Does anyone actually like their job? (classic)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Does Anyone Actually Like Their Job?"

Episode Information:

• Title: Does Anyone Actually Like Their Job? (Classic)
• Host: PJ Vogt
• Release Date: February 28, 2025
• Description: PJ Vogt delves into the perennial question of job satisfaction, intertwining personal anecdotes with interviews to explore whether genuine passion for one's work is attainable.

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1. Introduction and Personal Reflection

Timestamp: [00:00] – [07:06]

PJ Vogt opens the episode by expressing a personal struggle that resonated throughout his twenties: questioning the authenticity of enjoying one's job. Reflecting on his own oscillating feelings towards work—ranging from passion to burnout—Vogt introduces the episode's central theme: "Does anyone actually like their job?" He shares his affinity for revisiting favorite episodes, highlighting the significance of this particular conversation in providing him with guidance towards finding a balance between ambition and contentment.

Notable Quote:

PJ Vogt [00:00]: "I'm constantly on this strange wheel of Samsara with work, loving it, feeling pummeled by it, wondering if I'll ever find some kind of balance or if that balance is even a real thing."

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2. Introducing Craig Finn: Early Life and Musical Aspirations

Timestamp: [14:08] – [17:46]

Vogt transitions to discussing Craig Finn, lead singer of the indie rock band Lifter Puller and later The Hold Steady. Finn recounts his childhood dream of becoming a rock and roll singer, influenced by bands like the Bay City Rollers and Kiss. Despite his mild-mannered, nerdy demeanor, Craig's passion for music led him to pursue an electric guitar and immerse himself in the local music scene.

Notable Quote:

Craig Finn [14:23]: "I remember telling my babysitter when I was really young that I wanted to be a rock and roll singer."

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3. Balancing a Day Job with Musical Pursuits

Timestamp: [17:46] – [22:04]

As Lifter Puller began gaining local fame, Craig Finn faced the practical necessity of maintaining a stable income. Contrary to urban legends, Finn did not work as an IT specialist at Goldman Sachs but held a position at American Express Financial Advisors. He describes his role in the annuities department, navigating the stereotypical office environment while nurturing his musical aspirations. Finn highlights the balancing act of managing a corporate job alongside the unpredictable demands of being in a band.

Notable Quote:

Craig Finn [18:57]: "I started working in American Express Financial Advisors, which has a big campus downtown Minneapolis."

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4. The Birth of The Hold Steady: Intentional Non-Ambition

Timestamp: [22:04] – [29:48]

Finn and his bandmates reached a turning point when Lifter Puller struggled to expand beyond the local scene. In response, they formed The Hold Steady with the explicit goal of avoiding the trappings of success. Finn shares their initial ground rules: refraining from playing shows to keep the band casual and pressure-free. However, the band's undeniable talent and charismatic performances organically attracted larger audiences, leading to unintended success.

Notable Quote:

Craig Finn [25:09]: "One was that we weren't going to play any shows. Because I surmised, perhaps correctly, that when you move the gear, that's when the trouble starts."

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5. Transition into Success and Maintaining Happiness

Timestamp: [29:48] – [39:36]

As The Hold Steady gained national attention, Finn faced the challenges of managing increased expectations and business complexities. Despite the burgeoning success, he emphasizes the importance of separating financial worries from the joy of performing. Finn discusses the dichotomy of handling "sober" financial decisions while maintaining a vibrant on-stage presence, illustrating his ability to compartmentalize stress and focus on the present moment.

Notable Quote:

Craig Finn [38:23]: "And that's pretty easy for me anyways to have that conversation and be a little disappointed at 1pm and then at 9pm when it's time to get on stage to turn up the amp and be like, well, this is great."

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6. Insights on Ambition and Job Satisfaction

Timestamp: [39:36] – [44:18]

Vogt and Finn engage in a deep discussion about ambition, envy, and the elusive nature of job satisfaction. Finn asserts that liking one's job is achievable but cautions against the pitfalls of constantly shifting goalposts and coveting others' successes. He advocates for practicing gratitude and being present to foster genuine contentment. Finn's perspective underscores the balance between striving for more and appreciating current achievements.

Notable Quote:

Craig Finn [42:45]: "I absolutely do. I think that the hang ups really come, I don't want to say from ambition because I think ambition is healthy, but from this kind of envy or coveting."

---

7. Conclusion: Finding Happiness in Ambition

Timestamp: [44:18] – [47:20]

In wrapping up the episode, Vogt reflects on his own journey with ambition and success, paralleling it with Finn's experiences. He acknowledges the pressure that success can bring and how it often leads to a paradox where achieving a dream job doesn't necessarily equate to sustained happiness. The conversation culminates in a shared understanding that true job satisfaction lies in balancing ambition with appreciation, and maintaining focus on what genuinely brings joy without succumbing to the relentless pursuit of more.

Notable Quote:

Craig Finn [38:23]: "It is fun, but that kind of fun where the good parts of the job are obvious to everyone. And the harder parts of the job, those happen a bit off stage."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Ambition vs. Contentment: Striving for success is natural, but it must be balanced with gratitude and present-moment awareness to avoid perpetual dissatisfaction.

• Passion with Stability: Maintaining a stable day job can provide the financial security needed to pursue creative passions without the overwhelming stress of uncertainty.

