The Cuddly Killer (classic)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Cuddly Killer (Classic)"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Search Engine
• Host: PJ Vogt
• Episode: The Cuddly Killer (Classic)
• Release Date: July 18, 2025

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Introduction

In the classic episode titled "The Cuddly Killer," host PJ Vogt delves into the complex and polarized debate surrounding free-ranging cats and their impact on ecosystems. The episode explores the unintended consequences of cat populations on wildlife, particularly birds, and examines the contentious dialogue between ecologists and cat advocacy groups.

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The Ecological Impact of Free-Ranging Cats

Timestamp: [00:00 – 04:03]

PJ Vogt sets the stage by highlighting recent actions taken by various regions to control cat populations. From Iceland imposing curfews on cats to New York City banning outdoor cats, the episode underscores a growing global concern over the ecological footprint of cats.

Notable Quote:

"Invasive species are foreign species who are introduced to an ecosystem and, rather than benignly adapting to it, cause damage and disruption."
— Narration [00:00]

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Expert Interview: Dr. Peter Mara

Timestamp: [05:56 – 10:12]

Dr. Peter Mara, Dean of the Earth Commons at Georgetown University's Institute for Environment and Sustainability and co-author of "Cat: The Devastating Consequences of a Cuddly Killer," offers an in-depth analysis of the issues at hand. He discusses the domestication of cats approximately 10,000 years ago and contrasts it with the longer history of dog domestication.

Notable Quotes:

"We realized that we needed to take dog ownership much more seriously. People were being bitten by dogs. Dogs were carrying rabies."
— Dr. Peter Mara [10:03]

"Why aren't we doing it with cats? Why are cats allowed to roam free?"
— Dr. Peter Mara [10:28]

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Historical Context: Forbush's Early Warning

Timestamp: [11:50 – 12:11]

The conversation traces back to the early 20th century when Edward Forbush, an ecologist and ornithologist, first highlighted the significant mortality cats cause to wild birds. His 1916 publication, "The Domestic Cat: Bird Killer, Mouser and Destroyer of Wildlife," estimated that cats in Massachusetts were responsible for killing approximately 700,000 birds annually—a figure he deemed conservative.

Notable Quote:

"No animal that it can reach and master is safe from its range. Ravenous clutches."
— Edward Forbush [12:11]

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The Academic Backlash: Dr. Stanley Temple's Study

Timestamp: [13:33 – 15:48]

Dr. Stanley Temple’s 1990s study in Wisconsin estimated that free-ranging cats killed between 1.3 billion and 4 billion birds annually in the United States. This alarming estimate sparked outrage among cat advocates, resulting in personal attacks and death threats against Dr. Temple and Dr. Mara.

Notable Quotes:

"He received death threats. He was challenged. And it was really simple math. It really wasn't anything complicated."
— Dr. Peter Mara [14:32]

"I have a hard time scaling it up."
— Dr. Peter Mara [54:07]

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Cat Advocacy: Alley Cat Allies and Becky Robinson

Timestamp: [19:09 – 34:28]

Alley Cat Allies, founded in 1990 by Becky Robinson, stands as the most prominent cat advocacy group. Robinson emphasizes the importance of Trap-Neuter-Return (TNR) programs as a humane solution to control cat populations without resorting to euthanasia. The organization promotes coexistence strategies, such as using bells on cat collars and establishing catios—enclosed outdoor spaces for cats.

Notable Quotes:

"Cats have always lived around us and they are always going to live around us outside. That's a fact of life."
— Becky Robinson [20:10]

"We are correcting a horrible myth. And this myth is that the only way a cat can live is indoors. And that's just not correct."
— Becky Robinson [20:28]

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Conflict and Extremism in the Debate

Timestamp: [24:38 – 32:59]

The episode highlights the extreme reactions from cat advocates against studies that quantify the ecological damage caused by free-ranging cats. The failure of a proposed measure in Wisconsin to cull unowned cats is examined, including the role of misinformation and personal attacks in stalling conservation efforts.

Notable Quotes:

"It's a fight about humans and data, about people refusing to believe each other's charts."
— PJ Vogt [27:06]

"Were you say, Monday, 11:06 pm, line one: you, eight, cat murdering bastard. What goes around comes around. I declare Stanley Temple season open."
— PJ Vogt [27:06]

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Alternative Perspectives: Calden’s Balanced View

Timestamp: [43:09 – 57:18]

Introducing Calden, an 11-year-old ornithology enthusiast and cat owner, the episode provides a nuanced perspective. Calden acknowledges the harm cats can cause to birds but also recognizes the challenges in restricting cat freedoms. His practical suggestions, such as using bells on cat collars to protect bird populations, offer feasible solutions that bridge the gap between conservationists and cat lovers.

Notable Quotes:

"Having to change the way of them escaping all the time was fun because they always found a new way to escape."
— Calden [47:21]

"If you feed them in the morning or at the night, you want to do that at the same time."
— Becky Robinson [22:01]

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Proposed Solutions and Future Directions

Timestamp: [50:50 – 55:03]

Dr. Mara discusses innovative solutions like leashed cat walking and the increasing popularity of catios, which allow cats to enjoy the outdoors without posing a threat to wildlife. He emphasizes the importance of changing individual behaviors to create a cumulative positive impact on ecosystem conservation.

Notable Quotes:

"When we change, all this is possible."
— Dr. Peter Mara [50:50]

"These cats that are outdoors are not doing well. These cats have injuries. These cats have diseases."
— Dr. Peter Mara [36:15]

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Conclusion

The episode underscores the intricate balance between human affection for cats and the imperative to protect vulnerable bird populations. It highlights the necessity for informed, compassionate solutions that accommodate both animal welfare and ecological integrity. By featuring voices from both sides of the debate, including a young advocate like Calden, "The Cuddly Killer" fosters a deeper understanding of the complexities involved and the urgent need for collaborative action.

Notable Quote:

"It's happening in lots of places."
— Dr. Peter Mara [51:50]

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Final Thoughts

"The Cuddly Killer (Classic)" serves as a compelling exploration of the contentious relationship between free-ranging cats and wildlife conservation. Through expert insights, advocacy perspectives, and the fresh viewpoint of a young enthusiast, the episode encourages listeners to contemplate the broader implications of their choices and the collective responsibility to preserve our natural heritage.

