The Stupid Little Yogurt Question

Summary

Podcast Summary: Search Engine – "The Stupid Little Yogurt Question"

Introduction

In the June 6, 2025 episode of Search Engine, hosted by PJ Vogt, the narrative delves into a seemingly trivial yet intriguing question posed by a high school English teacher. Titled "The Stupid Little Yogurt Question," this episode explores themes of curiosity, skepticism, and the complexities of sustainability in modern consumerism through the lens of teenage investigators.

The Yogurt Question

The story begins with Garrett Graham recounting a tweet from David Freeman, an English teacher at Lyce Francais de New York, who introduces his class to a peculiar research question: "Why is La Fermière Yogurt the only yogurt in my everyday life that comes in a clay pot?" (04:13). La Fermière, a premium French yogurt brand, distinguishes itself by packaging its product in colorful terracotta pots instead of the conventional plastic containers. This question serves as the catalyst for an investigative project aimed at fostering disciplined curiosity among students.

Classroom Dynamics

David Freeman leads his class, Knowledge of the World, in exploring both big and small questions to develop research projects. However, his choice of the yogurt packaging question initially meets with confusion and mild frustration from students Romy and Anouk. Romy expresses her disinterest, stating, "It's hard when teachers ask you to research something you're not interested in." (20:10). Anouk shares a similar sentiment, feeling compelled to spend valuable time on a topic they don't care about. Despite their reluctance, Freeman emphasizes the importance of investigating seemingly insignificant questions to hone their research skills.

The Investigation Process

Garrett and Shruti Pinnamaneni decide to delve deeper into Freeman's investigation. They visit Lyce Francais de New York, where they meet Freeman and observe his dramatic introduction of the yogurt pot as a teaching tool (06:14). Initially, Romy and Anouk appear disengaged, viewing the yogurt question as another mundane assignment. However, as the investigation progresses, their skepticism towards corporate sustainability claims begins to surface.

Interviews and Findings

The investigation takes Garrett and Shruti to the school's cafeteria to interview the cafeteria head, Marcus, who confirms that La Fermière is popular among the faculty but not as much with students who prefer typical snacks like cookies and chips (15:33). Seeking more insight, they visit a local café, Chez Les Frenchies, where the aroma of France seems to inspire curiosity.

Their critical turning point occurs when Romy and Anouk explore La Fermière's website and find the company's sustainability claims vague and unconvincing (31:06). They perceive the packaging claims as mere marketing tactics rather than genuine environmental efforts. Determined to uncover the truth, the team contacts Charlotte Marchand, the Head of Sales and Marketing at La Fermière (37:24). During the interview, Charlotte highlights the use of terracotta pots as a sustainable packaging choice, emphasizing the material's natural and reusable properties (37:36). However, Romy and Anouk remain skeptical, feeling that the company's explanations lack depth and transparency (39:12).

To gain a more objective perspective, Garrett and the students consult Shelley Miller, a professor of Environmental Sustainability at the University of Michigan, who introduces the concept of life cycle analysis (46:58). Miller explains that while plastics have a notorious environmental reputation due to their visible impact, materials like terracotta may have hidden environmental costs, such as higher carbon emissions from transportation and production energy (49:28). This nuanced understanding challenges the initial assumption that terracotta is inherently more sustainable than plastic.

Conclusions and Reflections

Through their investigation, Romy and Anouk conclude that La Fermière's packaging choices are driven more by marketing strategies than genuine sustainability efforts. They recognize the importance of looking beyond surface-level claims to understand the true environmental impact of consumer products. Garrett reflects on how this project transformed from investigating a "stupid little yogurt question" into a profound exploration of ethical consumerism and corporate responsibility (57:22).

Anouk articulates a critical insight: "If a brand says they're doing something for the environment, it's usually for profit." (35:28). Romy adds, "Even makeup brands have to claim they're protecting the planet." (43:07), highlighting a widespread trend of superficial sustainability claims across various industries.

Graduation and Final Thoughts

As the school year concludes, Romy prepares to attend the Lund School of Economics, and Anouk heads to a French university. In their final meeting, Garrett provides them with La Fermière yogurt for a taste test, ironically encapsulating their journey from skepticism to reluctant appreciation. Anouk remarks, "I wish I was spending this time figuring out what I want to spend it about." (27:37), reflecting on the personal growth experienced through the investigation.

Closing

"The Stupid Little Yogurt Question" serves as a compelling narrative that underscores the value of critical thinking and the importance of questioning corporate narratives. Through the collaborative efforts of a curious teacher, skeptical students, and investigative producers, the episode sheds light on the intricate balance between marketing, sustainability, and genuine environmental responsibility.

Notable Quotes:

• Garrett Graham [04:13]: "Why is La Fermière Yogurt the only yogurt in my everyday life that comes in a clay pot?"
• Romy [20:10]: "It's hard when teachers ask you to research something you're not interested in."
• Anouk [35:28]: "If a brand says they're doing something for the environment, it's usually for profit."
• Shelley Miller [47:18]: "Things like this are a great way of starting to think about sustainability questions and analysis."
• Anouk [27:37]: "I wish I was spending this time figuring out what I want to spend it about."

This episode masterfully intertwines educational themes with real-world applications, presenting listeners with a thought-provoking exploration of how even the most mundane questions can lead to significant insights.

Transcript

[PJ Vogt]

This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by the California association of Realtors. Buying a home in California right now can feel like a lot. The market is competitive, the paperwork is complex, and the process, it can be overwhelming. Enter your Realtor, the ultimate teacher guide, coach, advisor, cheerleader, guru of all things home. A trusted expert who knows California real estate inside and out. And is there, every step of the way, worried about what you can afford, how to make an offer, what goes into escrow, final inspections, closings? Let your Realtor handle the process, the paperwork and the pressure so you can focus on what really matters, picturing yourself in the place you'll call home. Everything's easier with a Realtor by your side. Don't let what you don't know stop you from starting your next chapter. Find your [e-mail].

[Garrett Graham]

SA.

[PJ Vogt]

I don't miss much about being a teenager, but one thing I do sometimes miss is just how fun it was to be a teenage zealot. The world at the turn of the millennium seemed to my eyes, so deserving of skepticism. The war on terror? Bullshit. The oil companies, they were bad. My suburb, maybe worse than both of them. George W. Bush was obviously the worst president America was ever going to have, assuming it even survived him. I think I thought then that most of the adults I knew had just been compromised somehow. It almost felt like maybe adulthood itself corrupted you. Something about corporate jobs or paying taxes, or maybe an actual invisible toxin in the suburban air muddied your vision so you lost the X ray. Teenage clarity me and my friends all had. That's how I saw it then. Today, in theory, I think both sides have a piece of the truth. The young and the not so young. But when I meet actual teenagers, I will admit I'm kind of astounded by their withering skepticism, their oracular pronouncements about what's bullshit and what's cringe. Was I really like this? Is it possible they see me as out of touch? Corny. But I think that's why every year I become a little more astonished by high school teachers. These people who stand up in front of a somewhat hostile audience day after day and just try to convince them to care about whatever the evolving adult agenda is. This week, reporter Garrett Graham has a story from one of those classrooms about a teacher who had a question and who had the audacity to try to make his students curious about its answer. Garrett was there to watch, to see if such a thing could ever really happen.

[Garrett Graham]

Okay. Shall we? Mm.

[PJ Vogt]

Where do you want to start the story?

[Garrett Graham]

So I'm gonna start this story almost two years ago, actually, October 2023. I don't know if you remember this, but you get a tweet from a guy named David.

[PJ Vogt]

And what was David saying?

[Garrett Graham]

I'm just gonna get you to read that tweet. I'm gonna put it in your slack.

[PJ Vogt]

All right? Sorry. I have a notification from Domino's Pizza saying I have 80 Domino's points, a currency. I never wanted to do that.

[Garrett Graham]

You live in New York and regularly order Domino's. It's.