• Authentic Success: True job satisfaction comes from aligning one's work with personal values and passions, rather than external validations or societal expectations.

---

Notable Quotes with Attribution and Timestamps:

1. PJ Vogt [00:00]:

   "I'm constantly on this strange wheel of Samsara with work, loving it, feeling pummeled by it, wondering if I'll ever find some kind of balance or if that balance is even a real thing."

2. Craig Finn [14:23]:

   "I remember telling my babysitter when I was really young that I wanted to be a rock and roll singer."

3. Craig Finn [18:57]:

   "I started working in American Express Financial Advisors, which has a big campus downtown Minneapolis."

4. Craig Finn [25:09]:

   "One was that we weren't going to play any shows. Because I surmised, perhaps correctly, that when you move the gear, that's when the trouble starts."

5. Craig Finn [38:23]:

   "And that's pretty easy for me anyways to have that conversation and be a little disappointed at 1pm and then at 9pm when it's time to get on stage to turn up the amp and be like, well, this is great."

6. Craig Finn [42:45]:

   "I absolutely do. I think that the hang ups really come, I don't want to say from ambition because I think ambition is healthy, but from this kind of envy or coveting."

7. Craig Finn [38:23]:

   "It is fun, but that kind of fun where the good parts of the job are obvious to everyone. And the harder parts of the job, those happen a bit off stage."

---

Conclusion:

In this introspective episode of Search Engine, PJ Vogt and Craig Finn navigate the complex terrain of job satisfaction and ambition. Through candid conversations and personal narratives, they uncover the nuanced relationship between achieving one's dreams and maintaining genuine happiness. The episode serves as a compelling exploration for listeners grappling with similar questions about their careers and personal fulfillment.

Transcript

[PJ Vogt]

Hello. This week we're rebroadcasting one of our favorite episodes. It's about a question that actually haunted me for most of my 20s. Does anyone actually like their job? One of Search Engine's pet obsessions, you may have noticed, is work, and this episode was the first time we took a swing at that pinata. This year we're starting the practice of periodically rebroadcasting some of our favorite episodes, at least on the main feed. Our incognito mode, which you can sign up for at Search Engine show, does not air rebroadcasts, but honestly, I'm pretty happy to play this one for you again. Listening this week to it again for the first time since we aired it in 2023, I remembered that for me, I'm constantly on this strange wheel of Samsara with work, loving it, feeling pummeled by it, wondering if I'll ever find some kind of balance or if that balance is even a real thing. And I found that our silly question and our exploration of its answers had actually given me some guidance, some notes towards some kind of solution. Anyway, please enjoy the story after these ads. This episode is brought to you in part by mubi, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe. I really like mubi. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there's always something new to discover with mubi. Each and every film is hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema streaming anytime, anywhere. Truly, it's a website where you go on and all the movies are actually good. Here's what they're recommending this month. Grand Theft Hamlet Streaming worldwide on Mubi From February 21, a bold and inventive documentary, Grand Theft Hamlet reimagines Shakespeare's Hamlet through the lens of modern gaming, blending classical theater with the chaotic virtual world of Grand Theft Auto Online. 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Flu season is here, and it feels like it's hitting harder than ever. Between work, family and everything else life throws at you, keeping your immune system strong is crucial, which is where Groon's vitamins come in. They're packed with essential vitamins like vitamin C, D and zinc, designed to naturally boost your immune system and keep you feeling your best no matter what the season brings. This is not a chore, it's something you'll actually look forward to. Don't wait for the flu to strike. Take control of your health today. With Groons Vitamins, your immune system will thank you. Get up to 45% off. Visit Gruns Co and use Code Search When I was in my 20s, I had this recurring fantasy, this little movie I'd play myself in my mind to calm down when my brain was too jittery and I couldn't sleep. I'd picture myself walking down my block late at night, completely alone, when all of a sudden this guy would come around the corner and it would be me, but older, and I'd have just a moment in passing to ask him, does it work out? And this older, grizzled version of me would just like, sagely nod his head and then disappear, presumably into the fog of night. Just to be clear, this anxiety I had about my future, it was not about my health or my friend's health or who was going to be president from about 2006 to 2014. What I fervently stayed up all night thinking about was whether one day I would get to do the thing I'm doing exactly right now. In this moment, I wanted to tell stories for a living. I was living in New York, a college dropout with a decent temp job doing research and editing for a radio journalist. But I wanted to tell stories myself. I wanted this the way people forced underwater want oxygen. I was convinced that if I could have this, every other problem would take care of itself and I'd just be in a permanent state of happiness. Like I would not feel pain. Taking Ecstasy would be like drinking room temperature tap water 24.7Nirvana. If I could just get a job telling true, reasonably amusing stories. My life had a focus, perhaps too much focus, because on the flip side, I was also convinced that if this didn't happen, I would. No matter what else worked out, I would be miserable. There's a word for this toxic condition, this poisonous, all or nothing kind of thinking. It's called ambition. You get a glimpse of a life you want, you fix on it. And from that moment on you feel intense, all over pain every moment you're not there. I now know that despair is not a rare feature of anyone's twenties. Even very fortunate people often spend that decade stuck in a life they don't want, without a clear path to the one they'd prefer. But that despair felt like most things about life then, completely unique to me. I couldn't find a container that could hold it. My boss at the time had this sign above their desk that said, quote, the sun shone. Having no alternative on the nothing new, I became convinced that everyone in a job was miserable. That the entire world was filled with people who spent Friday dreading Monday. That anyone who claimed to like their job was just lying to me personally. For what reason, I'm not sure. But then I heard about this band. They were called the Hold Steady Indie Rock Music. The kind of band that seems to have zero casual fans. Either you've seen them a hundred times or you don't really get it. I got it.