Transcript

[PJ Vogt]

Hey everybody, it is July. We're gonna have new episodes of Search Engine for you in August, but this month we're rebroadcasting some of our absolute favorite classic episodes. This episode was from pretty early in our show's run, and this story in particular was less listened to than at least we think it deserved. It's just a very weird, complicated, unintended consequences, no easy moral choices story. Also, it's about animals, a topic which if you've listened to Search Engine, you know we care deeply about animals. It also includes my favorite expert voice we've ever had on the show, a very surprising voice who I do not want to spoil for you in case this is your first time listening. My theory about this one is that it did not get listened to enough because we may have given it a slightly too anodyne title. It originally aired as what Are We Going to Do about all these Cats? So we're giving it a slightly spicier title to see if that more deeply pleases the gods of the Internet. But other than the title, you are hearing the story as it originally aired. After these ads, our story, this episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Harry's. Staying well Groomed takes the most reliable of hair and grooming tools, and Harry's is your trusted partner for making a good first impression. I'm an intermittent shaver. I'm a sometimes shaver. I got a set of Harry's razors and I am shaving slightly more often because it's comfortable and easy. They're really nice razors. Harry's offers German engineered blades made in their own factory that stay sharp longer and customizable delivery options for scheduled refills as low as $2, half of what you pay for other big brands. Get a five blade razor weighted handle, foaming shave gel and a travel cover for just 8 bucks plus a free [e-mail] search normally their trial set is $10, but right now you can get it for just 8 plus a free [e-mail] search that's our exclusive link. Harry's.com search for an $8 trial set and a free gift. This episode is brought to you in part by Factor. Summer is busy in the best way. Travel, sunshine, family time. All the things we wait for all year. The last thing I want to do is spend hours planning meals, which is why I'm glad I found Factor. Factor delivers fresh, never frozen meals that are ready in just two minutes. Two minutes and I have actually eaten them. They're pretty good. With 45 meals to choose from every week, there's something for everyone. Whether you're focused on fitness, watching calories going keto, or just want a break from cooking Factor makes it easy. I tried their shrimp and grits and their bison meatballs. Both were very tasty and kept me full for hours. If you're ready for food that fits your life, get [e-mail] search 50 off and use code search 50 off to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. That's code search 50 off at factory meals.com search 50 off for 50% off plus free shipping. Factory meals.com search 50 off I recently learned that the Polish Academy of Sciences has declared that cats are an invasive alien species. Invasive species are foreign species who are introduced to an ecosystem and, rather than benignly adapting to it, cause damage and disruption. The Burmese pythons who terrorize the Florida Everglades. The feral hogs who wreak havoc through Texas. But there was something strange about hearing that cats had been added to the ranks. It wasn't just Polish scientists making that determination, though. Globally, there appears to be some sort of cat backlash brewing.

[Becky Robinson]

It's 10pm do you know where your cat is?

[PJ Vogt]

In Iceland, cats have been put under curfew. New York City has imposed an outright ban on outdoor cats. Well, controversy has erupted in Canterbury over a children's hunting competition. In New Zealand, a contest was announced where children would compete for a cash prize for killing feral cats. Hunters under 14 are being offered $250 for whoever can kill the most feral cats, although the contest was shut down in the face of not terribly surprising criticism. Once you start paying attention though this conversation about cats, it seems to be happening everywhere.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

There is a cat problem in southeast Memphis. Cats are overrunning one neighborhood in Dany.

[John Dennevy]

Beach for people living in one Phoenix neighborhood.

[PJ Vogt]

That's spot in Cherokee county where neighbors.

[John Dennevy]

Are seeing not one, not two people living in a central Bakersfield neighborhood are calling it a stray CA crisis in 23 ABC's John Dennevy.

[PJ Vogt]

Across the country, there's a growing recognition that cats are a problem for the ecosystems in which they find themselves. But nobody seems sure what to do about it. So this week on Search Engine, we're asking a question that has begun to bother us. What are we going to do about all these cats? And we're going to start with a person who's been wrestling with this question for years, Dr. Peter Mara, Dean of the Earth Commons, Georgetown University's Institute for Environment and Sustainability and the Co author of the book Cat the Devastating Consequences of a Cuddly Killer, which is a very good subtitle. Should I call you Pete? Peter? Dr. Mara, what's your preferred doctor?

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Dean. I'm a new dean, so you gotta call me. I'm just kidding. I am a new dean, but I like Pete. I hate when the students call me professor here. I said, my name's Pete. My name's not professor, and I don't want to be called doctor or dean. It's like, call me Pete. Okay, I much prefer that.

[PJ Vogt]

And what is. Just like, what is your relationship as a human being? What is your relationship to cats?

[Dr. Peter Mara]

I've owned a cat. I've owned an indoor cat. Its name was Tuckus. I had tuchus when I was in college. We adopted it from a shelter. I've never owned a cat since then. And I've got nothing against cats. I'm an ecologist, and I love animals. I'm an animal advocate.

[PJ Vogt]

You say this like a person who perhaps has been accused of not being.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Oh, yeah, 100%. 100%.

[PJ Vogt]

Perhaps you can detect a frisson of tension here. Pete has, in fact, been accused of not being an animal advocate. Accusations like this are surfacing because there's an underlying war going on here, one of those small but hot wars that exist on the fringes of American life. A highly polarized debate that has its origins in a relationship that began 100 centuries ago. So just to even go before the origin of the problem, can you just tell me, how did the wild cats become house cats? How did that happen?

[Dr. Peter Mara]

So as the story goes, and it really is just a hypothesis, cats were domesticated around 10,000 years ago. And they were domesticated, it's thought, somewhere in a place called the Fertile Crescent, which is sort of like around Egypt in that area. And 10,000 years ago was about the same time when we were building houses, starting to live in structures, starting to store grains and water. And when you start to create new ecosystems, in this case human ecosystems, you start to attract other organisms like mice and birds that are attracted to that stored food and to that stored water. There are wild cats in those same areas that started to come into those areas because of food. It's not clear if they were captured and then bred or if they were just sort of slowly domesticated over time. But over, you know, many, many generations, cats eventually became domesticated into pets.

[PJ Vogt]

What is the difference, do you know, between sort of cats and dogs, to me, feel like they're at different levels of domestication. Like, is that True, or is that even an answerable question?

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Oh, it is. So dogs have been domesticated. It's estimated 40,000 years ago, and cats were domesticated around 10,000 years ago. And in fact, when you look at the number of breeds of dogs versus the number of breeds of cats, there are a lot more dog breeds than there are cat breeds, just because of the amount of time that people have had to domesticate and breed different types of dogs.