[PJ Vogt]

It's different. Okay. This is from Dfree86jvote. Hi, PJ. I'm a high school English teacher, and I teach a class called Knowledge of the World that asks students to pose big and small questions for research projects they'll eventually pursue and present on. I've turned them onto a search engine, and we're currently obsessed with the question, why is la fermier? Is that how you say it?

[Garrett Graham]

La fermiere.

[PJ Vogt]

La fermiere. La fermiere. The only yogurt that comes in a clay pot. We're deep in the throes of our investigation. Can you help us?

[Garrett Graham]

Yeah. So that was the question we received on Twitter. Small question about a specific yogurt brand and why it came in a clay pot rather than a plastic one. Okay, check, check, check. And it turned out the school that this question was coming from was just a few subway stops away from our office. So Shruti and I figured we would investigate their investigation. The story we found, I'm gonna tell it to you in chapters. So chapter one, the school.

[Anouk]

Can you tell me where we're going?

[Garrett Graham]

Yeah, we are on 75th in York, and we are headed to Lyce de New York, too. By this point, I'd already traded some emails with Dfree86. His real name turned out to be David Freeman. And he explained that he was a teacher at this French school in Manhattan. And one of the classes he teaches is basically a French school version of search engine Like. That's kind of what he seems to be doing here.

[PJ Vogt]

Sacre bleu. I'm gonna do that seven more times.

[Garrett Graham]

I'm so sorry. What does that mean, sacre bleu? I have no idea.

[PJ Vogt]

It could be super rude.

[Garrett Graham]

It means sacred something.

[PJ Vogt]

Sacred blue.

[Garrett Graham]

Sacred blue.

[Anouk]

Hello.

[PJ Vogt]

Good morning.

[Garrett Graham]

Nice to see you.

[David Freeman]

David.

[Garrett Graham]

Hey, David. Hey, Garrett.

[David Freeman]

How you doing?

[Garrett Graham]

Doing great.

[Romy]

How are you?

[David Freeman]

Yeah, nice to see you. Thank you for coming.

[Garrett Graham]

Thanks for meeting us down.

[David Freeman]

Absolutely.

[Garrett Graham]

I think we gotta sign in David greets us. And I want you to imagine, like the prototypical high school English teacher.

[PJ Vogt]

Which prototype?

[Garrett Graham]

Youngish, tasteful glasses, sharp haircut.

[David Freeman]

Yeah, that way up the staircase, there's a sort of adjacent building.

[Garrett Graham]

So the Lyce Francais de New York. It's a bilingual school, mostly K from France and the U.S. although there are students from all over. And it's an old school, started in 1935.

[David Freeman]

This was before my time, but it was in these big sort of old New York City walk up buildings.

[Garrett Graham]

And David's been at the school for the last 14 years, and he teaches two subjects, English, and also the class that we're here to see. The class all about curiosity.

[David Freeman]

Guys, grab a seat.

[Garrett Graham]

What time does the class usually start?

[David Freeman]

The class starts at 10:15, and I did recommend that they be on time.

[Garrett Graham]

The students start streaming in. It's about 15 students in total. And as the final stragglers take their seats, David just launched, launches into his lesson for the day.

[David Freeman]

All right, guys, are we ready? Yes. Good. Hi, by the way. Happy Thursday. All right, so I want to talk a little bit about the course in general and then the nature of the sort of question asking in it. And then we're going to make our way to a specific example question which I hope will stimulate you as much as it stimulates me.

[Garrett Graham]

And David, I should say at this point, avid podcast listener, maybe a bit of a podcast producer at heart. And so with a bit of a flare for the dramatic, he begins to recreate the question that brought us here.

[David Freeman]

The question that has been obsessing me, the question that I keep finding myself affronted by, is to do with the cafeteria in the school and walking through the cafeteria line and looking at all the things available for purchase. And every time I walk by, I see the same thing that you see, which is this thing.

[Garrett Graham]

The students start giggling here because David has very theatrically revealed a pot of yogurt.

[David Freeman]

All right, what are we looking at?

[Garrett Graham]

La Famille Yogurt.

[David Freeman]

La Fermiere Yogurt.

[Garrett Graham]

La Fermiere is a small, artisan French yogurt brand. Do you know this brand?

[PJ Vogt]

I really despise yogurt, so I historically have not known it because of this question. And now when I'm in, like, a fancier corner store, I notice this brand.

[Garrett Graham]

You'll see them. Yeah. So La Firmer yogurt stands out from the other brands in the grocery store because instead of the plastic packaging, you typically see yogurt come in. La Vermeer comes in these cutely colored Often lavender clay pots. It's a premium yogurt. Definitely more expensive than your Chobanis and your Yoplais. They have, like, premium sounding flavors. Rose, lavender, orange blossom, honey.

[David Freeman]

So I walk by this thing, and, you know, I would say, I'm a yogurt consumer. I like to eat a yogurt. And every time I walk by it, I ask myself this question. Why is this the only yogurt in the entire world that comes in a clay pot? Now, there's an asterisk. It's not the only yogurt in the whole world, but it's the only one that I see in my everyday life that comes in a clay pot. None of the other ones do. So my question is, why?

[Garrett Graham]

David asks his students for theories. Like, why would this one company choose to use clay pots when pretty much no other company does anybody have any theories?

[David Freeman]

Come on, be honest. Mario.

[Garrett Graham]

Is it good for the environment?

[David Freeman]

Anouk.

[Anouk]

Is it cheaper to produce than plastic pots?

[David Freeman]

Right. Rami?

[Romy]

Is it some type of marketing thing where it's, oh, I'm not eating yogurt out of a plastic pot. I'm eating it out of a clay pot. You know, it's like some type of image.

[David Freeman]

Good. If this were the small question we were starting with as a small question to start with, what are some things that we could do to try and figure out the answer to this question? Estelle.

[Anouk]

We could contact the brand to see if they had any specific reasons when they first produced the yogurt.

[David Freeman]

Specific reasons for packaging it the way that they do. Okay.

[PJ Vogt]

Is it strange for you at all, like, observing a sort of search engine style inquiry unfold in the real world?

[Garrett Graham]

It's weird seeing this teacher do the thing that we do in pitch meetings, which is just to start to wonder at the possible explanations for these strange questions we encounter.

[PJ Vogt]

Yes.

[David Freeman]

Other ideas. Anouk.

[Anouk]

Just go on their website and see if they have anything about it.

[David Freeman]

Go on their website, see if they have anything about it. Here's why we do this thing. Olivia.

[Anouk]

Ask people that buy these yogurts. So, like, the cafeteria or others, why they want to buy this type of yogurt.

[David Freeman]

So in other words, if it sells, if it's popular, if it. Okay, I think we're gonna stop there. Good job, guys.

[Garrett Graham]

So David wraps up the class discussion, and he pulls me and Truthi aside. He had told us earlier that he'd chosen two students for this yogurt question to try to figure out why, like, why la. For me, Air was using clay pots for their yogurt.

[David Freeman]

And they are my intrepid student volunteers for this particular project.

[Garrett Graham]

I don't know if that's good luck or bad luck, but thank you all the same.

[David Freeman]

So we're going to start at the.

[Garrett Graham]

Cap series, chapter two, the students. Okay, for the record, can I just get you to say your name?

[Romy]

My name is Romy.

[Anouk]

My name is Anouk.

[Garrett Graham]

Romy And Anouk, both 11th graders at the school.

[Romy]

Juniors.

[Anouk]

So juniors. Yep.

[David Freeman]

All right. And which in French is what? Is called what?

[Romy]

Premiere.

[Garrett Graham]

I'd get to know Romy and Anouk much better in the many months that would follow. Romy, I would learn, grew up in New York. She's one of those teenagers who almost seems like a fully formed professional somehow.

[PJ Vogt]

Yes, yes.

[Garrett Graham]

Anouk's family is from France, and she's a more laid back type. Like, she seemed to have the kind of curiosity that chases all sorts of things, just not necessarily the stuff that shows up on a syllabus.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Garrett Graham]

And of course, anytime we're trying to help somebody answer a question, one thing we want to know is, why do they specifically care about it? Oh, first of all, do you guys eat yogurt?

