Can you cure picky eating?

Summary

Episode Summary: "Can You Cure Picky Eating?"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Search Engine
• Host: PJ Vogt
• Episode Title: Can You Cure Picky Eating?
• Release Date: February 21, 2025
• Description: On this episode of Search Engine, PJ Vogt delves into the complex world of picky eating. Through personal stories, expert insights, and a hands-on experiment, the episode explores whether picky eating can be overcome.

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1. Introduction to the Topic

The episode begins with PJ Vogt introducing the recurring guests from the podcast "No Such Thing"—Manny, Noah, and Devin. They engage in light-hearted banter before transitioning to the main topic: picky eating, specifically Manny's lifelong aversion to seafood.

Notable Quote:

• Manny [03:45]: "Today, I have a problem. And I'm grateful to be able to use this platform again to answer something so stupid."

2. Manny's Personal Experience

Manny shares his background, explaining that growing up Eritrean American, his family rarely consumed seafood unless from coastal regions. His aversion extends beyond taste to the very appearance and texture of seafood, which affects his social interactions and relationships.

Key Points:

• Lifelong aversion to seafood, particularly shrimp.
• Cultural background influenced his limited exposure to seafood.
• Social challenges when dining out with friends or partners who enjoy seafood.

Notable Quote:

• PJ Vogt [03:20]: "The Chicken Bone Squad was back here today because once again, they had a question for our show which they wanted to find the answer to."

3. Expert Insights: Interview with Dr. Mariah Zuckerberg

To gain a deeper understanding, PJ and the team interview Dr. Mariah Zuckerberg, a professor of psychiatry at Duke University and director of the Duke Center for Eating Disorders. Dr. Zucker discusses the psychological aspects of picky eating and whether it qualifies as a disorder.

Key Points:

• Disorder Definition: Picky eating is considered a disorder if it leads to significant impairment in social or occupational functioning.
• Disgust Factor: Disgust is an adaptive emotion designed to protect against pathogens, but in modern society, it can hinder social interactions.
• Therapeutic Approaches:
  • Forced Exposure: Repeatedly presenting the disliked food, although not always effective.
  • Positive Experiences: Involving individuals in food preparation and creating enjoyable associations with new foods.
  • Individualized Plans: Tailoring strategies based on personal preferences and tolerances.

Notable Quotes:

• Manny [05:00]: "My family ends up being a good example because although none of my siblings grew up eating fish, they all love fish."
• Dr. Zucker [14:52]: "Disgust is a really cool emotion... it's designed to protect us from getting contaminated from pathogens."

4. The Experiment: Steps to Cure Picky Eating

Determined to overcome his seafood aversion, Manny collaborates with Noah and Devin to design a three-step experiment aimed at gradually increasing his tolerance for fish.

a. Step One: Fried Fish Sandwich [26:27 - 28:00]

Manny starts with a spicy fried fish sandwich from a local seafood restaurant. The goal is to mask the fishiness with familiar flavors and textures.

Experience:

• Initial bites resemble a fried chicken sandwich, making it easier to consume.
• Partial tasting of fish leads to mild discomfort but doesn't trigger a full disgust reaction.
• Manny [27:59]: "The first bite is great because there's no fish in it."

Outcome:

• Successful in reducing immediate aversion.
• Paved the way for more challenging steps.

b. Step Two: Home-Cooked Roasted Salmon [29:58 - 32:44]

Next, Manny participates in preparing a roasted salmon dish glazed with brown sugar and mustard, designed to enhance sweetness and mask the fish flavor.

Experience:

• Enjoys the savory glaze, making the salmon more palatable.
• Begins to understand the appeal of well-prepared fish dishes.
• Manny [32:04]: "This tastes good. I don't want to say that it doesn't taste good. It's more of the mental factor of trying to get past what it is."

Outcome:

• Significant improvement in tolerance.
• Opens up possibilities for exploring different fish preparations.

c. Step Three: Dining at Swoonies Seafood Restaurant [33:56 - 37:56]

The final step involves dining out at Swoonies in Brooklyn, where Manny tries more authentic and varied seafood dishes, including tuna crudo and dorade.

Experience:

• Tuna Crudo: Initially skeptical but appreciates the buttery bread accompaniment, which diminishes the direct taste of tuna.
  • Manny [34:50]: "I just didn't taste the tuna."
• Lobster Orzo: The lobster is well-integrated into the dish, making it easier to consume without direct confrontation.
• Dorade: Represents the final challenge, where Manny successfully enjoys a non-fried, well-prepared fish dish.
  • Manny [37:10]: "It's really good. The char, the charredness of the skin on the top. This tastes like a steak."

Outcome:

• Manny successfully navigates the final step, indicating a significant reduction in his seafood aversion.
• Devin [36:12]: "Manny can tolerate it, but enjoying it is a breakthrough."

5. Results and Conclusions

After two months of gradual exposure and experimentation, Manny reports substantial progress in overcoming his picky eating tendencies toward seafood. While not entirely cured, his ability to enjoy seafood in various forms has improved, reducing social friction and enhancing personal relationships.

Key Insights:

• Gradual exposure combined with positive reinforcement can effectively mitigate food aversions.
• Individualized approaches, considering personal preferences and textures, are crucial.
• Supportive social environments encourage successful outcomes.

Notable Quote:

• Manny [38:28]: "I think you, at least in my case, can kind of cure it because I'm not going to eat fish that's just sitting there, that's not presented in any kind of way, but depending on the flavors around it... there are ways you can tolerate it."

6. Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with reflections on the journey toward overcoming picky eating. Manny expresses newfound confidence and ambition to tackle other food aversions, such as corn, inspired by his success with seafood.

Notable Quote:

• PJ Vogt [38:55]: "I think you have answered the question, like, can you cure picky eating? I think you have."

