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- [00:01]
Sponsor Announcer 1
This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income is not easy. Bond markets are massive, murky and let's be real, lots of firms throw a couple flashy funds your way and call it a day. But not Vanguard. Vanguard bonds are built with institutional quality in mind. And that's not just a tagline, it's a real commitment to delivering top tier products for your clients. With more than 80 bond funds managed by a global team of over 200 specialists, analysts and traders, you're getting depth and expertise at scale. And while some firms lean heavily on one star portfolio manager, Vanguard takes a team based approach. Instead of chasing risky returns, Vanguard focuses on consistency and long term reliability, helping smooth out the ride for your clients. So if you're looking to give your clients consistent results year in and year out, go see the record for yourself@vanguard.com audio that's vanguard.com audio all investing is subject to risk. Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distributor.
- [01:04]
Sponsor Announcer 2
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- [01:55]
Narrator (Lloyd Lockridge)
Our colleagues over at Odyssey, the network that distributes Search Engine, have a new show and we wanted to share an episode with you. The show's called Family Lore. Every family has stories that get passed down on this show. The host, Lloyd Lockridge investigates those stories to find out what's true in this one. The granddaughter of a prolific Jewish art collector who fled Europe during World War II embarks on a quest to recover looted art. Without further ado, let me play you host Lloyd Lockridge's interview.
- [02:26]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
So could you tell me your name and where you're from?
- [02:28]
Charlyn Von Sayre
Yes. My name is Charlene Von Sayre, and I was born in the UK and currently live in Connecticut in the US my family came over to the US on the QE2. My sister, my parents, and two dogs and the car, all on the QE2. I know my parents were happy and ready to start life in the US and we have been in Greenwich, Connecticut since 1975.
- [03:03]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
For Charlyn von Sayre, growing up in Connecticut was a pretty idyllic experience. She remembers learning how to ride her bike on Todd Lane, her parents running alongside her as she wobbled forward with nervous excitement in the winter. Charlyn's mother, Marai Von Sayer, a retired figure skater, taught her to ice skate.
- [03:22]
Charlyn Von Sayre
So when we joined the skating club, it was kind of a big deal for everyone to see my mom skate around. And then, you know, my sister and I took lessons there, and I continued because I liked it.
- [03:38]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
She liked it, and she was very good at it. As she got older, she began competing at a very high level, the highest, in fact. Charlyn and Nancy Kerrigan trained under the same coach. And in 1993, Charlyn won the gold medal at the British Championships. In 1994, she competed at the Olympics in Norway. But unlike her friend Nancy Kerrigan, Charlyn didn't represent the United States. Ultimately, she decided to represent England, her place of birth. And those probably weren't her only two options because Charlyn's background is somewhat complex. She was born in England to a father who was born in Amsterdam but raised in America, and a mother who was born and raised in West Germany, which no longer exists.
- [04:22]
Charlyn Von Sayre
Apparently. My first language was German, but when my sister and I entered school in the US we didn't understand anything because we were speaking German, and my mom said, no more German in the house, only English.
- [04:38]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
Despite losing the German, Charlyn was always aware of her European roots. As a young girl, she and her sister would go to Holland to visit their paternal grandmother, Daisy.
- [04:48]
Charlyn Von Sayre
I loved my grandmother Daisy very much. My sister and I visited her in the summers often.
- [04:57]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
And there in Holland, Charlyn would pick up bits and pieces about what her grandmother's life was like growing up.
- [05:03]
Charlyn Von Sayre
Her mother was a very famous soprano in Vienna, and Daisy grew up in Vienna amongst a very affluent inner circle. People like Freud, Klimt. Klimt, in fact, drew a portrait of her. And I think she learned her first, you know, brushstroke from him. Yeah, they were socializing among a very elite class.
- [05:33]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
Tell me, as a grandmother, what was she like?
- [05:36]
Charlyn Von Sayre
She was extremely generous, gracious nurturing, loving, warm and cozy. You know, she was that sort of warm and fuzzy grandmother, but a little bit fancier. She was easy to hug, let's put it that way.
