The New Zuckerberg

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The New Zuckerberg" by PJ Vogt

Introduction to the Episode

In the January 18, 2025 episode of Search Engine, host PJ Vogt delves deep into the evolving persona and policies of Mark Zuckerberg, the CEO of Meta Platforms (formerly Facebook). Titled "The New Zuckerberg," the episode explores Zuckerberg's transformation from a relatively quiet, strategic leader to a more outspoken and defiant figure, especially in the context of shifting political landscapes and societal expectations.

Zuckerberg's Transformation: From Stealthy CEO to Defiant Leader

PJ Vogt opens the discussion by contrasting Zuckerberg’s past and present demeanor. Historically, Zuckerberg maintained a low-profile presence, focusing on his company's growth and innovation without the public drama often associated with other tech moguls like Elon Musk.

Changes in Public Persona

At [05:25], PJ Vogt observes, “There's something in the tone of this video that I haven't heard from a Mark Zuckerberg clip before—anger would be putting it too strongly. But he's defiant. He's certainly unapologetic.” This shift is further highlighted by Zuckerberg’s new, more rugged appearance and assertive stance in public communications.

New Policies on Meta Platforms

In a pivotal moment at [03:45], Zuckerberg announces via Instagram reels significant changes to Meta’s content moderation policies:

Mark Zuckerberg [03:56]: “And we've reached a point where it's just too many mistakes and too much censorship. The recent elections also feel like a cultural tipping point towards once again prioritizing speech. So we're going to get back to our roots and focus on reducing mistakes, simplifying our policies and restoring free expression on our platforms.”

These changes include dismantling fact-checking mechanisms in favor of community-driven annotations and expanding the boundaries of permissible speech on Facebook, Threads, and Instagram.

Historical Perspective: Zuckerberg's Early Days

The New York Times reporter Mike Isaac provides a nostalgic look back to Zuckerberg’s early interviews, capturing his initial vision for Facebook and his humble beginnings. At [07:34], Zuckerberg reflects:

Mark Zuckerberg: “When we first launched, we were hoping for maybe 400, 500 people. Harvard didn't have a Facebook, so that's the gap that we were trying to fill.”

Early Public Relations and Policies

An infamous moment from 2010 is recounted, where Zuckerberg, dressed in his signature hoodie, appeared visibly uncomfortable during an interview with journalists Kara Swisher and Walt Mossberg. At [14:39], Zuckerberg admits:

Mark Zuckerberg: “I can't go back and change the past.”

This early vulnerability contrasts sharply with his current assertive stance, highlighting significant personal and professional growth—or perhaps a strategic pivot—in his approach to public engagement.

The Impact of 2016 and Trump Election

The 2016 presidential election serves as a catalyst for Zuckerberg’s evolving approach. PJ Vogt discusses how Facebook became a battleground for misinformation, with Russian troll farms amplifying divisive content:

Mike Isaac [33:15]: “Immediately, there's this slew of articles basically pointing at Facebook saying, this has to be the reason that Donald Trump was elected.”

Post-election scrutiny forced Zuckerberg to testify before Congress multiple times, grappling with issues like data privacy and foreign interference.

Congressional Testimonies and Scrutiny

During Zuckerberg’s 2018 testimony before Congress ([34:45]), he acknowledges Meta’s shortcomings:

Mark Zuckerberg [35:00]: “We didn’t take a broad enough view of our responsibility, and that was a big mistake, and it was my mistake, and I'm sorry.”

Despite these apologies, skepticism from both political spectrums remained high, with Zuckerberg earning disdain from various corners, as noted by Casey Newton at [34:20]:

“This is a bipartisan phenomenon... Disdain for Mark Zuckerberg is a truly bipartisan phenomenon.”

The COVID Pandemic and Its Effects

The onset of the COVID-19 pandemic further strained Meta’s platforms as user activity surged. Zuckerberg faced unprecedented challenges in content moderation, especially regarding misinformation about the virus and vaccines.

Increased Usage and Moderation Challenges

At [40:32], Zuckerberg discusses the operational strain:

Mark Zuckerberg: “We’re just fighting to keep the lights on over here because people are on Facebook and Instagram and all this shit, like in record numbers.”

Shifts in Political Alignment and Policies

The pandemic period marked a significant ideological shift for Zuckerberg. In an interview with Joe Rogan ([41:33]), Zuckerberg expresses frustration with government censorship:

Mark Zuckerberg [43:15]: “This really hit the most extreme, I'd say, during... they tried to censor anyone who is basically arguing against it.”

These sentiments culminated in the recent policy overhaul, aiming to reduce corporate intervention in user-generated content.

Casey Newton's Insights on New Policies

Casey Newton, a renowned tech journalist, provides critical analysis of Meta’s new content guidelines. At [66:53], he explains how Meta’s policies have been loosened:

Casey Newton: “Meta is now going to allow insults about mental illness and abnormality when targeting people based on gender or sexual orientation.”

This regulatory relaxation notably permits phrases like “a trans woman isn’t a woman” to remain unmoderated, a stark departure from previous standards aimed at protecting marginalized groups.

Future Scenarios: Zuckerberg and Trump's Relationship

The episode explores the precarious balance Zuckerberg must maintain with the Trump administration:

Possible Implications of Meta's Policies

At [72:13], Casey Newton speculates:

“Maybe Facebook becomes the Fox News version of Facebook... it’s like a right-wing version of social networking.”

Partisan Splintering of Social Networks

Alternatively, Newton warns of potential overextension:

“Maybe Facebook will give the right everything they ask for and still find that they can't satisfy them, leading to further conflicts.”

This uncertainty underscores the volatile intersection of technology, politics, and free speech.

Conclusion: The New Zuckerberg and What It Means for Users

PJ Vogt wraps up by reflecting on the broader implications of Zuckerberg’s transformation. As Meta shifts towards a more laissez-faire moderation approach, users can anticipate a landscape rife with unregulated discourse, both harmful and liberating. This pivot not only redefines Meta’s role in society but also raises critical questions about the future of online communities and the responsibilities of tech giants.

Notable Quotes

• Mark Zuckerberg [03:56]: “We're going to get rid of fact checkers and replace them with community notes similar to X starting in the.”

• Casey Newton [05:43]: “This man and his trillion dollar company sat in front of a camera and told his user base they were gonna need to step up and become volunteer moderators of his platform while he wore a $900,000 watch.”

• Mike Isaac [35:06]: “It's clear now that we didn't do enough to prevent these tools from being used for harm as well. And that goes for fake news, for foreign interference in elections and hate speech, as well as developers and data privacy. We didn't take a broad enough view of our responsibility, and that was a big mistake, and it was my mistake, and I'm sorry.”

• Mark Zuckerberg [43:15]: “I was sympathetic to that. At the beginning of COVID it seemed like, okay, you have this virus. It seems like it's killing a lot of people...”

• Casey Newton [67:46]: “In the past you could not say, for example, gay people are insane, Pj. Today you can say that gay people are insane...”

Final Thoughts

"The New Zuckerberg" offers a comprehensive examination of Mark Zuckerberg's strategic and personal evolution amidst intensifying political pressures and societal shifts. By intertwining historical context with present-day developments, PJ Vogt provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of how one of tech's most influential figures is navigating the turbulent waters of modern free speech and corporate responsibility.

Transcript

[PJ Vogt]

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[Mark Zuckerberg]

Hey everyone, I want to talk about something important today because it's time to get back to our roots around free expression on Facebook and Instagram. I started building social media to give people a voice.

[PJ Vogt]

It was this Zuckerberg who took to Instagram reels last week to announce some profound changes to how he will run his section of the Internet in a way that better accords with his evolving values.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

And we've reached a point where it's just too many mistakes and too much censorship. The recent elections also feel like a cultural tipping point towards once again prioritizing speech. So we're going to get back to our roots and focus on reducing mistakes, simplifying our policies and restoring free expression on our platforms.

[PJ Vogt]

He listed what this would actually mean for users of Facebook threads and Instagram.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

First, we're going to get rid of fact checkers and replace them with community notes similar to X starting in the.

