Search Engine – "Unlocked: The State of Search Engine 2025"

Date: December 12, 2025
Host: PJ Vogt
Guests/Team: Shruti Haldea (Editor), Garrett Robinson (Producer), Emily Maltaire (Associate Producer)
Description:
For the first time, the Search Engine team unlocks one of their annual listener “board meetings,” providing a transparent look at their independent podcast’s health, growth, challenges, and direction—while answering listener questions and reflecting on the state of audio in the evolving Internet.

Episode Overview

This special episode offers a candid, insider’s view of Search Engine’s “board meeting” for paid supporters, where host PJ Vogt and the core team discuss the past year’s triumphs and tribulations, their vision for the show amidst a rapidly shifting Internet landscape, and detailed performance metrics. The format is a mix of presentation, reflection, and open Q&A, all reflecting Search Engine’s core mission: helping listeners navigate a confusing world by answering smart, challenging questions about technology, the Internet, and modern life.

Main Themes & Purpose

• Transparency in Independent Podcasting: The Search Engine team provides a thorough, “behind-the-scenes” breakdown of finances, growth, production challenges, and strategy.
• The Internet’s Changing Landscape: Candid discussion about the dominance of video and short-form algorithms, and the difficulty of making “audio-only” thrive in 2025.
• Evolving Mission: Reaffirmation of a commitment to thoughtful, long-form audio storytelling that serves people—not algorithms—and tackles how to live with and improve the Internet.
• Community Support & Gratitude: Deep thanks to the paid subscribers whose support keeps the show going against tough odds.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Openness About The State of the Show

• PJ reflects on the annual tradition of the “board meeting”—a live event with supporters, modeled after a tech startup check-in, but done with transparency and humor (04:34).
• Emphasizes how vital listener support is: “A third of our budget right now comes directly from you, our listeners, our paid subscribers, the people who are in this room.” (15:46)
• The board meeting format is usually exclusive to supporters, but this episode is unlocked as a “special holiday occasion.” (03:36)

2. The “Vast Wasteland”—Then and Now

• PJ opens with a memorable analogy from former FCC commissioner Newton Minow:

  “When the Internet is good, there’s nothing better. When it’s bad, there’s nothing worse... The Internet today, obviously, is our vast wasteland.” (04:34-05:09)

• Draws parallels with early TV’s “vast wasteland” and today’s Internet, noting that “we’ve actually entered into our version of that problem from the 1960s: we’re being given something worse than what a lot of people actually want.” (05:23)

3. Podcasting in the Shadow of Video

• Explains the challenges in securing contracts as podcast networks anticipate a declining market for audio.

  “There was an expectation that if we were willing to [go to video], it would unlock more money. The money in video right now seems to be even bigger than the money that floated around podcasting a decade ago.” (09:21)

• Candidly admits ambitions (“there was a week not too long ago where I just lost sleep naming large numbers in my head at night...”), but resists chasing funding without a real vision (10:19).
• Commitment to maintaining Search Engine as an “audio podcast,” despite lucrative offers to pivot to video:

  “We don’t want to take a bunch of somebody else’s money without a clear view of a path to making something we think is great.” (11:23)

4. Clarity on Content Philosophy

• Rejection of short-form content as “just not how our team thinks.” Belief in long-form, nuanced stories and conversations:

  “We want to make stuff for people, not algorithms.” (13:17)

• Nonetheless, they are open to side video experiments outside the main show.

5. The Importance of Listener Questions

• Reveals the show’s north star:

  “We believe our listeners are looking for smart, challenging conversations about how to push past where we are, towards the Internet we want—beyond the wasteland.” (14:40)

• The biggest episode of the year was “How Do I Use My Phone Less Without Meditation or Self Discipline”—a data point about audience needs and anxieties. (14:08, 19:34)

Metrics & Performance

(Data presented by Garrett Robinson)

Growth & Downloads

• 2025 showed “modest show growth” in an extremely tough audio market (17:40).
• Fewer episodes but higher per-episode numbers:
  • 2024: ~250,000 per episode (over 2 months)
  • 2025: ~280,000 per episode—a growth of ~30,000 listeners/episode (18:35)

Top Episodes of 2025

• #1: “How to Stop Being So Phone Addicted” (Interview with a reporter)

• #2: “The Dubai Chocolate Theory of the Internet” (Conversation with Ryan Broderick)

• #3–5: “The Dave & Buster’s Anomaly” (reported), “Are Microplastics Really a Problem?” (reported), “The Stupid Little Yogurt Question” (Garrett’s report) (19:31–20:20)

  PJ: “What is exciting is I really love that the show is a hybrid... both conversation and investigation.” (19:34)

Advertisers & Revenue

• Repeat sponsorships and returning advertisers are a marker that "maybe we're doing something right." (20:40–21:12)
• About 2.5% of listeners are paid Incognito Mode supporters, comprising a “significant chunk” of the budget. (28:16)

Production Pain Points Addressed

1. Studio Space:
   • Finally resolved, recording in a new dedicated studio together. (22:03)
2. Short-form Video/Social:
   • Limited progress, but a video experiment with Track Star and TikTok for “Dave & Buster’s Anomaly” helped boost downloads modestly. (22:07)
3. Team Size:
   • Hired Emily Maltaire as associate producer; use some freelancers, increasing capacity and energy. (23:12)
4. Growth Strategies:
   • Word of mouth is vital (“organically as people recommend it”), but recognize new listeners are harder to reach now. Considering more cross-promotions and short-form teasers tailored for algorithm-driven platforms, but with intention and quality. (23:54–25:54)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Resisting the Lure of Video (PJ, 11:23):

  “If there was a way where we could figure out how to make something that makes me feel the way Search Engine does, but in video, I would not be against it... But we said no this time because we don’t know how to get there from here.”