- [05:54]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
And occasionally, Charlyn's grandmother would talk about life in the 1930s, when she was still married to Charlyn's grandfather, a man named Jacques Goudsticker. In a sense, Jacques was one of the reasons Daisy had moved back to Holland in the first place.
- [06:09]
Charlyn Von Sayre
I think she just felt perhaps closer to Jacques, who was her true love. But she spoke about Jacques and how wonderful he was and how much he would have loved us. She always said that. And she also told me that he loved food, and he would sort of satisfy his cravings by reading cookbooks.
- [06:37]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
So he was, like, way ahead of his time. Nowadays, everyone sits around watching the cooking channel or reels or whatever.
- [06:42]
Charlyn Von Sayre
Exactly.
- [06:44]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
And what else did she tell you about him?
- [06:45]
Charlyn Von Sayre
That he was romantic and, you know, gave her lots of beautiful little gifts and jewelry and was very loving. I don't know why, but I didn't think to ask more in depth questions, maybe because we were just enjoying each other's company and in the present. So I don't know why I didn't. And I do regret not asking more. But clearly she didn't want to tell me or talk about it, otherwise she would have.
- [07:20]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
But still, Daisy would take Charlynn and her sister down memory lane, and we
- [07:25]
Charlyn Von Sayre
would jump in her car and drive by Nine Rode Castle and Oostermere, which was their actual home that they lived in, and Herengracht458, which was my grandfather's place of business, his art gallery. And she would tell us that these properties were once hers. And I guess as a kid, I never understood then why they weren't still hers. And I do clearly remember she would look at me and my sister, and she called us like her suite. She would say, my sweet, things were different before the war. And that's really all I got from her on that.
- [08:15]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
As a child, Charlyn didn't quite understand why her grandmother was reserved in talking about the love of her life, Jacques. And she didn't pry. She had a loving relationship with Daisy, and that's all that really mattered to both of them. In 1996, when Charlyn was in her 20s, Daisy passed away, and Charlyn went to Europe to pay her respects. While she was there, Daisy, she obtained her grandmother's diary. And in the pages of that diary, Charlyn encountered for the first time a full picture of her grandmother's life, especially the aspects of her life she didn't want to talk about. Charlyn's grandfather, Jacques Goudsticker, did not merely run an art gallery. He was a prolific art collector, dealer and aficionado with arguably the most respected business in Amsterdam. Charlyn now had an intimate account of what happened to that business and what happened to Jacques.
- [09:09]
Charlyn Von Sayre
Everything started to come together. I understood why she didn't want to talk about things. I started to understand the magnitude of the situation and I just became really angry.
- [09:38]
Sponsor Announcer 1
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- [10:44]
Paul Post
Nerds.
- [10:44]
Sponsor Announcer 3
Today's episode is sponsored by NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast. Ever Google a money question and end up 12 tabs deep with 12 different answers? This podcast is your shortcut back to clarity. NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast breaks down financial decisions with a team of trusted journalists. They explain the why behind decisions like investing home buying and choosing credit cards. With clear research backed insights. No jargon, no misinformation, make your next financial move with confidence. Follow NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast on your favorite podcast app.
- [11:16]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
So prior to obtaining her grandmother's diary, there were details Charlyn knew about her grandmother's background. She knew that her grandmother, Daisy was in Holland when World War II broke out. She knew, of course, that because Daisy and Jacques were Jewish, they had to flee when the Nazis invaded. But the details were shrouded in mystery. Then, after Daisy passed away and Charlyn came into possession of the diary, the shrouds lifted and Charlyn got a firsthand account of their lives.
- [11:43]
Charlyn Von Sayre
I think they were, again, part of the upper class, and I truly believe that they didn't think the war would really affect them. They would not be, you know, taken to a concentration camp. Simon Goodman wrote a great book called the Orpheus clock. And it was quite evident in that book that a lot of the upper class Jews were even socializing before the war with people that ended up being Nazis, but it was just not even recognized. So I think they kept waiting and waiting because they really didn't think anything was going to happen.