[PJ Vogt]

Us so Meta, like X, would now rely on unpaid volunteers on crowdsourcing to decide what was true and what wasn't. The voice of the people, the voice of truth. Another change, the bounds of what users are allowed to post has now been expanded. Meta's moderators were handed new training materials which included quotes of the types of things users could now say. One example more comprehensive migrants are no better than vomit. Another quote trans people aren't real. They're mentally ill. Zuckerberg describes this change more diplomatically.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

We're going to simplify our content policies and get rid of a bunch of restrictions on topics like immigration and gender that are just out of touch with mainstream discourse. What started as a movement to be more inclusive has increasingly been used to shut down opinions and shut out people with different ideas, and it's gone too far. So I want to make sure that people can share their beliefs and experiences on our platforms.

[PJ Vogt]

There's something in the tone of this video that I haven't heard from a Mark Zuckerberg clip Before anger would be putting it too strongly. But he's defiant. He's certainly unapologetic. And he looks noticeably different. He's bulked up a lot and he has this big mop of hair and a prominent gold chain.

[Casey Newton]

Wait, I have to pause you right here. You missed the most important part of his outfit. The anointing of this watch that cost $900,000.

[PJ Vogt]

That watch is $900,000.

[Casey Newton]

This man and his trillion dollar company sat in front of a camera and told his user base they were gonna need to step up and become volunteer moderators of his platform while he wore a $900,000 watch.

[PJ Vogt]

That voice belongs to Casey Newton, who covers social media companies at his excellent newsletter, platformer. A $900,000 watch? Yeah. What does it do?

[Casey Newton]

Apparently tells the time.

[PJ Vogt]

This week I found myself talking to not just Casey, but a few other folks and going deep on Mark Zuckerberg's public interviews and backstory, trying to understand not just these recent changes to Meta's platforms, but the changes to the person himself. We reached out to Meta with a request for an interview or a comment. We didn't hear back, but I was trying to understand how Mark Zuckerberg had gone from being a left of center tech guy, friendly to Democrats, someone who donated half a billion dollars to criminal justice and progressive immigration reforms, to someone in the maga tent. Had he changed his mind? Was this who he'd been all along? I spent this week tracing the story of Mark Zuckerberg's public life, all the different people he's been, to try to understand how we'd ended up with this new one. And now there's a new form of cyber matchmaking.

[Mike Isaac]

College networking websites.

[Casey Newton]

Is this perhaps the next big thing?

[PJ Vogt]

In Hartford, it's April 2004 and CNBC is doing a short segment profiling two precocious college kids who've each built social media websites at their universities. One of them is Mark Zuckerberg, co founder of thefacebook.com mark appears on screen.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Mark, if somebody was to put the question to you about the magnitude of.

[PJ Vogt]

What you think you've launched, how big do you think your product or your service is?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Well, it's impossible to tell, but when we first launched, we were hoping for maybe 400, 500 people. Harvard didn't have a Facebook, so that's the gap that we were trying to fill. And now we're at 100,000 people, so who knows where we're going next?

[PJ Vogt]

Mark Zuckerberg looking like the teenager he still is, wearing a striped Preppy button up. This might be his first ever proper interview, and he seems excited. He's on tv.

[Casey Newton]

What is the Facebook exactly?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

It's an online directory that connects people through universities and colleges, through their social networks. There's you sign on, you make a profile about yourself by answering some questions, entering some information, such as your concentration or major at school.

[PJ Vogt]

On screen footage displays this strange pale blue new website. It's a bit nostalgic to see it now. A series of boxes. No news feed, no algorithm yet on this website, you can search for people you know, you can friend them, and you can look at their profiles. Thefacebook.com is a website you visit probably from your desktop computer. Smartphones don't exist yet, which means the Internet is still a place you could choose to visit or not. Not this force that has expanded to fill every space in society. But Mark's website is going to help change that.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

We're hoping to have many more universities by fall, hopefully over 100 or 200. And from there we're going to launch a bunch of SAT applications which should keep people coming back to the site and maybe can make something cool.

[PJ Vogt]

You were covering different people who had started these companies. Many of them were just content to become unimaginably wealthy and not take over the Internet. Did you see anything in him that seemed different from, like, MySpace, Tom?

[Casey Newton]

Absolutely. You know, Zuckerberg has always been known to be a supremely competitive person. Like a sort of like on the level of a Michael Jordan. You know, you read the stories about Michael Jordan being sort of unable to avoid turning anything into a competition. And Zuckerberg is that way too. His favorite video game is Civilization and always has been. And in his free time to this day, he plays Civilization and schemes to take over the entire world.

[PJ Vogt]

So wait, the way he unwinds from scheming and trying to take over the entire world is to play a video game about scheming and trying to take over the entire world?

[Casey Newton]

That's right.

[PJ Vogt]

It's like if we went home and played podcast tycoon.

[Casey Newton]

Literally. Literally.

[PJ Vogt]

When did you start covering Mark Zuckerberg and or Facebook?

[Mike Isaac]

Oh, man, too long ago. As far back as 2010 when I had graduated into the financial crisis and got a job doing tech reporting, where I had no idea what I was doing.

[PJ Vogt]

This is Mike Isaac, now a reporter for the New York Times. These days, a veteran tech reporter, but back when he started, he found himself documenting the birth of the social media Internet we live in today. He was watching the beginning of all these changes we're still trying to make.

[Mike Isaac]

Sense of this was like a heady time in the tech industry. Now it seems like crazy long ago, but this was before Facebook went public, before Twitter went public. The questions people were asking around social media was, is this gonna be another MySpace? Which now is like ridiculous in retrospect, but like it very much was this thing where people were curious if this was gonna be a Fad or not.

[PJ Vogt]

2010, though, was also the year that this would start to change. Facebook had by then moved from Cambridge to Palo Alto and the site had kept adding new features. The news feed, the like button. It now had advertisers on the site. In 2010, it would reach 500 million users. As it grew, as it kept growing, some people started to worry. There was a vague apprehension that social media's growing power might be a problem, even if no one could exactly predict the shape of the problem. A few years earlier, Facebook had had a big privacy scam where users were opted in to a program called Beacon that shared your data with advertisers and notified your friends of purchases you made. And to the concern in 2010 became privacy. Maybe Mark Zuckerberg was a strange new kind of big brother figure who might use the information we were so freely giving him against us. Journalists had questions and I just want to say there's a lot of things to talk about Mark, but I think he has a lot of got to come up here and talk about it and we're through. I just was telling him that, yeah. This is from a famous on stage interview from 2010 where Mark Zuckerberg agrees to sit down with journalists Kara Swisher and Walt Mossberg.

[Casey Newton]

So without further ado, Mark Zuckerberg.

[Mike Isaac]

Thanks, man.

[PJ Vogt]

Mark Zuckerberg walks on stage wearing what was at the time his signature outfit, a zip up hoodie. In the video, the billionaire has just turned 26.

[Mike Isaac]

Mark had not done a ton of these giant on stage interview things. Like his handlers knew that he was uncomfortable doing press, hated doing press, and tried to keep him in a contained, protective environment. But they were starting to get attacked for privacy stuff and he had to, as CEO, defend himself in public.

[PJ Vogt]

Is that a wrong perception? Have you been wrongly labeled with that or is that something that you didn't communicate right, or what is your feeling about that?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Sure. So, I mean, privacy is a, is a really important issue for us and for the Internet. So we spend a lot of time thinking about these things in terms of the settings that we have. I think that there are some misperceptions.

[Mike Isaac]

Zuckerberg is sitting there, and one thing he. I'm not sure if he's ever publicly addressed this, but privately, and it's been written in some books, like, he just has a sweating problem when he gets nervous. Like, he just starts perspiring when he's in his head, when he's got cameras all over him. I actually relate to this. I have this similar thing in person. Like, now I just sort of say, hey, by the way, I'm gonna start sweating if I get nervous. And it diffuses it. But he definitely did not have the ability to acknowledge it. He just sort of, like, goes into anxiety mode and melts down in some way.