[Craig Finn]

If you want to get a little bit light in the Hattie, it's gonna have to get a little bit happy.

[PJ Vogt]

The songs I thought were perfect stories about down and out party partiers in America. People with fucked up lives who had slid far off the path of their own dreams, but still had a sense of humor about it. Constitutionally unable to enjoy something without becoming obsessed with it. I got very obsessed with the band and in particular with this one small part of their mythology. I'd heard about how the singer Craig Finn had supposedly had a very strange path into his music career. And the story of that path gave me a kind of hope. What I had heard on the Internet was that before the hold study, Craig Finn had languished in a drab office job. In one version of the story, he was an IT guy at Goldman Sachs. And this legend, it was believable because Finn was a balding, horn rimmed, glass wearing guy with a pretty nasal voice. The joke in the reviews of the band was sometimes that he actually looked more like an accountant than a rock singer. In the version of the story I'd heard, he'd basically become an accountant and he'd had to make peace with it. But then after years, Languishing in a job he didn't want. He started this new band just for fun, the Hold Steady. And that band had taken off. It had rescued him from his life. And there was a little more evidence for this story. The story of a guy who, late in life, had escaped a job he hated and found one he loved. When I'd see them play live over and over again, there's this thing he'd almost always do. Towards the end of the set, he started to tell stories, and then on the stage, he'd offer something that felt almost like a prayer.

[Craig Finn]

Man, I say the same thing almost every night. I'm not fooling anyone. But I only say it because it's.

[PJ Vogt]

True, where he would just express pure gratitude that his life had worked out, that he got to do his job for a living.

[Craig Finn]

There is so much joy in what we do up here. I want to thank you for being here today to share that joy with us.

[PJ Vogt]

And I came to understand that maybe I was going to all these concerts really just for that moment. Maybe I really needed to believe that someone really did love his job, that everybody else wasn't just faking it the way I was faking it, but being constitutionally incapable of not becoming obsessed with things. I started to think about it too much. And I started to wonder, like, really wonderful. What if Craig Finn was lying? Because I knew that even most dream jobs eventually become jobs. They become onerous. And if Craig Finn had ever just once publicly said in some interview that he loved his job, and if people had responded to that, he would have been bound to that fiction forever. For years, stuck in my own unhappiness, I wondered about his happiness, wondered if it was real. I would plot and scheme about ways to ask him about it, or I might get a real answer. In 2014, I bid in a charity auction where the prize was, you got to go jogging with Craig Fenn. I had this idea that if I asked him when he was sort of winded, then I'd get a real answer. I won the auction, but I never sent the email to book the actual run. The band's manager even followed up with me, but I ducked his emails. I chickened out. Whenever I'd see Craig Finn's name after that, I'd feel this little jolt of embarrassment and regret. In the years that followed, a lot of things would happen in my life. Over a decade later, I think I'm now actually the age I was picturing back then, when I couldn't sleep. That grizzled older version of myself but now with a podcast where I get to call people and ask them all sorts of questions. Questions about ambition, questions about jobs, questions about how to survive as a person. So after the break, Craig Fenn this episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Bombus. Well, it's officially too cold to do anything. The upside? You can cocoon yourself in Bombas socks, slippers and underwear all winter long. Bombas feel very cozy because of their fabrics. We're talking about the good stuff, like merino wool, which feels as cozy as a ski lodge. And they've thought of every detail. They know little things really do make a big difference. So they've removed all the itchy tags, fixed that annoying toe seam, and perfected the fit of everything. No more socks that slip down. No more. Or underwear that rides up. Every Bombas item gives back. For every item you purchase, Bombas will donate another item to someone facing homelessness. I've mentioned before that I got a lot of red Bombas socks because people were stealing my socks and I feel like if the socks were red, the socks would not be stolen. The socks were stolen. But I now have enough red socks that even with all the thievery, I'm wearing Bombas. So try Bombas. Now. Head over to bombas.com engineering and use code ENJIN for 20% off your first purchase. That's b o m B-A-S.com ENJIN code engineeckout this episode is brought to you in part by LinkedIn. Running a small business isn't just a job. It's your passion. But let's face it, when it's time to hire, the process can feel overwhelming. That's why you need a partner that works as tirelessly as you do. Meet LinkedIn Jobs. The hiring partner that never clocks out LinkedIn makes it easy to post to your job for free and share it with your network. They even have tools to help you find the perfect job description and get it in front of the right people. Thanks to their powerful candidate insights, I have used LinkedIn both to look for jobs and to look for people to hire. Genuinely very easy. With LinkedIn, it's all about quality. That's why 72% of small businesses using LinkedIn say it helps them find top tier talent. And here's a pro. Add a hiringframe to your profile picture to let your network know you're hiring. It's an easy way to double your pool of qualified candidates. Find out why over 2.5 million small businesses trust LinkedIn jobs to grow their teams Post your job for [e-mail] pjsearch that's LinkedIn.com pjsearch to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Welcome back to the show. A few months ago, I tried just sending Craig Finn an email telling him where I was coming from and asking if he might be up for what could be a slightly unusual conversation. He said he was game. Okay, so I think my first question for you is just, can you give me a picture of, like, your early life? Like, how old were you when you first decided the job you wanted was musician?