Additional Insights:

• The collaborative effort between Manny, Noah, and Devin highlights the importance of community and support in personal growth.
• Dr. Zucker emphasizes the biological and psychological underpinnings of food aversions, offering a comprehensive framework for understanding and addressing picky eating.

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Conclusion: In this engaging episode, Search Engine provides a multifaceted exploration of picky eating through personal narrative, expert analysis, and practical experimentation. Manny's journey offers valuable insights into the potential for overcoming food aversions, emphasizing that with the right strategies and support, significant progress is achievable.

Transcript

[PJ Vogt]

Search engine is brought to you by autotrader. If you're driving right now, look around, see all those cars? You can find them on Autotrader because they have the largest selection of new cars, used cars, electric cars, even flying cars. Okay, no flying cars yet, but as soon as those get invented, they'll be on Autotrader. Not only can you find that car you just saw, you can find it at a price personalized to you with Kelley Blue Book. My wallet Auto on Autotrader. From credit scores to down payments to interest rates, we all know that car buying requires a lot of math. Enter my wallet on autotrader, a tool that shows you exactly how much you'll pay each month for your car based on your unique info. So you never have to do car math again. So whether you're into timeless classics or the latest trends. Did someone say solar powered, eco friendly, self driving car? Or whether you just want something practical with no surprise costs. If you see a car you like, find it on autotrader. See it, find it. Autotrader. Do you guys want to introduce yourselves?

[Manny]

Absolutely. My name is Manny.

[Noah]

I'm Noah and this is Devin.

[PJ Vogt]

And Search engine listeners may remember you. You guys were on the show previously. Usually we answer people's questions. You guys showed up with a question which you then answered, which was, yeah.

[Manny]

Why are there so many chicken bones on the streets?

[PJ Vogt]

It was an investigation. People honestly still email me about people. I think there are just Americans now who walk down the street, see a chicken bone, and think about these three unusual gentlemen from New York who answered this phone.

[Manny]

I love to hear that.

[Noah]

We got an email last week about it.

[PJ Vogt]

Really?

[Noah]

Yeah. Someone sent us a picture of a chicken bone.

[Manny]

They thought that the episode. We were still doing research for the episode. I think.

[PJ Vogt]

Since that first story published a year ago, Manny, Noah and Devin have started their own podcast. They answer questions, something I was pretty sure we completely invented. But whatever. I think the reason their show is so good is their excellent question choosing. They pick questions that come out of their arguments. These three are always arguing about stuff like, do audiobooks count as reading? Do horses hate running?

[Manny]

Well, actually, today an episode came out called is it okay to wear your outside clothes on your bed?

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, I've been. I've been criticized for this quite a bit.

[Devin]

Yeah.

[Manny]

So I'll ask you, do you think it's okay?

[PJ Vogt]

I mean, there's a lot of things I do that I don't think are okay, but I will. I go to bed. Like, I don't know the people you're talking about how disgusting they are, but I'm definitely worse than them. Like, I will get in bed, I will sleep in my jeans.

[Manny]

Oh, from outside.

[Noah]

Yeah, we're not at that.

[Devin]

That's an extreme case.

[Manny]

That's pretty next level.

[PJ Vogt]

It's disgusting.

[Devin]

I mean, why?

[PJ Vogt]

Because I don't like Dragon Ball.

[Noah]

You have really comfortable jeans.

[PJ Vogt]

They're not. They're like.

[Manny]

These are like jeggings or how are you sleeping as you're a wrangler?

[PJ Vogt]

Like, they're not comfy. They're broken in. I'll just put it out. They're very broken. Just like, by the end of the day, the exertion of literally, sometimes I just don't have it anyway. The reason the Chicken Bone Squad was back here today was because once again, they had a question for our show which they wanted to find the answer to. A question we here at Search Engine found particularly delightful.

[Manny]

Today. We have a problem. And I'm grateful to be able to use this platform again to answer something so stupid. But I'm a member of the picky eating community that's run into a lot of issues in this friend group. It's run into a lot of issues in. And my relationship, specifically, because my version of picky eating is an aversion to.

[PJ Vogt]

Seafood across the board. No seafood?

[Manny]

Yeah, pretty much across the board.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah. And can I ask, like, are you a lifelong picky eater?

[Manny]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

And it's just. Has it been the same aversions since you were a kid or have you developed, like, as your palate has advanced, has your pickiness also advanced?

[Manny]

Yeah, I think it's been lifelong, especially with seafood. I am. I'll just tell you a layout a little bit about, like, my background. So I'm Eritrean American. Both my parents are from Eritrea. And in that cuisine, there's really no seafood at all. Unless you are from one of the port towns on the Red Sea, you don't eat seafood. So I didn't grow up with any seafood. The only seafood exposure I had was, like, at elementary school or middle school where they would have, like Fish Fridays or fried shrimp or whatever.

[PJ Vogt]

But. So would you eat the fried shrimp when you were a kid?

[Manny]

I did, but I didn't know what.

[PJ Vogt]

It was because there's just some fried things. The fried is always carrying the weight on it.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Manny]

Which is what struck me about this aversion, because it wasn't the taste at the time. Because knowing what it is is what made me. I understand.

[PJ Vogt]

I don't find pickiness in food consumption strange. And, like, I like seafood. But there was, like, I had a couple years where shrimp all of a sudden was like, I'm not doing this. And then it came back because they're like. They are like insects. It's like, you're eating this, like, weird fat worm that has, like, a visible line of poop in it sometimes.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

Yes.

[Manny]

And my family ends up being a good exam because although none of my siblings grew up eating fish, they all love fish. They like it. Now, there are another group of people who I'm running into this issue with. We cannot go out to eat and get what they want to get because I'm there.

[PJ Vogt]

And what are the conversations around this?