[PJ Vogt]

Do you feel like you're adequately portrayed?

[Casey Newton]

Because I want to wonder about the.

[PJ Vogt]

Person who actually created this thing.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, I mean, a lot of stuff happened along the way. I think there were real learning points and turning points along the way in terms of building things.

[PJ Vogt]

They cut to a very close. Close up of his face. He looks like a teenager pulled over for a dui. You can see the beads of sweat collecting.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

I can't go back and change the past.

[PJ Vogt]

He's sweating so much. He seems so uncomfortable. That Kara Swisher does something you could read as either caring or humiliating. She makes this suggestion, okay, you want.

[Casey Newton]

To take off the hoodie?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

No, I never take off the hoodie.

[PJ Vogt]

I know you don't. What's with that? There's a group of women in the audience that wish you would.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

No girls. Whoa.

[PJ Vogt]

All right. Sorry.

[Casey Newton]

That's okay.

[PJ Vogt]

Can you explain what this instant personalization.

[Casey Newton]

Thing was that you did and why.

[PJ Vogt]

You did it, and what's the value of it to your users?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Maybe I should take off the hoodie.

[Casey Newton]

Take off the hoodie.

[PJ Vogt]

Go ahead. Here.

[Casey Newton]

You all right?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah.

[Casey Newton]

This is a great moment in Internet history.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

What? All right, what are we gonna do with the mic?

[Mike Isaac]

And I think he obviously. He's, like, mortified and, like, it goes horribly on pretty much every level for him because of the optics.

[Casey Newton]

This is kind of like a famous moment in early Zuckerberg lore.

[PJ Vogt]

Again, Casey Newton also remembering this sweaty moment.

[Casey Newton]

He was not, like a bold, defiant, confrontational Persona. He was slipping in his own flop sweat, was like kind of early Zuckerberg.

[PJ Vogt]

For Casey, this moment isn't just about the public humiliation of a young billionaire CEO. It's also about seeing a version of Zuckerberg, who was much more open to tough conversation, who saw an upside in publicly engaging with his critics.

[Casey Newton]

I think that early Zuckerberg was characterized by some amount of humility you know, he grew up and he, he surrounded himself with people who would disagree with him often and seemed to relish disagreement. Like, this was not the sort of visionary who believed that only he could build the future. This was somebody who was much more collaborative and was sort of seeking other people's opinions. And by the way, I would say that this perspective does run counter to what I think the stereotype of early Zuckerberg was and to some extent still remains, which is a sort of bloodless lizard creature who has no empathy and does not understand normal human relationships. I never really thought that that was true. I think that in order to do what Zuckerberg does, you have to get deeply in touc with what people want. He just does it differently than most people.

[PJ Vogt]

Do you think that the lizard blood thing is basically because of that film the Social Network? Or was it just something that people wanted to believe about a Silicon Valley person? Or where do you think that came from?

[Casey Newton]

Yes, I do think that the Social Network played a huge role in shaping not just the perception of Zuckerberg, but it shaped Zuckerberg itself. Like it was a very formative moment for him.

[PJ Vogt]

When you're trying to understand Mark Zuckerberg, this movie comes up a lot, much more than any takedown piece or criticism from the press. The Social Network, released in 2010 was a phenomenon. It won Oscars. People were trying to decide what to do with their anxiety about social media and this movie told them a story that explained their discomfort back to them.

[Mike Isaac]

Relationship status.

[PJ Vogt]

Interested in this is what drives life at college.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Are you having sex or aren't you?

[PJ Vogt]

It's white people. Jesse Eisenberg plays a stammering, sweaty, power hungry Mark Zuckerberg. In this scene, he's showing the prototype of the website he's made to the co founder who he will later in the movie Backstab.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

You know, that's what the Facebook is gonna be about.

[Casey Newton]

People are gonna log on because after.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

All the cake and watermelon, there's a.

[Casey Newton]

Chance they're actually gonna get laid.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Meet a girl.

[PJ Vogt]

Yes, that is really good. Hollywood's Mark Zuckerberg is a character who thinks he's smarter than really anyone, who has built a website that'll shape our very lives, but who is depicted as a person missing a core part of his humanity.

[Casey Newton]

Imagine being Zuckerberg still in your, like early 20s. And there's an Oscar winning movie that is just based on a series of lies about how you started this company.

[PJ Vogt]

Right? Can you say more about that? What were the lies?

[Casey Newton]

The Premise of Aaron Sorkin's the Social Network is that Mark Zuckerberg was a unlucky in love loser who started Facebook because he was desperate to meet girls and would essentially stop at nothing to do that. When in reality, at Harvard, Zuckerberg was dating the woman who is now still his wife, Priscilla Chan. And that was true the entire time, and it's just sort of left on the cutting room floor. But it actually is quite a profound deception because the entire film rests on this premise of why Facebook was started. That just is not true.

[PJ Vogt]

Mike Isaac, the Times reporter, also agrees that the Social Network did a number on Mark Zuckerberg.

[Mike Isaac]

I think, based on people around him that I talked to, just based on my experience over the years, that really this is a strong word, but I think it traumatized him, honestly. Like, this becomes him in the public eye, and I think that bothered him and there's no real way to escape it. So in a way, yet another sort of origin story of, first the press comes after me, now the film industry is portraying me as this sort of conniving billionaire figure. I'm never gonna get a fair shake sort of thing.

[PJ Vogt]

You know, it's funny, like, I, I that word traumatized, it's like there's people who, you know, it's like the word we use for an unusual kind of wound that shapes people in which they sort of, they grow around. It's a word that people often don't want to lend to people with so much power. But if we're trying to understand people who have a huge amount of cultural power, like, I've never seen someone become famous without being wounded by it and without feeling like then they become a person in battle with their public image. And for you, that film is like the time where that wound settles into his ego.

[Mike Isaac]

I think that's right for him. It might not be super clear cut, but it definitely evolved over time in these very public moments. And like, if the movie, it would be one thing if the movie weren't good and popular. And this is the exact worst case scenario for him, because it was both of those things.

[PJ Vogt]

Obviously there is some truth in the movie. The real Zuckerberg is ruthless and not known for his emotional sensitivity. Still, a different kind of rich and powerful person might have sued for libel. But Casey Newton says that this version of Zuckerberg was deeply committed to his free speech ethos, for better or worse.

[Casey Newton]

Before 2016, Facebook had pretty light moderation in a lot of ways. Their workforce of content moderators was relatively small. They would do Irresponsible things like set up shop in countries in the global south where they did not have any or more than a couple employees who spoke the language. It was just sort of grow, grow, grow at all costs. But he had this understanding of free speech just frankly, very similar to, like, the set of values that were handed to me growing up in America in the 80s and 90s, where, for example, there was a lot of tolerance for Holocaust denial, not because folks agreed with it, but because we held this value of free speech so preciously in America that we thought that the way to fight back against all forms of prejudice was to air it out rather than to chase it into the shadows. And so Zuckerberg, who is Jewish, famously for many, many years, permitted Holocaust denial on the platforms. And, you know, I think probably some degree of anti Semitism directed his own way because he felt like this is just sort of how we do things in this country.

[PJ Vogt]

When Mark Zuckerberg first sat in his dorm room listening to Daft Punk and coding the facebook.com, he was not imagining he'd have to have a policy on whether people on his website would be allowed to persuade you that the Holocaust never happened. The Facebook was supposed to be a place for Harvard kids to make friends. Mark Zuckerberg could not have understood that the website he was building would help change the shape of our discourse, usher in an Internet where everyone was always competing for attention, where the people who won that competition wouldn't need to tell the truth or challenge your existing beliefs or even be sane. That actually those attributes would just serve to slow you down. Sometimes I wonder if these questions we periodically ask about whether Meta should be run to please liberals or conservatives offer more free speech or less misinformation. If all that doesn't miss, the better. Do we actually want these social media platforms at all? But I digress. To return to our story, by 2013, the future is coming into focus. Facebook has gone public, reached a billion users, and acquired Instagram. And Mark Zuckerberg, who, remember, dropped out of college to build a website. A guy who, despite all his success, spent most of his time working in an office in California. He starts to look outwards. What problems could he solve in this world with all the money and power he's earned? What does he believe in? Here's Times reporter Mike Isaac.