[Craig Finn]

I think. I mean, I remember telling my babysitter when I was really young that I wanted to be a rock and roll singer. Like, when I was, like, I don't know, eight.

[PJ Vogt]

On Saturday night. Saturday night.

[Craig Finn]

I was listening to bands like the Bay City Rollers and Kiss and getting really enthused about music and also the monkeys who are on tv. It looked like that was the best job, you know, it looks like. I think there was the camaraderie of being in a band that looked fun.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Craig Finn]

The ability to burst into song. It seemed like girls liked guys in bands. Like, the whole thing looked pretty great. And I was a very mild mannered, nerdy kid. So, like, it was not. It didn't seem like I was destined for it, but it's what I wanted. And I think it led me before too long, probably to ask for an electric guitar.

[PJ Vogt]

And what did your parents do?

[Craig Finn]

Oh, my dad worked for Ernst and Young accounting firm, and my mom was a homemaker since I was born. So they were not, you know, they were not rock and roll people, but they were very supportive. And maybe I was half saying, I'll probably work in the music industry and.

[PJ Vogt]

And did you feel like. I think one of the things that people use the word ambition, and I think what's weird about my relationship to that word is that it sounds like a powerful feeling. It's like, I'm gonna do all this stuff, but whenever I've experienced it, it's been like, a painful feeling. It's like, I want this thing. I see a huge gap between my life and the life I want, and I feel like I'm on the other side of the glass and it hurts. Did you feel that way towards music?

[Craig Finn]

Yeah. I mean, one thing I can point to is, like, in college, I went to Boston College and I was writing for the school. I was, like, reviewing records, and that was, you know, I did that, and maybe I did okay at it, but, like, I got the Feeling that that wasn't the side of it I wanted to be on.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Craig Finn]

And then a friend of mine had started a booking agency and she was booking cool bands and maybe a little more part of this indie scene than I was. And I started hanging out with her and helping her with some of her stuff. And again, it just got me closer to bands. Made me realize like what I wanted to do was to just play my own songs and have a band rather than do sort of this, you know, the. Whatever involves booking a tour. Now turn your stereo up and your.

[PJ Vogt]

TV on to cable channel six. Here's your host, Amy Dahl. This video clip is from December 1997. A 26 year old Craig Finn is playing with his up and coming band Lifter Puller on live public television in St. Cloud. Ladies and gentlemen, may I present to you Lifter Puller on Monday Night Live.

[Craig Finn]

Thereafter, we'll refer to this.

[PJ Vogt]

In the video, Craig Finn looks quite young and like a guy who maybe did not have time to change after work. He's wearing a red oxford tucked into chinos, playing a Telecaster covered in stickers. I will say Lifter Puller, I do not love the way I would love what would come later. The hold steady. Honestly, it might just be that the lyrics are harder to make out, but I do feel like I can already hear some of what Craig Finn is going to do really well in his next band. He's going to tell these gossipy stories about an underground world that he has, this magic ability to conjure, this seedy, sleazy underbelly of Minneapolis that might only exist in Craig Finn's own imagination.

[Craig Finn]

Tell me what I'm.

[PJ Vogt]

People here are always waking up high and bewildered on intersections that alliterate the drug dealers cross paths with the sorority girls. Everybody wonders about this mysterious fire set at a nightclub called the Nice Nice. It's a world you can sink into. The characters from one song sometimes cameo in another. By the time Lifter Polar started in earnest, Craig Finn had decided not to pursue his music industry job as a booking agent. In his mind, it just didn't feel right to be working in the industry while simultaneously trying to make it as a musician. Like maybe people wouldn't take him seriously. So he got a real day job. And the job he got, not what you'd expect from a man staying up all night in clubs singing songs about arsonists and drug dealers and pimps. It wasn't the one. I'd heard he wasn't an IT guy at Goldman Sachs, but. But honestly, it Was pretty close.

[Craig Finn]

I started working in American Express Financial Advisors, which has a big campus downtown Minneapolis.

[PJ Vogt]

So you were working at American Express Financial Advisors while you were in Lifter Puller?

[Craig Finn]

Yeah, yeah, it was really kind of interesting. Spectacular place. I started out in the annuities department and people would call in and you'd tell them your balance and you'd do small transactions for them. You know, I'd wear a headset mic and there'd be, it'd be like this like football field sized office, right? Like, you know, and everyone had their little cubicle and there were a lot of young people that worked there. So there was its own scene, you know. I mean, what was the scene like? It was weird, you know, I mean, it was like the office kind of experience that in some ways is very stereotypical. Like you'd have a Christmas party and people would misbehave. Yeah, you know, I remember there were these guys that I'd hang out with sometimes and they would, they would, they would like go out almost every night and then they'd come in and they'd rate their hangovers and they would like. And you had, we had like an intranet system, you know, like, so you could like talk to each other. And I can't remember what the level, I think level six was. You threw up at work.

[PJ Vogt]

So that's so such a low number throwing up at work.