- [12:31]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
Then, on the morning of May 10, 1940, Dutch citizens woke up to the roar of German bombers flying overhead toward the north sea. As the planes passed, the residents of Amsterdam would have assumed that the Luftwaffe was headed to England. But soon after passing by, the planes began to bank, turning 180 degrees, headed straight for the Netherlands. The Germans began dropping bombs and paratroopers all across the country.
- [13:00]
Charlyn Von Sayre
I can't say exactly when, but I have some translations of Daisy's diary, and she talks about how the atmosphere is changing and she is feeling unsafe. But Jacques doesn't want to leave. Doesn't want to leave everything that he's built with his business and his life there. But I guess at a certain point, they had no choice.
- [13:27]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
What was their route of escape?
- [13:29]
Charlyn Von Sayre
They took my grandfather's car. I think it was like a Lincoln zephyr or something like that. They had to leave it on the side of the road. There was too much traffic. And they ultimately made it on the last ship out.
- [13:46]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
Daisy and Jacques fled on May 14, 1944, days after the surprise invasion and one day before the Netherlands signed a capitulation agreement with Hitler, leaving the nation under full Nazi control. They left with only a few personal belongings, including a little black book which contained the inventory for all of Jacques art. Jacques kept the book in his jacket pocket, and strapped to Daisy's chest was Charlyn's father, Ado, who was only about a year old. Everything else, their beautiful home, the gallery, the furniture, the art, it was all left behind.
- [14:20]
Charlyn Von Sayre
There was a lot, a lot of beautiful things that were left behind. I mean, my grandmother packed like, a little beach bag and threw some jewelry in there and some diapers for my father, and they left.
- [14:37]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
With regard to these possessions, especially the art that was left behind, what becomes of it? What happens next to the art collection in particular?
- [14:46]
Charlyn Von Sayre
Hermann Guring had sort of scouted out all of the top art collections, I think, prior to the war. So he knew exactly where his first stops would Be. So Hermann Guring and Alois Miedel basically took over and stole all of the artwork. Miedel stayed and ran the gallery with Jacques, you know, entire infrastructure in place. Because he was very well respected.
- [15:18]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
The Nazis took over the gallery. They sold some pieces and looted others. The marvelous business Jacques ran was completely desecrated by Hitler's second in command, Hermann Goring, and a man named Alois Miedel. Miedel was actually married to a Jewish woman, and the couple had initially moved from Munich to Amsterdam for fear of rising anti Semitism in Germany. But as the Nazis invaded, Miedel was able to curry favor with Goering, and his Jewish wife was designated an honorary Aryan. And Alois Miedel not only commandeered Jacques gallery, he moved into the Goudsdicker home where he once hosted a gala to celebrate Hitler's birthday. But despite their best attempts, the Nazis did not erase all traces of Jacques Goudsticker because on the back of each painting there was a literal Goudsicker stamp of approval. It was a little red wax seal which guaranteed the authenticity of each individual work. And knowing the value of a Goud sticker imprimatur, the Nazis left the stamps alone.
- [16:22]
Charlyn Von Sayre
I didn't understand at the time why all the labels on the backs of the paintings weren't peeled off. You would think that would make sense. That way no one could recognize where they once belonged. But my grandfather had stickers and a red wax seal that he put on the back of each of the paintings. And they left those in place because it proved the value of the pieces since he was so well respected in the art field.
- [16:58]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
As the Nazis took control of Amsterdam, Jacques and Daisy were on board an England bound ship.
- [17:04]
Charlyn Von Sayre
And one evening, a couple of nights after they were on there, my grandfather went up on the deck for some air. And the lights were turned off because the boats were being torpedoed all around. And my grandfather fell into a hold and fractured his skull. And my grandmother was down below with my father and asked the crew members to find her husband. And ultimately one of the crew members also fell into the hold on top of. My grandfather did not die because he was cushioned by Jacques's body. And then my grandmother had to continue on the journey without her husband.