[Mike Isaac]

There's these issues that, as he grows up under the spotlight, you know, he goes from early 20s to mid-20s.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Mike Isaac]

He starts figuring out things that he might start to care about. Okay, like. And often that's through the filter of friends and people around him.

[PJ Vogt]

This Mark Zuckerberg is an idealist. The words Mike uses are optimistic and naive about what it will mean to try to change the world for the better. He looks at education, disease prevention, and most notably immigration reform. He makes friends with a man named Jose Antonio Vargas. Vargas, a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and activist, someone who had come out publicly as an unauthorized immigrant. Zuckerberg decides he wants to help people like Vargas succeed in America. Here's Zuckerberg in 2013 talking to journalist James Bennett, who seems a little incredulous that Mark Zuckerberg thinks he can troubleshoot one of the most intractable issues in American society.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

So you were up on the Hill today. You met with House Republicans, I think, to talk about this. I wonder what your level of optimism is about actually getting something done in the short term. Well, you know, I'm optimistic, but I'm an entrepreneur, right? I mean, you don't go off and try to build something crazy if you're not optimistic fundamentally about the world. So I mean, what I see.

[PJ Vogt]

Zuckerberg says he's already been talking to politicians about comprehensive immigration reform. He says across the aisle people are interested in fixing the problem, finding a path to citizenship.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

But I mean, I've only encountered people who seem like they have good intentions and want to move this forward and care about the people in their districts. And what we're trying to do with forward us is, and obviously we're not writing the law, right? I mean, that's, I mean, all these folks know way more about, about the sensitivities than we do. We just want to be there to help support folks who are going to have to take challenging positions and on, on something that's going to be controversial but they ultimately believe is the right thing. So that's why we're here and what we're going to try to do to help out.

[PJ Vogt]

Mike Isaac says that this is another version of Zuckerberg he can remember once existing, a guy with a surprising amount of faith in the American political process.

[Mike Isaac]

What I've heard, what people I've talked to there was this earnest view of the world, or at least of Washington, where if I can go in and explain my views to these people in Congress, I will be able to have a sort of rigorous intellectual debate. And like, maybe we disagree on things, but we can sort of have that discourse there. Obviously he has enough paid Washington folks around him who find that idea absurd, but they're not gonna tell the boss, you are wildly naive and you have not come to the level of cynicism that you need to engage in Washington, but I think that that probably explains the early years of some of these initiatives.

[PJ Vogt]

After the break, the cruel world conspires to break the heart of an idealistic billionaire, and the path to Trump begins This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Lumen. Are you ready to jumpstart your health in 2020? Lumen can help. Lumen is the world's first handheld metabolic coach. It's a device that measures your metabolism through your breath and on the app it lets you know if you're burning fat or carbs and gives you tailored guidance to improve your nutrition, workouts, sleep and even stress management. All you have to do is breathe into your Lumen first thing in the morning and you'll know what is going on with your metabolism, whether you're burning mostly fat or carbs. Then Lumen gives you a personalized nutrition plan for that day based on your measurements. You can also breathe into it before and after workouts and meals so you know exactly what's going on in your body in real time. And Lumen will give you tips to keep you on top of your health game. Because your metabolism is at the center of everything your body does, optimal metabolic health translates to a bunch of benefits, including easier weight management, improved energy levels, better fitness results, better sleep, and more. Take the next step to improving your health. Go to Lumen Me Search to get 20% off your lumen. That's L u m e n me search for 20% off your purchase. This episode is brought to you in part by Bombas. Well, it's officially too cold to do anything. The upside? You can cocoon yourself in Bombas socks, slippers and underwear all winter long. Bombas are extremely cozy and the secret is their fabrics. We're talking about the good stuff like merino wool, which feels as cozy as a ski lodge. But if you want to brave the cold on the slopes or in a snowy run, Bombas has athletic socks built for that too. And Bombas has thought of every detail like they know that little things can make a big difference. So they removed all the itchy tags, fixed that annoying toe seam and perfected the fit of everything. No more socks that slip down or underwear that rides up. The Bombas product I have been eyeing is their slippers. I have perpetually cold feet and so I am admiring the warm fluffy Sherpa lining and the marshmallow like cushioning. I've said this before, I really like Bombas socks People in my family steal my socks. I ordered a huge amount of red Bomba socks so that they would not be stolen. They've been stolen anyway. I have to order more socks. Try Bombas now. You can head over to bombas.comenjin and use the code ENJIN for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S.com engine code engine at checkout. December 1, 2015. Mark Zuckerberg's first daughter is born to Mark. The day he posts on Facebook a letter he and his wife have written to her. It's a glimpse of how Mark Zuckerberg, in that moment, sees things. He says that the world is getting better, even if the news focuses on what's wrong. But he lists some of the problems that still need solving. If you fear you'll go to prison rather than college because of the color of your skin, or that your family will be deported because of your legal status, or that you may be a victim of violence because of your religion, sexual orientation or gender identity, then it's difficult to reach your full potential. And in the same post, Mark Zuckerberg makes a startling announcement. He promises most of his wealth at the time, about $45 billion, to a new organization he's starting with his wife, dedicated to making the world a better place. His wife, Dr. Priscilla Chan, is a pretty extraordinary character in her own right. A first generation American, the daughter of Chinese, Vietnamese refugees, first in her immediate family to go to college, Harvard, where she'd volunteered at housing projects five days a week while studying to become a pediatrician. Chan and her story seem obviously to have influenced her husband. Their new organization, the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, its priorities will include immigration reform and education. The view here seems to be Obama era liberal, that life is fundamentally unfair and that those who have succeeded have a responsibility to try to iron out that unfairness for everybody else. Again, this is 2015. Ten years from now, Mark Zuckerberg will be hosting the inauguration party for a president whose political priorities include mass deportations and tax cuts for billionaires. But that's now. This was then. Mike Isaac, the New York Times reporter, has spent a lot of time reporting on the factors behind Zuckerberg's shift. We're going to walk you through them, starting with factor number one, 2016. Trump's victory over Hillary Clinton and the country's reaction to that victory. Democracy itself in the most powerful nation.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

On earth may have been undermined by fake news.

[PJ Vogt]

The President elect of the United States. States of America, Donald Trump.

[Mike Isaac]

Immediately, there's this slew of articles basically pointing at Facebook saying, this has to be the reason that Donald Trump was elected.

[Casey Newton]

During the election season, Facebook was paid at least $100,000 by Russian troll farms for advertising.

[Mike Isaac]

You know, it's funny now because, like, this is still seen as like, an aberration in democracy, right? Like, there's no way that the American people could have elected Donald Trump. This had to be manipulation from foreign governments. This had to be the spread of disinformation across Facebook. And, like, look, those things did happen, do happen, right? But that was, like, the only way people could accept that this happened in their minds.

[Casey Newton]

Facebook has come under fire recently for its role in last year's election. Reports have surfaced showing the social networking site was a breeding ground for misinformation.

[Mike Isaac]

All the guns turn on Zuckerberg and Facebook on both sides of the aisle. The Republicans were already going after him, but the Democrats are now are now looking at him. So he has no friends.

[PJ Vogt]

Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg will testify before Congress on the Cambridge analytica scandal. Zuckerberg 2018. Zuckerberg has to go to Washington to both the Senate and the House to answer for both the election and his latest privacy scandal. Zuckerberg will try to explain how a data mining company got a hold of information from 87 million Facebook users. Congress will also press for details on how Russians used fake accounts.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Chairman Grassley, Chairman Thune, Ranking Member Feinstein, and Ranking Member Nelson and members of the committee.