[Craig Finn]

Yeah, I mean, and it's funny, the thing was, is there'd be a tax season where people would need their tax forms and whatever and it would get really busy and it was really awful. Like people would have to wait on hold for a long time before they talk to you. They'd be really angry when they got you. And so I remember during that period each year, not wanting to go to work, like lying in bed and being like, I don't want to go there today.

[PJ Vogt]

A lot of people faced with a job they don't love, survive just by living in their imaginations or looking forward to nights and weekends. Craig Finn, for whatever reason, decided the way he would thrive at American Express Financial Advisors was he would just apply himself to the job more deeply. He realized there were these tests he could take to climb up the corporate ladder.

[Craig Finn]

There kind of was like a company wide directive that you had to pass what they called a Series 6 exam, which, it's a regulatory thing.

[PJ Vogt]

Okay.

[Craig Finn]

And a lot of people had problems passing that exam. And I think a lot of people were in a different place than I, their parents, et cetera. And they just didn't have time to deal with it. I was able to pass it pretty easy. And so I said, wait a minute, I'm gonna go get this series 7.

[PJ Vogt]

Listening to Craig Finn talk about all this, I have a moment that feels like genuine disassociation. This person who I admire so much, his ability to tell stories, his ability to make music that has sustained me as a human, he's Talking about his LinkedIn corporate accomplishments with such straightforward, normal pride. It feels like we've slipped and fallen into some other multiverse where I'm now a hiring manager, trying to figure out if Craig Finn would be a good fit synergy wise for my team.

[Craig Finn]

Series 7 allows you to trade stocks and bonds, so I went and studied for that. And then I got series 24, which for every amount of series 7s you have, you need a series 24 to kind of sign off on their transactions. So I saw this exam taking as a way to kind of make myself indispensable.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Craig Finn]

And through that, I moved up to a wealth management area.

[PJ Vogt]

And so you're not. Were you. When you would go into work at your day job, was it like, it sounds like it felt fine. Like, it doesn't sound like it was like a life of quiet desperation. It was like an insurance policy that was supporting.

[Craig Finn]

Yeah, it was exactly that. And it allowed for some stability. I mean, you know, my bandmates largely were doing more like, you know, freelance stuff. They were like, catering and things like that. And that felt more stressful to me than getting a paycheck every two weeks.

[PJ Vogt]

So just to remind you of the question I'd actually come here to answer, I'd wanted to know if Craig Finn liked his job as an indie rock star. It had never occurred to me to ask the much stranger question of before he was an indie rock musician, did Craig Finn like his job working at American Express? But he had. He liked it fine. So the first thing that surprised me is that Craig Finn, like pretty much every person I've ever met, was better adjusted in his 20s than I was. When he looked at his life then, what he saw was a steady paycheck that let him focus on his real passion, Lifter Puller, a band that was becoming Minneapolis famous. One day he got a call from a guy above him on the AMEX corporate ladder.

[Craig Finn]

There was a guy who called down and said, hey, do you follow local music at all? And I was like, yeah, a bit. And he goes, there's a band called Lifter Puller and their singer has the same name as you. And he said, he didn't think for one second it could be me.

[PJ Vogt]

Stuff like that would happen, and it was cool. But Lifter Puller struggled to break out beyond the local scene. And pretty soon the band realized they'd probably gone as far as they were gonna go. Lifter Puller breaks up and Craig Finn goes from being Craig Finn, from Lifter Puller to just Craig Finn, ordinary person. He moves to New York. He gets a new day job doing the thing he said he wouldn't do, working on the business side of the music industry. He joins this tech startup. They were trying to stream concerts online in grainy, early millennium quality Internet video.

[Craig Finn]

It was 2000. It was kind of its first Internet boom, you know, and it was kind of that time where there was a lot of Internet companies and there was like, no one knew how they were going to make money, but you ate cereal and sat in beanbag chairs. So I knew a lot of people that were doing gigs like that. And I moved on a Friday and I started on a Monday, and I didn't have the job when I moved.

[PJ Vogt]

He was 29 years old. He'd made peace with the idea that professional musician had just been a fun youthful dream. Was he miserable? No, of course not. He was fine. A couple years passed. He told himself he'd still write songs just for himself, just for fun. In fact, the story he started to tell himself was that maybe part of the problem with Lifter Poehler, his final artistic endeavor had just been that the fun of making music had been kind of ruined by ambition. So he and a few friends decide to start a new band with the explicit goal of not being successful, not taking off. Because he knows now that success or the desire to have success can be a kind of poison. So they make some ground rules.

[Craig Finn]

I mean, it was comical what we were talking about. One was that we weren't going to play any shows.

[PJ Vogt]

You didn't want to? Why?

[Craig Finn]

Because I surmised, perhaps correctly, that when you move the gear, that's when the trouble starts.

[PJ Vogt]

Wait, what does that mean?

[Craig Finn]

Like, once you get like. I mean, I think it was like, okay, so, you know, like in Lifter Puller, you go out and you, like, you want to be in a rock band, but, you know, you start out your rock band and. And you end up learning a lot about your van because it breaks down a lot, you know, and, like, suddenly, like, all your time is like auto repairs, you know, And I'm like, well, this wasn't exactly what I imagined it. Once you get, like, move the gear and get it in a van and go play a show. Then that's when the fighting starts between the band. Yeah. So I was like, well, if we just like drank beer on Tuesday nights and played, wouldn't that be like the most fun part of it? And then, you know, no pressure. But of course that wasn't going to work. So the second someone asked us to play a show, we're like, okay, yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

You know, this show, not a show exactly. This invitation for the least ambitious band in Brooklyn went thusly. Some guy had a comedy troupe.

