The Rage in the Cage

Summary

Podcast Summary: Search Engine – The Rage in the Cage
Date: October 17, 2025
Host: PJ Vogt
Guest: Pablo Torre

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Main Theme and Purpose

This episode of Search Engine delves into an unusual sports scandal: an MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) fighter named Mason Lewis used tickling as a tactic during a title match, causing a stir in the world of combat sports. Host PJ Vogt teams up with journalist and sports-show host Pablo Torre to unpack what the incident reveals about MMA, masculinity, sports culture, and the boundaries of acceptable competitiveness. The episode traces the quirky story of ‘the Tickler’ and ‘the Tickly,’ and explores broader questions about American conceptions of masculinity and taboo within sports.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sports as a Lens on America

• Pablo Torre’s Philosophy: Sports aren't just about athletics—they reflect politics, race, culture, business, and more.
  • “Sports is this giant tent in American life in which you’ll sit next to somebody who does not vote the same way as you...but you are engaged in the same blood feud against another tribe as them.” (PJ paraphrasing Pablo, 04:33)
• Liberal arts perspective: Sports offer a unique window into broader social dynamics and American identity.

2. The Scandal: Tickling in the Octagon

• The Incident (05:59-10:38):
  • Event: April 2024, “Rage in the Cage 24” - Mason Lewis vs. Tim Fargo for the New York State bantamweight title.
  • Scenario: Lewis, locked in a grappling hold (head between Fargo’s thighs), resorts to tickling Fargo’s foot—an act widely viewed as ‘unmanly’ or silly in the context of MMA.
  • Outcome: The tickle disrupts Fargo’s hold, Lewis escapes and goes on to win.
• On Masculinity:
  • The move was viewed as a violation of MMA’s hyper-masculine, no-nonsense code.
  • “They’re so masculine that they’re always touching each other.” (B/Pablo, 07:33)
  • The episode challenges the taboo against introducing “whimsy” into such an “anti-whimsy” space.

3. The Rise and Mainstreaming of MMA/UFC

• MMA and UFC Basics (15:44-26:09):
  • Overview of the Ultimate Fighting Championship as the leading MMA promotion.
  • MMA was long considered too violent (“human cockfighting”) and was illegal in many states until the early 2000s.
  • The surge in popularity tracked alongside reality TV (“The Ultimate Fighter”) and personalities like Joe Rogan (see below).
  • The sport’s appeal lies partly in its taboo status and visceral displays of masculinity.
  • Contrast with boxing: MMA’s use of mixed styles enables more extreme violence (e.g., leg locks, broken bones).

4. Joe Rogan, Podcast Culture, and the Gender Conversation

• Joe Rogan’s Role (26:09-32:12):
  • Rogan, originally an MMA announcer, helped bring the sport into mainstream internet culture via his podcast.
  • Rogan offers men a “different path” of self-improvement based on physicality, fighting, and being “better men.”
    • “There’s no better stress reliever in the world than jiu jitsu or martial arts...” (C/Joe Rogan, 29:34)
  • The hosts discuss contemporary anxieties about masculinity, and how martial arts provides both structure and a socially acceptable outlet for aggression.

5. Reactions to the Tickling Scandal

• Community Backlash (36:13-43:00):
  • Devotees of the sport were less offended by the “unmanly” act itself, than by the sense that outsiders were laughing at MMA and misunderstanding its seriousness.
  • MMA fans and officials worried about the sport being reduced to a punchline.
• Expert Opinion:
  • Interview with Big John McCarthy (MMA rules authority)—insists tickling isn’t significant or effective:
    • “I’ve never seen tickling ever stop anything in a fight.” (E/Big John, 42:21)

6. Talking to the Fighters: The Tickler & the Tickly

• The Tickler: Mason Lewis (47:01-51:23):
  • Lewis is portrayed as thoughtful and meditative, not a clown or showboat.
  • He claims the tickle was a spur-of-the-moment tactic:
    • “I don’t know why I did it. It was just like...I’m just going to tickle to get out of this.” (F/Mason Lewis, 49:57)
  • He believes it worked and would use it again: “If that’s what it takes.” (F/Mason Lewis, 50:41)
  • Lewis reveals his upbringing as the youngest of six siblings contributed to his mastery of tickling (and susceptibility to being tickled).
• The Tickly: Tim Fargo (52:58-54:51):
  • Fargo is respectful, not bitter; wants a rematch and would use tickling himself if necessary.
  • “It just kind of got me, like, mentally out of it a little bit more than like, actually making me want to let go, because then you’re just thinking, like, this guy’s tickling me in a fight.” (G/Tim Fargo, 54:00)
  • Both fighters express willingness for a rematch, with tickling potentially on the table as a tactic.

7. The Broader Meaning: Sports, Hack Moves, and Taboo

• Analysis (55:22-57:09):
  • The hosts liken tickling to other “hack moves” in sports—tactics that work, but are culturally discouraged because they damage the integrity or seriousness of the game.
  • The reaction isn’t so much about effectiveness as about preserving the sport’s image.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sports as Liberal Arts:
  • “Sports is a liberal arts education...I've never lacked for a reason to connect it to politics, culture, business, religion, race.”
    (B/Pablo Torre, 04:33)
• On the Tickling Scandal:
  • “He begins to tickle the bottom of Tim Fargo's foot.”
    (B/Pablo Torre, 07:55)
  • “You see a man in a ThighMaster lock with no way out. I see his little fingies come out. I see him tickle, and I see the fight change.”
    (A/PJ Vogt, 44:48)
• On Masculinity and MMA:
  • “I feel like I spent the first half of my life feeling so like all the problems that we culturally have with masculinity…I got beat up by men for, you know, 20 years.”
    (A/PJ Vogt, 31:29)
• On Competitive Edge in Sports:
  • “There is height, there is strength, there is your hormone level, and there is ticklishness.”
    (B/Pablo Torre, 52:27)
• On Sports, Hacks, and Taboo:
  • “Sports is full of stories in which there are these hacks that get more points, right?...I do think that there might be another incredibly tense climactic moment…And the thing they think of is the thing that Mason Lewis very intentionally decided to do.”
    (B/Pablo Torre, 55:55)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro and setup: 03:33–05:24
• Tickling incident explained: 05:59–10:38
• MMA/UFC origins and culture: 15:44–26:09
• Joe Rogan & masculinity: 26:09–32:12
• The MMA community’s reaction: 36:13–43:00
• Big John McCarthy interview (rules and legality): 40:01–43:39
• Interview attempts with “the Tickler”: 44:50–49:07
• Mason Lewis interview: 49:07–51:23
• Tim Fargo interview (“the Tickly”): 52:58–54:51
• Closing thoughts about taboo moves in sports: 55:22–57:09

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Conclusion

Despite its apparently lighthearted premise, The Rage in the Cage uses the odd spectacle of tickling in MMA to probe much deeper currents: the evolution and meaning of American masculinity, the boundary between seriousness and silliness in sport, and the uneasy balance of tradition versus innovation. Through engaging conversation, revealing interviews, and self-aware humor, PJ Vogt and Pablo Torre reveal why the story resonated—and ruffled so many feathers—far beyond the octagon.