[PJ Vogt]

I should probably tell you something about myself, which is just I've always had dogs. I've never had a cat. I have a severe cat allergy. I did once try to get my hands on an experimental cat allergy vaccine story for another time, but it didn't work out. And I've never had a cat as a pet. I appreciate cats. I like how they seem not completely tamable, sometimes even a little majestic. I actually asked Pete about this. The vibe I get even around domesticated house cats is just like, they seem to have a. They just seem half wild. They seem to have, like, a less subservient relationship to the humans that they live with than the miniature goldendoodle that I spend my life with. Like, he just seems to have the connection between him and a wolf just feels much further to me.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Absolutely. And that independence that that cat brings to people's lives is in some ways what attracts people to them, because they actually seeing a certain type of behavior in that animal that they almost would see in the wild. When I was growing up in the 60s and 70s, there were dogs running around all over the place. And it was because of rabies that I think people started to realize that we needed to get dogs on leashes and get collared and get licenses for dogs. And we realized that we needed to take dog ownership much more seriously. People were being bit by dogs. Dogs were carrying rabies. Dogs were the number one domesticated species to transmit rabies. Now guess who is the number one domesticated species to transmit rabies?

[PJ Vogt]

I'm gonna guess that it's cats.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Yeah, that's right. Because we've gotten dog ownership under control.

[PJ Vogt]

And prior to the 50s and 60s, it would have been normal in, like, an American suburb that you would just see, like, a wandering dog or a pack of wandering dogs.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Yeah. I grew up in the coast of Connecticut, in Norwalk, Connecticut, and we adopted several dogs that we just found on the streets. No owners. And then, you know, I think what's happened over time is after we got the dog thing under control, where you had to have your dog licensed and you needed to demonstrate that it had a rabies vaccine. It's all registered now. You know, one of my things is like, we did it with dogs. Why aren't we doing it with cats? Why are cats allowed to roam free?

[PJ Vogt]

Just to say, in most of America, owned cats are required to have rabies vaccines. And while cats may carry more rabies than any other domesticated animal, in absolute terms, the number of rabies exposure cases by cats is actually quite low. Pete will also point to the fact that cats are a vector for toxoplasmosis. A fascinating parasite can be dangerous to a fetus if you're pregnant, but it exists and society functions. I think Pete's driving concern here isn't so much the risks that too many free ranging cats pose to humans, it's the risk these cats pose to a different animal, birds. So at what is the point where some people in America started to think like, hey, there's a problem with our relationship with cats. Like, I became aware of this very recently. I'm assuming this idea has more of an intellectual history than me noticing it. Like, when does it start?

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Yeah, it's interesting because it was actually in the late 1800s, early 1900s, when a guy by the name of Forbush started to write about and estimate the mortality the cats cause on wild birds.

[PJ Vogt]

Forbush.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Forbush. F O R B U S H from Massachusetts.

[PJ Vogt]

So the first person to sound the alarm was a bird expert? Yeah, presumably a bird lover.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Yeah, he was an ecologist and an ornithologist was probably what he did mostly. And he's tried to sound the alarm multiple times.

[PJ Vogt]

Edward Forbush wrote about cats with the same vivid, blood spattered language that true crime podcasters use when they rewrite the Wikipedia pages of serial killers. In his book, the Domestic Cat Bird Killer, Mouser and Destroyer of Wildlife Means of Utilizing and Controlling it, published in 1916, Forbish describes the cat's threat to wildlife thusly, quote, no animal that it can reach and master is safe from its range. Ravenous clutches, end of quote. Back in 1916, Forbush estimated that cats were killing 700,000 birds per year in a single state, Massachusetts. And he considered that to be a conservative estimate. Since then, many ecologists have tried to estimate the number of birds killed by cats, both by outdoor house cats and by free ranging, unowned cats. Over the decades, they've come up with different numbers measured in different places. But more than that, they've gotten an increasingly different response as the question itself has become more polarizing. Pete told me a story about what happened to an academic he knew who published one of these surveys in the 1990s?

[Dr. Peter Mara]

His name is Dr. Stanley Temple. He's now retired from the University of Wisconsin. He did a first estimate and the number of animals, birds and small mammals that he estimated were being killed by cats a year in Wisconsin, you know, shook everybody at their core.

[PJ Vogt]

When Dr. Temple conducted his study, he estimated that there were conservatively around 1.4 million free ranging cats in Wisconsin and that each of those cats was killing, on average, an estimated 5.6 birds per year. This would mean that something on the order of 7.8 million birds are killed by free ranging cats in Wisconsin per year. A number which elicited a very strong reaction from cat advocates.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

He received death threats. He was challenged. And it was a really, it was really simple math. It really wasn't anything complicated.

[PJ Vogt]

Wait, sorry. He received death threats?

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. As have I, many from cat owners. Cat advocates.

[PJ Vogt]

And what did they. Why do they want to kill you?

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Because they see people that are making a claim that cats are having a negative impact on the environment as something that's threatening cats. They see this as something that will actually get people to kill cats. They see it as an argument for removing cats from the landscape and they recognize that there's not many solutions out there that are good for cats. When my book came out, there was definitely a campaign on Amazon to get as many people to attack my book as possible. I got written letters, lots of written letters from all over the world. I had phone messages, people threatening me. One cat advocacy organization showed up at my previous employer's main building with a box of signed petitions, tried to convince them to, to get me fired. This is, you know, in many ways it's all out war and it has been for a long, long time.