[Romy]

I mean, I used to eat more yogurt than now, but, yeah, I would say I eat some yogurt.

[Anouk]

And yes, on a daily basis, probably.

[Garrett Graham]

And what about La Familiere?

[Anouk]

No, I don't really eat La Familiere yogurt, except when I want yogurt at school, because it's the one they sell, but usually not.

[Garrett Graham]

And what do you usually eat?

[Anouk]

Trader Joe's Greek yogurt. Very good recommend.

[Garrett Graham]

So Romeo and Anouk a little more blase about La Familiere than their teacher. Okay, enough so that Shruti and I are beginning to wonder, like, are these two student investigators even interested in this question? Like, is this something they're excited about or is this just a homework assignment? So I do have one question, though, and everyone has to be honest here. Whose question is this, really? Is it your question, David, that you have sent your students off to investigate? Or do you. Does either of you have, like, is this something you're thinking about?

[David Freeman]

I'm curious how you would answer this.

[Anouk]

It was your question.

[Romy]

It was your question.

[Garrett Graham]

Yeah, both of them sort of say, immediately, it was your question, David, not our question. And then David replies in what I can only describe as fluent teacher.

[David Freeman]

I would say it was my question in a pedagogical, demonstrative, educationally effective capacity, which was. Because when we first had the conversation, it was a couple of months ago. Right. And it's a brand new course. It's a little nebulous to them and to me. And so when we were thinking about how you find a research question, big, small, small, big, I wanted an example that I could be honest and earnest about for how you start with a small question and turn it into something that can be big enough to encompass a research project. Right. So where this thing ends up, where it lands in terms of the various reasons why this thing is, is itself a kind of representative of the sort of process that the kids are going through. Right. They themselves have to.

[Garrett Graham]

I will admit, Vijay, in this moment, my faith in this yogurt question was getting kind of low. Reasonably, I was like more with the students here and their seeming ambivalence than I was with their teacher. But also, it turned out I was underestimating him because by the time this was all over, this question would become interesting, actually.

[PJ Vogt]

Interesting.

[Garrett Graham]

Yeah. Not in a pedagogical, demonstrative, educationally effective way, like properly interesting.

[PJ Vogt]

Okay.

[Garrett Graham]

But on that day, we all just sort of dutifully get into the elevator. We're heading to the school cafeteria, which is the first stop in our investigation. And on our way there, I started talking to Anouk about her relationship to dairy products back when she was growing up in France.

[Anouk]

So I would say just consuming milk and milk based products is something that's very advertised in France. For example, in my childhood TV show. And everything they would say at every ad break, oh, you have to consume five vegetables a day. Also 3. Three different milk based products a day. So it's definitely like a big part of especially children's lives because there's this thing of like, you're gonna grow taller if you eat yogurt and all of that.

[Garrett Graham]

I didn't really think about this at the time when I first showed up to the lycee. But one of the reasons this question was coming from this place is just that French people are extraordinarily precious about their dairy products.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, right. They like cheese, they take.

[Garrett Graham]

And just food in general. They take the quality and craft of food far more seriously than we do. Like, it felt unintuitive for me as like a kid who grew up on easy cheese and country Crock. Like, I know you don't like yogurt, but if you've ever had like a fancy cheese or a traditional French butter and then gone back to like the mass produced American.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Garrett Graham]

And they just eat way more of it than we do too. Like the average French person eats something like 60 pounds of cheese and 45 pounds of yogurt every year.

[PJ Vogt]

Wait, sorry, what?

[Garrett Graham]

Which is a lot more than Americans consume either. 60 pounds of cheese and 45 pounds of yogurt every year.

[PJ Vogt]

What's so funny about that? Besides, everything is. It's an average. So, like, there's lactose intolerant people in France, and other people are eating enough to make the average go up to that number.

[Garrett Graham]

The upper end of that bell curve is probably very upsetting.

[PJ Vogt]

Yes.

[Garrett Graham]

But back at the school, our little yogurt investigation squad walked into the cafeteria, classic high school lunchroom, with those long tables with the little attached stools, food serving stations in the back. The cafeteria is empty at this point except for two adults who were seated at this one table. Hello. How are you?

[David Freeman]

Marcus, the chef. And this is Romy and Anouk.

[PJ Vogt]

Hello.

[David Freeman]

They are 11th graders who are helping us with this project on yogurt.

[Garrett Graham]

We were here to talk to the head of the cafeteria about La Fermiere. He was one of the people responsible for stocking this specific yogurt in the lunchroom.

[PJ Vogt]

Okay.

[Garrett Graham]

He was another adult, like the teacher, who seemed enchanted by this brand. And so Romy, one of the students.

[Romy]

Asks, so how popular is this yogurt? Like, do you sell out every day? Do a lot of people eat it? Teachers, students?

[Garrett Graham]

It's pretty popular with the staff and with the faculty. The students, unfortunately, I think, are more toward, like, oh, I want a cookie, or I want chips. But the adults seem to really enjoy it.

[Romy]

Yeah. Why do you think it's the only yogurt, basically the most popular yogurt that comes in a clay pot?

[Garrett Graham]

Well, if you check out the La Familia website, it's actually a really great website. And they do this whole promotion on reusable and sustainable, and you can take these pots and they give you all these ideas what you can do with them. So I think Mark didn't have much of an answer here beyond what the company was already saying on its website, that clay. Sometimes they'll say terracotta or ceramic. Basically the same thing, but saying it's a premium material with all kinds of reusability and sustainability benefits. It's really. You can do a lot of things with a clay pot. And honestly, we're all just kind of sitting there and nodding along. Romaine and nuke. I wouldn't say they're, like, actively engaged at this point. We're still inside the school building. Their teacher's still hovering close by. They're a little reserved but after the cafeteria, the next stop on our investigation list was just the local cafe next to the school, A spot with what I thought was a slightly over the top French name.

[Anouk]

Okay, so we're just outside of school right now, and we're gonna go in a cafe called Chez Les Frenchies, which is right next to the school, literally.

[Romy]

Next door, the key hangout spot.

[Garrett Graham]

How often do you come here?

[Romy]

I don't come here that often, but a lot of people do. Especially if you don't have time to go get a snack and you only have 15 minutes, and there's just. It's a lot of just French products. So if you want something French, come here.

[Garrett Graham]

It smells like France in here.

[Romy]

Yeah, it does smell like France in here.

[Garrett Graham]

Pj, I should tell you something. I know you have teenagers in your life. I don't really like to reveal a prejudice of mine. Like, high school students kind of make me nervous.

[PJ Vogt]

Because you feel like they're gonna humiliate you? Maybe.

[Garrett Graham]

Yeah. I have Gen Z friends. I've had Gen Z colleagues. But when you start getting to the younger parts of the generation, or like, whatever we're calling the next generation Gen Alpha, I just. I don't know. I don't know how to hang. I don't know the lingo.

[PJ Vogt]

Well, the thing that's hard, actually, just so you know, it's not knowing the lingo because you're not supposed to use the lingo. And when you say, like, no, cap on God, it really upsets them, which is a reason to do it. It's actually that there's certain words we use that they really react to. Like, they're almost allergic to them.

[Garrett Graham]

As an example, sick.

[PJ Vogt]

Sick. That's sick.

[Garrett Graham]

Oh, it just feels like millennial cringe or what?

[PJ Vogt]

They wouldn't even say millennial cringe, but they're just like. It's like being like, what's up, dudes? They hate it. And it made me realize, like. Oh, right. Of course the generic words for cool get generationally cycled because there's other words for something being cool or agreeable that you can use that they won't react to. But, like, say that something's sick in front of someone around 13, they will burn you to Hades. And it doesn't not feel bad. It feels quite bad.

[Garrett Graham]

Yeah, it sounds bad.

[PJ Vogt]

It's really bad. I think it's also just like. I think for some reason, when you become old, you expect that young people will automatically afford you respect, which I never did as a young person.

[Garrett Graham]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

And they don't do either.

