Search Engine – "America vs. China" (October 31, 2025)

Host: PJ Vogt
Guest: Dan Wang, author of Breakneck: China’s Quest, Engineer of the Future
Main Theme:
A vivid, critical exploration comparing the lived experience and governing philosophies of China and America, through the eyes of Dan Wang—a thinker who’s spent years between both countries. The conversation is framed as an experiment in "reviewing" entire nations, asking: What’s it actually like to live in China vs. America? What truly sets these superpowers apart—and what can (and should) they learn from each other?

Episode Overview

PJ Vogt is joined by Dan Wang to dissect and "review" the countries of China and America. Drawing from years living and working in both, Dan paints mental "postcards" of Chinese cities, critiques common narratives about China’s political economy, contrasts the engineering-driven statecraft of China with lawyer-dominated American governance, and discusses the myths and realities of manufacturing, innovation, and state capacity in both countries. The episode punctures stereotypes and finds nuance, ultimately asking what lessons each superpower should (and shouldn’t) take from the other.

Key Discussion Points

“Reviewing” Countries: Why Don’t We Rate Where We Live? (02:30–05:15)

• PJ introduces the conceit of reviewing countries the way we’d review coffee shops or books.
  • “There’s no experience too personal or intimate or sacred to avoid being the subject of a review... except one of the most important things—your country.” (04:23)

Dan Wang’s Backstory: A Life Split Between Superpowers (06:06–10:48)

• Dan’s upbringing: Born in Yunnan, emigrated to Canada, later moved to the US, and eventually repositioned himself to China out of intellectual curiosity.
• Disillusionment with Silicon Valley:
  • “I was attracted to the US as a relatively ambitious young Canadian person and then did not find it all that it was cracked up to be.” (09:56)
• Sparked by the ambitions of “Made in China 2025,” Dan moves to China to become a tech analyst.

Mental Postcards: Hong Kong, Beijing, Shanghai (11:33–17:17)

• Hong Kong:
  • “It really feels like if Manhattan had toppled into Maui… It’s a big tropical island—amazing wildlife, skyscrapers, but also economically stagnant and ruled by property tycoons.” (11:33–12:55)
• Beijing:
  • “A Stalinist city. Boulevards for army parades, luxury malls side by side with heavy security presence—meant to project state power.” (13:33–14:30)
• Shanghai:
  • “It just felt incredibly comfortable... valid to call Shanghai the Paris of the East.” (14:55)

Is China Actually Communist? The Reality on the Ground (18:49–23:03)

• Dan challenges the “communist” perception of China.
  • “China is probably the most right-wing regime in the world that is masquerading as a left-wing regime.” (19:46)
  • Low taxes, thin welfare net, regressive consumption taxes, anti-union policies, and traditional gender roles.
  • “My favorite quote from Xi Jinping in the last couple of years is that ‘we should not build a major welfare system, otherwise people might grow lazy.’” (21:06)
  • PJ: “It’s so like ‘80s Republican.” (21:08)
• Despite Leninist trappings—state control of “commanding heights”—everyday life is less socialist than many think.

Engineering State vs. Lawyer State (27:37–44:02)

China: The Engineering State (27:37–40:20)

• China’s leadership shaped by engineers since Deng Xiaoping.

  • “Deng Xiaoping took a look at Mao—primarily a romantic, a poet… What is the natural opposite of a poet? Well, it’s definitely an engineer.” (27:41)

• Mega-projects as both stimulus and signature of leadership.

  • “Anytime the economy trembles, they build more mega-projects.” (28:38)

• Social “engineering”—one-child policy, zero-COVID—treating population like another variable.

• Anecdote:

  • Guizhou Province, though impoverished, boasts infrastructure that “puts New York and California to shame.” (34:54)
  • “Guizhou’s level of infrastructure was absolutely superb… it has about 15 airports… much, much better levels of infrastructure than New York State or California.” (35:04, 34:54)

America: The Lawyered State (40:39–44:02)

• U.S. politics, especially among the leadership class, dominated by lawyers since its founding.
  • “The United States has been ruled by lawyers since the very beginning... the Declaration of Independence reads like a great legal brief.” (40:39–41:15)
• Dan sees the downside as legalism: project gridlock, concentration of power among the rich, and protection of their interests.
  • “Lawyers are for the most part fundamentally handmaidens for the rich… America is the best place to be super rich.” (42:34)

Comparing State Capacities (35:42–40:20)

• California’s failed high-speed rail vs. China’s Beijing–Shanghai success:
  • “In the year 2008, voters in California approved a referendum… In the same year, China actually began construction… China completed high speed rail in three years, California’s is still not complete.” (35:54–37:13)

The Upside of Lawyer-Led America (44:02–45:32)

• Legal protections, relative freedom for elites and non-elites alike.
• In China, “not even the elite feel well protected.” (45:08)
• “There’s kind of a sense of the apocalyptic [in China] that hangs over you...”