Transcript

[A]

Hello Search Engine listeners. Before we start the show, a quick reminder. This Friday, October 17th, which is today, if you're listening to this the morning it comes out at noon Eastern, we're doing a live event where I take your stumpers. Those are unanswerable questions and I will intellectually humiliate myself trying to answer them. I'll be joined by a friend of the show, Kelefasaneh, who will also go down fighting. If you're an Incognito Mode subscriber who subscribed through Search Engine Choir, there'll be a link to this live event in your inbox. And if you miss it, we'll have a live recording of this for our Incognito Mode listeners up next week. If you're hearing this in the morning, there's still time to send me questions. Please do pjvote85mail.com okay, some quick ads and then this week's story. This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Zapier. Over the last few months, everyone's been talking about AI. It's in the headlines, it's on social feeds, and it's dominating conversations. But here's the thing. Talking about trends doesn't make anyone more efficient at work. For that, you need the right tools. You need Zapier. Zapier is how you break the hype cycle and put AI to work across your company for real. With Zapier's AI Orchestration platform, you can bring the power of AI to any workflow so your team can do more of what matters. Connect top AI models like ChatGPT and Claude to the tools your team already uses. Whether that's building AI powered workflows, running an autonomous agent that, setting up a customer chatbot, or something else entirely. You can orchestrate it with Zapier. Zapier is for everyone, tech expert or not. Teams across Rev Ops, marketing, sales, IT, HR and more have already automated over 300 million AI tasks using Zapier. Join the millions of businesses transforming how they work with Zapier and AI. Get started for free by visiting zapier.comsearch that's Z A P I E R zapier.comsearch. you know that moment when you're tracking down a lead and something just doesn't feel right? Maybe it's a source that doesn't seem accurate, or a technical explanation that sounds impressive but falls apart under scrutiny. That's when you need Claude not to give you easy answers, but to help you think through what's actually happening. Let's say you're trying to understand how a particular technology works. Upload the technical papers, ask Claude to break down the methodology. It doesn't just translate jargon. It helps you spot where the logic might be shaky. Or maybe you're researching a company's claims about their breakthrough innovation. Claude can search current sources, cross reference information, and help you see patterns that might not be obvious at first glance. It's built for those who don't stop at something being just good enough. Whether you're investigating emerging tech, following complex business stories, or just someone who finds themselves going down research rabbit holes, Claude matches that energy of wanting to really dig deep into the why. See why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. Try Claude for free at Claude AI search Engine. Before we get into the story or the question, can you just introduce yourself?

[B]

Yeah. My name is Pablo Torre. I am a journalist and the host of a show that is a video.

[A]

Do we call them video podcasts at this point? I don't know if it's like if podcasts are audio podcasts or video. Like, I don't know what we're doing exactly.

[B]

I think that's a fair summation. I also don't really know what I'm doing exactly, but I do it a lot.

[A]

You do it a lot? You do it a lot. You answer questions and sometimes do investigations. But the world that you like to cover is sports. And for me it's interesting because, like, you and I know each other a little bit. You launched your show. Pablo Torre finds out around the same time as search Engine. I feel like we have similar sensibilities, but it's just your sensibility is being applied to a world that I know very little about.

[B]

Yeah, I see sports as a liberal arts education, a sentiment that makes me ostracized in the world of sports.

[A]

What do you mean when you say you see sports as a liberal arts education?

[B]

It's a way to get to everything. I've been a sports journalist for my entire professional life, and I've never lacked for a reason to connect it to politics, culture, business, religion, race. I am a recovering sociologist. That's what I studied in college. And sports is this giant tent in American life in which you'll sit next to somebody who does not vote the same way as you or think the same way as you, but you are engaged in the same blood feud against another tribe as them. And so in that you get to this position, I think where we are right now, where sports ends up being useful to Study as a way of understanding. I don't know what the fuck America is anymore.

[A]

If Pablo's thesis is right and we can learn about America through sports, then the story he was here to tell me had some strange lessons about our country. Embedded within was a story of a sports scandal, which had drawn me in at first just because it seemed so deeply silly. A novel form of misbehavior was threatening to dishonor the core identity of a brutal American sport. Okay, so the story in question. We were on the phone. You told me about a scandal, a scandal with video, which we are going to watch first. I just want you to explain to our audience, which I think is less sports first than yours, like, what happened.

[B]

So there's a lot of, you know, mixed martial arts content that happens on the Internet, including this stream of a fight that was taking place in April of 2024 between a gentleman by the name of Mason Lewis against a fighter named Tim Far. This was a title fight in a lower division. It was, in fact, a New York State bantamweight fight.

[A]

Bantam means they're not very heavy.

[B]

Yeah, 135. Okay, 135. And this thing happens that kind of takes over the world of mixed martial arts in a way that I don't think mixed martial arts was prepared for. Because Mason Lewis, if you've ever seen. Trying to translate all of this for you, if you've ever seen that device Suzanne Somers sold called the ThighMaster. Yeah. Mason Lewis basically had his head between Tim Fargo's thighs, like he was being thigh mastered.

[A]

And that was, like, a way for him to, like, make him submit.

[B]

Yes. They were on the ground horizontal. All of this. If you're not visualizing it as deeply homoerotic, feel free to.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

It's a lot.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And Mason Lewis is stuck homoerotic, because he's.

[A]

His massive, powerful thighs are restraining this man's like, head and face between.

[B]

Yes, yes. And also, it's just MMA mixed martial arts. There's a lot of grappling.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And these guys are deeply shirtless and sweaty and unapologetic.

[A]

Right. Cause men are socialized. God, I'm sounding such a liberal arts weenie. But, like, you don't often, like, super masculine straight men often just don't touch each other. But here, there's a lot of touching each other.

[B]

They're so masculine that they're always touching each other. We've come around on. All the way around on the masculinity spectrum. And so we find ourselves at this inflection point in this title fight. And Mason Lewis decides to do something that I would say violates the fundamental code of masculinity.