[Manny]

Like, they're like, stop being. Yeah, I won't use the words. Basically, I'm like, being a child and, like, preventing them from getting what they want to get. And I'll just say this, like, for the picky eaters out there, I don't think you should change who you are. But for me specifically, I'm running into this enough to where I'm curious about whether it's possible to cure your picky eating. I want to know if, like, is there something I can do to make it so that I can tolerate fish enough to be able to be at a restaurant and not cause any issues when I'm ordering in a group or with my girlfriend?

[PJ Vogt]

And is the idea that you'll let actually consume it?

[Manny]

Yeah, I think, like, the. Ultimately, like, it'd be great if I was just towing down on, like, any kind of fish, shrimp, tuna, whatever. But mostly I just want to be able to exist in this restaurant space and, like, not be a hindrance to people who, you know, in New York, it's a lot of money to go out to eat. If you're paying that much money and you're not eating what you want to eat, I feel like I don't want to be an obstacle to, you know, someone's desires.

[PJ Vogt]

Okay.

[Manny]

So that's the question that we came here to answer. Like, is it possible to cure picky eating?

[PJ Vogt]

And.

[Manny]

And we started with Noah. We had him kind of look into the history of picky eating and some of the stuff people have done to try and cure it.

[Devin]

Yeah. So what I found was the kind of idea of even just choosing what you eat is actually a pretty recent historical phenomenon. I mean, you can imagine most people just had to eat whatever was given to them throughout history. So, I mean, like, the term picky eating didn't even exist until the 70s or wasn't used until the 70s. But there has been kind of this war between picky children and their parents for probably since, like, the 1800s. So, I mean, for the past century or so, parents and doctors have been trying all sorts of ways to cure this modern affliction. There's all sorts of cookbooks designed to help parents sneak healthy foods into recipes that kids might actually try. Things like spinach and brownies.

[PJ Vogt]

Spinach and brownies?

[Devin]

Yeah. Which is pretty perverse, I feel like you would notice.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Devin]

There's probably some better ways to do it. Hopefully, you know, maybe new technology is helping this. I hope. Hypnotherapy is actually a popular method that's for both children and adults. So maybe Manny can try that.

[Manny]

Yeah, I would love to, but one.

[Devin]

Of the most common and definitely the one I was most familiar with is what I'd call forced exposure. So, all right, you hate some food, but if we just kind of force you to eat it or be around it, then maybe eventually you'll just kind of give in and accept that this is a decent food to eat.

[PJ Vogt]

And common because it's successful or common because it's just what every parent defaults to.

[Devin]

Yeah, I think it's just kind of an obvious thing to try. It's also very popular on daytime tv.

[PJ Vogt]

Daytime tv? Yeah.

[Devin]

So shows like Maury, I mean, you could find a lot of examples of this. It makes for great TV fodder, you can imagine. So I want to show you a clip, actually.

[PJ Vogt]

Okay.

[Nancy Zuckerberg]

This is Mariah. She's 18 years old, and she is deathly afraid of pickles. I mean, the whole world eats pickles.

[PJ Vogt]

There's a woman who looks like she just found out she's dying. She's shaking.

[Nancy Zuckerberg]

In school was called the pickle girl.

[PJ Vogt]

You know, of course they called her Pickle. And then they're presenting her with trays and trays and trays of pickles.

[Nancy Zuckerberg]

This is what the sight of a pickle does to Mariah.

[Mariah]

My name is Mariah, and I hate pickles. I hate everything about pickles. Are destroying my lives. People make fun of me. I feel ashamed that I'm actually.

[PJ Vogt]

Isn't it crazy how every idea you have has been done by someone in a dumber, meaner way?

[Nancy Zuckerberg]

We wanted to see firsthand the extent of Mariah's pickle phobia.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, no.

[Nancy Zuckerberg]

So we sent her to the Patterson pickle factory.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, no.

[Nancy Zuckerberg]

Where she would come face to face with thousands upon thousands of pickles.

[PJ Vogt]

Maury's a sadist.

[Devin]

Listen, if Mariah the pickle girl is out there. I would love to hear, you know, where you are now and kind of what your life has been like in the 20 years.

[PJ Vogt]

I have to say, it seems like being on Maury being humiliated for having a very unusual psychological response to pickles is so much worse than the problem she was trying to solve.

[Devin]

Yeah. So, like, needless to say, at the end of the segment, the pickle girl is still very much afraid of pickles. And like the research says, forced exposure therapy, like, that just doesn't actually work.

[PJ Vogt]

Right. Sticking the thing people have a problem with in their face over and over again. When we have a discussed response, he's like, good daytime tv, but bad tv.

[Devin]

So we couldn't just take Manny to some factory and hope it would go away. But we tried to find a scientist who had studied this kind of stuff. So we actually came across a professor at Duke University who was one of the first people to really hone in and look at picky eating in a comprehensive way.

[Manny]

We wanted to first just ask if you could say your name and what you do.

[Mariah]

My name is Nancy Zuckerberg, and I am a professor of psychiatry at Duke University, and I direct the Duke center for Eating Disorders.

[Manny]

Great. I'll tell you a little bit about my experience with this.

[Mariah]

I would love to hear.

[Manny]

Yeah, I've been a picky eater my whole life. I have a specific aversion to seafood and fish. And so what we're kind of planning to do with this episode is cure that as best as we can. And so, you know, you did just mention that you worked at the center for Eating Disorders. I guess my first question is, do I have an eating disorder?

[Mariah]

Yeah. You know, so the boundary in which being a picky eater is defined as a disorder is based on impairment. And so if your aversion to fish, does it include seafood, like shrimp, scallop?

[Manny]

Yeah, all of it.

[Mariah]

All of it.

[Manny]

The whole lot of it.

[Mariah]

Right. So, like, if you were, I suppose, an aspiring New York chef, and it was getting in your way of kind of designing the menu of your dreams, then it might be, you know, crossing over into impairment. But if it doesn't get in your way, then it probably wouldn't cross the lines of a disorder.