[Garrett Graham]

The thing that you're describing is the thing that made me kind of nervous, walking into a high school with somewhat aloof high school kids.

[PJ Vogt]

I understand. I don't like to eat American yogurt.

[Garrett Graham]

And I'm feeling that way as we talk to the owner of this cafe, learning once again that adults love this yogurt. The pots are cute. They're reusable. Cabinet.

[Anouk]

I use them in my kitchen.

[Garrett Graham]

You use them for different things. But as the hour winds by, I can slowly feel Romy and Anouk warming to the assignment a little bit. Or maybe it's just because we're starting to get to the point where they might get to miss their next class. And that's, like, exciting for them. You guys owe me for letting you miss math class.

[Romy]

I'm missing philosophy right now.

[Garrett Graham]

Ooh. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[Romy]

Sometimes. Yeah.

[Garrett Graham]

So we're making small talk about class. David, the teacher, has to duck out to go teach his next class. And so for the first time, Shruti and I get a moment alone with these students, which means I finally get to ask them what they really think about this investigation we're on.

[Anouk]

Yeah, I mean, that's pretty much it.

[Garrett Graham]

Chapter three, the student's point of view. So you have this conversation in class. We sit down in the school library, and I just asked them to tell me about that first class when their teacher, David, pitched this yogurt question to them. Can you just briefly, in a few sentences describe sort of what that class looked like in that day?

[Romy]

So in the beginning, we were all very surprised with the question and kind of confused. Like, Mr. Freeman was, oh, my God, I have this really interesting question. It's. We were like that. This is your question.

[Anouk]

I feel like everyone was kind of annoyed at the end of this class because they were like, why do we have to spend so much time, like so much of our free time, homework and everything on a yogurt question that nobody cares about?

[Garrett Graham]

They're like, look, I get it. This is school. But if we're going to be taking a two year research class, like, why can't we spend our time researching stuff we actually care about?

[Anouk]

We have been told that, oh, you have to do a project about something you're passionate about, but we have been presented with things we're not passionate about.

[Romy]

Yeah. Especially with this class. It's like when teachers are asking you to do something and to research something you're not interested in, it's hard. But with this question, we all have kind of come up with topics that we are interested in, all of us. But then we're asked to do this about yogurt. We're just like, why can't we spend more time researching the things that we're actually interested in, if that makes sense.

[PJ Vogt]

So what do they want to know about?

[Garrett Graham]

Not yogurt pots. What do you wish you were spending your time on instead of thinking about yogurt?

[Romy]

So I've mostly I've been researching, like, why is America over medicated? And I really am interested in, like, the 19th century, the civil War, kind of where that all started with morphine. And how that's progressed to where we are now, which is this, like, cataclysmic crisis.

[Garrett Graham]

Like, hearing her talk about this, I was like, oh, of course this yogurt question sounds stupid to you. Like, of course this feels like a waste of your time.

[PJ Vogt]

It's also so funny to hear the difference between the curiosity you're asked to have versus the curiosity that you have. Like, people. The aliveness with which when someone talks about a real question, they come alive.

[Garrett Graham]

And that was the feeling I was having in this library, is like, oh, these students are coming alive for the first time because they're talking about stuff that they're excited about.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Garrett Graham]

And it's not yogurt. And what do you wish you were thinking about in your yogurt thinking time?

[Anouk]

To be completely honest, I wish I was spending this time to figure out what I want to spend it about. Like, I'm really bad at just finding specific questions or specific things that I'm interested about. So I have some, like, general themes. So I love design, I love architecture, art. But I just haven't been able to come up with a specific question.

[Garrett Graham]

Anouk doesn't know what she wants her final project to be, but in what I'm learning is, like, kind of classic Anouk fashion. She was like, I'd rather just be using this time to figure out what I actually am interested in. And so, like, again, a clay pot of yogurt. Not something that was immediately attention grabbing for her.

[PJ Vogt]

Right. Okay, so where do you go from there when you realize your two principles are, like, have other designs?

[Garrett Graham]

Well, it's funny cause this is something that, like, occasionally comes up for us on our show. Some weeks we spend our time thinking about small and unserious questions.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Garrett Graham]

Like, we might be trying to track down a Russian rapper. And meanwhile, the economy is crashing and the president's trying to, like, dismantle the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau or something. It's like, wait, how sad are the monkeys in the zoo again? And that was coming to mind as I was hearing them talk about their serious research interests, bumping up against this silly yogurt question. But this is in some ways the entire point of David's class.

[PJ Vogt]

He's trying to teach them the disciplined form of curiosity.

[Garrett Graham]

Yeah, he's trying to say maybe it's a more valuable skill, or at least it's the skill that this class is trying to teach you, that you should be able to chase down answers to questions that you don't care about.

[PJ Vogt]

And you might learn in the process. That somebody used to say to me about exercising, my friend Lily was like, action precedes motivation. Like, start doing it and you might discover something. So you're now on board. You're like, let's force these children to talk yogurt.

[Garrett Graham]

I've kind of been like connaissance, demand pilled. Where I'm like, let's just see if this is possible.

[PJ Vogt]

We're going to take a short break and then this week, Search Engine's Garrett Graham will embed with his pair of teenage detectives as they complete a very involved homework assignment as accusations are hurled as a beloved international yogurt brand becomes somewhat unsettled. All that after these publicites. This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Mint Mobile. You know what doesn't belong in your epic summer plans? Getting burned by your old wireless bill. While you're planning beach trips, barbecues and three day weekends, your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. That's why you should switch to Mint Mobile. With plans starting at 15 bucks a month, Mint Mobile gives you premium wireless service on the nation's largest 5G network. The coverage and speed you're used to, but way less money. So while your friends are sweating over data overages and surprise charges, you'll be chilling, literally and financially. Say bye bye to your overpriced wireless plans. Jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages because Mint Mobile is here to rescue you. You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. If I needed to switch wireless providers, this is where I would go this year. Skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get your summer savings and shop premium Wireless [e-mail] Search that's mintmobile.com Search Upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month New customer offer for your first 3 months Only then, full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com for details. This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Bombus. Summer's here and we're all chasing something. A break, a goal, a vibe. Let's not let bad socks and blisters ruin that. Bombus makes socks and now slides and seamless essentials that keep up with whatever your summer looks like. Whether you're running a marathon or just a few errands. Maybe you have running goals. You know that song that makes you want to go fast? Bombus running socks are like that. They wick sweat, help you keep cool and fight blisters. And it's not just running. They make specialized pairs for hiking, tennis, golf, you name it. They offer head to toe comfort. They've got fresh white tees you barely have to break in, waterproof slides for the beach, backyard, and everywhere in between, and buttery soft sweat wicking underwear that feels barely there. I have converted to basically an all Bombas sock wardrobe. They're comfy, they're stylish. I genuinely like them. Head over to bombus.com engine and use code ENGINE for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B-A-S.com engine code engine at checkout bombas.com engine codeengine.

[Garrett Graham]

Welcome back to the show. Chapter four. Looking for Treasure. So, PJ, a couple of months have passed since my first visit to the French school, and we're about to hop on a call to start our investigation for real. And the first thing as a curiosity.

[PJ Vogt]

At this point, is it inside you? Like, are you like. It's not. I feel like it hasn't yet bitten you.

[Garrett Graham]

No. The thing that I think is propelling me and motivating me at this point is the fact that I'm getting to, like, investigate this alongside two high schoolers who seem bored by it. Like, the fun part for me is not, can I answer this question?

[PJ Vogt]

It's can you make them care about it?

[Garrett Graham]

Can I get these students interested in this question? Okay, so I get on a zoom with Romy and Anouk. Can you both tell me what you had for breakfast this morning so I can check your levels?

[Romy]

I had cereal for breakfast.

[Anouk]

I had a child's breakfast. I had carrot cake and chocolate cake for breakfast.

[David Freeman]

You had two types of cake for breakfast?