[A]

Which is what?

[B]

He begins to tickle the bottom of Tim Fargo's foot.

[A]

And what, what type of tickle is it?

[B]

Like cartoon tickling the ivories. A feathery tickle, like you might tickle your, you know, little brother. Right.

[A]

So I just want to bring up the clip.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay, so this is from Full contact promotions on YouTube. Mason Lewis versus Tim Fargo. 135 pound MMA title fight. Rage in the cage. 24.

[B]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is your main.

[A]

Okay, what are we seeing? It hasn't happened yet.

[B]

It hasn't happened yet. But one guy looks like he is absolutely screwed.

[A]

Yeah. It starts. His head, which is like red face and clutched between these muscular thighs does look totally submitted.

[B]

Yeah. Like they were locked into one position. And then this hand with cut off fingers in this fighting glove, which is a key detail because the fingers are available for manipulation in a way where.

[A]

The boxer can never tickle.

[B]

Absolutely. This is a very MMA story for that reason. It seems to almost like a meerkat pokes its head out from its burrow. Mason Lewis unsheathes these little fingies and begins to feather the bottom of the foot of the leg and the thigh that had, yeah, truly turned his skull. A color of red that I think a pantone color wheel would only describe as rage in the cage.

[A]

Rage in the cage red.

[B]

Rage in the cage red.

[A]

And now like several seconds later, the tickler is now on top. That's crazy. It's also just like the arena itself is so dark, black, dank, cavernous, like.

[B]

It'S a black box theater pj.

[A]

Where tickling should never occur. I can feel the inappropriateness of it.

[B]

Yeah. And there's a referee and he's sort of just like making sure everyone's still alive. And they are. And then suddenly the tickler, he's the one on top. And spoiler alert, Mason Lewis wins the fight. ISKA bantamweight champion and new FCP bantamweight champion. Out of the red corner, Mason.

[A]

So he wins, but he wins by doing this thing. Seems to violate many codes of Ultimate Fighting Championship masculinity.

[B]

It's something that I had never seen before, and it sounds, based on the way that MMA responded to it, like most of them hadn't either. It was a taboo.

[A]

And so basically every week you look at the world of sports and try to find what the unusual thing is. You have seen lots of Unusual things happen in sports. When you saw this clip of this thing happening, like what happened inside your mind? Like what was your reaction? What questions were you asking yourself?

[B]

The number one question I asked myself was given that the Tickler just won this fight, why aren't more MMA fighters tickling?

[A]

Because it just seemed like an obvious tactical step forward.

[B]

It just seemed like a thing that worked. And I had never considered, never occurred to me that maybe the only thing you can do in some scenarios in which it seems like you're about to lose consciousness is to go the other way. Don't try and use brute force. Kind of use what feels like the opposite, which is a little, you know.

[A]

It'S like inventive silliness. Whimsy, Whimsy which, like whimsy, of all the places that whimsy might live, like a UFC like cage match, seems like not one of them.

[B]

It feels like a place that is militantly and culturally opposed to whimsy.

[A]

After the break, Pablo takes us into this place that is militantly and culturally opposed to whimsy and tries to figure out if these anti whimsy forces have overlooked how devastating tickling can be in a no holds barred cage match. We'll get to hear from everybody, the Tickler, the Tickly, and more. We'll also get an answer to another question I've actually wondered a lot about. How did mixed martial arts and the UFC become such a prominent part of American masculinity? After these ads, two liberal arts guys figure out what it means to be a man in Americ. This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Axle. You know that feeling when you finally sit down to book a trip, spend hours hunting for the best flights and hotels, and still aren't sure if you actually got a good deal? That stress of wondering if you overpaid or missed a better price? It's the worst. Axel is here to make sure you never feel like that again. You can Message Axel on WhatsApp to find deals, book travel and automatically get refunded when prices drop after you buy. Hotels average 50% less than major booking sites, and with automatic price monitoring, you get instant refunds and credits whenever prices fall. No work required, just text what you need and get options in seconds. Plus, Axel is 24 7, so you never miss a savings opportunity. With real time notifications keeping you informed, it's like having a personal travel agent in your pocket. On average, users save $400 per trip and 91% report less travel stress. Stop overpaying for travel go to helloaxel.com search for a free trial. Just 35 bucks a year. After that, most users save double that on their first booking alone. Sign up now and let Axel handle the deals and planning while you enjoy the trip. This episode is brought to you in part by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income is not easy. Bond markets are massive, murky. And let's be real, lots of firms throw a couple flashy funds your way and call it a day. But not Vanguard. Vanguard bonds are institutional quality. And that's not a marketing phrase, it's a promise. It means your clients get access to products built with the same care and rigor that institutions demand. Their lineup is huge. Over 80 bond funds managed by a 200 person global team of analysts, traders and sector specialists. Some firms love to shine the spotlight on one star manager. Vanguard takes the opposite approach. They believe the best active strategy should be built on teamwork. So clients benefit from the collective expertise of the entire group, not just one person's hunch. Most importantly, they focus on reliability and consistency, not risky bets to compete. Put your clients on a roller coaster. So if you're looking to give your clients consistent results year in and year out, go see the record for [e-mail] audio. That's vanguard.com audio all investing is subject to risk. Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distributor. Welcome back to the show. Tell me just like, for table's sakes, like, just tell me about UFC as an institution, like, for total neophytes to this, like, what is ufc? How did it start?

[B]

It stands for the Ultimate Fighting Championship. It is, again, something that has zero irony in it. Like, it's meant to be the most serious display of combat sports in the world. And specifically, it is mixed martial arts. So the brand, the league, it's almost like the NFL is the National Football League, but the sport is football. The Ultimate Fighting Championship is the league. Mixed martial arts is the sport.

[A]

And so like, you have before the UFC ever existed, you had boxing, where it's the combat sport, but people are restricted to just punching. If you have the ufc, where there's mixed martial arts, does that mean any form of martial arts and any combination of those forms you can bring to fight?

[B]

Oh, it's kind of like the ultimate. I mean, it is the ultimate way of answering the question, like, what if Batman could beat up Superman? What if Bruce Lee fought Muhammad Ali? It's this way of, like people from different disciplines proving who is, yeah, the best fighter among all of Them.

[A]

And so you're not just seeing the best fighter. It's like, I guess you're also seeing the best fighting style or the best combination of them.