[PJ Vogt]

Mark Zuckerberg, in a navy blue suit, light blue tie, ancient Roman hairstyle. The hoodie's gone. He's 33, looks the part of a young CEO. His eyes are wide open and fixed, like the big blink you take after putting in a contact lens.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

We face a number of important issues around privacy, safety, and democracy. And you will rightfully have some hard questions for me to answer.

[Mike Isaac]

This was, I would say, the period where they were trying to fix it, and I think in an earnest attempt now, there's limits to that later on. But I think this was like the okay, we messed up, how do we fix it sort of period.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

But it's clear now that we didn't do enough to prevent these tools from being used for harm as well. And that goes for fake news, for foreign interference in elections and hate speech, as well as developers and data privacy. We didn't take a broad enough view of our responsibility, and that was a big mistake, and it was my mistake, and I'm sorry.

[Mike Isaac]

I think he saw it as a kind of penance that he had to do and say, like, look, I'm gonna come, I'm gonna explain myself in good faith again, because that's what we're doing. And I can point to the literal billions of dollars and many thousands of people we've hired to fix this problem, and then you will all understand, of course.

[PJ Vogt]

And what happens instead, they do not understand. Or, look, they may understand and they.

[Mike Isaac]

Don'T give a shit anyway. You know, like, it's the level of cynicism of Washington. Like, look, I'm not saying Zuckerberg is right. I'm not saying he came to the Hill with the correct point of view, but I think to the degree that I'm aware of his mentality, he thought that going and explaining what they were doing would solve some of these problems, and it didn't.

[PJ Vogt]

Mr. Zuckerberg, I remember well your first visit to Capitol Hill back in 2010. This is an exchange that would become somewhat legendary. Republican Senator Orrin Hatch, 84 at the time, meaning that the cutting edge technology of his college years would have been the color television. You spoke to the Senate Republican high tech task force, which I chair. You said back then that Facebook would always be free.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Is that still your objective, Senator? Yes. There will always be a version of Facebook that is free. It is our mission to try to help connect everyone around the world and to bring the world closer together. In order to do that, we believe that we need to offer a service that everyone can afford, and we're committed to doing that.

[PJ Vogt]

Well, if so, how do you sustain a business model in which users don't pay for your service?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Senator, we run ads.

[Mike Isaac]

I see Zuckerberg's like, sort of pithy response that becomes a meme. In Silicon Valley or at Menlo park, where his headquarters is, they make little stickers that say Senator Wiso ads making fun of Congress. And that senator in particular placed them all over their laptops and stuff. It's like this moment of kind of almost contempt because you're supposed to be having this high minded, elevated discussion and instead these people, he doesn't even want to talk to show up completely unprepared in his eyes to give this level of questioning.

[PJ Vogt]

These hearings, not all the questioning is unreasonable. Some of it's sharp. But there is a lot that runs from confused grandparent not understanding Internet to confused, somewhat angry grandparent also not understanding Internet.

[Mike Isaac]

Here's what everybody's been trying to tell.

[PJ Vogt]

You today, and I say this gently, your user agreement sucks. Republican John Neely Kennedy of Louisiana choosing to use his time on the floor as he sees fit.

[Mike Isaac]

I'm gonna suggest to you that you.

[Casey Newton]

Go back home and rewrite it and.

[PJ Vogt]

Tell your $1,200 an hour lawyers, no disrespect, they're good, but tell them you want it written in English and non swahili.

[Mike Isaac]

There's so much political theater going on in any congressional hearing, and a lot of it is if you watch any one of these, one senator or one congressperson will get a couple of minutes to yell at a CEO on their pet issue and carve that up into 30 second soundbites. Then they can then distribute to their constituents on social media to prove that their Congress person is worth being in Congress. Right. So the goal of a hearing a lot of the times is not to get anywhere substantive. It's just to flog someone in public.

[PJ Vogt]

There's, of course, an irony here. Mark Zuckerberg showing up again and again to Capitol Hill imagining he's going to have substantive conversations with these politicians who instead are just trying to make short, good clips for the gram. Meaning he was a victim here of dynamics amplified by his own social media platforms, dynamics his businesses in some ways relied on. Mike says for years, somehow it was like Mark Zuckerberg was unable to grasp the underlying reality. He thought these politicians wanted conversation, that the right set of words in the right order might allow him to be understood. But Mike says by 2020, even Mark Zuckerberg had become disabused of the naivete that permitted him to believe that American politicians wanted to understand or work with him. And if Zuckerberg's faith in the system was reaching a bottom, then something else was about to happen to help him find newer depths. The next factor in Zuckerberg's path towards Trump, the pandemic.

[Mike Isaac]

So Covid hits in 2020. Everyone goes through crisis mode. Obviously, the tech industry has to reconfigure how it works. People are being forced indoors and flocking online to these different websites like his and record numbers. I had this one phone call with him on the record where he's like, yeah, we're just fighting to keep the lights on over here because people are on Facebook and Instagram and all this shit, like in record numbers, like their servers are on fire.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, so they just have like the engineering problem of, like Taylor Swift ticket day, but for Facebook, all of a sudden, a website that's existed at this point for 16 years, all day, every day.

[Mike Isaac]

Yes. This is also the days where either we don't know a lot about COVID and how the spread of it works or what the virus does, or what the vaccine does, or what the cure is or whatever, right? And like Zuckerberg says later that he starts getting really hammered by the Biden administration.

[Casey Newton]

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

[PJ Vogt]

What Mike's referring to there is some recent interviews Zuckerberg has given. For instance, last week's with Joe Rogan where he talks quite candidly about how frustrating it was to run a social media company during the COVID era.

[Mike Isaac]

This recent announcement that you did in.

[PJ Vogt]

His Rogan appearance, it's clearly the news. Zuckerberg, the same one who took to Instagram reels to change his moderation policies.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

You know, we've been on a long, a long journey here, but listening to.

[PJ Vogt]

The conversation's three hour sprawl, I got a clearer sense of the guy and it helped me begin to answer a question I and a lot of people have been having lately. How are these tech CEOs finding a new home in Magaland in the Big Ten anti wokeism that Joe Rogan represents? I've listened to a lot of Zuckerberg interviews and with Rogan, there's a quality I've never before detected. He sounds comfortable. They talk like two newish friends, each with some small influence on the other. Zuck gets compliments about his Brazilian Jiu jitsu training.

[Mike Isaac]

Walked in here today.

[Casey Newton]

You look thicker.

[Mike Isaac]

You look like a different guy. You do.

[Casey Newton]

You look like a jiu jitsu guy now.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

It's funny, I saw your neck. I'm like, his neck's bigger. Your neck is bigger. Good.

[PJ Vogt]

Joe learns about a zombie hunting VR game he might like.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

My zombie game is Arizona Sunshine.

[Casey Newton]

Oh, that one.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Oh, it's you. Just like. It can be multiplayer and there's horde mode where you just get in there.

[PJ Vogt]

And it's a rogue interview. So you get honestly, everything. Sports, injuries, peptides, AI, safety, a late interview pee break. For our purposes today though, what sticks out is how fired up this new Mark Zuckerberg sounds when he talks about what it was like running Facebook during COVID How at first he didn't mind censoring what he considered obviously dangerous information. But how that began to change.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

I was sympathetic to that. At the beginning of COVID it seemed like, okay, you have this virus. It seems like it's killing a lot of people. I don't know if we didn't know at the time how dangerous it was going to be. So at the beginning it kind of seemed like, okay, we should give a little bit of deference to the government. And the health authorities on how we should play this. But when it went from, you know, two weeks to flatten the curve to, you know, and, like, in the beginning, it was like, okay, there aren't enough masks. Masks aren't that important to. Then it's like, oh, no, you have to wear a mask. And, you know, like, everything was shifting around. It should become very difficult to kind of follow. And this really hit the most extreme, I'd say, during. It was during the Biden administration when they were trying to roll out the vaccine program. And I'm generally pretty pro rolling out vaccines. I think, on balance, the vaccines are more positive than negative. But I think that while they're trying to push that program, they also tried to censor anyone who is basically arguing against it. And they pushed us super hard to take down things that were honestly were true. Right. I mean, they basically pushed us and said anything that says that vaccines might have side effects, you basically need to take down. And I was just like, well, we're not gonna do that. We're clearly not gonna do that. I mean, that is kind of inarguably true. Who's telling you to take down things? Yeah, it was.