[PJ Vogt]

We're going to return to the story of the Wisconsin cats and the death threats. But first I want to tell you about the other side, the cat advocates. That's after the break. This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Framer. Hit publish. Framer ships your site worldwide in seconds. While DIY website tools are everywhere, most fall short on design and performance. Framer changes that with a single user friendly platform that delivers developer level results without writing a single line of code. Static pages are out. Make your designs move and convert. With Framer, it's free to start. You can browse 700 pixel perfect templates or design from a fully blank canvas. Real time collaboration means your editor, means your writer, designer and marketer can all tweak the same page at once. No version control nightmares built in AI handles the heavy lifting under the hood you get responsive breakpoints, edge hosting, ssl, SEO that works, a flexible CMS with inline editing and privacy friendly analytics. So long cookie Banner Ready to build a site that looks hand coded without hiring a developer? Start free [e-mail] Search Go to Framer.com Search to start building a website for free. Framer.com Search this episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by LinkedIn. As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24 7. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place. I have actually tried posting a job to LinkedIn jobs. It is exactly as easy as they advertise. LinkedIn's new feature can actually help you write job descriptions and then quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights. Either post your job for free or pay to promote promoted jobs. Get three times more qualified applicants. At the end of the day, the most important thing to your small business is the quality of candidates. And with LinkedIn you can feel confident that you're getting the best. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses using LinkedIn say that LinkedIn helps them find high quality candidates. Find out why more than two and a half million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com PJSearch that's LinkedIn.com PJSearch to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Welcome back to the show. The national cat advocacy movement is actually pretty recent. It really took off in the 90s. One of the movement's early battles was against animal shelters that euthanize cats. They can't find homes for those shelters are much rarer today. Cat advocates are part of the reason for that. If the phrase no kill shelter exists in your head, that's partly because of that movement. The biggest, most organized of the cat advocacy groups is A Eleveny Cat allies, founded in 1990 in Bethesda, Maryland by a woman named Becky Robinson, the longtime face of the organization.

[John Dennevy]

Good morning. My name is Becky Robinson. I'm the president and co founder of Alley Cat Allies, and we reached out.

[PJ Vogt]

To Alley Cat Allies for an interview with Becky Robinson. But after a brief exchange, the PR person stopped Replying. However, Alley Cat Allies is very active on social media and YouTube. There's tons of posted talks so you can get a sense of where they're coming from.

[John Dennevy]

Everybody knows that cats have been living around us for 10,000 years. They are the only domesticated species, domestic animal that is self domesticated.

[PJ Vogt]

Becky Robinson is speaking here at the 2015 no Kill conference in Austin, Texas. She's a middle aged woman with short auburn hair. In photos, she's almost always smiling, usually petting a cat.

[John Dennevy]

You can see that this is just a timeline that I'm showing on the screen here that they've lived around us even long before we knew that they were domestic cats in Egypt. They were actually thousands of years prior to. We have now have research to show that they lived around people and their domains.

[PJ Vogt]

It's fascinating. In this talk she's essentially telling a similar multi century history of the human cat relationship that Pete Mara told me. Although her version of the story ends with a different moral.

[John Dennevy]

So cats have always lived around us and they are always going to live around us outside. That's a fact of life. It doesn't have to be a sad fact, it's just a fact.

[PJ Vogt]

She says that cats living around us outside, whether they're pet cats or not, outdoor cats are just an inalienable law of the universe. Something that has never changed. Something that can never change.

[John Dennevy]

So here they are, there's millions of unowned cats. And so this is what we have to keep in mind, that what we're doing at, at what we're doing every day at Ally Cat Alleys and what all of you doing are out in the field is that we're correcting a horrible myth. And this myth is that the only way a cat can live is indoors. And that's just not correct.

[PJ Vogt]

So that's what, so that's the idea. Cats have a right to live freely outside. And if you're sold on this vision, Alley Cat Allies has videos explaining how to make your neighborhood a nice place for unowned outdoor cats to live. This is from my personal favorite video which explains how to have the talk with your neighbors. Neighbors who might come to you because they're upset about the new cat colony that's been pooping and peeing in their yards.

[John Dennevy]

It's pretty typical for people to have a concern that cats are going in their garden or using their yard as a litter box. If you are the person who's caring for the cats, there is going to be a time when someone might approach you in your neighborhood. And you should look upon that as a very good thing. If they're expressing some concerns.

[PJ Vogt]

The video is fairly elaborate. There's an actor demonstrating how to properly nod and listen as your neighbor expresses their concerns. Becky Robinson offers her a playbook for best practices for caring for the cats. It starts normally enough. She suggests you get them on a regular feeding schedule for them.

[John Dennevy]

So if you feed them in the morning or at the night, you want to do that at the same time.

[PJ Vogt]

Every day, she says you should practice, trap, neuter, return, meaning trap the cats and pay to have them neutered.

[John Dennevy]

You are getting those cats to a community cat veterinarian where they're going to be sterilized and vaccinated and ear tipped.

[PJ Vogt]

You then return them to the neighborhood where they now permanently live. Once they're there, the video suggests you might go into your neighbor's garden and place deterrents there to keep the community cats from digging things up.

[John Dennevy]

You might have coffee grounds to put in the soil that distracts cats.

[PJ Vogt]

As the train of friendly suggestions continues to. It does gradually dawn on you, the viewer, that this all assumes you are willing to substantially reorient your life in your new role as self appointed ambassador for a cat colony.

[John Dennevy]

You know, you may have to purchase a few things. I've been known to actually buy bags of river rocks and putting them in gardens, and that keeps cats out of the gardens from digging. Or this scat mat.

[PJ Vogt]

Perhaps your neighbor owns a fancy sports car and you suspect that cats might be tempted to go on it. Well, Becky Robinson has a solution for that too.

[John Dennevy]

And if it's a brand new car and someone's very proud of it, you might need to buy a car cover. So you might want to bring the products over and help your neighbor set them up or offer to set them up.

[PJ Vogt]

It's easy to make fun of all this, and I guess I am. There's just something about imagining someone opening the door to their neighbor, handing them a car cover for their yellow Mercedes and explaining, cats have lived outdoors for 10,000 years. It's never going to stop. But I went to the store and I bought you some river rocks and this car cover, you can use it every time you park. It's just a lot. I also recognize that this is compassionate, arguably communitarian behavior from the alley cat allies.

[John Dennevy]

And that's being neighborly, maybe asking, calling alley cat allies to find that inner peace and those ways to communicate, because you really are the voice for the cats. They don't have anybody else.

[PJ Vogt]

What you will not find on the Aycat Allies website is a video with suggestions about how to protect your neighborhood birds from your new neighborhood cats. And that's because the organization doesn't believe that cats are a serious threat to birds. Presented with numbers from ecologists like Pete Mara, Aleekat Allies says those numbers are, quote, false data. This entire story of cats versus birds, it's really a fight about humans and data, about people refusing to believe each other's charts. And that fight took center stage in the story of Stanley Temple that former colleague Pete Mara told us about. The one who got death threats. Remember, Stanley Temple had published estimates about the amount of bird deaths in Wisconsin in the late 1990s. Here's Temple.

[John Dennevy]

We began our work which was aimed not at justifying persecuting cats, but simply to understand what the ecological impacts of the large number of free ranging cats in rural Wisconsin might be.