[B]

It is a clash of many things, style being one of them. But the boxing parallel is a good one because boxing, of course, is like, self evidently violent. It's funny, we wring our hands around football in America because, of course, of CTE and neurological trauma. Boxing is consensual concussions. That's what boxing is. But mixed martial arts as a sport was regarded as so violent that it was illegal in many states in America for a really long time, like into the 90s. John McCain, late Senator John McCain, referred to it famously as human cockfighting.

[A]

And how did this start? Like, why did people, like, I understand why people had a problem with it. Like, I understand what John McCain meant when he said human cockfighting. Like, boxing feels like it's on the edge of what a lot of people will tolerate, and this is pushing that edge further out. But, like, why did the people who want it want it in the beginning?

[B]

Oh, it's because it's the ultimate tough guy contest. Yeah. So UFC 1 is the first of its kind. Long before there were dozens of rages in the cages, UFC 1 was born, and at the time, MMA was still outlawed in many states in America. Let me find out exactly what date it was. I want to get this right, but UFC 1, UFC 1 was on November 12, 1993, and really, it didn't get anything resembling, I would say, broad mainstream appeal or legitimacy until 2005, when a reality show called the Ultimate Fighter brought MMA into living rooms. On this season of the Ultimate Fighter.

[A]

Yeah, I'm on edge.

[B]

I'm not saying the nobody, and I'm cooking my food. Next question. It's reality television, this American Idol style competition in which aspiring UFC fighters have to do these challenges on television against these other aspirational professionals.

[A]

I think I can take Chris out.

[C]

But he's definitely gonna be a challenge.

[A]

And he is a tough fighter. It's your call, dude. If you want to do it, you know, if not, I'll step in there and I'll fight Alex.

[B]

The end of the show ends with someone getting awarded a contract to actually compete in the UFC.

[A]

You do win the six figure contract with the UFC.

[B]

You are the ultimate fighter in the 185 pound division.

[A]

And so that's how it comes hijacks into mainstream culture. And what is the, like, the audience that's showing up for this? Like, I remember people watching clips of UFC fights on YouTube while it was still relatively underground. And it was just like a very. Like, it just seemed like for teenage boys, it's like, here is unrestrained, like, totally, like, Edge of Civilization masculinity just unleashed. Like, what's your understanding of. Beyond the four people I remember from the Pennsylvania suburbs, the audience that's showing up, what is the culture that they're celebrating? What are they feeling when they're watching these matches?

[B]

There is a bit of. Again, to use another Internet reference, there's a bit of Faces of Death in this, where it's like, I don't know if we should be watching this.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We're sort of getting these clips passed around in which someone gets an elbow to the eyeball, and you're like, oh, this is going to be a thing. I remember for a long time. Look, a key part of MMA versus boxing, and not to be so simplistic about it, is that you can use your legs.

[A]

And why is that a big deal?

[B]

Because in boxing, you can only use your arms.

[A]

But why is that? Why does it matter? Because now you can kick and, like.

[B]

And you can grapple and you can get on the ground, and you can put people into these, like, arm leg locks, like, these really painful, torturous positions that are illegal in boxing. I mean, flatly illegal. They're the things that make it so dangerous. Like, there are clips of UFC fights in which one guy leg kicks another guy, and the guy who does the kicking, his leg snaps off and begins to dangle inside the packaging of his skin. And so you just see breakages of bone.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

It's. I mean, there are highlight reels of stuff like this, right? Yeah. There are a lot of sports that basically dilute their products when it comes to. We're here for the theater, the performance, the litigation of toughness, where it's like, we all want the fights, but it's sort of, like, contained in this larger politeness. Mixed martial arts is like the uncut Colombian cocaine of just, like, we know what you're here for. And it became extraordinarily popular.

[A]

And were you watching this as it was coming up? Like, what's your relationship to ufc?

[B]

So I've covered boxing for a really long time. I grew up a fan of boxing, and that felt like enough in terms of, like, sating my personal blood thirst.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As a sports fan again, I was born in 85. I grew up in an era in which this all felt kind of gross. But I do remember distinctly I was a young reporter at Sports Illustrated, My second year on the job, I got this email. This was 2008, and it was inviting me to cover an MMA fight. And I really didn't have any interest until I looked closer at the email. And this event, a Strike Force, a different MMA promotion, a different sort of competitor, ufc. This event was gonna be held at the Playboy Mansion. And so I did what any young reporter would do, which is I said, I would like one credential, please. And I. I don't even remember if I told my bosses I was doing this. I was just like, yes, I will cover this. And then paid for my own way to Los Angeles and showed up and. What?

[A]

Sorry. And it was at the Playboy Mansion.

[B]

So the other thing about mixed martial arts is that it's an. It takes place in this octagon. It's called the octagon. Okay. And there's a mat at the bottom, and it's not that big. So, like, unlike a football field or a basketball court, you can sort of.

[A]

Like, put the octagon wherever.

[B]

Absolutely. And the Playboy Mansion has a yard.

[A]

And you can put an octagon in.

[B]

The yard, and they put that octagon right in the middle of that yard.

[A]

Good evening to you, ladies and gentlemen.

[B]

And welcome to the world famous Playboy.

[A]

Mansion in Beverly Hills, California for Strike Force at the Mansion 2. A big night of mixed martial arts.

[B]

And in the sort of, like, back part of the estate, you could hear they have, like, a zoo back there. Like a literal zoo.

[A]

Okay. I hear the Playboy Mansion is famous for its peacocks. I found one right here.

[B]

Let's go see if we can get one. It kind of felt like an unlocked part of the map of, like, Grand Theft Auto, honestly, because it's just, like.

[A]

So much spectacle in one place, and.

[B]

It was over the top, and you were invited, like, take a tour of the grounds, took some pictures in the grotta. Is that what it's called?

[A]

Grotto.

[B]

Grotto, yeah. We just took some pictures in there.

[A]

I'm really excited to be here.

[B]

Like, there's the grotto, you know, you're wandering through again. In my mind, Hugh Hefner was just, like, wandering around in his smoking jacket. I don't know if I hallucinated that, admittedly, but I'm pretty sure he was there. It was his house after all. Various Playboy bunnies were, like, you know, they were hosting the assembled MMA press and traveling parties for all the fighters. But this is what MMA was like in 2008. They were, like, desperate for someone like me who had zero experience covering it and just came out of nowhere. They were like cold emailing people like, will you cover this thing? It's at the Playboy Mansion. And I was like, you had me at the second to last word, right?

[A]

How does it grow from. Like you said, one big inflection point is the reality show Ultimate Fighter. Like, how does it grow from there?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, by the we're talking about the 2010s now. It truly became one of the fastest growing sports in the United States. It became popular, and so states all around the country started legalizing it. And simultaneously it was also global. Like Brazil. Fight back up.