[Craig Finn]

It's called Mr. Ass.

[PJ Vogt]

Mr. Ass.

[Craig Finn]

Yeah. And they were doing this thing at Arlene Grocery, and they're like, do you want to do like bumper music? Like, get a band together, do like, bumper music. It'll be like, you know, when we're changing sets, you'll play like Back in Black, no singing. So I was like, yeah, that sounds fun. That's something to do. So we go and do that and.

[PJ Vogt]

Are they doing like improv sketch?

[Craig Finn]

Yeah, yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

So they're doing improv. A scene ends and then you guys will play like.

[Craig Finn]

Yeah, and then. And then they like, you know. So we did that twice. And the second time they're like, hey, do you guys have any songs? You could just warm up the crowd, play a song. And I showed the guys Knuckles, which ends up being the first Hold Steady song we ever had. I've been trying to get people to call me Freddy Knuckles. People keep calling me right, said Fred. And it's hard to keep trying when half your friends are dying it's hard to hold it steady when half your friends are dead already. And so we played that, and that was, I guess, the first, first Hold Steady show. But then after two of those, we were like, yeah, you know what was the most fun part about that is when we played our own song.

[PJ Vogt]

Remember, they weren't gonna be ambitious. They weren't gonna turn this into a real thing. The trouble starts when you move the gear. But they were having fun, so they figured maybe they should just take the songs they were playing and record em. They made a demo. They kind of liked it. They made another. They realized, oh, you could sort of put these together. It'd almost be like an album.

[Craig Finn]

We just combined them and called it a record. But it was really started with demos and it.

[PJ Vogt]

Did it feel as easy like you're describing it as like, not accidental, but just breezy.

[Craig Finn]

I think I knew that there was a power in keeping it light or something, you know, or keeping it, you know, if you take whatever the opposite of desperation is. Yeah, I think people really react to that. And so we were kind of like, whatever, you know? Well, I mean, that was always my thing about how the whole study was going to operate, at least at the beginning. I was like, every time we have 10 songs, we'll call it an album. You know, like, in that way, you're not like, recording 25 songs and being like, which are the best? And how do we perfectly sequence them and how do we make our masterpiece? Like, nah, you know, we got 10 songs. Want to hear them?

[PJ Vogt]

It's so. There's, like, a part of my brain that refuses to accept this story, because I think that in my mind, things that succeed are the product of, like, worry and desperation and painfulness and, like, fussing and, like, it's so. It feels like you're praying to a different God than me.

[Craig Finn]

Well, we were. We were. I mean, we were the antithesis of something. You know, Like, a lot of the music that was happening there was really syncopated and pretty tight, and we were kind of this big, sloppy bar rock band. Kids with broken hearts and kids with broken bones, the kids with the kidney stones. And I think people were kind of, like, weirdly refreshed by. And it took pressure off in a way that, like, I don't know, maybe at that point in my life, I just didn't need pressure on the art.

[PJ Vogt]

When I was in my twenties, I was unhappy in a challenging job, and so I fell in love with this band called the Hold Study because they seemed like they were having fun at work, and I needed that to be true. What I didn't know then was that it was true, but it hadn't happened by accident. The singer, it turned out, had already learned a lesson that was about a decade away from me. The lesson was the desire to succeed can give you what you want, while at the same time removing your ability to enjoy it. And there's a secret power sometimes in just not trying so hard. In the early 2000s, as the band began to play shows, Craig Finn remained disciplined. He told anybody who'd listen, the Hold Steady was a bar band. A bar band like the ones you see in your hometown that play Journey covers and never hit the high notes. They were a bar band and nothing more. But the problem is the universe has a sense of humor. And so the band that was built to not succeed, obviously, they started, too.

[Craig Finn]

So with the Hold Steady, I thought we just, like, play these shows around town and we do this bard rock and. But eventually the bar started filling up. You know.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Craig Finn]

And the thing is, is when you're in New York, the press is inherently national, you know, like in Minneapolis, you were hoping for like the, you know, I mentioned the local weekly.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Craig Finn]

But then all of a sudden it's in Rolling Stone. And then, you know, booking agents want to talk, labels want to talk. And then I remember we decided to make our second record and the Village Voice did an article on it. And then we got word that they're putting us on the COVID And it was the first time a band had been on the COVID in a long time, a decade or something. And that was really experienced as a turning point. Felt like that's kind of when we all of a sudden things kicked into overdrive and we became the Hold Steady as like a real.

[PJ Vogt]

After the break, the Hold Steady becomes a real band and a real job. 20 years of a real job. How do you stay happy when you get the thing you want? When you find yourself in a situation that you're really not allowed to complain about.

[Craig Finn]

That punk with a mustache who brought us our breakfast never came back with a check. On our third day of driving with no expectations except some vague sounds to the west on the side of the road with our arms in the air Amazed by the size of the sky.

