing that keeps pulling me back. At the beginning, it was a point of pride. Right. It's like, I don't want to fail again. But nowadays, if you're saying, like, why do I keep going? It's because we already built something for our guests. We build something for our staff that we can't just simply exit out of. That's something that keeps pulling me back. So, yeah.
- [39:10]
A
And what year did you guys really start to expand? Expand?
- [39:15]
B
I would say right before the couple years before the pandemic, we were really starting to expand.
- [39:20]
A
You were doing it right before the pandemic?
- [39:23]
B
We were starting to expand two, three years before the pandemic.
- [39:26]
A
Was that bad? I mean, was just a pandemic.
- [39:28]
B
The pandemic froze everything, of course. Right. Like, everything kind of crashed down. We had to lay off pretty much everyone at that point, and it was really scary. But the faith in the brand always remained because even when we're all closed, people are still emailing us like, hey, we're in lockdown right now, but we could really use some of your chili oil, for example. So, you know, we started shipping stuff. I started delivering meal kits locally using some sort of app that routes all the stops. It was cool because there was no traffic in New York, and I would just drive around and drop off stuff and actually meeting the customers face to face during the pandemic. Outside, of course. But it was pretty cool. But nowadays, I would say that our expansion has really sped up in the recent times.
- [40:09]
A
How many stores is there?
- [40:10]
B
We're 25 right now.
- [40:11]
A
I mean, part of the reason I wanted to talk to You. There's places I go where I like the food, where I'm not as curious about why the food's good. I think, like, I'm not an expert on food. I eat it. And one of the things that I've noticed is that I'll love a place they'll start to expand and, like, they'll stay good enough that people will keep coming, but they'll lose something. You know, it's like, it's hard to make anything good. It's super hard to teach other people how to make things good to the same standard. You guys seem to have really done that in a way that feels really rare. Like, what do you think you learned learning how to?
- [40:46]
B
I mean, first of all, it's very hard to. All the business that have expanded, it's not for lack of trying. I would say it's just because it really is hard. As a food business, our food is not cooked by robots. Our food is cooked by humans. And the more artisanal the food is, rather than just like something that's pre made, you heat it up and you just pack it together. If it's any sort of labor, any sort of technique that goes into it, like pulling noodles or cooking our lamb, things like that, mistakes will be made. We've made mistakes since day one. We still make mistakes, and we've made compromises that I think a lot of people are not super happy about. We had to cut down some of our dishes over the years, especially during the pandemic. The lamb palmo soup, that bread soup that I told you about, A lot of our Chinese customers really miss that soup. They're, like, up on Red Note, basically messaging, like, why'd you get rid of that? Bring that back? I petitioned to get it back. And then others, folks that are into noodles, they're like, why don't you serve the oxtail noodles anymore? It was so good. And I really do miss that dish myself. So with expansion, there are things we have to give up in terms of, like, some things are just very labor intensive that are not operationally efficient. One dish could delay a whole line in terms of, like, efficiencies in the kitchens. And if it's very different from other dishes, it has to be 86 for the time being. We do want to bring things back as specials every now and then, but I think that's an important part of, like, an expanding restaurant is the efficiency. But sometimes there's something's lost.
- [42:17]
A
So it's like doing less to make sure that you can do what you're
- [42:20]
B
doing well and efficiently, being cognizant of our limitations. We can't do everything. Even if you go to Xi', an, there are restaurants that only serve palm oil. That's the only thing they serve. And they do it very well. They're famous for it. And there are restaurants that only serve noodles or only serve lianpi. I aspire to move more towards that direction rather than be a jack of all trades. Because we're human. We can't do everything, and there's going to be more errors. But of course, if we're able to, you know, better ourselves in the future, I can always bring it back.
- [42:47]
A
I get the sense from the signage in the restaurant, if nothing else, that you are not super into delivery. But you guys do delivery. It's weird when I order delivery from you, I feel like I'm like, pirating music or something. Like, why did you start doing it despite your reservations?
- [43:02]
B
I think the big answer is Covid. And it's not because Covid was draining us of sales. Of course, it had a big financial impact on our sales, but it was more so that Covid itself changed consumer behavior and expectations. And like, if you were a person back before the pandemic that never ordered takeout, you might feel like, well, my expectations for this noodle is to arrive exactly like it would in the stores. Right. So, like, it was almost sort of like a education by ordering, because more people ordered food than they would normally. And because of that, there's more understanding that food is not going to be 100% when it's delivered. So that was our biggest concern. We were worried. We still are worried about our food being misrepresented. Because if it's your first time having sham famous foods, you get it delivered. Noodles come in, they're tasteless, they're soggy, they're clump. And that's your impression of sham famous foods. We can't have that. Right. But we still take measures to mitigate that. We limit our radius to, I think in the city, we have six or seven minutes delivery by bike. Outside of New York City, it's seven minutes by car. And that's as far as we will go. We're not gonna go beyond that.