[Casey Newton]

It was talk about vaccine side effects.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

It was people in the. In the Biden administration. I think it was.

[PJ Vogt]

Zuckerberg's story is that Covid is what ultimately changed him, that he couldn't believe that he, a tech CEO, had had to explain the First Amendment to the US Government. It's right there in the country's terms of service. That's the story he tells Rogan. It might be entirely true. It could be partly strategic. Where I'm sure I believe him is when he expresses how little faith he has left in our traditional institutions, the government, the media. He talks a lot about how legacy media will be gone soon, replaced, he hopes, by independent creators like Rogan. It's clear he cannot wait.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

And since then, I think generally, trust in media has fallen off a cliff.

[PJ Vogt]

Right.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

So I don't think I'm alone in that journey. I think that's basically the experience that a lot of people have had is okay. It's. The stuff that's being written about is not kind of all accurate. And even if the facts are right, it's kind of written from a slant a lot of the time, of course. And then there was the government version of it, which is during COVID which is okay. Like, it's like our government is telling us that we need to censor true things. It's like, this is a disaster.

[PJ Vogt]

So that's factor two, Covid. And there's another factor that emerged around the same time. Factor three, the circular firing squad. There's this political science term for Americans who basically identify as liberals, but who find other liberals deeply annoying. They're called liberals, meaning life anywhere left of center in this country means often being annoyed or even enraged by the people you theoretically have the most in common with. But some of those annoyed people stay in the coalition, and others defect. And the old Mark Zuckerberg had seemed able to tolerate progressive allies who often viewed him with extreme suspicion. Take his philanthropic initiative, the one that he and his wife had set up to spend tens of billions of their own dollars to try to solve the world's most intractable problems. Even back when he'd announced it, some critics had accused him of doing the whole thing as some kind of elaborate tax dodge.

[Mike Isaac]

I mean, on a really base level for him and for Priscilla, I think there's part of it where they're like, we are billionaires trying to give away all of our money to you, and you're still giving me the middle finger. What is that about? Right. Like, there's a lot of, how are you being this ungrateful or spiteful or like, me clearly trying to do what I think is the right thing and still not, like, I can't win sort of thing. I try to be a correctly behaving, selfless billionaire, and you say that instead. It's all me being manipulative or trying to make this work to my ends, so why even try? In some of these regards, all this.

[PJ Vogt]

Facebook money was being viewed suspiciously in progressive circles. Noses were turned up. And at other times, being aligned with more polarizing causes would get Meta in trouble. For instance, all the work they'd done on immigration reform did not make them a lot of friends in Trump's first administration. So Mark Zuckerberg evolved, and the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative went from a place trying to solve some of the world's thorniest problems to a place that chose causes not connected to any of our country's eight or nine ongoing culture wars.

[Mike Isaac]

As czi, their philanthropic arm, sort of grows in, Dobbs came and struck down Roe v. Wade. There were folks inside who wanted to make a strong stand against that and focus on giving money to abortion aid across different states in the country. And there was a moment where Priscilla internally sent a memo saying, our mission is not to focus on this. We need to focus on other things, like, basically any throw a dart at, like, the dartboard of contentious social issues. Of our time. And they were like, we do not want to touch that shit anymore. Let's focus on STEM and science and cancer research and eliminating all disease is the thing he likes to say. Right? And that, I think, is the thing they shifted more toward as they had to worry about. You know, does this put a political target on our back?

[PJ Vogt]

The same hot cultural winds causing Zuckerberg to think about his philanthropy more carefully were making life more complicated inside Meta Meta Employees had started to have their own fights about free speech within the company. What people should say, what they shouldn't, what they had to. There'd been this incident years earlier in 2016, where Mark Zuckerberg had reprimanded an anonymous employee who'd crossed out the words Black Lives Matter on a chalkboard at Facebook and written over them, all Lives Matter. Zuckerberg reprimanding the employee was unusual for him since it amounted in a sense, to real life speech moderation. And it set an expectation for his employees about his values that actually made it trickier to navigate what would happen just a few Years later in 2020, the era of the George Floyd protests.

[Mike Isaac]

When internally people were speaking out about it, obviously. But, like, what would happen would be some employees would go after other employees for saying, you're not speaking out in the way I would like you to.

[PJ Vogt]

Right.

[Mike Isaac]

Or you're not being vocal enough, you're not tweeting about it, you're not posting about it, or whatever. And I think any reasonable person could have a discussion whether you think that's okay or not, right? Like, I think that's fine to argue, but it ended up in this really contentious point inside of Facebook where, you know, the company endorsed it at one point, but what are the limits of that? Where should they intervene and say, you're not allowed to say this anymore. And Zuckerberg in particular, I think it bothers him to be like, okay, well, do. And I'm putting words in his mouth, but do the wokists sort of have the right to tell me what I should or shouldn't be saying publicly? And this is the thing that sort of bothers me now about the way he's talking about coming clean or, like, going back to their roots on speech and stuff like that is it almost feels like he's casting himself as a passive participant in his company and the way it's running. Right? Like, I think it bothers me because it just feels conveniently passive in retrospect, especially for his posturing now, if that makes sense.

[PJ Vogt]

I think it does. I Mean, I think what I hear you saying is, like, there's another way he could tell this story where he could say, like, look, in 2020, like, a lot of people thought that the most salient issues in American life were things that progressives cared about, like racial inequity and racial discrimination. And I thought corporations should help solve those problems. And I still think those problems are important. There's other problems I want to solve. I'm not sure corporations should be on the front lines of solving those problems. In fact, the reason everyone got mad at the corporations was because all they were ever going to do is pay lip service. Because, like, those aren't problems a software company is going to solve. And I just feel differently. And what's hard is instead he's saying, I was made to do this. And if the answer is you were made to do this, almost everyone else in society could say, well, all of a sudden, there was tons of pressure being generated, largely by social media. But, Mark, you created social media. Yeah.

[Mike Isaac]

You are the wizard of Oz, man. Like, come on. Yes. The way you put it feels 100% more honest to me, or at least something that I would accept as an answer. Whether you agree with it or not, I think that's reasonable. And I think he's probably not in that point of view. Right. I think there's probably a lot of people who may feel differently than they did three or four years ago, but I also think that is where we meet. The other reason he's doing this positioning now, which is the rise of Trump.

[PJ Vogt]

The final factor, what Joe Rogan might call the fear factor. This is the factor that hangs over and confounds everything. Mark Zuckerberg has a lot to gain if he can get on Trump's good side. If Trump even just lets the TikTok ban go through, that alone would be a bonanza for Instagram. And Trump's bad side is a dangerous place for a social media executive to be. Last August, before he won the election, Trump was already threatening Zuckerberg. He wrote, quote, if he does anything illegal this time, he will spend the rest of his life in prison, as will others who cheat in the 2024 presidential election. Trump's referring, it seems, to Zuckerberg's moderation policies in 2020, as well as some donations that his initiative made to polling station safety during the pandemic, which Trump did not like. Just last week, when Zuckerberg announced that he'd be changing Mehta's moderation policies, firing the fact checkers, a reporter at a Trump press conference asked the incoming president what he thought of these changes. Meta said today would stop putting fact.

[Mike Isaac]

Checks on its website and instead allow community.

[PJ Vogt]

Well, I watched their news conference and I thought it was a very good news conference.

[Mike Isaac]

I think they've.

[PJ Vogt]

Honestly, I think they've come a long way. Meta. Facebook, I think they've come a long way.

[Mike Isaac]

I watched it.

[PJ Vogt]

The man was very impressive. I watched it, actually, I watched it on Fox. I'm not allowed to say that. Say it.