[PJ Vogt]

Interesting. So it's kind of the same way we're defining, like, depression or alcoholism. Like, whether a behavior rises to level of disorder has to do with how well you're able to fit in society.

[Noah]

Exactly.

[PJ Vogt]

And how we draw the line between picky eating and disordered eating is, like, how much it's impairing your relationship to society. Which is funny because it's like, I'm not gonna disagree with psychiatry, but I slightly disagree with that where I'm like, but we kinda do know there's a difference between, oh, I have an aversion, and, oh, it's a deep psychological pain. It feels like an insufficient way to describe the severity of the problem, but I'll allow it.

[Noah]

Yeah, Manny's not so extreme as in, he goes out to eat with us, and he can be in the presence of seafood.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Noah]

But some people, you can't smell it. You can't look at it. Right. Like.

[Manny]

But I am. I do feel disgusted by, like, fish just, like, when they're alive. Like, they're slippery and squirmy and just.

[Noah]

Seeing them out in the world, I'm.

[Manny]

Not gonna throw up, But I'm like, an alive fish. Yeah. A beautiful school of fish.

[Devin]

That disturbs you.

[Manny]

There are some.

[PJ Vogt]

I get it. No, I know what Manny's talking about. I'll defend you against your friends. Manny's talking about you're on the beach on vacation. You're standing, the water's up to, like, your thighs, and something like rushes on your leg.

[Manny]

Crazy.

[PJ Vogt]

Something squirmy and black kind of spark.

[Manny]

It's gross.

[PJ Vogt]

I'm with you.

[Manny]

Thank.

[Noah]

Did you go to aquariums as a kid?

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Noah]

So you were just like, oh, this is disgusting.

[Devin]

Covering his eyes.

[Manny]

Giant fish are different.

[Noah]

Oh, you don't like small fish.

[Manny]

There's the little ones that are, like, scheming something. I don't know, just, like, sizes.

[PJ Vogt]

The famous. Lots of fish. Yeah, but so you wouldn't, like, if you're out for dinner with your girlfriend, and, like, a waiter walks by with, you know, a plate full of, like, shrimp on a kebab, you don't care. But if you're with your friends and they were being jerks, and they, like, picked up a shrimp and dangled in your face, you would feel disgusted.

[Manny]

Yeah, I'd be like, get that out of my face.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Manny]

So I asked Dr. Zucker to explain to me, like, what's going on with this disgust factor? Like, why is that happening?

[Mariah]

So disgust is a really cool emotion, in my opinion. Right. So it's designed to protect us from getting contaminated from pathogens. Right. So it has a very protective function. And so when you think about how one becomes contaminated, we get contaminated when something crosses a body barrier. We ingest it, we inhale it, we absorb it through our skin across the orifice, and by the time it does that, you're contaminated and it's too late. And so there should be these cues that people who are disgust sensitive pick up like you mentioned. Slimy, right? These kind of things that just look to us like they're threatening and they could cause us to be contaminated. And you know, it's interesting that it's restricted to that one area. I would guess that you're pretty detail sensitive in other things like that you notice like visual details of things like texture.

[Manny]

Oh, yeah. I'm really observant. I'm a video producer and so that's kind of like part of my whole thing. It's ruined movies for me, actually. I can't watch movies like a normal person anymore.

[Mariah]

Oh, isn't that so interesting? Right? So I just, I think that that's like a cool adaptive trait that might not be as adaptive to the modern environment, but like, if you were a cave dweller back in the day, perhaps you would have outlasted your peers.

[PJ Vogt]

It's interesting, Manny. It's like you have a brain that is suited for being a cave dweller where it's like, avoid unfamiliar foods at all costs because they could be poisoned. And it's like sending you the right signals. But the problem is we're in a world where everything we want to do is just fit in socially. And the fact that your poison avoiding brain is telling you not to eat fish is causing you like 3% social friction, which is the worst thing that could happen in modern society at all.

[Manny]

Yeah. And I think, yeah, I think my ex once described me as someone who had a brain suited to be a cave dweller. That's not the first time I've heard that comment, actually. But I was interested in why Devin and Noah don't have the same problem that I do. So that's interesting in terms of my experience. But Devin and Noah here love fish. Why isn't their body telling them to avoid fish?

[Mariah]

Well, because it's pretty adaptive to eat fish, right? Like, not everything's contaminated. So there needs to be this kind of balance of like people that have kind of a low bar for trying out things and adventuring and testing things out and seeing if it's okay. So there should be variation in the population about kind of one sensitivity to these different features. So you got some people taking risks, like your friends and, you know, you, who is kind of holding back and saying like, you guys try it first.

[Noah]

So what's interesting is that Dr. Zucker actually did a study a few years ago with 20,000 self described picky eaters.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, wow.

[Noah]

And part of what they were trying to figure out with this study, especially with her work with kids, is like, what are the things that your parents did that helped with your picky eating? And what are some of the things that they did that, like, really fucked you up?

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Noah]

But she said the things that are helpful are like, creating positive experiences with your kids, involving them in prepping the food. Like, one example they had is like, introducing cultures with food as a way to introduce new foods to kids.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, like the culture from which the food comes.

[Noah]

Exactly. Like, giving some background on it, making it feel more like an experience versus here's this thing in front of you. Eat it now.

[PJ Vogt]

So it sounds like, basically since we were kids, it's like the picky eating literature has progressed the field of getting kids to eat things that might be unfamiliar or weird, because I don't think my parents or most people's parents were reading books that were like, sit your kid at the table with a plate of broccoli till everyone's crying. But that's what their parents had done. That's what they were doing. And it's like, people have actually thought about this, and, like, psychiatry has approached this, and, like, we have ideas about what to do.

[Noah]

Exactly.

[PJ Vogt]

Interesting.

[Noah]

But honestly, the coolest thing about Dr. Zucker and her team, they take all this data, all this information that they gather, and then they apply it to individual plans for individual people. So we asked her, hey, we're putting together a plan for Manny. Can you help us sort of shape what that plan looks like?