[Garrett Graham]

That's inspirational. I have to admit, it's funny. Everybody we ever interview, we ask what they had for breakfast. And then with an adult, we usually follow that up by saying, can you Say your name and what you do for a living. But for high school students who don't yet do anything for a living, I had a different introductory question that I thought might tell me something about them. So when you guys were both younger, I'm curious, what did you want to be when you grew up? Like, the earliest answer you can remember for yourself for that question. What did you guys want to be?

[Romy]

I think I wanted to be, like, either a doctor or a scientist.

[Anouk]

I think I wanted to be an archaeologist. I was really obsessed with history, and I was a super curious kid. And I really wanted, like. I loved treasure hunts, stuff like that. For example. I love thrifting. And I think it's the same feeling in a way. It's like you're trying to find this treasure.

[Garrett Graham]

That feeling that Anouk's teacher is trying to inspire in her, like, curiosity about the small things she says. It's a feeling she often has, just rarely about school.

[Anouk]

So I don't really like school because it just takes away free time from me. Like, I would much rather just spend my entire days, like, drawing and playing music, stuff like that. So I usually find some school pretty boring.

[Romy]

Yeah, there are some classes that I do, like, enjoy. I really like to learn. But I think kind of the stress of it sometimes takes away from that. Well, sometimes a lot of the times takes away from, like, the kind of pleasure you get from learning or, like, the drive that you have, because I think I'm a very driven person when it comes to that. And if some things I care about, but some of the classes, I just cannot. I couldn't care less.

[Garrett Graham]

And that's a little bit how these two students were feeling in their class about curiosity with that exceptionally eager teacher, David Freeman. Like, some of the early assignments to them just felt pretty dull.

[Romy]

We had this assignment that was like this research project about your building that you live in.

[Anouk]

Yeah. And it was still not really clear what the whole thing was about, and everybody's still a little bit confused.

[Garrett Graham]

And then came that day that Mr. Freeman showed up with his pot of yogurt. And you know what happens from there?

[Anouk]

I mean, I feel like when we came in, we were like, oh, come on. Like, not another stupid project. And this time it's about yogurt, too. Like, the most stupid one in our opinion. Like, just about a pot of yogurt.

[Romy]

But then two weeks later, he said, I contacted this podcast team. Then. I think that made it more exciting, at least for me, because it made it feel more real.

[Garrett Graham]

David told his class that he had two spots available to be a part of the project, and Romy and Anouk decided to go for it.

[Anouk]

Just had to send him an email with all our arguments to how we would make the best students for the assignment. But I feel like I just have this thing of, like, fear of missing out. Also, I had seen that my hawk was on the podcast.

[Romy]

I think Anouk and I are the only people who applied.

[Anouk]

We're not the best, we're just the.

[Garrett Graham]

Yeah, you're the only.

[Romy]

I mean, I think that's what it was.

[Garrett Graham]

So that all brings us to today on this zoom call, talking about how we want to tackle this yogurt question. Yeah, and we decided to start someplace easy. La Fermiere's website, chapter five, Red Flags. The website, it's very artfully designed, very sleek looking photos of their yogurt. And we just navigate over to the FAQ page.

[Romy]

Okay, Should I just read it?

[Garrett Graham]

Yeah, go for it. Where? Helpfully, maybe a little anticlimactically, one of the questions there is our question.

[Romy]

Why are you using terracotta in glass pots?

[Garrett Graham]

And the company's answer, we believe that.

[Romy]

Our all natural natural yogurt deserves an all natural packaging. Terracotta is a natural material that has been a useful tool in the kitchen for centuries. Pots, plates, platters, etc, and it still is today.

[Anouk]

Already, from the first sentence on, they're trying to use the packaging as a way to say that their yogurts are great because they're calling it all natural packaging for all natural yogurt. And those are very broad words like what does all natural reference?

[Garrett Graham]

So finding the American website lacking in detail, we head over to the French website to see if it had any other information we could use. Pj I'm just going to translate this for you.

[PJ Vogt]

And you've been taking French classes.

[Garrett Graham]

I have been taking French classes. The translation is roughly, these packages remain among the most ecological because they are inert, meaning they do not deteriorate the materials they come into contact with in a way that could cause damage to the environment. Unlike plastic, for example, which when decomposed produces byproducts that are potentially dangerous for the environment and health. And so when the students read the company's appeal to sustainability on this website, it was like they were just naturally wired to think that this company was trying to pull a fast one on them.

[Romy]

I mean, certain brands have a whole page on their website where they can actually detail to you what exactly they're doing to be sustainable. You know, if you look at La Fermiere there's only like, two sentences. Is this really giving me a full explanation as to why? Not really. It was like, oh, it's because we're eco friendly. I just had the biggest eyebrow raise ever. Like, really? I don't know. Big question mark. That's what it feels like. Big question mark.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, so now it's like, now they're curious because now they're a little paranoid.

[Garrett Graham]

This is the first time that I start to see the, like, flicker of real curiosity in their eyes is like, this company is lying to us.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, you're saying that these youngsters have a more suspicious relationship to capitalism than us oldsters?

[Garrett Graham]

Well, it's funny, I wasn't quite sure if it was their generation or if it was their, like, Frenchness, but they are naturally far more skeptical of corporations than I think I was, at least in high school.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Garrett Graham]

But Romy told me this story that helped me understand where this generation is coming from. Like, really how the media they've experienced has shaped their worldview.

[Romy]

If you've ever watched Nickelodeon in your lifetime, you know that there are a plethora of ads, like, and they're all so colorful and, you know, bright, and they have this really obnoxious music. I feel like I always embrace them as a kid. I don't ever have a memory of not. But I don't know, it's interesting. You kind of grow older and you start to be a little skeptical. I think that also kind of just comes with being a teenager. I'm not going to lie. And then, you know, I think also in quarantine, like, we were all on our phones and so you actually learned a lot. Like, you know, people always like, oh, yeah, you just sit in bed and do nothing. But, like, you actually learn a lot on a deep dive on some sort of TikTok or Google. Like, you kind of learn about fast fashion, what that does to the environment, and you start learning about the detriments of what companies do. I think it was specifically with fashion. I think it really was a turning point for me. You learn about how horrible, you know, the working conditions are. They're barely paid, how much they produce, and how much people are buying just to wear the shirt once and never again.

[Garrett Graham]

To me, it was interesting. I've heard parents talk about how much screen time their teenagers were getting during the pandemic, but I'd never actually heard anybody wonder about, like, what specific rabbit holes they were going down while looking at their screens.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Garrett Graham]

And for Romeo and Anuk, it seemed to be this kind of anti consumerist rabbit hole.

[Anouk]

I know that when a brand says that they're doing something fully for their customers and fully for the environment, it's usually hiding something. And it's usually they're doing it for their own profit because that's just how everything works. And we wouldn't be facing climate change and we wouldn't be having those issues if every company's first motive was to make Earth and the people happy. I know that in our world, everything, most things are for profit and have to be for profit.

[Romy]

Yeah. Because if it was actually the best way to make, make yogurt more sustainable, why are there only like two other brands here and there that do it?

[Anouk]

Yeah. I was thinking, I feel like maybe ceramics is better for the environment. Like it doesn't. Like if you discard it in nature, it's not gonna like last as long whatever than plastic. But it's also a lot heavier. So when for transportation, that means you can't transfer as much of it. It's like more CO2.

[Garrett Graham]

So the students, what they seem to think was going on here was that the company knows sustainability is important to high end consumers. So if a product looks sustainable and can be marketed as sustainable, who cares if the thing is actually sustainable? Like what's important is what the consumer thinks, because what the consumer thinks will determine how much they can sell it for.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah. And like, you know, there's plenty of evidence in our culture for this idea that oftentimes labeling something as ethical is a thin marketing technique. And La Fermiere's CEO probably goes to bed every night not wondering if a crack team of of high school skeptics is gonna descend on his terracotta plant or her terracotta plant.

[Garrett Graham]

Well, to be clear, there's no evidence, at least online at this point that anything actually fishy was going on. This is just some teenage theorizing at this point. But we decided to reach out to the company to see if anyone there was down to talk to us about their clay pots.