[Mike Isaac]

Do you think he's directly responding to the threats that you have made to him in the past?

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah, probably, if you missed that, Trump said probably. Yeah, probably, meaning he thinks Zuckerberg got the message. So these are the factors. The winds all blowing Mark Zuckerberg rightward, frustration with a left that distrusts tech billionaires, frustration with progressive culture post 2020In general, a lost trust in the government during COVID and an understanding that Trump is just a better friend than he is an enemy. That's the Mark Zuckerberg we have for now.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Hey, everyone, I want to talk about something important today because it's time to get back to our roots around free expression on Facebook and Instagram.

[PJ Vogt]

Which brings us back to the Instagram reel, where Zuckerberg told us about his new vision for Meta.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

But the bottom line is that after years of having our content moderation work focused primarily on removing content, it is time to focus on reducing mistakes, simplifying our systems, and getting back to our roots about giving people voice.

[PJ Vogt]

We're going to take a short break and then we will close our show by returning to Casey Newton, who's going to explain how this new version of Mark Zuckerberg's new version of his platforms is going to actually work in practice. What we should expect online as we walk into the first days of the second Trump presidency.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

I'm looking forward to this next chapter. Stay good out there and more to come soon.

[Mike Isaac]

SA.

[PJ Vogt]

This episode is brought to you in part by Rosetta Stone. It's the new Year. People are making all sorts of resolutions. Here's a good one. Learn a new language. You can use Rosetta Stone, the most trusted language learning program, which is available on desktop or as an app. It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. Rosetta Stone is a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered. Spanish, French, Italian, German, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Dutch, Arabic and Polish. The built in True Accent feature gives you feedback on your pronunciation. It's like having a personal trainer for your accent. Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. That's Lifetime access To all, all 25 language courses Rosetta Stone offers for 50% off a steal. Start the New Year's off with a resolution you can reach today. Search engine listeners can take advantage of this Rosetta Stone lifetime membership for 50% off visit rosetta stone.com searchengine that's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your Life. Redeem your 50% off@Rosetta Stone.com today. This episode is brought to you in part by Grammarly. 89% of business leaders say AI is a top priority. But with AI tools popping up everywhere, how do you separate the helpful from the hype? The right choice is crucial, which is why teams at one third of Fortune 500 companies use Grammarly. With over 15 years of experience building responsible, secure AI, Grammarly isn't just another AI communication assistant. It's how companies like yours increase productivity while keeping data protected and private. Designed to fit the needs of business, Grammarly is backed by a user first privacy policy and industry leading security credentials. That means you won't have to worry about the safety of your company information. Grammarly also emphasizes responsible AI so your company can avoid harmful bias. See why 70,000 teams and 30 million people trust [e-mail] Enterprise that's [e-mail] Enterprise Grammarly Enterprise Ready AI this episode is brought to you in part by Rocket Money. The start of the new year is the perfect time to get organized, set goals, and prioritize whatever matters most. For me, a perfect perpetual priority is getting on top of my finances, which feels more important than ever. Thanks to Rocket Money, my goals feel achievable. They show me all my subscriptions right in one place and help me easily cancel ones that I forgot I've been paying for. Rocket Money also pulls together all of my terrible spending habits across all of my different accounts so I can clearly track my spending habits and see where I can cut back. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. My taxicab habit got a little bit bad in November when the weather was crappy and Rocket Money got me to stop. It was really helpful. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year and using all of the app's Premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com search today. That's RocketMoney.com search RocketMoney.com search welcome back to the show. We started today talking to Casey Newton of Platformer about these changes Mark Zuckerberg had announced at Meta. And while Zuckerberg had laid out a big picture vision for his sites in his Instagram reel over the week, many more details emerged, some of them because Casey actually got his hands on sensitive internal documents meant only for Meta's moderators. So I wanted to end this week with Casey his views on some of the stranger unintended consequences of these new rules and where Mark Zuckerberg might be heading. I found myself pretty surprised. Here's our conversation. Okay, so first of all, just like in general, these announcements, like how big a deal are these changes in your world?

[Casey Newton]

These are the most important changes that Meta has made to content moderation and just basically what it feels like to use Facebook or Instagram since the aftermath of the 2016 US presidential election.

[PJ Vogt]

And would you say that the changes are as big as that?

[Mike Isaac]

Bigger.

[PJ Vogt]

I know these are like hard things to quantify.

[Casey Newton]

It is going to take us some time to understand not just what the new policies are, although we do know a lot about that now, but also how they are enforced. One of the major changes is that instead of proactively scanning every post to see what policies it might violate, Meta is now going to rely on users to report things that potentially have violated those guidelines. It is going to take us some time to understand what the effect of that is. Does bad stuff on these platforms continue to get reported and sort of removed if it needs to be. Or with more conversations taking place in private groups and private chats where maybe bad stuff is less likely to be reported. Maybe a lot of it just kind of skates underneath the radar. Or maybe stuff gets reported but doesn't get taken down. So there's still many, many swirling questions. But when I've talked to executives at the company about what they think this means, they've said the overall effect is you should expect us to take a lot less action on posts on Facebook and Instagram in general.

[PJ Vogt]

Okay, so there are some people who look at these changes and they think the same way that X's policies, when it was Twitter were more designed to make, like progressives and journalists happy, now it's shifted so they're trying to welcome the right crypto people and pornographers. This is just like Facebook making Its version of its shift. It wants to be more friendly to libertarians and the center right. Do you see this as that sort of adjustment, or do you see it as something bigger?

[Casey Newton]

I do see it as that sort of adjustment. And I would offer a reason that Meta is doing this that is perhaps a bit less discussed, which is that for many years now, when Meta would pull users about their criticisms of the company, what they didn't like about using Facebook or Instagram, the number one thing that they would get back is that Meta had taken action against their post, that they had published something that they thought was benign and found that it been removed, that they had been put in what is sometimes called Facebook jail and weren't allowed to post for some time. This drives people insane. And that is a real thing. I've had an Instagram story, got a strike on it. I posted a tweet that made some sort of joke about Al Qaeda, and I got some sort of notification accusing me of offering material support to terrorism. That is an annoying thing. Well, I don't want to get into it on the advice of my lawyer, pj, but, like, that is an annoying thing. And of course, it is exasperating to be falsely accused of something that you didn't do. Right?

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Casey Newton]

And Meta was effectively doing this millions of times a day to people, and it was truly infuriating people. And if you think about the composition of Meta's user base, particularly on Facebook in the United States, which is what they pay the most attention to, I.e. a user base that is getting older, that leans much more to the right than maybe the median journalist or the critics of the company. And we've also seen through empirical studies that people on the right are more likely to share misinformation, and they're more likely, as a result, to have their content taken action on.

[PJ Vogt]

I see.

[Casey Newton]

So what that means is that over time, this truly was becoming a worse and worse problem for Meta, with Facebook in particular, because their policies were disproportionately affecting some of their best customers.

[PJ Vogt]

I see. But you think, generally speaking, like, this will apply to people who are more to the right. But also it'll apply like, one of the emails I get kind of a lot, actually, is tattoo artists are, like, often running into Instagram moderation problems. Like, even groups like that are just, like, less likely to run into a robot telling them they've broken a rule.

[Casey Newton]

Yes. And this touches on left and liberal politics as well. There's been good empirical reporting that Meta disproportionately removed content expressing support for Palestine. This gets a bit wonky as well. Hamas is designated by the United States as a terrorist group, and Meta will downrank content that is linked to designated terrorist groups. And so people on the left who've been trying to express their support for Palestine have seen their posts removed. Another long running complaint on the left is that sex workers constantly have their posts removed from Facebook and Instagram, even if the posts themselves are relatively benign. And so there may be a world in which we see more left and liberal speech on these properties. And, you know, again, we're just gonna have to sort of wait and see. But at least as written, there are elements of these changes that would seem to benefit the left. And right now I would also say they specifically carved out exceptions to their hate speech policy, seemingly specifically to appease Republicans when it comes to LGBT people and immigrants. But that is a different thread in the story.