[PJ Vogt]

Foreign this episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Mint Mobile. If you're tired of big wireless carriers keeping your money, think about switching to Mint Mobile. You can say bye bye to your overpriced wireless plans. Jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages, Mint Mobile is here to rescue you with premium wireless plans starting at just 15 bucks a month. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop [e-mail] search that's mintmobile.com search upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required, equivalent to 15 bucks a month new customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by netsuite. What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get ten answers. Bull market. Bear market. Inflation's up or down. Can someone please invent a crystal ball. Until then, over 41,000 businesses have future proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle the 1 Cloud ERP bringing accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one fluid platform with one unified business management suite. There's one source of truth giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. If I had needed a product like this, this is the one I would have used. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities. Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com searchengine the guide is free to you at netsuite.com searChengine netsuite.com this episode is brought to you in part by Quints At Quint you can buy high quality, timeless pieces without spending a fortune. That's why Quint has become a go to for essentials that look and feel amazing without breaking the bank. Quince offers incredible options like 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at just $50, washable silk tops and dresses, organic cotton sweaters and even 14 karat gold jewelry. And the best part, their prices are 50 to 80% lower than similar luxury brands. And it gets even better. They only partner with factories that prioritize safe, ethical and responsible practices. I have been eyeing a cashmere sweater for these final chilly months of winter. They have some soft and cozy looking ones. Treat yourself to the luxury you deserve with quite quints. Go to quint.comsearch engine for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.comsearch engine free shipping, 365 day returns and affordable luxury. You don't want to miss it. Quint.com search engine I've thought about Craig Finn and his happiness since I was 23 years old and when I finally decided to interview him almost 15 years later, it was this March. It was the same time I was trying to figure out this show. The show you're listening to now. It's a funny feeling to be starting again. I made a podcast before it was successful. The success didn't feel the way I imagined it would. Getting what I thought I wanted didn't give me the feeling I told myself it would. It was like instead of crossing a finish line, the race just kept going. One problem was just that I had a very disorganized kind of ambition. Like if we did a great story and people liked it, somehow immediately that great story became competition That I felt like we had to outdo and quickly. And it was a little embarrassing, absurd even, to have found a dream job for myself and then to notice that I was just experiencing this pressure, not really enjoying it very much. So I just didn't think about it. I figured probably more success or external validation would solve these problems. Didn't work out that way. So starting this show, I was thinking a lot about that experience and very desperate not to recreate it. When I emailed Craig Fenn, I initially thought that what I was doing was kind of weird, asking him a question that belonged to a younger version of me. Does anyone like their job? Obviously, I now know that some people like their jobs. I have liked my job. But the more we talked, I realized, oh, no. My real question was actually a different, more pressing one. I wanted to know how ambitious people find a way to be happy. Like, how do you succeed without making your own misery part of the machinery of that success? Craig Finn is now 20 years into his job as frontman of the Hold Study. He says the job is fun, but that it's the kind of fun where the good parts of the job are obvious to everyone. And the harder parts of the job, those happen a bit off stage.

[Craig Finn]

There is a business aspect to the band as well as a musical performance. And, you know, that part can be hard.

[PJ Vogt]

And what does it look like when it's hard?

[Craig Finn]

Well, I mean, just standard money stuff, you know, I mean, like, here's an example. You book a show, it's in another state, and you make a budget, and when you go to book the flights, they're 30% more than what you budgeted for.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Craig Finn]

And you're like, oh, we aren't going to make very much money on this show, you know, and that's like a very sober 1pm conversation, you know. But it's pretty easy for me anyways to have that conversation and be a little disappointed at 1pm and then at 9pm when it's time to get on stage to turn up the amp and be like, well, this is great, this part's great. Still kind of bummed in the back of my mind about the 30% over budget on the flights, but, like, I can forget about that easily for the next two hours. Sometimes again, it's not ticket sales, it's the expenses, you know, or, you know, there's a lot of business stuff that. That is kind of boring, but it is part of being in the band, you know, and especially for me, as someone who gets involved in that.

[PJ Vogt]

And do you do you have times in your life where you think about, like, the alternate version of your life where you had stayed in a more, like, job. Job.

[Craig Finn]

Yeah, I do, because, you know, I turned 50. I'm 51 now. But, you know, like, when I get together with friends from college, I mean, like, the whole study has allowed me to do amazing things, but I'm certainly not anywhere near wealthy. And it's probably another path would have led me to more wealth or more stability or something. And so, yeah, when you're getting together with the guys at 51 and your friend's talking about sending this kid off to college, and then they're going to go down to their beach house and you're like, well, there's a part of me that says, that sounds nice. I understand. I didn't pursue that. But there is a part. It's like, wow, that does sound nice.

[PJ Vogt]

Are those like. And those are people who follow, like, more of, like, the AMEX path.

[Craig Finn]

Yeah, yeah. Some sort of traditional path.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah. It's funny, there's probably so many more people on the other side of it. People who pursued more, like, safety and convenience, who are sort of like, have, like, the faint ghost of, like, what if?

[Craig Finn]

Well, there's this funny thing that I was thinking of on the way over here because I, you know, I knew what we were gonna talk about a little bit, and every once in a while, I'd say, like, 10 times in my career, I've been cornered by this guy. A different guy each time, but a type of guy.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Craig Finn]

Who really has, like, these pointed questions about, like, what you have, and. And you get the feeling that he's trying to figure out, like, trying to make himself feel better, you know, like, what type?