Manufacturing, Innovation, and the Myth of Stealing (50:37–54:20)

• Dan rebukes the American narrative that China only “copies” and “steals IP.”
  • “Chinese workers are kind of the living beating heart of a lot of communities of engineering practice… this process knowledge gives you the ability to make new products as well.” (50:37–52:19)
• If America had built iPhone factories in Pennsylvania instead of Shenzhen, innovation ecosystems could have formed domestically.
  • “Technology production is really an ecosystem… knowledge travels at the speed of beer or coffee.” (52:52)
• China’s ecosystem allows for much more rapid innovation cycles, e.g., new car models in 18 months vs. years in Detroit.

When to Imitate, When Not to Imitate (55:36–58:24)

Lessons America Should (Not) Draw from China

• Dan is wary:
  • “I hope that the US doesn’t learn from China in terms of any aspect of its construction... I do not want to say that the US needs to become like China in order to build infrastructure. If we wanted to learn better infrastructure, let’s go to Europe.” (55:36–56:49)
• European cities build fast, yet uphold rights and environmental safeguards—a better model than China's disregard for due process, but also than Anglophone legal gridlock.

Legal Gridlock in the US: Lawsuits vs. Building (56:49–58:24)

• The Anglophone legal tradition (from Britain) creates endless opportunities for lawsuits that stall projects.
  • “At a first approximation, my view when it comes to urban planning is don’t trust anyone who speaks English.” (56:58)
• Story: Wealthy Americans blocking offshore wind projects with endless litigation—a problem Dan says doesn’t exist in France, Japan, or Spain.

The Wrong Lessons: U.S. "Learning" Illiberalism (58:44–61:27)

• Dan warns the U.S. is importing the worst parts of China: authoritarianism minus “the good stuff” like trains and logistics.
  • “What we have in the US is authoritarianism without the good stuff... functioning logistics, well-ordered manufacturing, robust train service.” (60:03)
• He wishes the US would become “20% more engineering,” while China could benefit from being “50% more lawyerly.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dan Wang:

  • “China is probably the most right-wing regime in the world that is masquerading as a left-wing regime.” (19:46)
  • “Engineers like to build stuff absolutely everywhere.” (28:45)
  • “[China’s] fourth poorest province has much better levels of infrastructure than New York State or California, which are much richer by orders of magnitude.” (35:04)
  • “Lawyers are for the most part, fundamentally handmaidens for the rich.” (42:34)
  • “I hope that the US doesn't learn from China in terms of any aspect of its construction… If we wanted to learn better infrastructure, let's go to Europe.” (55:36)
  • “At a first approximation, my view when it comes to urban planning is don't trust anyone who speaks English.” (56:58)
  • “What we have in the US is authoritarianism without the good stuff.” (60:03)

• PJ Vogt:

  • “It’s so like ‘80s Republican.” (21:08)
  • “I can't remember the last time I saw an American politician at a ribbon cutting ceremony.” (32:49)
  • “Those same Americans probably would not want to live in a country where the president directly tells those companies what to do or dismantles them when he’s displeased with them.” (45:26)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:23: Framing the “review” of whole countries
• 06:06–10:48: Dan Wang’s life between China/US/Canada
• 11:33–17:17: Mental postcards of Hong Kong, Beijing, Shanghai
• 18:49–23:03: Is China really communist? Dan’s challenger thesis
• 27:37–32:49: China as the “engineering state”
• 35:42–40:20: High-speed rail — China vs. California
• 40:39–44:02: America as “lawyer country”; pros and cons
• 50:37–54:20: Manufacturing, innovation, and America’s “lost ecosystem”
• 55:36–58:24: Should America copy China? Nope: “Learn, but not from China—look to Europe”
• 58:44–61:27: The U.S. is importing Chinese authoritarianism, minus the useful parts

Takeaways & Flow

• Dan’s central argument: China and America are not just rivals but operate from fundamentally different metaphors—one run by engineers, the other by lawyers. Each has its strengths and pathologies.
• The “reviewer’s eye”: Dan’s dissatisfaction is productive, prompting a granular, comparative noticing of what actually works (and doesn’t) in the lived realities of both nations.
• Breaking myths: China is not so much a “communist” country as a hyper-capitalist state with Leninist administrative methods. America, for all its rhetoric of freedom, is often logjammed by those most able to pay for legal obstruction.
• What to emulate: The US should avoid Chinese-style bulldozing of rights—but also its own legal paralysis. Europe and Japan, Dan says, prove good infrastructure and due process can coexist.
• Cautious optimism: Each country could benefit by absorbing a fraction of the other's strengths—America with more practical, apolitical building; China with greater respect for individual rights and dissent.

Final Thoughts

This episode goes beyond clichés, blending boots-on-the-ground observations with a systems-level critique of two world powers. Dan Wang’s “review” reveals that both China and America materialize their values at every level—from their subway screeches or lack thereof, to their basic methods for deciding what and how to build, to their capacity to harness (or destroy) the imaginative energies of their people.

Recommended Reading:
Dan Wang, Breakneck: China’s Quest, Engineer of the Future

For more: Listen to PJ and Dan’s full conversation for lively banter, deep dives, and a fresh perspective on our two biggest countries in perpetual contradiction and uneasy cooperation.