[PJ Vogt]

This is from a 2008 documentary called Here Kitty Kitty, about a fight in Wisconsin over a proposed measure that would allow for uncollared, unowned cats to be killed in the wild. Stanley Temple himself didn't personally endorse that measure, but he does appear in the documentary. Temple is a mild mannered, bespectacled academic with a vest and a beard. You're going to hear some of the death threats against him in a moment. But for now, what I marvel at is how unlikely to inspire death threats this person seems.

[John Dennevy]

Grassland birds in Wisconsin were declining very significantly. They were becoming probably one of the.

[PJ Vogt]

Most.

[John Dennevy]

Significant groups of declining birds for conservationists to worry about in the state. And all of the dimensions, all of the reasons for those declines in grassland birds were not fully understood. So the role of cats was perhaps a logical question.

[PJ Vogt]

What role did Alley Cat Allies is not in this documentary, though they have released a statement attacking Temple's research. In the film, the activist side is represented by a local pet store owner running a website called don'tshootthecat.com. he also has a lot to say about Stanley Temple's research.

[Stanley Temple]

Wow. I would certainly like to work on making sure that, that we correct some of the misimpressions that have been left out there, especially when it comes to those numbers. First of all, a feral cat is not a wild cat. It's just an unsocialized domestic cat. And our animal cruelty laws currently in Wisconsin protect those cats. And so what we want to do is really make sure that we had good science before we went into this and we looked at.

[PJ Vogt]

The advocate makes it clear that he does not trust Dr. Temple's research. He raises insinuations about the source of Temple's funding, about the pedigree of the journals who would publish this kind of work.

[Stanley Temple]

And those numbers you referred to are the Dr. Stanley Temple study are highly questionable. And as you said, those are estimates and they're not at all scientific data. This is not published scientific data we're talking about. This is a study, not a study at all, in fact a report that was published over 10 years ago. This is not new information. It's completely based on estimates that are wildly exaggerated. It's really based on the relationship between Dr. Stanley Temple and the American Bird Conservancy, which is probably the most rabidly anti cat special interest lobby group in the United States. So I don't know that we can take doctors Stanley Temple science seriously.

[PJ Vogt]

I want to pause to appreciate the American poetry of the phrase probably the most rabidly anti cat special interest lobby group. Also, one wonders if calling someone rabidly anything in this context is more loaded than in others. Anyway, the primary reason cat advocates had a problem with Temple's research was that it was serving as supporting evidence for this measure, the one that would have designated feral cats as unprotected. The therefore allowing people to hunt, trap or kill them in the Badger State. An unpleasant idea which to some CAD advocates sounded deeply repugnant. So much so that some of these advocates started calling Dr. Temple and leaving threatening voicemails. Monday, 11:06pm Line 1 you8 cat murdering bastard. What goes around comes around. I declare Stanley Temple season open. Just to be clear, there's no reason to believe these voicemails came from any official activist group. Every cause has its extremists. Ultimately, in the face of public backlash, the measure failed. After initial public hearings, the state declined to pursue the issue further. The governor expressed the idea that the whole Wisconsin shoots cats sing was bad for the state's brand. The documentary was filmed in 2005. Nearly two decades later, the state estimates that a third of Wisconsin's native bird species are now in decline. The fight, though, over why that number keeps dropping continues. Here's something I struggle with. I'm honestly not really a cat or a bird partisan. I'm the undecided voter both sides would like to reach. I am absolutely ready to trust the data saying a lot of birds have died since the early 2000s. But I'm also aware that human beings must be a giant part of this global warming Wind turbines. The addition my mom put on her kitchen where the birds are always flying in the windows Cars, power lines, my cousin Kip in Texas, who likes to hunt quail. Are we just treating cats as a scapegoat here? Pete Mara says absolutely not. In 2013, he published a data analysis with an academic named Scott Lass comparing a lot of different ways that birds die. This analysis represented a pretty huge salvo in The Cat Advocates vs. Bird Ecologists data war.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

We looked at relative to other causes of anthropogenic mortality, that is, mortality caused directly by humans. So think wind turbines or birds that fly into buildings or windows, or say, birds that are killed by cats. We collected all of the relevant data out there where people estimated, because there'd been a bunch of studies globally where they looked at the number of birds or mammals or reptiles that cats kill on a daily or weekly basis throughout the year. And when you look at the total number, then you look at the estimates for the total number of cats, and you can separate cats by cats that are owned, that are let outside or unowned, cats that are outside, or what we call truly feral cats that have no connection to humans whatsoever, which we have a very poor understanding of. In terms of the numbers, you can estimate the population size, multiply that times the the number of individual animals that that cat might kill, and you can come up with an estimate for how many birds or mammals or reptiles are likely killed by cats in a given year. And you can do the same thing for wind turbines, you can do the same thing for cars. We did this, and this was the shot heard around the world. When our paper was published in Nature Communications, we estimated that cats kill somewhere between 1.3 billion and 4 billion birds a year in the United States. That's birds alone.

[PJ Vogt]

Billion billion.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

With a big old bee, 1.3 to 4 billion. And the range is so high because the studies are all over the map, you know, they just are. I think the median was 2.7 billion per year. But even if it's the low number at 1.3 billion birds per year, that was higher than most other estimates out there, but it's still. The low estimate is still very, very high. Do we need more research? Well, I don't know if we really need, from a scientific perspective, to try to refine the estimate. Maybe we need more research just to try to get a finer point on that number. But in terms of the conservation solution, no, we don't need more research to know that cats outdoors are just a problem for all kinds of reasons.

[PJ Vogt]

There are some problems that are genuinely quite confusing. There are other problems we convince ourselves are confusing. I Suspect because even though we could understand them, we don't want to. These are inconvenient truths that rather than addressing head on, we procrastinate about. We ask the scientists to go draw us another chart to run the numbers one more time. It buys us time before we have to do something that might be very tedious or in the case of some of these cats, very unpleasant.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

The federal government has declared war on feral cats, hoping to save thousands of native species from the brink of extinction. Countries like New Zealand and Australia are dealing with this. They're on the front lines of it, really, because they've got such a feral cat problem, outdoor cat problem, and Australia introduced a cat cull.

[PJ Vogt]

This is the felixa, a feral cat trap which lures in feral cats using recorded mating calls or the sounds of.

[John Dennevy]

Distressed prey before.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Because there are so many cats roaming free in wild areas. And so they've put out bounties for folks to go out and shoot cats.