[PJ Vogt]

What do you mean?

[Craig Finn]

Well, like, you know, so. So, like, how much money. How much money you guys make? You know, and it's like, wow, I'm not telling you. I'm. I just met you, you know, and.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Craig Finn]

Yeah. So when did you quit your job? Like, they really want to know, like, how this all works, and you get the feeling that's like, maybe they're trying to justify their own last 30 years or something, you know?

[PJ Vogt]

Interesting. Like, if they knew how much you made and they knew they made more.

[Craig Finn]

Then if they knew exactly how poor you were, they could feel better about themselves.

[PJ Vogt]

That's such a brutal conversation.

[Craig Finn]

I know. And it's really. It's like, dude, I. I'm. I'm getting away from you. But, like, there's. There's a type of guy, and let's Be honest. It's always a guy, yeah. That will really press for that.

[PJ Vogt]

This guy who has finagled his way backstage in order to harass a musician about how much money he has very badly behaved, we can all agree. But also, how different is he from me, really? The question he's asking about money is obnoxious. It's kind of rude. But underneath that question are other questions that I can't help but recognize. Am I doing any of this right? Are you happy? Why aren't I happy? I was told if I did everything right, I'd be happy. What happened? We only get to be here once, which is such a short time to learn anything at all. We're given these very confusing lives. It's normal to look at other people for clues, to wonder if maybe they figured something out. So you believe, you believe that it is possible to like your job?

[Craig Finn]

I absolutely do. I think that the hang ups really come, I don't want to say from ambition because I think ambition is healthy, but from this kind of envy or coveting. And I think that it's very easy to, like, no matter who you are and what you do, it's very easy for the goalpost to move, to be like, okay, well, like, oh, that band's selling out this room and we only sold out this room. It's like you sold out. Like there's like a thousand people here and they're really. They're all singing the words. So I think it's important to kind of train yourself not to, like, look at for that, you know, like, other shiny object. I mean, it's like things come and go, but I mean, it is also a very natural human instinct to be like, I want more. So I do think you have to kind of remind yourself to be grateful and be present in that moment. Every morning we burn the bread Walk it down to the water's edge See the seagulls eat cigarettes Check your breath in a spoon all your stuff in the storage shed Twisted sheets on the trundle bed and the antipsychosis meds Made you feel all maroons Last summer at.

[PJ Vogt]

The shore Craig Finn, lead singer of the Hold Steady. He says he's happy. I think I believe him. That's it for us this week. You can pick up a copy of the band's new oral history book celebrating their 20th anniversary. Written in collaboration with music writer Michael Hahn. It's called the Gospel of the Hold. How a Resurrection Really Feels. I also have for you. I've been really waiting my whole life to Say this. A long playlist of my favorite Craig Finn songs, including this one now that you're listening to. You can find them on my [e-mail] stick around after these ads. Craig Finn has a question he would like search engine to answer.

[Craig Finn]

Now. We snuck into the ballroom and made echoes in its empty. And I grabbed to you when I spun you and we both just started laughing.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, yeah, one more thing. Is there anything that you have a question about, any topic at all that you'd like me to look into?

[Craig Finn]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, all right.

[Craig Finn]

So my question on this is. This seems like somewhat. It's very anecdotal, but when I was growing up, it was considered kind of common knowledge that the first time you smoked weed, it didn't work. I remember this, and I always wondered if there's anything to that or if it's just the first time you smoked weed, you most likely got ahold of bad weed.

[PJ Vogt]

Right? Right. Cause I remember, first time I smoked weed, I was like 12 or 13, this guy Ned, and we smoked out of a film canister, and he told me, he's like, you're not gonna get high the first time. And I didn't get high. And then it was the second time. And the other thought I had was like, maybe I'm just doing this wrong. Like, I didn't smoke cigarettes. So.

[Craig Finn]

Right. Well, that was always the thing. But it also felt like the way they were explaining it that you're kind of like you're putting in the experience. You were making a deposit at the bank, and it was only the second time or the third time that it was gonna pay off.

[PJ Vogt]

Did you. The first time you smoked weed, did you get high?

[Craig Finn]

No.

[PJ Vogt]

Interesting.

[Craig Finn]

But I don't think it was the first few times.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Craig Finn]

And, you know, every once in a while you'd be like, some guy would be like, I got hired for the first time, and you kind of wouldn't believe him.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Craig Finn]

You know, so I'm wondering, now that we have all this legalization, I'm wondering if there's any science to this or any answer.

[PJ Vogt]

That's a really good question. Thank you.

[Craig Finn]

Yeah, thank you. Well, I hope we get an answer.

[PJ Vogt]

We'll see what we can do. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt and Shruti Pinamaneni and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Theme and original composition by Armin Bazarian. Fact checking by Elisabeth Moss. Show art by Ollie Moss. No relation. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss Berman and Leah Reese Dennis. Thank you to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perello and John Schmidt and to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Matt Casey, Casey Clauser, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Kurt Courtney and Hilary Schuff. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at uta. Our social media is by the team at Public Opinion NYC. You can follow and listen to Search Engine with PJVote now for free on the Odysee app on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening. We are off next week. We are back September 15th. You can always find our schedule at the newsletter pjvote.com.