- [44:12]
A
That.
- [44:13]
B
Some people are not happy about that either. They're like, why is your radius so small? But that's really why. So that works for us. We're also developed ways to separate the sauces, the noodles, to give it a few more minutes of life so you could put it together. We developed a video guide as to how to put it together. All these measures just to make sure that you have a decent first experience.
- [44:34]
A
Jason's very, very cautious embrace of delivery has now extended to some cities outside New York. In some of these places, he's experimented with ghost kitchens delivery only tiny outposts, just to test whether he can pull off good delivery elsewhere. The plan is, if it works, to expand in those cities to normal four wall stores. But if you live in a place right now like dc, you might see one of these ghost kitchens. They are Jason's begrudging compromise with the post Covid reality of most restaurant experiences now being delivery. Although even now in his restaurants, he still tries to push people towards just eating the noodles there. And what does it feel like for you when you think about somebody having the wrong. Like, the customer experience is the. It's like the final step in a process you're trying to create. And it's the part where you lose total control. Like, you can't. If someone's gonna sit there at the table and let the noodles get cold, you, like, can't legally stop them, right? When you picture someone having a bad experience, what is the feeling you have?
- [45:38]
B
Have it. It just feels like I. I feel bad that they are missing out on what could be a good experience. Right. In a way where. So that's why I'm like, I want to throw all these signs up, because I want to prevent you from walking down the wrong path, so to speak. And that's where the control freak comes in. You know, I can't take your hands and force you. Every customer might think I talk too much when they order something. They're like, oh, but I'm gonna take it home. I'm like, how far is your home? And she', oh, you know, it's like an hour, but, oh, that's no good. It's not that good after an hour. Do you want to just have a little bit here? She's like, oh, no, is it not going to be good? What if I separate it? I was like, I could separate for you, but it only gives you like 10 or 15 more minutes than usual. And she'd be like, oh, I didn't know about that. And I'm like holding up the line and I'm talking too much. But that's like the control freak of me. I'm just like, I want to make sure you understand, like, you're missing out if you're not having it it right away. So I was like, just have a bite. Will you have a bite for me? And she's like, okay. Another person will be like, oh, I want the cold noodles, but you want the sauce mix or together? And then she'll be like, oh, mix is okay. I was like, you're eating in 15 minutes, right? She's like, oh, yeah, yeah. I'm just around the corner. I'm like, okay, good. So that's. Yeah. You know, you can't force people, but I think in a way where you let them know the information, make the right choices, that's all we can do.
- [46:59]
A
It doesn't seem like the way you choose to run your business is totally moment to moment, profit maximizing. Like, you could have a wider delivery radius. You could open more stores less carefully. You could, like.
- [47:16]
B
Do you know what I mean? I know what you mean. I would say this. Pj, for me, I'm happy with where I am in terms of what I have, and I don't need more. I don't need to make a mark to, like, prove myself anymore in a way where it's like, I need to hit this number or I also don't have investors. I'm okay, so I don't have that push. Everything else is more about doing things right and making sure that this is gonna be a business that I'm gonna still be proud of, that I still want my name attached to. I think that's really the motivating factor a lot of times is that you
- [47:50]
A
want something that you can put your name on and feel proud.
- [47:52]
B
Yes.
- [47:54]
A
And when did you start to feel like you did have what you wanted, like you did have enough?
- [47:59]
B
I think that, you know, it's all relative. You know, like when we opened three or four stores, it feels like, yeah, this is good. Four or five stores, 10 stores. I think that a big part of what makes me content with where I am is also family. I'm 38 and I'm married. I just had a kid, you know. Thank you. Six weeks ago. So I think that is very important part of my life. And I think that having this as an anchor, not that everything else doesn't matter, not that the business doesn't matter, but I think as a person, you have your ambitions. If you don't have a goal that you want to hit and you feel like you're always missing out on something. For me, maybe it's family. Maybe it's just being able to see someone who will potentially take over in the future. Right.
- [48:49]
A
That.
- [48:49]
B
That, to me, in a way, is comforting and maybe more so than dollar amounts, maybe more so than store count. And that's probably a good spot for me and I want the business to continue to be strong. I want to leave a good legacy for my family, and I want it to continue to serve my guests who have been dining here for like decades now, actually. So that's really the motivating factor. Everything else, all the financial, not to say I don't look at the bottom, I look at the bottom. But the thing is, the bottom line is more so a means to an end rather than the end. And overall, the year is going to be a very exciting year for us just because we have six stores in the pipelines right now, three in New York, one in Boston, and two in the DMV area. So one in Maryland, one in Virginia. Things are coming along, hoping to open this summer. People are waiting for us to open and I can't wait to really make a big splash with those grand openings.