[PJ Vogt]

Pete Mara is saying if we don't control cat populations now, we could end up like Australia, where people are just shooting lots of cats. Ironically, alley cat allies, the people who fight for the rights of cats to live outside. They also point to Australia. In fact, this video they made of a specific, very brutal catcall. There is, at least for me, some of their most effective political messaging. She said she'd walked out onto the wall and there was these piles of food and blood. Something had happened. She thought perhaps they'd been poisoned, injured cats, cats missing trails of blood, more blood. At one point in the video, text appears on the screen saying that in 2020, a contractor for the port of Newcastle came to the cat colony at night, quote, shooting at any cat he saw. Lily had been shot a few times in the head. She had bullets through her skull. We were all in tears.

[Becky Robinson]

You know, we love these cats.

[PJ Vogt]

And to see that someone had deliberately hurt them. Becky Robinson of Alley Cat Allies appears in the video and explains there was never a reason to kill those poor cats. She says the situation was already humanely under control.

[John Dennevy]

There was non lethal control in place. It had been carried out by people who, who had sterilized the cats. In Australia, it's referred to as desexed. The cats had been microchipped, they'd been vaccinated, and they were not breeding.

[PJ Vogt]

The local advocates say that before the call, they were using the same practice Becky Robinson was promoting in her community cat video, tnr. We focus on tnr, which is trap, neuter, release. When we started here at the breakwall, just under two years ago, there were over 100 cats. In that time we've been here, we've reduced the numbers to 40. And that's when the cull happened. Cat advocates like Alley Cat Allies believe TNR neutering outdoor cats is the right way to control these populations. If they can't reproduce, they'll gradually die out. It sounds like the kind of elegant, humane solution that everyone could get on board with. The problem is ecologists in general say TNR doesn't really work. Part of the problem is just cats reproduce very quickly. According to PETA, under the right set of conditions, in seven years, one female cat and her offspring can produce up to 370,000 cats. Which means for TNR to work, you'd need to catch, neuter, and release something like 75% of a feral cat colony every single year. How do you know you have 75%? I don't know. How do you stop new cats from migrating into the colony from outside? Who could say? I emailed Pete Mara about the TNR program in Newcastle. He hadn't heard about it, but found the numbers suspicious. This wasn't a scientific study. He wanted to know, why would neutering a colony have caused 60 of these hundred cats to just suddenly disappear in two years? He wrote, quote, I absolutely do not trust the data. Pete Mara believes the end result of these ineffective TNR programs is our status quo. Many cats living wild lives in human cities. And he says, these cats, they're not okay.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

These cats that are outdoors are not doing well. These cats have injuries. These cats have diseases. These cats have leukemia. These cats have feline aids. These cats are hit by cars.

[PJ Vogt]

Feline aids.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Yeah. There's all sorts of diseases that these cats contract. Pathogens, worms. The way they're most commonly killed is by getting hit by a car. And that's not a good way for an animal to die. I mean, it's just any way you slice it, it's just not a good way for an animal to die.

[PJ Vogt]

Pete Mara is not the only person who believes that unowned cats are living lives so bad that euthanizing them would be a superior option. His worldview is shared by PETA from PETA. Quote, allowing feral cats to continue their daily struggle for survival in a hostile environment is rarely a humane option. End quote. PETA says kill the cats. I mean, PETA would say euthanize, but still. It's tricky, though, because the word euthanize is very bland, and a bloody video like that one from Australia is very powerful. In the proxy war between cats and birds and the people who defend them. You could imagine a counter video shot from the perspective of an innocent, fluffy, adorable piping plover chick looking up from its nest at the ferocious jaws and teeth of a bored stray killer cat, but I'm not sure the video would work. We just don't relate as much to birds. We certainly don't relate to the declining aggregate numbers of bird populations. We relate to cats, to Garfield, to Felix, to Vertute, to all the ones we've seen on the Internet, all the ones we've pet in our homes and in the homes of our friends. We love cats, but we also need to protect the birds. Wars persist because neither side can see the other as reasonable. Wars end when people make space for competing truths. After a short break, we find someone who actually sits in the middle of this intractable war who seems to think about it differently than anyone else. That's after some ads this episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Chilipad. Will my kids sleep tonight? Will I wake up at 3am again? Am I gonna wake up hot and sweaty because my partner leaves the heat on? Those are thoughts that bounce around my head when I can't sleep too. And let's face it, sleep slips away when you're too hot, uncomfortable, or caught in a loop of racing thoughts. But cool sleep helps reset the body and calm the mind. That's where Chilipad by Sleep Me comes in. 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Get a free 30 day trial when you go to constant contact.com constant contact.com welcome back to the show. I wanted to talk to someone who could hold this entire argument in their mind. Someone who could see this from both perspectives. One voice came to mind. This person who owned multiple pet cats. But I also knew to be the greatest bird lover I've ever met. When we spoke, and we spoke often, it was usually about the lives of birds. So I invited him to the studio. So normally when we interview experts on the podcast, there are people who are like public intellectuals, like writers or professors. There are people who have a lot of expertise in their field. So I just want to establish your bona fides. Can you tell me the highest level of education you've completed?

[Becky Robinson]

Graduated fifth Grade. Now I'm in sixth grade.

[PJ Vogt]

Pretty good grades though, right?

[Becky Robinson]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

Okay. And what do you think is the subject that you know more about than anything else?

[Becky Robinson]

Birds.

[PJ Vogt]

How do you know so much about birds, Colin?

[Becky Robinson]

When I was young, I just clicked on random videos on YouTube and then I just saw like these bird videos and then I just started watching that also. What also, like influenced me a lot is because when I had chickens for like five years, yeah, that also influenced me a lot about birds.

[PJ Vogt]

Calden, easily one of the most charming people I've ever met. Half Swiss, half Tibetan, raised in the ways of two peace loving, neutrality seeking cultures. We'd spend a lot of time on long drives where he would just talk about birds and offer bird facts. Some kids get into trains for a while or fire trucks or dinosaurs. But for Calden, it was birds. It had been birds for as long as I'd known him. And I really had begun to appreciate birds more through our conversations. A species that, unlike cats and dogs, have mostly resisted the cheap bribery of human domestication. Who keep to the skies, who feel alien and strange and have never pretended to belong to us. I just want to for someone because one of the reasons I enjoy spending time with you so much is I like asking about birds because you know everything about birds, but I just want to establish that for other people. So do you mind if I ask you some bird trivia questions?