[PJ Vogt]

Like a bunch of French kids. Think you're lying? Do you wanna be on our podcast?

[Garrett Graham]

I didn't go. That was not my email to the company. And to be clear, we were going in skeptical, but also with an open mind. Chapter 6 the yogurt executive can you hear yourself when you talk?

[Romy]

No, I can't hear anything.

[David Freeman]

I can't hear anybody.

[Romy]

I can hear a nuke. Oh my God. I can hear myself.

[Anouk]

Hey peoples.

[Romy]

I can hear myself talk. Can you guys hear?

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[David Freeman]

Yeah, that's. Yeah.

[Romy]

Is that Normal.

[Garrett Graham]

So I meet up with the students and their teacher David at Search Engine hq. It's all very exciting. An executive at La Frontiere has very generously agreed to talk to us.

[Anouk]

Okay, so hi, could you say maybe your name and what you do?

[Charlotte Marchand]

Yeah, of course. My name is Charlotte Marchand and I've been with La Fermiere for five years now. I'm the head of sales and marketing.

[Garrett Graham]

So as the head of sales and marketing in the us, Charlotte would be the first one to admit, like, she's not a sustainability expert, but she does know the company and its products very well. And so Romy asked her, can you.

[Romy]

Just tell me the story of the ceramic pots and kind of how they came about and what they mean to the company in general?

[Charlotte Marchand]

In 1995, this was the appearance of the terracotta pot, actually, because at the beginning they were using a paper cup. But very soon after the creation of the company, the former owner wanted to give to the consumer elevated experience. But also he wanted something new in the market, something no one did before. So he wanted the perfect packaging for this. And the perfect packaging for this was ceramic pots.

[Garrett Graham]

So basically La Fourmiere yogurt for many decades had come in wax coated paper pots. And then in the 90s, Charlotte tells us that the company decided to switch to the terracotta pot, both because they wanted to stand out to their customers, but also because they were thinking about the environment.

[Charlotte Marchand]

For us, it's very important to propose one of the most sustainable packaging for our products. I don't know if you know, but our ceramic pot is made of 95% of clay, which is a natural material, and then 5% of non toxic clay. So there is like a minimal environmental impact because it's made from natural materials.

[Garrett Graham]

And as soon as Charlotte is starting to like sing the praises of this terracotta pot for all of its ecological virtues, I can see the students kind of like squirming in their chairs.

[PJ Vogt]

It's just making them more suspicious.

[Garrett Graham]

They sort of get this wry smile on their face, you know, Cause Charlotte is more or less repeating what we found on the website.

[Charlotte Marchand]

She keeps saying, high quality ingredient, high.

[Garrett Graham]

Quality packaging, high quality ingredients, high quality packaging. Which is like a good slogan, but doesn't necessarily offer much of a window into how the company is actually thinking about the environmental trade offs.

[PJ Vogt]

And she's wandering into a room full of teenage sharpshooters.

[Garrett Graham]

So Romy tries to press Charlotte on the topic.

[Romy]

So one thing we've learned actually from, you know, our research is that that it's really hard to measure sustainability and how something actually impacts the environment because there are just so many factors involved. How did La Familia decide that ceramics were the most sustainable option?

[Charlotte Marchand]

So I will not say. We will say it's the most sustainable option. I would say it's one of the most sustainable options and one of the best option we could have today. I totally agree with you. It's more complex than that because there is multiple factors. And I will not be able to answer you properly, as I'm not a sustainability expert, you know, but for sure, when you take the mix of the consumer experience, the fact there is no impact on the environment, if you just throw away your pots, it will not damage the environment. So that means there is no pollution on the air again, no pollution on the ocean, no pollution for animals, et cetera.

[Garrett Graham]

And Charlotte's like, look, Terracotta, not the villain here. The villain here is the other kinds of packaging. And the word that nobody, he's saying is like, plastic's the obvious villain here. Terracotta is obviously better for the environment than plastic.

[PJ Vogt]

But her this corporate cheer and insistence is not totally playing with the teenage skeptics.

[Garrett Graham]

No, it is not. And they're also asking these kinds of serious hardball questions, like they're teenagers, but they just seem very well versed in what I would think of as, like, adult corporate consultant lingo.

[Romy]

Can you just describe what you want consumers to think about when they think of the brand La Fermiere? Like, what does your brand identity really look like?

[Charlotte Marchand]

So for us, it's like, indulgent and natural. So we want people to have a treat, but a treat with, like, something that's not harmful to the tooth and health, you know.

[Romy]

You said you had five ingredients. What are they?

[Garrett Graham]

It was almost like the students had decided to go full prosecutor here.

[Charlotte Marchand]

So we have milk cream culture, of course, and the yogurt, vanilla bean, for example, and cane sugar. So that's the only ingredient we have. So here in the us we are manufacturing our product upstate New York. So we get our milk and cream upstate New York, like, very, very close to our production facility.

[Garrett Graham]

This is actually surprising to me. Like, I'd assumed that the French yogurt came from France, but the ingredients are actually arriving from in state in New York, which did seem maybe more environmentally sound, although so not something La Famile is particularly bragging about. We started to wrap up the conversation and we say our awkward goodbyes. We thank Charlotte for her time. Charlotte, thank you so much for your time. This is really helpful. We appreciate it. We'll talk soon.

[Charlotte Marchand]

Thank you.

[Romy]

Bye.

[Anouk]

Bye.

[David Freeman]

Bye now.

[Anouk]

Bye. Thank you.

[Garrett Graham]

Romy and Anouk coming off of that call are just, like, positively elated. Like, I think one. I just think they're excited to be in the same podcast studio that Maya Hawke was once inside of. Well, yeah, But I also think that, like, they just played hardball with the company executive and they kind of won.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah. An adult flinch.

[Garrett Graham]

Yeah.

[PJ Vogt]

There's no thing that makes a teenager happier than, like, an adult flinch.

[Garrett Graham]

It's not like we got any answers. Like, it's not like we're actually that much closer to the real answer to our question here, which is, like, is terracotta more sustainable than plastic? But Romy and Anouk, at this point, are just increasingly skeptical that the answers the company is giving us are anything more than just marketing speak.

[Anouk]

Like, for premium brands now, it's kind of a given that if they're gonna price it so much higher, they're gonna have to do something about climate change.

[Romy]

Cause it's like, such brands now.

[Garrett Graham]

Yeah.

[Romy]

Even, like, literally makeup.

[Anouk]

Anything has to have a claim that, oh, we're doing this to protect the planet.

[Romy]

Or ethical. Whether it be ethics or societies, they're.

[Anouk]

Good at, like, making it show. Even though it's not really true.

[Garrett Graham]

Even though if they were skeptical just reading La Fermire's website, Romien and Ook were much more skeptical, having just spoken to a person at the company. But Also, like, we're two 11th graders and a podcast producer who majored in literature.

[PJ Vogt]

Yes.

[Garrett Graham]

We don't actually know what we're talking about.

[PJ Vogt]

Well, what we're told about literature and liberal arts in general is that it's not about what it teaches you. It's about how it teaches you how to think.

[Garrett Graham]

Well, it taught me to think that we needed to talk to an expert here. And after a break, that's exactly what we're gonna do.

[Anouk]

Summer's here, and Nordstrom has everything you need for your best dressed season ever. From beach days and weddings to weekend getaways in your everyday wardrobe, discover stylish options under $100 from tons of your favorite brands, like Mango Skims, Princess Polly, and madewell. It's easy, too, with free shipping and free returns in store order, pickup and more. Shop today in stores [e-mail] or download the Nordstrom app. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time. With services like Prime Video, Amazon Music and fast free delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more.

[Romy]

With a Venmo debit card, you can.

[Garrett Graham]

Venmo more than just your friends.

[Romy]

You can use your balance in so many ways. You can Venmo everything. Need gas? You can Venmo this.

[Garrett Graham]

How about snacks?

[Romy]

You can Venmo that. Your favorite band's merch. You can Venmo this. Or their next show?

[Garrett Graham]

You can Venmo that.