- [17:59]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
The ship arrived in Falmouth, England, but Daisy was not able to get off. This was because her passport was issued by Austria, where she was born, and she was considered an alien enemy. So Jacques's body was taken off the ship and Daisy was not allowed to accompany him.
- [18:15]
Charlyn Von Sayre
She was able to plan the funeral, though, in Falmouth. I think that's the southwestern coast. Beautiful, beautiful place. She was not allowed off the boat, and she made sure that he had a good spot overlooking the water and that they play his favorite song, which was Cole Porter's Night and Day at the funeral. And she was lucky because at that time, most people were just thrown overboard if they died,
- [18:50]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
man, that is just. You know, I'm just trying to imagine what your grandmother must have been thinking. I mean, weeks earlier, you know, life was great.
- [18:59]
Charlyn Von Sayre
Yeah, life was amazing. A few weeks earlier.
- [19:03]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
It's hard to fathom such a swift and devastating turn of events. It was spring in Amsterdam. I imagine the tulips were in full bloom, the cafes were exploding onto the sidewalk, and packs of cyclists poured through the streets like synchronized schools of fish. Daisy and Jacques were in love. They had a beautiful home, a thriving art business, a vibrant social life, and a newborn baby. And over the course of just four days, they have to leave it all behind. Then, after escaping by the skin of their teeth, Jacques, a loving husband and father, dies in a freak accident. And Daisy can't even be there to lay him to rest. The last time she sees him, he is being carried off a ship. Alone in a foreign land, and with little money and even fewer options, Daisy sets sail to the Americas.
- [19:54]
Charlyn Von Sayre
She continues on. She lands in Canada and spends some time there before making her way to New York. And that's. That's where they stayed for quite a while.
- [20:08]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
In 1945, the war finally ended, first in the European theater, as the Allies converged on Berlin. Hermann Goring, the Nazi leader who stole much of the Gouds ticker collection, surrendered in Bavaria upon his capture. He was carrying suitcases filled with stolen items and works of art. Without much delay, Daisy started the process of reclaiming her possessions. The Allies had already begun returning stolen items across Europe. But in Holland, things were not so simple.
- [20:39]
Charlyn Von Sayre
The Allies returned a lot of the art that they found in Germany and other places to the country of origin and those countries. Holland, in our case, was supposed to return everything to the rightful owners. And they did not do that.
- [20:56]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
And do we know why?
- [20:58]
Charlyn Von Sayre
I believe they felt that the transaction was voluntary and not involuntary. And they, I think, were more interested in their post war collections and kept things for themselves.
- [21:17]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
So following the war, the Dutch government made the case that much of the Goudsticker collection was legally sold and no longer owned by his estate. And because Jacques Goudsticker was deceased, they probably anticipated little resistance to that. Position.
- [21:31]
Charlyn Von Sayre
I mean, my grandmother was a young, single, at this point, Jewish woman. I think they just didn't think that she would fight.
- [21:41]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
They took the opportunity to portray this as a voluntary sale, which it was obviously a coerced sale. And because Jacques was no longer alive, they thought nobody would come back to reclaim it.
- [21:52]
Charlyn Von Sayre
Exactly.
- [21:53]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
And how much time and effort did she put into, you know, dealing with the Dutch government, recovering the art?
- [21:59]
Charlyn Von Sayre
She tried very hard until 1952, and she signed an agreement. But in the agreement, she specifically states that she does not agree with how things were handled and that she does not give up her rights to the gurring portion of the collection.
- [22:23]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
The gurring portion being the portion of the collection that was looted by Hermann Guring?
- [22:27]
Charlyn Von Sayre
Yes, the larger and more valuable portion of the collection.
- [22:33]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
Okay, so after signing that document, does she continue to try to track down the goering portion, or does that just prove too difficult?