[Mariah]

So this is very simplistic, but, like, I have a grid where it's, like, you know, sweet and salty is, let's say, on the x axis. And, like, chewy and crunchy is on the Y axis. And so, like, Manny, if you were to, like, plot the foods that you currently prefer and eat, you know, on this, you can get the picture, right? Like, you know, is there kind of a pattern in terms of the textures and tastes that you prefer?

[Noah]

So basically her advice was like, try to introduce fish in a format that Manny might already like. So maybe like, a fish dish that's crunchy and salty. You know, that sort of thing.

[Mariah]

You know, like, parents will often start with, like, fish sticks, for example, you know, like, things like that. Or like, really, really crispy shrimp, because there's more breading to fish. You know, you guys get the picture.

[Manny]

She basically said, like, start with fried foods or put it in a sandwich.

[PJ Vogt]

Like, she said, just put it in a sandwich.

[Manny]

Just, like, because I'm already Used to eating sandwiches and I like sandwiches. Like, maybe if you do a fish sandwich, this is like a very entry level way.

[Devin]

Yeah. Things that can help mask the fishiness.

[Manny]

Or fried foods. Could do some fried fish. Fish and chips.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah. Fried fish makes more sense to me than fish sandwich.

[Manny]

Maybe she didn't say sandwich. Maybe that was my addition. But it's an example.

[Devin]

The doctor can take that up and you'd like.

[Noah]

And she also said, like, you should be realistic about what you're gonna do. Right. Like, first step shouldn't be like, I'm gonna eat a hundred bites of this fish.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Noah]

She's like, take it one bite at a time. Small bites. Like, take the cues that your body's giving you as well.

[Mariah]

You know, like, I would really do this. Like, I'd. Be gentle with yourself. Think about, like, how many bites I want to kind of manage. Do I want to just get over that initial gag and call it a day?

[Noah]

She's like, you should have a chaser.

[Mariah]

I would absolutely have a chaser.

[Manny]

Oh, yeah, Like a shot of whiskey or something.

[Mariah]

Yeah. Or like another a bite of food. Oh, I work with 5 year olds, for gosh sake. Like chocolate chips.

[PJ Vogt]

You know, My fear is that this like ends with you guys at like an all you can eat seafood restaurant and you're just hammered, like vomiting and tagging shrimp or something.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

You can drink your way through a lot of things, but I don't think.

[Manny]

No, no, this. The purpose of this whiskey is to clear the taste out.

[Noah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Devin]

Not so much.

[Noah]

Just kind of reset.

[PJ Vogt]

Okay.

[Manny]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noah]

Not to feel good.

[Manny]

So she gave us a few tips that were, you know, smart and reasonable. But what I really wanted before diving in was, you know, as a doctor, did she think this experiment could work? Do I have a real shot at curing this?

[Mariah]

I think that the odds are in your favor. And I'll tell you why one is. Because it is restricted to this one domain. You're able to tolerate the look and smell of it and be around it. Right. So that's another kind of clue that it's not as severe as it could be. You're highly motivated to work on this, which means that you're going to go into it with your threat kind of perception down and be more kind of just curious about it. And you're doing it for your girlfriend, which is just lovely. And so there's like, all the things that would be rooting for you to be able to get through this are on your side.

[PJ Vogt]

After a short break, a series of Trials and experiments. Will Manny be able to cure his picky eating? This episode is brought to you by ikea. I found myself in the studio the other day having a conversation with my colleague Sean, who's usually on the other side of the mic. We were talking about our sleep habits. What's the worst night of sleep you've ever had?

[Sean]

Well, I mean, I don't know if this is the worst, but I had a pretty bad sleep experience this weekend.

[PJ Vogt]

Which is what?

[Sean]

Which was. I had some friends visiting.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Staying with me. And like the generous host that I am, I gave one couple my bed.

[PJ Vogt]

You gave up your bed?

[Sean]

I gave up. Well, there was four people and I have a small one bedroom.

[PJ Vogt]

Okay.

[Sean]

So I gave two. There was a couple. They got to sleep on the bed.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Sean]

There was two other people and have like a big queen sized air mattress. So he was holding on that and I was like, I'll sleep on the couch.

[PJ Vogt]

That is real hosting.

[Sean]

I thought so, but I don't fit on my couch.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, no.

[Sean]

And so, like, first night, super scrunched. That wasn't going to fly. The second night, I like, borrowed an air mattress from a friend, like a small twin sized one, but she didn't give me the pump to fill it up.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, so you just had like a. A two dimensional piece of plastic.

[Sean]

Yeah, a giant piece of plastic. And we, like, tried to use a hairdryer, which actually is a hack and like, kind of works, but really doesn't really work that well.

[PJ Vogt]

Right. Like most hacks.

[Sean]

Yeah. And so then within an hour, it was, like, deflated and I was just sleeping on the floor.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, that's really bad.

[Sean]

Yeah, I know. And I'm like, I'm such a, like, princess in my sleep.

[PJ Vogt]

Yes. Do you feel like you've learned the lesson that you should never host people?

[Sean]

I think I've learned that. I won't give up my bed.

[Manny]

Yes.

[Sean]

I'm happy to share my bed.

[PJ Vogt]

Yes.

[Sean]

But I'll be the person sleeping in it.