[A]

Fight back up.

[B]

Sh Sh is Brazil is also a cradle of mixed martial arts. Brazilian Jiu jitsu happens to be one of the dominant forms, one of dominant styles that won the marketplace of beating the out of each other. Suddenly, before you realized it, by 2015, you look up and suddenly the UFC and MMA is in lots of the respectable places that had truly said, you're not allowed here anymore. And pay per view fees, broadcasting rights, merch, all of this stuff. People realize that, oh, you can make actual money in this.

[A]

So the UFC creates a national market for televised mixed martial arts, combat. And later, as more and more entrants join the space, the sport gets popular enough to move from the fringes of American culture towards its center. And somehow it gets pretty popular while maintaining this whiff of taboo to it. Like part of the pleasure of watching it is that it feels like you're not supposed to. There is one more vector taking MMA mainstream though. A popular podcast that in its early episodes mostly talked to male comedians and MMA fighters. The Joe Rogan experience. Because before Joe Rogan was even a podcaster, he was already a prominent figure in the then niche world of mixed martial arts. Truly is an honor to welcome back to the broadcast team here in the Ultimate Fighting Championship the host of NBC's Fear Factor, Joe Rogan, our old sideline guy interviewing the fighters years ago. Rogan in the clip looks like a different person. He's younger, with a full head of hair, much less beefy. Perhaps at the very beginning of his transition from LA stand up and sitcom actor to eccentric philosopher jock.

[B]

I'm a huge fan of ultimate fighting, all mixed martial arts, literally. I don't care about other sports. Like the Lakers won their third championship the other day. I couldn't care less if they made basketball illegal.

[C]

It wouldn't even bother me.

[B]

Joe Rogan is the announcer during the rise of all of this. He is the face you could argue of mixed Martial arts.

[A]

He's right.

[B]

The Joe Rogan Experience started as an MMA podcast, and we're live.

[C]

So literally this morning I had this thought. I thought about it a bit yesterday, and this morning I thought of it. I was like, why don't you just do it? I said, I need to do, like, some sort of an MMA recap show. Cause there's always so much shit that's happening.

[B]

And I guess as a shorthand heuristic, everything Joe Rogan is. The multitudes he contains. Idiot. But also, at times, like, truly a master of subject matter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Obscure and otherwise. Someone who can read books to completion and enjoy them and also have these characters on who are absurd, if not outright problematic in meaningful ways. All of that is under the tent of mixed martial arts.

[A]

Pablo had promised us a liberal arts view of sports, and I think we'd arrived at it just to stay in that view for a second. I think Joe Rogan confounds liberal arts types because he represents a version of masculinity that's fairly alien to us. To be a good man right now can often feel like an unwinnable game. So it's an anxious identity. And the solution most liberal arts men gravitate toward is to just talk about other men a lot. How they're bad, toxic, lonely. It's an identity you could understand many men not particularly enjoying. And Joe Rogan offers men a different path. He says that actually it's very good to be a man and that he can help you be even better at it. He'll tell you what exercises to do.

[C]

Everything from Nordic curls. Do you do those? Do you do Nordic curls?

[D]

I should. I should do more than I do.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Leg curls.

[A]

He'll tell you what to put in your body.

[C]

Did you incorporate peptides in your recovery?

[D]

I didn't.

[C]

Do you hate healing?

[D]

Do I hate healing? No.

[C]

I didn't use peptides.

[A]

And Joe Rogan believes that men should fight, men should spar.

[C]

There's no better stress reliever in the world than jiu jitsu or martial arts. There's no better you leave there. You're the kindest person in the world. You just, like, heal all of your aggressions out of your system, and it's a phenomenal stress.

[A]

This particular Rogan conversation is from earlier this year with Mark Zuckerberg, who'd shown up to talk about meta, but also about combat.

[C]

Regardless of what you're going through day to day with Facebook and Meta and all. All the different projects you have going on, it's not as hard as Someone trying to choke you unconscious, it's not as acute.

[D]

I think it's like sometimes you have someone trying to choke you unconscious slowly over a multi month, multi year period. And that's business, right? But no, I think that sometimes in business, the cycle time is so long that it is very refreshing to just have a feedback loop that's like, oh, I had my hand down, so I got punched in the face. It's like that's.

[B]

This is a sport again, that has like a new gentlemanly sort of air to it, even if it is really appealing to those nerds, those gentlemen, on the basis of being able to confer the hyper masculinity.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That they seek. Yeah.

[A]

I'm trying to decide if, like, I have questions and thoughts about this, but maybe they're. It's just there's a. I'm so. I feel like I spent the first half of my life feeling so like all the problems that we culturally have with masculinity, I feel like I discovered for myself on my own, getting beat up by men for, you know, 20 years. And also now in this moment where, like, American culture doesn't know what to do with masculinity other than sort of label it as troubled and bad. But, like, men have to find a version of being a man that works for them. As goofy as tech CEO, grappling with people is, I have sympathy for, well, what am I supposed to do? Like, what am I supposed to do? And like, this feels good. I don't know. I have sympathy for it.

[B]

Oh, by the way, like, it's sports. Like, the whole thesis of sports is you're going to enter this ecosystem in which your ego's on the line, in which you need to work out to be good at it, in which you need to sort of be ascetic in some ways that will cost you. In other words, areas of your life, you got to really devote yourself to it. But the rewards are, I think, I dare say, one of the healthier ways to perform the theater of gender. Yeah. Like, I hope that rather than, I don't know, tilting an election, the next tech CEO just learns Brazilian jiu jitsu. I'm totally good with that.