[Romy]

Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license, my MasterCard International Inc. Card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply.

[Garrett Graham]

Hey, PJ.

[PJ Vogt]

Yes?

[Garrett Graham]

Welcome back to the show.

[PJ Vogt]

Thank you.

[Garrett Graham]

Chapter 7 A Surprising Answer so May of that year, nearing the end of 11th grade for Romeo and Anouk, I went back to the Lise for a second time. And you know that feeling when the end of the school year's around the corner? You can just kind of feel it. Everything's a little looser. Memorial Day's around the corner. Romy's actually busy the day that I show up. She had an exam that not even search engine could get her out of. But I do meet up with a nuke.

[Anouk]

Basically, I have this week of school, next week of school, and then two days, and after that it's just a full week of studying, then a French final and then another week of studying, then another French exam, and then I'm done.

[Garrett Graham]

So that sounds like a lot of studying and a lot of exams. The reason Anouk and I were meeting up in the middle of exam season was, of course, we still had some more yogurt homework to do. We knew La Fermiere was saying that terracotta was a sustainable selling point for their brand, but now we wanted to talk to a scientist who could help us understand whether or not that was actually true. And so, after doing some research, we landed on who we thought might be the right expert.

[Anouk]

Could you maybe say your name and what you do?

[Romy]

Sure.

[Shelley Miller]

I'm Shelley Miller. I'm a professor of Environment Sustainability at the University of Michigan.

[Anouk]

Okay, great. And how should we refer to. Do you refer maybe Dr. Miller?

[Shelley Miller]

Shelley is totally fine.

[Anouk]

Shelley.

[Shelley Miller]

All right.

[Anouk]

Perfect.

[Garrett Graham]

Shelley's work is fascinating. She does something called life cycle analysis, which means that she studies the environmental impact of products from the moment the materials are extracted from the ground to when they are manufactured, to when they're transported, to when eventually they're disposed or recycled. And so Anouk explains the class that she's taking and the question that came out of it to Shelley.

[Anouk]

So Connaissance du Monde is this course we have at our school that is part of this International Baccalaureate, which is this international exam that we take in French. And since we're all French, yogurt and this French brand of yogurt cola is an important part of our daily life. Especially we go to the cafeteria and there's this yogurt, and we're all wondering, like, why is it in clay pots instead of plastic pots like all the others? And so we started asking some other questions, especially related to sustainability and just maybe trying to find why that was.

[Shelley Miller]

Yeah, so first off, I'll just say this is such a great question. Things like this are a great way of starting to. To think about sustainability questions and analysis and really getting into the details of. All right, when we're trying to figure out environmental impacts of something, how do we even start going about doing that, knowing that there's lots of different environmental impacts and lots of different trade offs to consider? So for someone like me who really studies these things in a very systematic way, the first thing we do is try to figure out, well, what environmental impacts are we talking about?

[Garrett Graham]

The first thing that she says is that to answer a question like this, you need to know what your priorities are. Because she says that there's really no human activity that is good for the environment.

[PJ Vogt]

Podcasting, besides podcasting, she said, we only generate hot air.

[Garrett Graham]

That's warming the climate. Peter, that's not good. But what this means is that this is a conversation about trade offs.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Garrett Graham]

Because different things are bad for the environment in different ways. And so we asked her to kind of compare our two materials here, Terracotta and plastic. Yeah, she started with plastic, and right off the bat she's like, plastic has.

[Shelley Miller]

Terrible for the environment. Plastic causes environmental impacts throughout its entire life cycle. So plastics are made from natural gas byproducts. Making and manufacturing plastic has environmental impacts and air quality and also climate change emissions.

[Garrett Graham]

And then there's plastics afterlife. Like, it clogs, landfills, turtles, choke on it, microplastics, et cetera, et cetera.

[Shelley Miller]

And so we know for a fact that plastics cause environmental impact and sometimes other materials are even worse.

[Garrett Graham]

And this is where Shelley started to really surprise me. I think us actually, like, yes, plastic sucks.

[PJ Vogt]

Yes.

[Garrett Graham]

But remember, everything's a trade off here. And so like, how does plastic compare to everything else out there?

[Shelley Miller]

We need to take a broader look of saying, all right, well it's not plastic, then what? And are those materials actually better than plastic?

[Anouk]

Yeah. So for example, how do you go about weighing plastic against another material? Like, how does that work from a, like, professional standpoint?

[Shelley Miller]

Yeah, so what we do is we really look at the entire supply chain of a material. And so when it comes to plastic, one of the things that, you know, plastic is really good technically because it has some pretty fantastic technical characteristics that other materials don't have.

[Garrett Graham]

Shelly says, for instance, you can use a pretty small amount of plastic to perform the same function as much heavier materials like metal or glass or terracotta.

[Anouk]

Yeah, it's super interesting. That's exactly where we started to see kind of the fault in the image of La Fermiere, where we started thinking, okay, it's so much heavier that during transportation it probably emits a lot more CO2. And so we're really wondering where does this idea that plastic is bad or is worse maybe than glass or terracotta, where do you think that comes from?

[Shelley Miller]

You know, it's. So I will say that there are social scientists who can answer this question far better than I can as far as the psychology of perception and how people understand and perceive risk and impact. I think one of the things that is largely driving the conversation with plastic is that we can really see the impact of plastic in a way that we can't see the environmental impact of other materials. And so if we are able to take a picture of a beach that's strewn in microplastics, if we can take a picture of an animal that's entangled in some sort of plastic, or we see the carcass of a dead seabird whose stomach is filled with plastic, those are all heart wrenching images. And not only that, we, we can make the direct connection between what we see in those environmental damaging photographs and our lifestyles. We can see our own little consumption in those environmental impacts.

[Garrett Graham]

Just to say, Shelly is of course focusing on just the environmental impact here. Like obviously there's a whole other conversation to be had about the possible health impacts of plastics or microplastics that we're just not going to get into today. But when it comes to sustainability, Shelly thinks that plastic's reputation as public enemy number one kind of just boils down to how visible its environmental impacts are. Whereas with other materials like glass, metal, terracotta, a lot of these things require a ton of energy to produce and to transport and much more than plastic. But their impacts are just more abstract and less visual.

[Shelley Miller]

It's really hard to capture climate change in a picture. We have many, many photos of a polar bear on an ice shelf, but that doesn't give us the same connection as the stuff we see in our recycling bin every day.

[Anouk]

Wow, I actually never thought of that. Honestly, it kind of goes back to this idea that if you see a yogurt in a clay pot and a yogurt in a plastic pot, you're going to think, oh yeah, plastic is bad. While clay has this idea of like, oh, it's natural. Yeah, it's probably better for the environment.

[Shelley Miller]

Yeah, yeah. So consumers often think that plastic has the greatest environmental impact of any other material. It turns out that particularly if we're looking at a climate perspective on the amount of carbon emissions that materials have, plastic generally has a lower carbon footprint than other packaging materials.

[Garrett Graham]

And so you, as a very well informed, conscientious consumer, you're at the grocery store, you have a choice between a yogurt that comes in a plastic container and a yogurt that comes in a terracotta container, which would you feel better about picking up on a random Tuesday?

[Shelley Miller]

So I would say that if we're just talking about yogurt, it would be buying yogurt in bulk that you're going to eat in a plastic container. And so that both reduces the total amount of plastic per serving of yogurt and has a lower packaging impact.

[PJ Vogt]

Interesting. Yeah, but it's tricky if you're trying to say that your product is valuable and like, considered in a delicacy. Bulk plastic container is kind of working against your messaging.

[Garrett Graham]

It doesn't scream up market. Yeah, but, but it just turns out that if you get into the nitty gritty of the environmental trade offs here, like the thing that doesn't look environmentally friendly, it doesn't have the aesthetic of environmentalism, oftentimes can be more environmentally friendly. But, but this is an important but. Shelley goes on to say that this whole conversation we're having about packaging kind of misses the point entirely.