[PJ Vogt]

That seems totally reasonable. IKEA can help you prepare for all kinds of sleep scenarios with all the products you need to turn your worst night of sleep into your best night sleep is very personal. And IKEA can help you create your optimal mix of bedroom essentials to help you get the sleep you need. IKEA sells comforters, duvets, and blankets so that you can customize for your ideal sleep temperature. I get very hot when I sleep, so looking for a comforter that breathes and can help me keep cool is extremely important to me. I'M also pretty sensitive to light. I need something to completely darken the room I'm in to fall asleep. And Ikea sells room darkening curtains and blinds. They also have air purifiers for better air quality, WI fi speakers for white noise. Almost anything you need to create your perfect night of sleep you can find at IKEA. Create your comfy, blissful bedroom today with the IKEA 6 Sleep Essentials. Shop in store or online at ikea-usa.com sleep this episode is brought to you in part by MUBI, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe. I really like mubi. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there's always something new to discover. With Mubi. Each and every film is hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema. Streaming anytime, anywhere. Truly. It's a website where you want it and all the movies are actually good. Here's what they're recommending this month. Grand Theft Hamlet streaming worldwide on MUBI from February 21st. A bold and inventive documentary, Grand Theft Hamlet reimagines Shakespeare's Hamlet through the lens of modern gaming, blending classical theater with the chaotic virtual world of Grand Theft Auto Online. Shot entirely within Grand Theft Auto, the film uses the game's cinematic tools to create a visually stunning and immersive experience that challenges traditional storytelling boundaries. It was the winner of the south by Southwest Documentary Feature Jury award with screenings at leading festivals including CPH Docs, Hot Docs, and the London Film Festival. To stream these and other great films, you can try MUBI free for 30 [e-mail] search engine that's m u b I.com search engine for a whole month of great Cinema for free. MUBI.com search engine welcome back to the show.

[Manny]

So after talking to Dr. Zucker, you know, I felt a little bit more confident about our goals here. I'm still a little skeptical, but like, we have a plan now. We have this experiment. And so Noah, Devin, and I thought it's finally time to do this thing.

[PJ Vogt]

Which was right.

[Manny]

Which was three steps of fishy meals and increasing fishiness. All right, this is Manny. I've just sat down with the first of three increasingly fishy meals. I recorded everything along the way. We just jumped straight into step one, which, you know, I found myself sitting in my apartment with some takeout. There is a restaurant by me in my neighborhood that's kind of moderately popular and it's a seafood restaurant. And I've ordered their fried fish sandwich. It's a spicy fried Fish sandwich.

[PJ Vogt]

So you were thinking fried fish sandwich. Because, again, fried is the dominant flavor.

[Manny]

Yes.

[PJ Vogt]

And sandwich also.

[Manny]

Also the sandwich.

[PJ Vogt]

This is like a double bandwidth.

[Noah]

Eat a lot of sandwiches.

[Manny]

It's in a vehicle that I know and love.

[PJ Vogt]

You're mainly eating, like, fish inflected bread.

[Manny]

That's what I would like to hope.

[PJ Vogt]

Okay.

[Manny]

Yeah. So I'm sitting there examining this sandwich. I am touching it, I'm smelling it. I'm assessing it. Generally, my first kind of thought is that it looks exactly like a fried chicken sandwich. And for that reason, I think all of the receptors in my brain are saying, wow, this looks really good. And it smells good as well. Crucially, though, we're gonna try to see if it tastes good or tastes good specifically to me. And so, yeah, let's take this first bite. And the first bite is great because there's no fish in it.

[PJ Vogt]

You're just at the fried part.

[Manny]

I just got the fried part. Then I'm like, oh, wait a second. I look at the sandwich. I'm like, oh, there's the fish. Definitely fish. I can already tell my. My jaw is, like, slowing down. Like, my brain does not want me to continue chewing this, but I'm going to fight through it.

[PJ Vogt]

Did you gag?

[Manny]

I didn't gag, I think because the spices in the fried part are so. Like, they were so savory, and they were so. What's the word? They smelled really good. And I didn't. I don't know. I think it just masked the fishiness. I kind of, like, barely taste the fish in this, but I still do taste the fish. And so that is. My body's just kind of like. It is not enjoying that part of this, the fish.

[PJ Vogt]

So it tasted gross, but it was kind of a success in that you were able to, like. Like, people eat food they don't like all the time. That's. That's different than having a disgust reaction.

[Manny]

Yeah. And so I ate a few more bites. I think. I mean, if. If you guys looked at the sandwich, you'd be like, you didn't touch this thing. But for someone who has an aversion, I ate a lot of the sandwich. Yeah.

[Devin]

I think if we were. We weren't with Manny when he ate the sandwich. I think if we were there, we probably would have forced a few more bites, which is probably against the wisdom of the doctor.

[PJ Vogt]

That's like parenting the 1980s.

[Devin]

Yeah. I'm old school.

[PJ Vogt]

If the sandwich were like a moon, like, what phase of moon would it be? Like, there's full moon. There's crescent moon.

[Manny]

Oh, we're talking pretty close to full.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Devin]

Werewolf's about to come in.

[Manny]

It's very bright. It's very bright.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Noah]

Maybe the night before full moon, you know?

[PJ Vogt]

Okay, okay.

[Manny]

I'm seeing it the night before. No, but I think what I took to be a success was that I even ate part of a thing that was touching fish.

[PJ Vogt]

Okay.

[Devin]

Yeah, yeah. So step one, we could generously call a success. So we wanted to up the difficulty level a bit. For step two, we decided to do a home cooked meal.

[Manny]

Hey, can you guys hear me through this?

[Devin]

Yeah, we're outside.

[Manny]

Oh, I'm opening the door. Welcome.

[Devin]

Please come in. So Devin and I were gonna cook, so we got some ingredients and went to Mandy's place.

[Manny]

There they are.

[Noah]

Hey, man. What's up?

[Devin]

How's it going?

[Noah]

It's our picky eater.

[Devin]

And Devin and I had googled a few different fish recipes to consider.

[Noah]

Do you remember the search terms we used?

[Devin]

Yeah, I mean, like, fish for babies, like easy, easy fish recipes for kids, things like that.

[Manny]

Just insulting.