[A]

Of course, if this theory of the octagon is right, that male aggression might need cont. Socially acceptable places to express itself. This leads us back to the question of the week. What happens when you take that sacred space and introduce to it an unmanly bout of foot tickling? After these ads, we return to our scandal. This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by mubi, a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs. Every film on MUB is hand selected so you can explore the very best of cinema streaming anytime, anywhere. And right now, to mark the 35th anniversary of Twin Peaks, you can stream the complete original series from 1990 and 1991 created by Mark Frost and David lynch, plus Twin Peaks, a limited event series from 2017 available for the first time on MUBI. It is so good and it is so scary. Who killed Laura Palmer? That question was shook television history. Twin Peaks rewrote the rules of TV. Twin Peaks remains both wonderful and strange 35 years later. From the visionary minds of Mark Frost and David lynch, this is a chance to revisit or discover the show that influenced everything from true detective to severance. To stream the best of cinema, you can try Mubi free for 30 [e-mail] search engine that's M U B I.com search engine for a whole month of great cinema. Free. This episode is brought to you in part by Vuori A New Perspective on Performance Apparel Perfect if you're sick and tired of traditional old workout gear, Vuori clothes are incredibly versatile and comfortable. Perfect for whatever your day brings. They're designed to look great beyond the gym, whether you're running errands, heading to the office or meeting up with your friends. One specific Vuori item I would recommend is the core short. This is a short that started it all for Vuori. It is one short for every sport you can do for whatever sports you play. It's ideal for fitness, running and training, but also genuinely stylish and comfortable enough to just wear all day. Vuori is an investment in your happiness for search engine listeners. They're offering 20% off your free first purchase. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on The Planet at viori.com PJSearch that's V U-O-R-I.com PJSearch exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but enjoy free shipping on any US orders over 75 bucks and free returns. Go to vuori.com pjsearch and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. This episode is brought to you by Marshalls, where you never have to compromise between quality and price. The buyers of Marshalls hustle hard working to bring you great deals on brand name and designer pieces because Marshalls believes everyone deserves access to the good stuff. Visit a Marshalls store near you or shop [e-mail]. so to go to the scandal that took place in this octagon, like, just give me again, what is the date this transpires? Who's the Tickler? Who's the Tickly?

[B]

Yes. So we're returning to April 2024. The Tickler is named Mason Lewis. The Tickle e remains Tim Fargo. And as always, we are talking about Rage in the cage 24.

[A]

And so rage in the cage 24 provokes this scandal. Why, for the just normal UFC viewer, why were they offended by the diddly diddly Tickly Littlefoot?

[B]

Because this question was one that immediately became thorny to sort of, like, disentangle, because fundamentally, there is the whole thing of this being anti masculine. It feels like you've discovered sort of like a hack in a video game where it's like, if it worked, you shouldn't have done it because this isn't, like, honorable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I think the actual real opposition to it was not that this works too well. It's that, how dare you suggest that this Tickle is the reason why he won. There was something almost more insulting about the fact that you think that these two guys who were putting their lives on the line in this way, you think that this was settled because of the tickle? Like, clearly, the people who made such a big deal of it, we were told they were the ones. Those people were the ones who were just uneducated about how MMA really works.

[A]

Oh, so it's not. So the online fandom for MMA is angry, but they're not angry at the thing I would have assumed. They're not angry necessarily that a tickle transpired. It's sort of like they're angry at how outsiders are understanding this story. Like, the fact that I'm here is bad.

[B]

I was gonna say the fact that I'm sitting in this studio with you, I feel like, is a concern for them because there's a bit of a, you know, there's like a samurai code around this.

[A]

And so you get curious about this as you're watching the reaction to this grow. Is it like, is it immediate that people are upset, or is it, like, as it gets outside attention, people are getting upset?

[B]

It's really. When we started reporting this, oh, you.

[A]

Were making people upset.

[B]

Yeah. So me and Dave Fleming, who's my friend and correspondent on this episode, who was himself a D1 college wrestler, the thing that Flem Discovered as we were both just sort of like asking around, like media friends, was that, like, they didn't want to participate in this story because it felt like it was insulting and demeaning to this thing they loved, which had fought, as you now understand, this long campaign for a certain respectability, a certain integrity that was not being jeopardized here because it was too violent. Ironically, given the long arc of the mainstreaming of the sport, it was a threat because it was reducing it to something of a punchline, like the lack of violence in this one move. The tickle was the thing that threatened. It seemed to us to tug at these threads that might unravel more than a lot of defenders of the sport wanted to entertain.

[A]

So the problem isn't that you're making the sport look ultraviolent. That's like the fun of the sport. The problem is that you're making it look goofy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And their argument is a tickle happened in this match, but the tickle wasn't as decisive as you, the sort of snickering outsider want it to have been.

[B]

So can I introduce the character of Big John at this point, please? So there's a guy whose name is Big John, and Flem interviewed him over Zoom. So you are gonna hear from Flem a bunch in the tape.

[A]

I know who you are, but will you introduce yourself just for our recording and sort of just give a little bit of your background for our audience that might not know.

[E]

My name is John McCarthy. If you're going to go to MMA, they call me Big John McCarthy, but.

[B]

And he is basically the number one rules authority in mixed martial arts.

[E]

At the very beginning at UFC 1, I was kind of part of the show. I was holding on to stuff, being a bodyguard. Ended up being asked to be the referee for UFC 2 and continued on for a little over 25 year career. And it was a lot of fun.

[B]

So he's been there basically from the very start. And if you want to envision Big John, just envision Steven Seagal.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And you're close enough. Okay. The guy has himself like a highlight reel of him, like in the Octagon, basically being like a third fighter there to enforce the rules upon these ostensible maniacs.

[A]

So he's like the institutional knowledge of justice in the sport.

[B]

He is the guy who actually, literally helped write the rule book of mma.

[A]

And what was your expectation going in like, of what you were gonna find talking to someone like him about this?

[B]

I thought that Big John would be less dismissive of the angle of Our reporting. Every time we went to Big John and pushed him on whether this worked and why shouldn't more people be doing this, he basically found any excuse to diminish the premise.

[E]

The mind starts to work in a different way. And that's why I say tickling doesn't work to get you out of something while someone is creating pain.

[A]

So he's just like, you guys are reporters looking for a funny story. Tickling transpired, but again, not pivotal.

[B]

And also, even if it was in any way impactful, it would have been on the level of, okay, this was kind of, like, surprising. Yeah, because it doesn't really happen, but then that would be the ceiling of its effectiveness. And Big John also communicated to us that because of this Mason Lewis, Tim Fargo thing, which he knew about immediately, as soon as we started asking about tickling, he was like, you're talking about Mason Lewis and Tim Fargo?

[E]

Like, yeah, I know the exact fight that you're talking about. Because I had a lot of people sit there and say, is this legal? Yeah, it's legal. Absolutely legal. Is that why the person got out? No, it's not why the person got out.

[B]

Lots of people had, apparently online commented enough about this that he was also exhausted.

[A]

Oh, he's just tired of talking about it.

[B]

He's like, these fucking idiots thinking that tickling is going to be the next great move in the toughest sport in the world.

[E]

It's never truly worked in any realm that I've ever seen. I've seen guys try it, trying to be funny. I've never seen tickling ever stop anything in a fight.

[B]

This is the guy who inscribed on, effectively, stone tablets what is and is not allowed in mma. And he just was unconcerned in the way that we were concerned about, like, isn't this thing important? This thing that we just saw? Isn't that kind of fascinating? And he just wanted to make it very clear that we were wrong.