[Shelley Miller]

When we think about things that have the greatest environmental impact, we often focus on packaging. And so that's the stuff we throw out at the end of the day. And we tend to say, oh, look at all this packaging. And that's the biggest environmental impact that I have because I have to throw out all this packaging. What people don't realize is it's the thing inside the package that has a much greater environmental impact than the Package itself. Certainly in the case of food, the food that we're eating has a much greater environmental impact than the packaging it comes from.

[Garrett Graham]

She says Plastics, typically less than 10% of the total environmental impact of the food product that you're consuming. The food itself. Far more important to whether or not you're actually making a sustainable decision.

[PJ Vogt]

What's the carbon footprint of yogurt?

[Garrett Graham]

This is a good question, and this invites a whole lot of other questions on the other side of it. But what she's saying is that packaging is kind of a red herring. And also, like law firm mayor's marketing is kind of encouraging you to follow that red herring. Like, they're not saying, look how sustainable our yogurt is, they're saying, look how sustainable our packaging is. Which is another reason for me to at least believe that this is primarily a marketing decision.

[PJ Vogt]

You're with the teenagers at this point.

[Garrett Graham]

I'm with the teenagers. And also the funny thing is that La Familiere's yogurt, which is the thing actually driving whether or not it's a more sustainable option than its competitors, seems to be pretty environmentally friendly. And there's a couple reasons for that. One is that the company operates on a kind of make it where you sell it principle, meaning the company's two biggest markets, France and the U.S. the dairy is produced and processed locally in both of those countries. So you're not adding a bunch of transport miles inside that part of the supply chain.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[Garrett Graham]

Which is going to lower the carbon footprint that's mostly invisible to the consumer. But also, at least in France, where this data is public, La Frontier is sourcing its dairy from small local farms with an average of only 35 cows. And farms like these, if they're using certain agricultural practices, they, they could be better for the environment than large scale dairy farms.

[PJ Vogt]

Although what I've always been told is that if you wanted to put a huge dent in climate change, just like our reliance on cows as a food input because of the methane they produce is hugely bad for the environment. And so the fact that they're using cows at all is kind of a problem. Although it's a yogurt company, they're gonna use cows.

[Garrett Graham]

Yeah, you could eat non dairy yogurt. And this is kind of the quality of this kind of sustainability conversation. It's a hall of mirror. Like, being human is bad for the environment. And all sorts of decisions we make inside of being human are also bad for the environment. So, like, yes, you could say, I no longer eat full dairy Yogurt, I eat oat milk, yogurt, or whatever else is out there. And that would be better for the environment, and you wouldn't have to have this conversation at all.

[PJ Vogt]

But this is the conversation we've chosen.

[Garrett Graham]

But this is the thing I hadn't understood when the teacher David first posed the question. Like, he wasn't just asking about the packaging, he was asking about all the difficult ethical choices involved.

[PJ Vogt]

Right.

[Garrett Graham]

Which is actually something that teenagers like thinking through. And I think, as Remi and Anouk grasped that, this question had become their question too.

[Anouk]

Thank you so much for your time. Again, honestly, you have no idea how far this has taken us from just a stupid little yogurt question. So thank you so much for your time.

[Shelley Miller]

It is an absolutely fantastic question, and you guys are asking exactly the right questions.

[David Freeman]

Okay, skeleton crew.

[Garrett Graham]

Hi.

[Charlotte Marchand]

Hello, sir.

[David Freeman]

All right, so I'm gonna ask for.

[Garrett Graham]

About 10 minutes of your attention again. Here's the teacher, David Freeman.

[David Freeman]

We have something of an answer to the grim Yoga Question of 2024. Romine and Anouk are gonna tell you a little bit about what we've been up to. You guys want to come up front? And yes, I want pasta.

[Garrett Graham]

We were in the same classroom Shruti and I visited months prior. I never said that Romeo and Anuk seemed, and I'd never actually seen this side of them, a little nervous. Speak in front of the class.

[Anouk]

So. And now we are back to the last CDM class of the year. Ever not. Well, not ever. There's gonna be class next year. And so, yeah, I think this has confirmed a lot of our initial theories. So on how thing. It's a brand thing, brand DNA thing. And also a marketing decision over sustainably, maybe.

[Garrett Graham]

And yeah, and Romy and Anouk just walked the class through the steps of their reporting everything we had done along the way.

[Romy]

So Mr. Freeman brought us this question back in like, November, December. It's been a long time.

[Garrett Graham]

They talked about all the people we.

[Anouk]

Interviewed, the head of sales and marketing at fmlus.

[Garrett Graham]

They broke down all the complicated conclusions we had drawn.

[Anouk]

But she also mentioned a very important, important point, which was that what's inside the packaging matters much more than what than the packaging itself.

[Garrett Graham]

And of course, they shared their marketing advice for La Frontiere.

[Anouk]

I feel like they're kind of missing the point in a way, because they're really advertising the sustainability aspect of their pots when really they should be doing the same thing. But for the yogurt, because we just not proved. But we're able to question the Fact that clay pots are not maybe sustainable. But we all know that locally produced food, food, which is what they do, is good for the environment. So if they wanted to kind of pitch this climate aspect of it, they should probably focus on the yogurt.

[David Freeman]

Any. Anybody else have any follow up questions? Just while.

[Garrett Graham]

While we're here, this is your last.

[David Freeman]

Last chance to interrogate a dairy product. Good.

[Garrett Graham]

Cool.

[David Freeman]

All right. Excellent.

[Garrett Graham]

And with that homework assignment complete, the stupid little yogurt question was officially done. Chapter eight, Graduation. So I should say, as sometimes happens on the show, months passed while we slowly worked on the story. And months in the life of an adult, not such a big deal. But for these teenagers, it meant that we would meet up occasionally as their life was speeding up pretty quickly. In this case, towards graduation and the life that followed after Romy did end up finishing her big research project on morphine addiction. She's about to head to the Lund School of Economics in the fall. Anouk's finishing up high school in Paris and is going to head to a French university in the fall.

[Romy]

See the engraving on the side?

[Anouk]

It's very difficult to open.

[Romy]

Yeah, it is.

[Garrett Graham]

But the last time we got together in person in New York, I brought in a couple pots of La Familiere for them to taste.

[Anouk]

I mean, orange blossom. Does that mean orange?

[Garrett Graham]

I think there's a kind of honey that's orange blossom.

[Anouk]

Oh, yeah. There's no orange on it.

[Romy]

Still American. It would be like yellow. Yeah. So we just opened the yogurt.

[Anouk]

There is indeed yogurt in there.

[Garrett Graham]

This is the final step in the investigation. Do you guys have anything else to say about yogurt?

[Anouk]

Nope, just enjoy.

[Romy]

Pretty good. Yeah, it's actually. It's good. I. It's good.

[Anouk]

I agree, unfortunately.

[Garrett Graham]

What do you mean, unfortunately?

[Anouk]

I don't know.

[Garrett Graham]

I want.

[Anouk]

I wanted to be more like, not like completely convinced, you know, I didn't want to be convinced by it.

[Romy]

But like, it's not amazing.

[Anouk]

Yeah, the texture is amazing.

[Romy]

It's. Yeah, I don't think I. The flavor is really good. I mean, I'm not a big yogurt person, so maybe that's just me, but for a yogurt enthusiast, it would probably be good.

[PJ Vogt]

Garrett Graham, he's Search Engine's senior producer. Big thanks this week to David Freeman and the Lyce Francais de New York for inviting us into their classroom. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey. It was created by me, PJ Vogt and Shruti Pinamaneni. This episode was fact checked by Claire HYMAN. Theme, original composition and mixing by Armin Bazarian. Additional production support on this episode from Hazel May, Brian and Sean Merchant. Our intern is Oscar Noxon. If you'd like to support our show and get ad free episodes, zero reruns and some additional audio, please consider signing up for Incognito Mode. You can learn more about Incognito Mode at Search Engine Show. Our Executive producer is Leah Rees Dennis and thanks to the rest of the team at Odyssey, Rob Morandi, Craig Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gaynor, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schaeff. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at uta. Follow and listen to Search Engine for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.

[Romy]

SA.