- [22:42]
Charlyn Von Sayre
She ran out of money. She couldn't. You know, she was wealthy before the war, but not after, and she ran out of money. She couldn't spend all of her money trying to get her possessions back.
- [22:55]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
As you're learning this as an adult, you're learning about these incredibly tragic events. Your grandmother having this rich life. And I don't mean just money. I mean this very vibrant life that falls apart very rapidly, resulting in her having to flee with the love of her life, who dies on the voyage, and she has to go off on her own. I'm wondering, as you're learning all of that, how did it change the way you thought about your grandmother?
- [23:21]
Charlyn Von Sayre
I think that I really learned what a tough cookie she was, like, what a strong, independent woman she was and how sad she must have been. I know she was depressed a lot. I know that from my dad. And I mean, how could you not be?
- [23:46]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
At the time of daisy's death in 1996, Charlyn didn't know the half of this story. And her father, who probably knew more than her, died only six months after his mother, Daisy, after a long battle with leukemia.
- [23:58]
Charlyn Von Sayre
We were going about our lives, and a year after my father passed away, we received a call from a Dutch journalist named Peter Denhollander. And in so many words, he said, do you realize you have a claim against the Dutch government? And we looked at each other, and my sister was there, too. And we were not quite sure what he was talking about. So before we knew it, he was in Connecticut. He came over to our home, and we had, you know, a long discussion. And then he said, oh, do you have any of the paintings in your home. And we did. We had one small painting, and he said, can you please show it to me? And it was upstairs in my mom's bedroom. And we went up, and he took the painting off the wall and turned it around and showed us the back, which we had never done. We didn't even think to look at the back of a painting. And there was the red wax seal and the stickers that my grandfather used to identify his paintings. And Peter then explained to us that there were many, many more of these that were in the possession of the Dutch government that shouldn't be, and that we had a claim to them.
- [25:28]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
But how would Charlyn and her mother know which pieces of art to look for? Yes, there was the red wax seal, but what if those had been removed? And what about the more scattered and elusive portion that was looted by Hermann Goring? Finding them would be hard enough, even if they knew exactly what they were looking for. Well, to deal with that challenge, they were left with an item almost like a treasure map. It was something that Daisy had been holding onto since the day Jacques died. Until the day she died back in 1940. After Jacques died tragically on the boat he and Daisy had boarded to escape the Nazis, Daisy had to identify his body. And as she said her last goodbye to Jacques, she reached into his pocket and removed something from his jacket.
- [26:13]
Charlyn Von Sayre
When Jacques's body was recovered, Daisy had the wherewithal to take his little black book out of his jacket pocket, which inventoried the entire collection.
- [26:28]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
The entire collection. Jacques had recorded everything in this little black book, and Daisy had held onto it for all those years, maybe as a keepsake, a kind of totem that connected her to the love of her life. Or maybe because somewhere deep down, she knew that someone might someday pick up the torch.
- [27:01]
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- [27:34]
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- [27:59]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
Zootopia 2 has come home to Disney. Let's go get ready for a new case.
- [28:04]
Charlyn Von Sayre
We're gonna crack this case and prove we're victorious partners of all time. New threads New you are Gary the
- [28:10]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
snake and your last name. Desnake.
- [28:13]
Sponsor Announcer 2
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- [28:15]
Charlyn Von Sayre
Zootopia has a secret reptile population.
- [28:19]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
You can watch the record breaking phenomenon at home.
- [28:21]
Sponsor Announcer 4
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- [28:24]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
Zootopia 2 now available on Disney. Rated PG. When Charlyn and her mother embarked on this journey to recover their family's possessions, it was the late 90s. Information in general was not as accessible as it is today. And if you wanted something, you often had to go out and get it. When they were approached by the Dutch journalist Peter Denhollander, he invited Charlin to accompany him to the Washington archive to speak to an elderly archivist who knew a lot about wartime theft.