[Devin]

Yeah. But, yeah, a lot of it was pretty simple. Kind of either white fish or salmon roasted in butter and kind of covered in garlic or other things.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Devin]

Fish tacos, sheet pan fish and chips. But we wanted something that wasn't super fried. We wanted to kind of step it up a little bit, so we'd actually kind of see if he can take this next step or if we're kind of still stuck at the fried fish stage. And we landed on a recipe that I've made several times before from the New York Times. Roasted salmon glazed with brown sugar and mustard. I think I've had that by Sam Stifton. It's a very popular one on the side. It's really good, and it's super easy. It's like you don't even need the recipe, really.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Devin]

And what was good was you could dial in the kind of sweetness of the sauce and how much there is. Yeah. So it's brown sugar and Dijon mustard.

[Noah]

It's almost like barbecue sauce on a chicken.

[Devin]

So let's see. This one on the left is gonna be the one for Manny, so I'm gonna make sure that one's extra sauce. Great. Thank you. We added way more glaze than probably I would have ever made.

[Manny]

Noah had me taste the glaze, and I was like, we're gonna need more.

[PJ Vogt]

More.

[Devin]

So, yeah, it was pretty covered. We made sauteed green beans as a palate cleanser, and he had whiskey on the rocks as his Other palate cleanser.

[Manny]

All right, I'm here with my whiskey that I'm probably gonna need after this. This looks gross, but I'm going in. So then I ate some of it, and the glaze was really good. And I remember kind of being like, this is the first time I could see why someone would like this.

[PJ Vogt]

Really.

[Manny]

It's like, this tastes good. I don't want to say that it doesn't taste good. It's more of the. It's. It's more of the mental factor of trying to get past what it is. But I will say this. I'm having an easier time eating this than the fish sandwich.

[PJ Vogt]

Really?

[Manny]

I was taken aback by the feeling of, like, oh, I kind of get it. I get this.

[PJ Vogt]

It's like the feeling you get with an unfamiliar genre the first time you hear a country song you like, and you're like, oh, okay, it might not be from me.

[Manny]

Yeah, the guy's singing about his rent is too high or whatever, and I'm like, wait, my rent's too high? That is pretty much the feeling I had eating the salmon.

[PJ Vogt]

Okay, so phase two, relatively successful.

[Devin]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

Can I just observe that? I don't know if, like, picky eating is mainly just a social problem. Like, it's not like you have some food deficiency from not eating fish or whatever. You just. I understand that you guys are trying to solve this problem partly because, like, you have a podcast to make and you have a question for the podcast and whatever. You also just have very nice friends. Like, the lengths that you guys are willing to go to make this work is very sweet and unusual.

[Manny]

Yeah, no, I thought about that, and it's in stark contrast to how our usual dynamic is. And so I was struck by that at some point during this experiment.

[PJ Vogt]

You mean because they weren't just, like, teasing you?

[Manny]

Yeah, I mean, Noah looking up a recipe, making me a meal.

[PJ Vogt]

I know.

[Manny]

It's kind of wild.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Noah]

So now that takes us to the real test, which is step three. Going to an actual restaurant to see how big of a pain in the ass to. Is Manny gonna be. And honestly, I didn't know how this was gonna go. Step one, two, I thought went fine. But I was curious how Manny was gonna perform at an actual restaurant with some actual fish dishes.

[PJ Vogt]

It's gonna be four people.

[Manny]

Three, two.

[PJ Vogt]

So where do you guys go?

[Manny]

We went to a restaurant called Swoonies in Brooklyn. It's just, like, a neighborhood spot.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, I like Swoonies. They have some weird, cool fish dishes there.

[Devin]

That's the dorad, I believe that's their fish. That's, like, their main fish entree.

[Noah]

I don't know if I've had that.

[Devin]

Yeah, I've never heard of that before.

[Manny]

Do either of you know what crudo is?

[Noah]

Yeah, there are a bunch of fish dishes that we had never heard of, but we ended up choosing three of them, and the first one was the tuna crudo.

[Manny]

Here's the thing about this dish. So tuna crudo, Is that what it's called? It's raw, like, cubed tuna, but it's in kind of like a salad with, like, avocado and. What is that? Cilantro. But the main part that I liked was that it's served with this bread that is incredibly buttery. And so what we were doing, we're put all this stuff onto the bread and then eating it.

[PJ Vogt]

It's kind of your sandwich theory.

[Devin]

Yeah, sandwich theory.

[Manny]

No one wants to acknowledge the sandwich theory. It's a valid theory. And the one thing I remember is not tasting the tuna at all. Like, I just didn't taste the tuna. First reaction. Like, there's definitely a little bit of the texture you're getting in. It's really good. Like, the whole thing's really good. I'm taking a second bite. It's kind of rare for me.

[Devin]

A second bite. I was shocked because he went in and immediately was just like, oh, I like this. I was kind of like, oh, well, we can just go now. I mean, we did it. I'm shocked by what I'm seeing. Not only does he like it, he's actively going back for more bites. I think we might need to order another entree here.

[Manny]

This is crazy. So then after the crudo came the lobster orzo, which was another appetizer. And it's. I mean, orzo, if people don't know what it is. Like, it's pasta kind of, but it's like, thicker rice, I guess. And it's got. This one's more of a red sauce, and it was really creamy and delicious. But the thing that I thought helped a lot with our experiment here is that you couldn't really see the lobster inside of it.

[PJ Vogt]

It was like hiding spinach in a brownie.

[Manny]

Yes, exactly. You're kind of like microdosing seafood, but.

[PJ Vogt]

You were finding that you're microdosing seafood experience was like, not just that you were tolerating it, but enjoying it.

[Manny]

Yeah. Okay, so I'm having a really good and, in my view, successful experience at swoonies, but I do Imagine if we went to like a lobster shop or something and it was just straight up lobster fork and knife. You'd have still have some struggle.