[A]

So Big John tells you to fuck off. Would you try to talk to, like, the official, like, the UFC league? Like, do they have anything to say?

[B]

Well, the rules of UFC are helpfully published on their website, and as Big John confirmed, it's legal. You can tickle if you want. It's just that, why would you want to.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Why would you want to risk? I mean, this was Big John's argument. If you tickle me, if you want.

[E]

To tickle me while I'm punching the shit out of you in the face, go ahead and try. But again, be careful when you do it, because if you're doing it while someone can punch you in the face. It's probably going to happen.

[B]

So his thing was like, we don't need to ban tickling. It's just not even worthy of that level of constitutional amendment.

[A]

I see his point. Like, I can see the argument. So then this sort of. Because you were not willing to abandon your premise.

[B]

Correct. You wanted to talk to you saw the video.

[A]

It does feel. You do watch the fight change. Like, I'm sorry, I'm not an expert, but I see a man in a ThighMaster lock with no way out. I see his little fingies come out. I see him tickle, and I see the fight change. So I feel like, objectively, something transpired.

[B]

Something transpired. And we can debate how big an impact it was, but that is enough for me to not take Big John as the final authority. It was like, let's continue to interrogate this.

[A]

And you know that Big John has a stake in the sport not being a goofy laughingstock.

[B]

Can I tell you, I'm a little worried about how much I'm talking shit about Big John.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Because he is big and he's very online like. Big John, if you're a search engine listener as well, just know that all of this comes from a place of genuine journalistic inquiry. And I respect you and your works.

[A]

Established for the record. We'll keep it in. Where do you go next? I assume you want to talk to both the Tickler and the Tickly. Although I could imagine either one having reasons for not wanting to talk.

[B]

Well, first we gotta get to the Tickler.

[A]

And so did you feel at all worried that the Tickler would not want to talk to you?

[B]

I mean, I cannot. I cannot stress how annoying it became that we loved the story and the reporting and we pride ourselves on getting to the bottom of things. And the Tickler was ghosting us. Yeah, we made contact once, and from then on, there was no response. I texted him multiple times. We emailed him, we called him. Dave Fleming did the same. Tried just the front door. We tried talking to people that he trained with. We tried talking to people who were associated with him. In various record searches that we found, it became a worry that we had that he was avoiding us because he thought that what he had done was shameful. Or.

[A]

I could imagine. Just when there's a lot of heat kicked up online, you don't want to step out in front of it. Like, even if he thought it was okay, now it's like a weird, loose thing that could blow back on him if you guys poke at it.

[B]

And perhaps whether or not he knows Big John personally, perhaps he was of the opinion, which would have been fair, that this isn't the best brand to have.

[A]

The Tickler.

[B]

The Tickler isn't exactly. I mean, yeah, it's like you've got.

[A]

Like the most badass, like, Brazilian jiu jitsu guy, like the person you can do like this, and then you got the guy that you gotta keep your little feetsies away from him.

[B]

Can I give you some MMA nicknames?

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

The Korean Zombie Rampage. The Axe Murderer, Shogun. The Iceman. Crow Cop. Yeah.

[A]

All these people sound like they broke out of Arkham Asylum. And then you got coochie Gucci goo.

[B]

Yeah. The Natural Born Killer. And the Tickler not exactly peers in this way, but.

[A]

So do you get him?

[B]

Oh, we got him.

[A]

So it's like four hours before his bout, but the Tickler is outside the Windom right now warming up or, I don't know, just getting loose. I don't see any Tickle Tickle going on, but you never know.

[B]

All right, we got him because we sent Dave Fleming to perhaps the most opposite place in the world, to the Playboy Mansion.

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Thunder Ballroom dome.

[B]

And by that, I mean we sent him to the ballroom of the Wyndham Hotel in downtown Rochester, New York.

[A]

Why? Why was that the location to send him to?

[B]

Because it turns out that we waited long enough that the Tickler Mason Lewis was actually going to fight.

[A]

Oh, he stands at 5 foot 7.

[B]

Official weight of 135 pounds. He is Mason.

[A]

And did he talk to Dave?

[B]

After eight hours of amateur MMA fighting in which this carpeted hotel ballroom had an octagon placed atop it. And just the visuals on this, it's just like, you know, there's the local dispensary, has tables out in the hallway. The carpet is immediately stained with blood. It smells like hot dogs. And it's unclear if it's the hot dogs or the people.

[E]

Yes.

[B]

In the octagon. Yeah. And then.

[F]

All right, nice to meet you.

[A]

I'm Dave Fleming.

[F]

Nice to meet you.

[B]

Dave from Pablo Show.

[A]

Pablo Show.

[B]

Dave Fleming waits around long enough such that he can directly approach the Tickler. Mason Lewis, can you give us five.

[A]

Minutes just to talk?

[F]

I give five minutes.

[A]

Are you done with your family? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[F]

Guys, give me five minutes. Give me five minutes.

[B]

Okay, awesome.

[A]

Let's just go over here.

[B]

Yep, you got it. Mason Lewis is in person, so baby faced and young looking, like he's actually an amateur Fighter. He was, like, playing up a level at rage in the cage. 24.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And he sat down and was shockingly, shockingly open to discussing anything we wanted when it came to his nickname that we had imposed.

[A]

And what did he have to say for himself?

[B]

So the first thing about the Tickler Mason Lewis is that he's very intentional. And I don't even mean that in terms of his MMA strategy. I mean that in terms of the fact that he like journals, really. He's. He's thoughtful.

[F]

I'm very conscious in the cage. A lot of people just disassociate, and they leave almost their mind. I want to say I do a lot of meditation. I do at least an hour of meditation a day, and I feel like that allows me to be conscious in every moment of my life, truly.

[B]

And so the reason he said that he wasn't getting back to us was because he doesn't really use his phone that much.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

He's like one of those guys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who, like, is big into journaling and not being on social media and not even really texting, and so, whatever. We took that as a kind letdown. But nonetheless, he provided his credibility on the matter by just, like, openly talking about this. I don't know.

[F]

I don't know why I did it. It was just. It was just like, you know what? Screw it. I'm just going to tickle to get out of this. You know, we're in a weird position. If he can let go of this from a tickle, then so be it.

[A]

And I gotta say.

[B]

And the thing we asked him was a, did he think that this worked?

[A]

And so that thing that the tickling, like, was that the difference?

[B]

Yeah, that could have been. Yeah.

[F]

You know, it could have been the difference, Baker.