- [28:54]
Charlyn Von Sayre
And he pulled out after quite some time, came out with a large cart of files that some were. I mean, they must have been unclassified at the time, but they had the stamps on them originally that they were classified. And Peter and I started to go through them and yeah, that's where I saw some of the correspondence and the dealings that had gone on. And I think that is when I officially knew things were not taken care of properly after the war and that my family was not treated properly. I felt a little bit like an investigator. And Peter, who was an investigative journalist, we got to a point where we said, we can't keep doing this. Let's take what we have and let's move on. You know, let's go home. Let's come up with a plan on next steps.
- [29:56]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
And what plan did you come up with?
- [29:59]
Charlyn Von Sayre
So we went, my mom and I went back to Holland and we interviewed some attorneys. And one of them laughed at us and said, you will never get anything back that the Dutch government possesses now. Like, don't waste your time. But then we did find some attorneys that were great.
- [30:23]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
And around the same time, upon hearing that Charlyn and her mother were up to something, the Dutch government proactively reached out to the Von Sayers.
- [30:30]
Charlyn Von Sayre
I think we met at the Dutch consulate. They told us not to bring our attorney. They flew all the way to New York to discourage us from pursuing our claim and told us not to bring an attorney, but brought their attorney it was just very odd. And I think at that moment, we kind of realized they were scared, and it almost really fueled the fire.
- [31:00]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
But their first recovery did not come from the Dutch government. It was May of 2001, and Christie's was auctioning a piece of art by the Flemish painter Jan Wellens de Koch. The Von Sayers team cross referenced the painting, saw that it was on their list, and swooped in. Sure enough, there was a gap in the provenance and on the back of the painting, a red wax sticker. After 60 years, the painting was returned to its rightful owner, the descendants of Jacques Goudsticker. The title of the painting was the temptation of St. Anthony. That's St. Anthony, as in the patron saint of lost items.
- [31:40]
Charlyn Von Sayre
That first painting coming back sort of set the stage. It sort of made everything become a reality. And at least for me, I thought, okay, this really is happening. We really are going to do this. And if it's one piece at a time or a group of paintings from the Dutch government, whatever, we're going to keep going, and we're going to fight for this.
- [32:08]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
Right, so you've got some wind in your sails after this, Right? And what's the pace going forward? Are you recovering things all the time? Is it slow and steady?
- [32:17]
Charlyn Von Sayre
No, it's slow and frustrating. Yeah, very slow and frustrating. And I know my mother, at least along the way, sometimes felt like we should throw the towel in, but we didn't. And I think she's happy that we didn't. And she's been pretty strong along the way, and it worked out, and it's still working.
- [32:42]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
From 2001 to 2006, the paintings trickled in. It was frustrating, as Charlyn puts it. But in 2007, after almost 10 years of legal maneuvering, the Dutch government returned the Goud sticker collection to the von Sayers. 202 paintings worth millions. So I want to know what it was like to hang one of those paintings in your home.
- [33:08]
Charlyn Von Sayre
It felt like we had restored a little bit of my grandfather's legacy. We had corrected an historical injustice. It felt amazing to hold something in my hands that my grandfather once held and once loved. Yeah, it just. It was a very good feeling.
- [33:38]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
The Von Sayers are still tracking down pieces of art. Usually, something will appear at an auction, and in most, if not all cases, the art will have changed hands many times before it resurfaces. But to that rule, there is one very special exception. And it starts with our guest in the last episode, Paul Post. If you didn't have A chance to listen. Paul is a Dutch retiree who spent the last decade or so investigating a case of missing diamonds. The diamonds were stolen by Nazis from the Diamond Bourse in Amsterdam. And Paul's father, who worked at the Diamond Bourse, had left behind a diary and documents with various leads.
- [34:14]
Charlyn Von Sayre
It begins, I believe, with a gentleman, Paul Post, who had found a diary in his father's attic.