[PJ Vogt]

Or if you went to like a Portuguese restaurant where sometimes they'll serve you like a whole fish with the eye looking at you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, like, I don't really, like, like every time there's a full fish in front of me, I'm like, this doesn't feel right. Like, I'm more on your side of it where, like, fish can be an ingredient. Fish can be an ingredient. I feel like if the progress you've made is fish can be an ingredient. That's progress.

[Manny]

Yeah, honestly, it did feel like progress. Like I was actually eating the stuff that, that they were putting down on the table. But then the final dish came out and it didn't look like the other ones. Like, it actually just looked like, you know, out here. I'll just show you a photo.

[Devin]

This is the dorad.

[Manny]

This is the dorad.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, that's just a fish.

[Manny]

Yeah, he's a fish. I think I was calling it dorade without knowing, but this, you know, this is just literally a fish without the head, I think.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah. And without the tail.

[Manny]

Yeah. And this was the final test. This is like the final boss. Right. I took a forkful, I examined it, and then I went for it. What can I say? It's really good. The char, the charredness of the skin on the top. This tastes like a steak. And so I don't know. This is really good.

[PJ Vogt]

But Saweet, you fully enjoyed like an actual filet of fish.

[Manny]

That was really good to me.

[PJ Vogt]

Not fried.

[Manny]

Not fried. And there was very few kind of hang ups about it.

[Devin]

Five times the charm.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

It's funny though, you know, the process you're describing. Cause I feel like you have answered the question, like, can you cure picky eating? I think you have. And I think most people, if there's a kind of cuisine or kind of food that they're a little bit averse to cause unfamiliar. This is kind of like how they walk in the first time you try it. Maybe it's fried. Maybe it's an ingredient in something else. Maybe you go to a place that prepares it really well and you just slowly get used to something unfamiliar until you discover the pleasure in it. And then one day you turn around and you've just like, changed.

[Manny]

Yeah. I really didn't have any hopes for myself in any of these experiments. I really was like, okay, this is kind of a lost cause. There is Something. So, I mean, this sounds obvious now, but just like the repetition of doing it over and over again until you get used to it just like helps a lot. The texture of these fish, the fish that I've had in these past couple of months, I'm used to it now, and so I'm okay.

[PJ Vogt]

So this is a two month process. The argument you guys were having, the question you're trying to answer is, can you cure picky eating? What do you believe now?

[Manny]

I think you, at least in my case, you can kind of cure it because I'm not going to eat fish that's just sitting there, that's not presented in any kind of way, but depending on, like, the flavors around it, depending on the vehicle it's served. And there are ways you can tolerate it.

[Devin]

For my purposes as a bystander, the answer is yes, because I was shocked when he was taking bites of this raw tuna and enjoying it. And I was like, this is good enough for me.

[PJ Vogt]

And do you feel like I don't want to make too big a deal out of this, but, like, do you like, picky eater is like a trait? Like, it's like one of the aspects of your personality. Do you feel differently now on the other side of this experience?

[Manny]

Yeah, I mean, there's definitely. There's like all the corny stuff that it's taught me, like, how much I can personally affect in my life, but there's also other foods that I have picky eating aversions to that I want to try now.

[PJ Vogt]

What do you want to try?

[Manny]

Like corn, for example? I just. Corn hate corn.

[PJ Vogt]

Corn.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

What's your issue with corn?

[Manny]

You know what? It is kind of similar to fish in a way that it slimy and like, the texture is weird. It's okay if it's like sprinkled in a salad or something like that, but just like, eating it right off of the ear is tough. Really tough for me.

[PJ Vogt]

Popcorn, right?

[Manny]

Popcorn's fine.

[PJ Vogt]

Cornbread.

[Manny]

Cornbread's great.

[PJ Vogt]

Okay. You're gonna be fine. And how do you guys feel about.

[Manny]

Good.

[Devin]

I'm overjoyed. But yeah, it was nice to see.

[PJ Vogt]

Manny, Noah and Devin. Their podcast is called no such Thing. If you like our show, we think you'll really love theirs. Some episodes to check out that we really liked. Are suburban dogs happier than city dogs? I hope not. And should men sit when they pee? Which has caused a lot of conversation over here. No such thing. It's available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, everywhere else. This episode is brought to you in part by Quint. At Quint you can buy high quality timeless pieces without spending a fortune. That's why Quince has become a go to for essentials that look and feel amazing without breaking the bank. Quince offers incredible options like 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at just $50, washable silk tops and dresses, organic cotton sweaters and even 14 karat gold jewelry. And the best part? Their prices are 50 to 80% lower than similar luxury brands. And it gets even better. They only partner with factories that prioritize safe, ethical and responsible practices. I have been eyeing a cashmere sweater for these final chilly months of winter. They have some soft and cozy looking ones. Treat yourself to the luxury you deserve with quints. Go to quints.com searchengine for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.com search engine free shipping, 365 day returns and affordable luxury. You don't want to miss it. Quints.com searchengine this episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Netsuite. What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 answers. Bull market, Bear market. Inflation's up or down. Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 41,000 businesses have future proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle the One Cloud ERP bringing accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one fluid platform with one unified business management suite. There's one source of truth giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. If I had needed a product like this, this is the one I would have used. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities. Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at netsuite.com searchengine the guide is free to you at netsuite.com searChengine netsuite.com.

[Unknown]

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[PJ Vogt]

Search engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt and Shruti Pinamani and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact checking by Holly Patton Theme, original composition and mixing by Armin Bazarian Additional production support from Shaun Merchant and Kim Kuble. If you'd like to support our show, get ad free episodes, zero reruns and the occasional bonus audio. Please consider signing up for Incognito Mode. You can learn more at Search Engine Show. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss Berman and Leah Rees Dennis. Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perillo and John Schmidt and to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gaynor, Matt Casey, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Kurt Courtney and Hilary Schaeff. Our agent is oren Rosenbaum at UTA. Follow and listen to Search Engine with PJVote now for free on the Odysee app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.

[Manny]

Creek.