[Becky Robinson]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

What species of birds lays blue eggs?

[Becky Robinson]

American robin.

[PJ Vogt]

What's the word for the study of birds?

[Becky Robinson]

Ornithology.

[PJ Vogt]

What's the fastest bird in the world?

[Becky Robinson]

Pergon falcon.

[PJ Vogt]

What's the biggest bird in the world?

[Becky Robinson]

An ostrich.

[PJ Vogt]

What about the biggest bird in the world who's extinct?

[Becky Robinson]

I think it was either the moa or the eleph. Elephant bird is the heaviest. I know the moa is probably the tallest I have.

[PJ Vogt]

Elven bird. But I have no doubt that you are more correct than this website that I found. What species of bird can only eat when its head is upside down?

[Becky Robinson]

Flamingos.

[PJ Vogt]

Yep. What species of bird can fly backwards?

[Becky Robinson]

Hummingbirds.

[PJ Vogt]

You're seven for seven so far. What species of bird can fly underwater?

[Becky Robinson]

Penguins or puffins? Technically either of those. They don't technically fly underwater, but they look like they fly underwater.

[PJ Vogt]

Again, you're doing better than my website.

[Becky Robinson]

What was the website's answer?

[PJ Vogt]

They just said the puffin, but I think you're right because I was like flying underwater. I'm not sure.

[Becky Robinson]

Well, I guess puffin because puffins fly above water and underwater. So I guess that's what they mean.

[PJ Vogt]

But I think you're being a bit more precise than they are. I think you're more correct than they are. How many different bird species are there in the world?

[Becky Robinson]

Over 10,000. I'm pretty sure.

[PJ Vogt]

There's some debate, but the most widely accepted number seems to be around 10,000. Okay, that's perfect. When I'd first wanted to talk to Calden, I just assumed he'd be a voice speaking for the birds. But then I saw this school project he did, and I realized he actually had feelings in both directions. So I want to ask you about an experiment you did involving chickens.

[Becky Robinson]

Oh, you mean when I hatched those eggs?

[PJ Vogt]

Tell me about it.

[Becky Robinson]

We did it for a science fair experiment non hatched. I don't know why we're going to try next year with duck eggs.

[PJ Vogt]

Well, so I became aware of your science experiment because I had stopped by your school during the science fair and I saw the experiments and I was very impressed with yours. Not to disparage your classmates, but I found yours impressive. And in your display for the experiment, it included a little biography of you.

[Becky Robinson]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

And there was a part of it that surprised me that I wanted to ask you about, if that's okay.

[Becky Robinson]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

Okay. Can I read it to you?

[Becky Robinson]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

Hi, my name is Calden.

[Becky Robinson]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

I'm 11 years old.

[Becky Robinson]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

I'm in fifth grade. And I have two cats.

[Becky Robinson]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

I love fishing, skiing, and animals.

[Becky Robinson]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

Ever since I was three, I was fascinated by birds.

[Becky Robinson]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

I've owned four chickens here in New York. Sadly, they all died.

[Becky Robinson]

Exactly.

[PJ Vogt]

Now I want to hatch. It's so funny that you're agreeing with yourself now. I want to hatch new ones.

[Becky Robinson]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

Chickens are way smarter and social than people think.

[Becky Robinson]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

My chickens, for example, are always trying to escape.

[Becky Robinson]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

With cats, they do what they want, and you can't change what they do. But with chickens, you have to stop the issue. And the rush of stopping them is so nice. What did you mean when you said the rush of stopping them was so nice?

[Becky Robinson]

Having to change the way of them escaping all the time was fun because they always found it a new way to escape. So then you have to try and solve the issue. Like when they were young, you have to bring them outside, and that's when they always move them. With cats, they just do what they want, and you can't really stop them because they can run around. They know the neighborhood. Chickens, you can interfere, because if you don't interfere, they're not used to the city. They're smart, but they're not that smart to the might get run over by a car if they escaped the whole time.

[PJ Vogt]

It sounds like for you raising chickens was kind of like having a young child, whereas having cats was like you were raising a teenager kind of. Can we talk about cats?

[Becky Robinson]

Okay.

[PJ Vogt]

Do you have cats? You have one cat shadow.

[Becky Robinson]

No, I had. Oh, I'm sorry, two years ago. Now I have three cats. One was dragon fruit. That's the one in June. Those two are living inside and the one that's outside is his mama cat. Mama cat because she just gave birth to dragonfood.

[PJ Vogt]

So have your cats ever killed a bird that you know of?

[Becky Robinson]

Oh yeah, many times. Many times as many sparrows Once this weird like swallow looking bird.

[PJ Vogt]

You love birds?

[Becky Robinson]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

Does it bother you?

[Becky Robinson]

I mean I'm upset about it, but it's no different when they bring in a mouse.

[PJ Vogt]

It's not different.

[Becky Robinson]

And I also found in the corner of this garage at our house there was a like a dead blue jay corpse. It was like a body and then the head was detached and then there was like a wing detached. But I was impressed but also sad because blue jays are very big birds.

[PJ Vogt]

How long did you feel sad for?

[Becky Robinson]

I mean, not that I didn't cry. I was just like upset and like, oh come on, like that feeling.

[PJ Vogt]

Calden said he couldn't imagine forcing his cat to live entirely inside. It'd be boring, it'd be unfair. But he also believes birds have rights that need balancing. I suggested cats might be killing more birds than he realizes. But of course he said he was familiar with the literature. Calden's feeling was that to solve this problem you'd actually need to think outside of the box. What's your vision for the future of how cats and birds in America can get along? Because people who have house cats everywhere want them to be able to roam free. But there are places where it's a real problem.

[Becky Robinson]

Places where it's a real problem. The easiest thing to do is just give the cats a bell on the collar so that when the cats move and try to creep up on the birds, it makes a sound so the birds can hear it and then they can just fly away, scary away.

[PJ Vogt]

Do you have any other ideas? I think that's a good one.

[Becky Robinson]

Let me think. Yeah, maybe having your cats either less outside, not outside at all, or that's all my ideas.