- [49:45]
A
So are you going to be there telling people how to eat the noodles?
- [49:47]
B
Oh, absolutely. That's what I'm there for, you know, being the annoying gu that talks too much.
- [49:53]
A
Thank you for talking to me about this.
- [49:54]
B
Of course.
- [49:55]
A
What do you recommend? People's first order?
- [49:57]
B
I would say depends on how hungry you are and depends on the season. If it's a hot day, try the cold skin noodles. If it's a cold day, try our hand pulled noodles. Which hand pulled noodles? Best sellers are spicy cumin lamb or the spicy tingly beef. But you know what, our hot oil seared noodles is pretty much a vegan option even though it's cooked in the water with our dumplings. So if you're okay with that, then it is vegan. And our pork jjajang noodles has actually been a sleeper hit these days. So definitely happy to introduce you to the different flavors, but I want you to make your decision.
- [50:26]
A
How many times in your life do you think you've said those words a billion times?
- [50:30]
B
So many times. And sometimes I catch myself like, oh my gosh, this is crazy. So yeah, definitely been a few times. Thank you.
- [50:39]
A
That was my interview with Jason Wang of Xian Famous Foods if you enjoyed it. If you want to hear more of the interviews you may have never heard on Search Engine before, check out Incognito mode. You can find it in our show notes or by navigating to Search engine show it's $50 a year. This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income is not easy. Bond markets are massive murky. And let's be real, lots of firms throw a couple flashy funds your way and call it a day. But not Vanguard. Here's the thing. Vanguard's bonds are institutional quality quality, not a tagline, and actual commitment to your clients. Over 80 bond funds actively managed by a 200 person global team of specialists, analysts and traders. And rather than betting everything on one star manager, Vanguard shares its best strategies across that whole team. No flashy, risky swings. Just steady, reliable investing that sets the standard. So if you're looking to give your clients consistent results year in and year out, go see the record for yourself@vanguard. Vanguard.com audio that's vanguard.com audio all investing is subject to risk. Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distributor. This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by NPR's Planet Money. Whether you're an expert or just curious, Planet Money from NPR is the show that makes sense of the economy through stories you'll actually want to hear. I still remember their classic Planet Money Makes a T shirt series where they tracked the global supply chain chain from a cotton farm in Mississippi to a factory in Bangladesh. It turned a massive abstract concept like globalization into something human and tangible. That's their superpower, making the complex feel simple. Their hosts go to unusual lengths to explain the world to you. They have published their own book, shot a satellite into space to understand the private space industry. They even went inside a live book auction to show how ideas get to market. It's the kind of show where where you learn something, probably laugh and walk away seeing the world a little differently. It's a space where the complex economy somehow makes sense and the dismal science becomes anything but. Follow NPR's Planet Money podcast and understand how money shapes the world. This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Odoo. Ever feel like you need one app for sales, another for inventory, another for accounting, and the list never ends? Managing a business should not feel like a full time juggling act. That's where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one, fully integrated platform that handles CRM, accounting, inventory, e commerce, hr, you name it. No more bouncing between apps or remembering a dozen logins. Everything works together seamlessly so you can actually focus on growing your business. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. And it's designed designed to grow with your business whether you're just starting out or already running a large company. It's easy to use, customizable, and streamlines every process so you can spend less time on software headaches and more time on what really matters. Thousands of businesses have already made the switch. Why not you try Odoo for free today@odoo.com that's o d o o.com. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey. It was created by me, PJ Vogt and Shruti Pinamani. Garrett Graham is our Senior producer. Emily Maltaera is our Associate producer. Our production intern is Piper Dumont. This episode was produced by Kim Kupol. Theme, original composition and mixing by Armin Bazarian. Our Executive producer is Leah Rees Dennis. Thanks to the rest of the team at Odyssey. Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gaynor, Maura Curran, Jostina Francis, Kirk Courtney, Vanessa Tinkati and Ellery Shot. If you have a business and like to advertise on Search Engine, Please email us pjvote85mail.com Subject line Advertising we also sometimes just choose to cover noodle restaurants we love. That is not an advertisement. That is our strange editorial prerogative. You can also send us questions if you have them. Pjvote85mail.com is the place to send them as well. Thanks for listening. We'll see you soon. This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Atari Hotels. Quick stat for you. Phoenix tourism is up 23%, hotel occupancy is at 89%, and a developer called Intersection Development, who already has 15 properties live and operating on Roosevelt Row in downtown Phoenix, has purchased the land for what might be the most interesting hotel project in the country. 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