[B]

Yeah.

[F]

And I knew people are ticklish.

[A]

People let go.

[F]

So I figured if I tickled his foot, he might let go. So that's just. That's just what I did.

[B]

But. And the answer, of course, was yes. We followed up with would you tickle again? Would he tickle again? And there was no hesitation. 100%. Okay.

[F]

That's what it takes. That's what it takes.

[B]

Yeah. Of course he would.

[A]

Because it worked.

[B]

Because it worked.

[A]

And did he have a view about the reaction to the thing that he'd done?

[B]

He was, I think, a bit mystified as to how big a deal it was, because to him, it was a function of his hyper competitiveness.

[A]

So he didn't feel like he was breaking the rules. He didn't feel like he was swerving too far into taboo. From his point of view, a thoughtful, meditative phone avoiding thinking. Man's brawler. Your job is to win. Your job is to win within a very short set of rules. And he thought of something nobody had thought of before, and so, of course he was gonna do it.

[B]

And also, it turns out that Mason Lewis is the youngest child of six siblings. Oh.

[A]

So he was probably tickled quite a bit.

[B]

He became the machine he raged against. Wow.

[A]

You can use the master's tools.

[B]

Well, the other thing that he says, he's like. You know, we ask him, like, so given that you're the youngest of six, what would happen if someone tickled you and he was like, oh, I'd be screwed.

[A]

He would just have no defense.

[B]

He would have no defense.

[A]

I mean, I will say, like, one of the problems that I feel like nobody's pointing out in the tickling debate is that people's ticklishness is something that I think you're born with and can't change. Like, I. So there's people. I'm basically immune to tickling. Like, maybe at the edges, if you're lucky, but I'm pretty hard to tickle. But there's people who are just very ticklish and. Yeah, but I guess that's true of, like, everything in sports. People are different. Heights, people are different. It's just part of it.

[B]

The genetic lottery has many, many forms.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There is height, there is strength, there is your hormone level, and there is ticklishness. And it sounds. What I'm finding out is that, P.J. you have a competitive edge in the world of the octagon. I'll be the octagon.

[A]

So he's unrepentant. He doesn't care what the raging online commentariat thinks about what he's done. He believes his way is the way. What about the tickled person? You guys talk to him.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Tickly Tim Fargo. He wants a rematch.

[G]

My coach wants me to fight him again. He wants me to fight him so bad.

[B]

He was so respectful of Mason Lewis and had been, of course, familiar with all of the jokes. Lots of people had been asking him about this, too. The Internet was unkind to the tickly.

[A]

They were unkind to the tickly because.

[B]

He lost to the tickler.

[A]

And they think that if they were in the octagon, they never would have flinched at a tickle.

[B]

Well, I think it's also just, like, embarrassing, right?

[A]

It's like, you go to be the most masculine man and somebody gives you the equivalent of a wedgie.

[B]

And he was on the way to absolutely dominating that fight. And so you could argue that he kind of choked. But Tim Fargo the Tik Lee didn't see it that way.

[A]

He just saw it as he lost a match.

[B]

He saw it as he lost a match to an upcoming young fighter who did a thing that he was surprised to encounter.

[G]

I just think no one really thinks of it because there's so many other techniques from most positions that we're always practicing, and no one. No one really teaches that. So it kind of took a second, and then I realized what he was doing. But it kind of just got me, like, mentally out of it a little bit more than, like, actually making me want to let go, because then you're just thinking, like, this guy's tickling me in a fight. He just kind of gets you out.

[B]

He testified to its effectiveness, that it did, in fact, work on him, and it worked on him so well that he basically said, if we get back in the Octagon, and we did get both of them to agree to want to fight each other again in this rematch, he would absolutely be willing to tickle if I had to.

[G]

If there was nothing else left, if I could get him in a tickling position, then I would.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

I mean, he was radicalized.

[A]

So you could imagine a future where the two of them are squaring off and amongst the, like, punches and the kick and the grind, they would just be out there with their little tickling claws, like, trying to tickle each other.

[B]

I mean, I'd pay for that.

[A]

I would totally pay for that. That would be my first UFC match.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I would definitely go to Ultimate Tickling Championship. It just feels like a lot of ingredients are being put into a soup in a very unusual way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so do you think that, like, part of the reason there's a push to not recognize tickling as effective is just because, like, there's all sorts of behaviors that we recognize work, but which we think are bad for the larger system that they're in? Yeah, people can do this, and they'll succeed, but we don't want people to do this, and so we'll try to find ways to discourage it? And do you think that that is what tickling is in this context? Like, a useful tool, that maybe for the league is bad for it to exist, but it exists and it works?

[B]

That is my most core suspicion, that they know. They have a sense that this would work, and they're afraid if lots of people start doing it, and the product would fundamentally, perhaps change as a result. Sports is full of stories like this, by the way. Sports is full of stories in which there are these hacks that get more points, right? I'm not exactly arguing that tickling is the equivalent of something that's so effective that it would completely tilt the competitive landscape of this sport, but I do think that there might be yet another incredibly tense climactic moment at which someone is about to lose consciousness, and their ego and their humiliation is absolutely on the line. And the thing they think of is the thing that Mason Lewis very intentionally decided to do. And at a certain point, I think it's entirely possible that the highlight reel, the viral clip of that moment, may not be exactly what the founding fathers of MMA had envisioned.

[A]

It makes me so happy to know that. It makes me so happy to know that tickling is something that they don't yet have, a vaccine for.

[B]

Rogan. What do you think about that, huh?

[A]

Pablo, thank you.

[B]

Thanks, pj.

[A]

Pablo Torre. His excellent show is called Pablo Torre Finds out. You can go there to see some of the videos we referenced in this story and listen to their other stories. One of our staff favorites is Pablo's interview with director Ezra Edelman about his Prince documentary that was squashed by Netflix. It's so good. Go check it out and please tell them we sent you. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey. It was created by me, PJ Vogt and Shruti Pinamaneni. Garrett Graham is our senior producer. Additional production support and fact checking by Kim Kubol. Theme, original composition and mixing by Armin Bazarian. Our executive producer is Leah Rees Dennis. And thanks to the rest of the team at Odyssey, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gaynor, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kirk Courtney and Hilary Schopf. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at uta. If you'd like to support our show and get ad free episodes, zero reruns and even extra interviews, please consider signing up for Incognito Mode. You can join Incognito Mode at Search Engine Chat. So follow and listen to Search Engine wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We'll see you in two weeks.

[B]

And Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[A]

Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[B]

Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty, Liberty Liberty Savings.

[A]

Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.