- [34:25]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
And very quickly the diary led Paul to a mysterious Nazi officer named Friedrich Katkin, who was an advisor to Hermann Goring. Paul believes that Kotkin made off with a significant sum of diamonds which he used to make safe passage to Argentina where he lived out the rest of his days.
- [34:41]
Charlyn Von Sayre
He saw this name in his father's diary and started to research. And he found that there were sales between him and Meadle.
- [34:55]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
To refresh your memory, Meadle was the man who took over the Goudsdicker collection and moved into the Goudsdicker home, among other abominations. In his research on the diamonds, Paul stumbled upon information that showed Meadle had sold a Goud sticker owned piece to Friedrich Kotkin. This is Paul Post.
- [35:13]
Paul Post
I found a database in Holland of the dealing with stolen art in war. And I went into that database and I looked for the name Katkin and I found two hits.
- [35:31]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
One of the hits was Portrait of a Lady by the Italian Baroque painter Giacomo Ceruti. Paul knew that Friedrich Khotkhin had a daughter who lived in Mar del Plata, a beach town south of Buenos Aires. So with the help of a Dutch journalist, he asked an Argentinian journalist to go down to Mar del Plata and see if Patricia Khatkine would be willing to answer any questions about the missing art.
- [35:52]
Paul Post
Well, that was a bit tricky because, well, you can ring on the bell but never open for questions to a journalist.
- [36:02]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
Patricia Kotke never answered the door. And pretty soon she wouldn't be expected to answer the door because apparently Patricia was hoping to move. There was a for sale sign in the front yard. So out of idle curiosity, the journalist went on the listing and started perusing pictures of the home.
- [36:20]
Paul Post
They went to the website for the estate agency and they saw all the pictures of the interior of the house. And on one of the pictures I saw the painting hanging.
- [36:32]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
In a photo of the living room hanging above a green velvet couch in the home of Friedrich Kotkin's daughter was the missing Portrait of a lady painting.
- [36:42]
News Reporter
An Italian painting stolen by the Nazis from a Jewish art dealer in Amsterdam has been spotted on the website of an estate agent. Selling a house in Argentina more than 80 years after it was taken. An online photo shows it's a good story.
- [36:59]
Charlyn Von Sayre
It is just amazing that this painting was found in the manner that it was found. Some experts did a formal report and have also confirmed that it is the painting that once belonged to my grandfather and was stolen by the Nazis.
- [37:25]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
I guess I want to ask, you know, does this portrait of a lady case feel like just another case, just another retrieval, or does this one feel different?
- [37:34]
Charlyn Von Sayre
This one feels a little bit different for me because the painting has been in the hands of a Nazi's daughter for all of these years. A lot of the other paintings that we've recovered along the way, people perhaps bought in good faith and didn't know. Not everyone, but some of them. And this one, again, I don't know how much this woman knew about her father and his past, but she is the daughter of a Nazi and he stole possessions. And I'm sure, I mean, he was a Nazi, he indirectly murdered a lot of people. So it just feels a little bit closer to history rather than the pieces that have changed hands over the years. This one hasn't really changed hands.
- [38:37]
Interviewer (Lloyd Lockridge)
As of March 20, 2026, the painting is still in the custody of Argentinian officials. Charlyn and her attorneys are working to have the painting returned. Patricia Kotgen did not respond to our requests for an interview. To date, Charlyn and her mother have recovered about 350 works of art, roughly a third of Jacques Goudsicker's collection. It's not a bad start. Thank you for listening to Family Lore.
- [39:19]
Narrator (Lloyd Lockridge)
This episode was originally broadcast on Family Lore. You can find it wherever fine podcasts are vended. It was written and narrated by Lloyd Lockridge, executive produced by Lloyd Lockridge and Leah Rees Dennis. Their lead producer and sound editor is Zach Clark. Their story editor is Katie Mingle. Additional sound, editing, mixing and mastering by Chris Basil and production support by Sean Cherry. Special thanks to Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, Hilary Schaff, and Laura Berman. We'll see you later this week with a new episode of Search Engine.