[PJ Vogt]

So tell me, what are these carve outs?

[Casey Newton]

So Meta communicates its policies in two ways. One, there is a public set of guidelines which tend to be fairly high level. And then there is a second secret set of guidelines that are distributed to the Meta employees and contractors who actually have to enforce those guidelines when they're looking at posts.

[PJ Vogt]

So it's like the high level guidelines we all get to see are like, thou shalt not kill, but then actually what that means, how to actually follow these rules. That goes to the teams.

[Casey Newton]

That's right. And last week, great publication called Platformer published some of these guidelines. Pj. I happened to get a hold of some of them and I was really struck by these guidelines that were given to moderators on the question, do insults about mental illness and abnormality violate when targeting people on the basis of gender or sexual orientation? So in the past you could not say, for example, gay people are insane, pj. Today you can say that gay people are insane, which is something that typically I only approve of when gay people are saying to each other at brunch. But now it's anything goes.

[PJ Vogt]

Wait, and let me ask why?

[Casey Newton]

What is the justification?

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah, why make a rule saying you can say gay people are insane?

[Casey Newton]

The justification is that this is now just part of what Meta calls the mainstream discourse, which is essentially whether you view these statements as harmful or not. And I view them as harmful. Meta would say, well, it's being debated on the floor of Congress and there should not be anything that can be debated on the floor of Congress that could not be debated on our properties as well. That sounds like a really savvy point. But then you realize that there is actually a law in Congress that enables members of Congress to say literally anything with no legal consequences. The floor of Congress is the single most protected speech zone in the entire United States.

[PJ Vogt]

Wait, really? What does that mean?

[Casey Newton]

I have to look that up, too. Mike Masnick wrote a great post about it at Techdirt. But, for example, the big one is like, you can slander your political rivals, so you could say, pick your congressman. You could accuse them of a heinous crime, and you could not be held liable for that.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Casey Newton]

Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, my point is just Congress, maybe not the best example of where we want to set our speech rules, because truly, anything goes there. But the truly most alarming part of these new guidelines to me was in these new guidelines, Meta says you are allowed to say, a trans woman isn't a woman, it's a pathetic, confused man, or a trans person isn't a he or she, it's an it. Again, I regard that language as very harmful. It is dehumanizing. Like, truly just actually denying the humanity of another person. And now you have people at Meta who are just writing these statements and giving users carte blanche to say them, and also to say, this will not be removed.

[PJ Vogt]

So life on Facebook, on threads, on Instagram, the discourse you can expect to see there, it's about to change. I had one final question for Casey about the man behind all this, Mark Zuckerberg. So, like, I spent a week just trying to do something that I don't do every week, which is just understand Mark Zuckerberg as a person as much as I can. I feel like the portrait I get of him is somebody who I feel like at some point he at least made choices and expressed values that seemed more like center left. And he's become somebody who believes that being an ally of the left is just not strategic for him. He seems annoyed by the left. He seems. He just doesn't think it helps his business. But what I wonder about a little bit is the long term play here, because Donald Trump does not actually like free speech like, he likes when people say nice things about him. But he has a very long track record of using the government to interfere with private businesses, which Mark Zuckerberg clearly hates, and of punishing people who say things that Donald Trump doesn't like. So, like, I understand that on the left, there's right now fear and anger about Mark Zuckerberg sort of turning all the dials rightward. But I guess what I wonder is like how long do you think Mark Zuckerberg can stay on Donald Trump's good side? And how long do you think Donald Trump would stay on his?

[Casey Newton]

I mean, that is like basically asking me to predict the position of an atom in two years. Like, good luck to any of us who would hazard a guess. The range of possibilities for that question is like, basically infinite.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Casey Newton]

But maybe I could, like, sort of sketch out two scenarios.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Casey Newton]

One scenario I've been thinking about is this question of will the social networks that we once had, which were very large and monolithic, splinter into more partisan versions of themselves? And so eventually you have, like the Fox News version of Facebook, and this actually did start to come to pass. You see the rise of a platform like a truth social or a parlor. Right. One scenario that I've been thinking about the past couple of days is like, maybe Facebook becomes the Fox News version of Facebook. Right. Maybe there is just this kind of right word lurch in social networking in general, because when meta runs the numbers and they're obsessive about numbers, they just find this is better for our business. And if there is some tiny remnant of screeching liberals, they can go elsewhere and meta will be fine. So, like, that is a possibility.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Casey Newton]

The other scenario, though, is that this is just Mark Zuckerberg making another 20 year mistake in the opposite direction. And in the same way that he gave the left so much of what they asked for after 2016 and found that he got nothing for it, he will now give the right everything that they asked for for so many years, and we'll find that he gets almost nothing for it. Right. It's the kind of if you give a mouse a cookie problem. Right. Okay. You have now sold out all trans people to the Republican Party. Did you think they were gonna stop there? No. There's gonna be another ask. Right. So how do you actually get the result that you want that way? The other reason that I'm likelier, I think, to believe in this scenario is you look at the problems that Facebook is having right now in the majority of state legislatures around the country. So many states are trying to prevent or dramatically limit the amount of time that teenagers can spend on social media, in some cases trying to block them from using social media altogether because of these child safety issues on the platform. And so this moment when Facebook is under so much scrutiny for all of the harms that befall children on their platforms, for them to say, well, this is the moment that we're kind of just gonna stop analyzing any posts to see if they're bad until a user reports them, that could be a world where a lot more kids get hurt. And that puts even more pressure on Facebook and it makes even more people mad at them. So that is truly one of the big question marks for me in all of this is how does a company wind up reconciling that? So, anyway, those are two visions that I see.

[PJ Vogt]

They seem, honestly, kind of compatible. I mean, first of all, I tend to. To the degree that, like, I mean, God, there's nothing dumber than making a prediction about the future and recording it and broadcasting it. But it seems like Facebook could both become the Fox News version of itself, and Mark Zuckerberg could eventually realize that there were downsides to this, and that what he seems to want more than anything, which is autonomy from government interference, is not something that the right is likely to provide him.

[Casey Newton]

No, it really is not going to.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah, it's also funny watching. I was looking at his, like, the comments on his appearance on Rogan, and it's just like, these people are not your friends, man.

[Casey Newton]

They're really not. They're really not. Disdain for Mark Zuckerberg is a truly bipartisan phenomenon. The other thing just wrapping up here is, you know, I was reflecting that at the end of our conversation the other day, you made some remark to the effect of, like, well, gosh, Casey, like, you seem, you know, depressed. Yeah, and what I wish I had said at the time was, has it ever even occurred to you to ask me a fun question? Pj, I listened to your other episodes, and the guests get to be like, hey, why's your walking me through the history of balloon animals? Like, I would do that, too. But no, it's like, oh, hey, Casey, another piece of the Internet is falling into the ocean. Do you want to come gawk at the wreckage with me? So that's on you, pj.

[PJ Vogt]

Casey, I'm so sorry, but I would not want to watch the End of the World with anyone less delightful.

[Casey Newton]

Well, I, I. Likewise, likewise.

[PJ Vogt]

Casey Newton again. His wonderful newsletter is called Platformer, and he has a great podcast called Hard Fork. And as for Mike Isaac, you can find him at the New York Times, and he's working on a book about Mark Zuckerberg. If you've been enjoying the show, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts. Sounds crazy, but it actually helps people discover the show because of the very strange way their algorithm works. And if you'd like to get ad free episodes, zero reruns, the occasional bonus episode, please consider signing up for incognito mode. You can learn more at. Search Engine Show Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by Me, PJ Vogt and Shruti Pinamaneni and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact Checking this week by Claire Hyman and Holly Patton. Theme Original composition and mixing by Armin Bazarian. Additional production support from Sean Merchant. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss Berman and Leah Reese. Dennis thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perello and John Schmidt and to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gaynor, Matt Casey, Laura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney and Hillary Schaff. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum and uta. Follow and listen to Search Engine now for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time Week.

[Mike Isaac]

Nerds.

[PJ Vogt]

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