[PJ Vogt]

I think those are good ideas. I had not expected to find myself taking an 11 year old's ideas back to an academic like Pete Mara. But I found Calden's perspective refreshing. I know human culture changes slowly, stubbornly, but I also know technology can accelerate those changes. It actually felt easier to imagine popularizing bells on cat collars than it did convincing people with outdoor cats to just start keeping them inside. Pete Mara is a bit skeptical about bells, but he is a believer in this idea that technology can help birds and cats and people coexist on our planet, and he sees some of those technologies taking off.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Since I've started to work on this issue, I've seen, no question, an increase in the number of folks that are walking their cats on leashes. I see more people that are aware of this issue at all, and they just say, yeah, we're cat owners, but we're indoor cat owners, which is totally, totally fine. That's great. And we also see a growth in something called catios, which are catios, which are screened in cat enclosures so your cat can go outside, enjoy outdoors, can watch and get stimulated by nature, just like we get stimulated by nature, because it's in their best interest to be stimulated by nature. So they're happy but not cause any damage to birds, but they can watch a bird fly by without actually killing the bird.

[PJ Vogt]

So you see people changing the architecture of their homes because they're trying to find a balance between their love for their pet and their desire to conserve nature.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Absolutely. Yep. It's happening in lots of places.

[PJ Vogt]

I had no idea that was happening.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Yeah, just Google catio and you'll see more and more folks putting up catios in their houses to accommodate their cat.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, yeah. I'm looking at some gorgeous catios. I think I was just picturing a covered patio, but it's real small for some reason. And this is more like. It's sort of like a cage, but it doesn't look particularly. It's somewhere between a cage and a jungle gym.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Yeah. And there's all kinds of versions out there. But the point is that it allows your cat to have controlled access to the outdoors where there aren't native wildlife that will be injured by the cat.

[PJ Vogt]

So what are we going to do about all these cats? If you believe the ecologists, our house cats are looking at a future of bells, cat leashes, and catios. And this is the harder part. Some unowned cats need to be humanely killed, particularly in places like the islands of Hawaii and Australia, where they're wiping out endangered species. Cats, Pete Mara says, have already contributed to the execution of 63 species on this planet. He thinks we should try to prevent.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

The 64th I look at these natural areas when I see a bird that, to me is like going into a museum and seeing a Monet or a Picasso. It's our natural history that we're losing. It's like losing a Monet on the wall when you lose a spec. And we know that species loss is a massive problem, and we almost lost species like the bald eagle. Could you imagine if we didn't have the bald eagle in the United States, our national bird? And now, thankfully, we got rid of DDT and the bald eagle came back. And future generations can now appreciate species like the bald eagle and the brown pelican and the osprey because we protected them. And we have a responsibility to maintain the integrity of the Earth. I mean, I don't know if that's convincing to you or not, but it's convincing to me.

[PJ Vogt]

I feel like a general sense of, like, we should conserve species. I just feel like. I feel like who cares about the birds? Is probably. It's a taboo thing to say. You know, nobody's going to advocate for the extinction of a species. But if you. While nobody would say that, if you look at people's behavior, clearly people believe that, you know.

[Dr. Peter Mara]

Yeah, I think there are some people that are thinking that. But, you know, at the end of the day, I also think that a lot of folks on the other side of the aisle that are cat advocates are also animal advocates. And they're in a quandary, honestly, because they love wildlife, they love nature, they love cats, and they want to believe that cats are not having the impact that they're having, because the solution here is just not great. It's a difficult situation, any way you slice it. And I think that many of them really appreciate birds and like birds, but they don't know what to do within the short time frame that they're present on this planet and don't think that their single cat or their five cats really matter. But they do. But they do. They have a hard time scaling it up. And I see it, because I think about things at much larger scales.

[PJ Vogt]

Today, more than 100 million American cats live mostly outdoor lives. If Dr. Pete Mara and people like him are able to convince people to see the world how they see it, that'll change. They'll have to do something that seems impossible, convince people that their individual choices add up to something larger. But that impossible thing has been done before. We don't smoke inside. We don't litter. Our dogs in America rarely roam free. Pete Mara says it's important that we change all this because there's a generation after us that'll inherit the. The earth we leave behind. Calden, are you 11 right now, or 12?

[Becky Robinson]

11.

[PJ Vogt]

I interview a lot of people who know more than me, but they're usually not 11.

[Becky Robinson]

Mm.

[PJ Vogt]

Just saying. What do you want to do when you grow up?

[Becky Robinson]

Be an ornithologist? Well, go to college. And then I want to go to the. What college is it called? The bird college? The.

[PJ Vogt]

There's a bird college, not bird college.

[Becky Robinson]

But it's like you can study ornithology. There's.

[PJ Vogt]

It's.

[Becky Robinson]

Cornell. Cornell University. I think that's what it's called.

[PJ Vogt]

I've heard of Cornell University. And they have a good ornithology program?

[Becky Robinson]

I think so. I'm pretty sure.

[PJ Vogt]

And so after Cornell, would you want to be a professional ornithologist?

[Becky Robinson]

Yes.

[PJ Vogt]

Do you think you'll ever be less interested in birds than you are right now?

[Becky Robinson]

Probably not. Maybe when I'm in the teenage years.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Becky Robinson]

Because then I'm not gonna care about it that much. Then I'm just gonna care about, like, Fortnite with Friends or like something like that. Like COD or something so boring. Exactly.

[PJ Vogt]

Thank you.

[Becky Robinson]

You're welcome.

[PJ Vogt]

Hey, everybody, PJ here. I want to tell you about a show we love over here on this team. You may know it already. It's called Planet Money. They tell these surprising, fascinating stories about the economy. And they made a little trailer, which I'm going to share with you right now. Planet Money helps you understand the economy. We find the people at the center of the story. Garbage in New York that was like a controlled substance. We show you how money influences everything. Tell me what you like by telling.

[John Dennevy]

Me how you spend your money.

[PJ Vogt]

And we dig until we get answers. I had a bad feeling you're going.

[John Dennevy]

To bring that up.

[PJ Vogt]

Planet Money finds out. All you have to do is listen. The Planet Money podcast from NPR Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey. It was created by me, PJ Vogt and Truthi Pinamani. This episode was produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Theme, original composition and mixing by Armin Bazarian. Fact checking by Diane Kelly. Special thanks this week to Kim Naderveen Patersa and to May Abdullaholu at Odysee. Our executive producer is Leah Rhys Deniz. Thanks to the rest of the team at Odyssey. Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gaynor, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Kirk Courtney and Hilary Shove. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at uta. If you would like to support our show, get ad free episodes, zero reruns and some additional audio. Please consider signing up for Incognito Mode. You can learn more at searchengine. Joe Follow and listen to Search Engine for free on the Odysee app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week. Sa.