• On Independent Creative Work (PJ, 14:40):

  “We are unhappy with the current Internet. Our show is optimistic and curious. We do not like to complain. We try to help. And for us, that means that in this next year we’re going to work on stories that dig into questions about how to live on this Internet and how to improve this Internet.”

• On Community’s Role (PJ, 53:00):

  “We are counter trend right now. We are making an audio show with listener support. We may as well be, like, in the 1970s. And we are... aware of how lucky we are, and thank you for creating that luck.”

• On Podcast Growth (PJ, 23:54):

  “…One strategy for growth is just like, you try to do great, high impact stuff. And that's the type of thing where somebody... says, 'You have to listen to this episode. I learned something. It made me think, it made me feel.’”

Listener Q&A Highlights

Episode Titles and Optimization (32:44)

• Listener Jocelyn: Do you test episode titles?
• PJ: Officially no, but have changed titles post-release if an episode underperforms. When they do, "twice in the past year, like, two weeks later, we've gone back and just changed the title"—sometimes improving results.

Short-Form Clips to Attract New Audience? (34:13)

• Listener Jared: Thoughts on using podcast clips on social media to reach new listeners?
• PJ: Open to it, but only if clips are quality and set true expectations (“not something where it feels kind of slapped together...”). Wants clips to be “cool and entertaining if you encounter it on TikTok or Instagram Reels.” (34:35)

Using AI in Production (35:55)

• Listener Chris: Do you use AI in production/workflow?
• PJ: Yes, especially for transcription with Descript. Uses ChatGPT as a “first stop but not last stop” research tool, always double-checking facts due to risk of hallucinations. (36:12–37:51)

Unanswered or Failed Questions (38:01)

• Listener Dylan: What about questions you couldn’t answer?
• Shruti: “We are such a tiny show... if there's one really excellent moment in an interview, we will try our damnedest to save it.” Some topics remain shelved (Ticketmaster, volcanoes), others abandoned for ethical or reporting reasons (arson story). (38:39–41:47)

Reporting Process for Deep Dives (Colossus series) (41:57)

• Listener Ron: How long did you spend on big series vs. lighter episodes?
• Shruti: “Colossus” began over a year ago, with ~4-5 months concentrated work; big stories require much more reporting and coordination, and “supportive” short episodes help buy time for heavy lifts. (42:14–44:21)

Including Regular Segments Like “Yes Yes No”? (45:51)

• Listener Ryan Broderick: Considered a regular, recurring explainer/conversation segment?
• Shruti: Search Engine is conceptually “the explainer show”; the challenge is finding good questions and balancing high production values with sustainability. “There’s no such thing that we’ve ever really figured out that is just like an easy, replicable, always no production hitches type format.” (46:25–48:56)
• PJ: “We want to make this show so that it's sometimes hard, but not always hard... I think one of the things... that you might be pointing at is... you could feel like you were learning and hanging out at the same time... We've leaned away from that with Search Engine.” (48:56–51:47)

Special Newsflash:

• Berghain Series Optioned for Film: The two-part story about Berghain nightclub in Germany has been optioned for a feature film by Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers (26:04).

  “It’s such a bizarre, funny outcome... You throw [a story] into the vast void that is the Internet... sometimes the void is like, ‘we’re making a movie out of that one.’” –PJ Vogt

Concluding Remarks

Gratitude, Community, and Optimism:
PJ closes the meeting by reiterating the team’s gratitude and hopefulness, acknowledging that Search Engine is a “counter-trend” operation but one powered by a passionate, thoughtful audience.

“Thank you for funding us. We are here because of you... Thank you for creating that luck.” (52:48, 53:00)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |--------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:34 | Opening remarks; “Vast wasteland” parallel; state of Internet | | 08:44 | Challenges selling audio in a "video-first" Internet | | 13:10 | Philosophy: long-form over algorithmic short-form, commitment to audio | | 14:00 | Most-popular episode data: "How Do I Use My Phone Less" | | 17:12–20:20 | Presentation: download numbers, top episodes, advertiser details | | 23:54 | Growth ambitions: word-of-mouth, strategic outreach | | 26:04 | Berghain series optioned as a feature film | | 28:16 | Paid supporter stats and subscription platform migration | | 32:44 | Listener Q&A: episode title testing | | 34:13 | Listener Q&A: using podcast clips for social/short-form video | | 35:55 | Listener Q&A: AI usage in production | | 38:01 | Listener Q&A: stories the team couldn’t finish, why, and approach to “failed” story ideas | | 41:57 | Listener Q&A: process for reporting deep-dive vs. quick turnaround episodes | | 45:51 | Listener Q&A: segment regularity, "Yes Yes No"-style episodes | | 52:48–53:17 | Closing gratitude and team sign-off |

Tone & Style

• Conversational, candid, and self-aware, with a signature mix of humor and earnestness.
• The team's openness about financial and creative struggles sets the tone for a rare, intimate glimpse into the realities of independent podcasting in 2025.

For those who haven't listened:
This episode delivers a remarkably honest look at the state of modern independent podcasting, set against a rapidly evolving Internet. It’s filled with both optimism and sober realism, consistently connecting business realities, creative choices, and audience desires. The spirit is that of a close-knit group sharing inside knowledge and heartfelt gratitude, while plotting how to do meaningful work in a world tilted toward algorithms and video.

Listen if you want:

• Insight into podcast business realities
• Smart, hopeful talk about Internet culture
• A masterclass in creative transparency and honesty
• Warm, funny, and well-edited Q&A with thoughtful listeners

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