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- [00:00]
PJ Vogt
Hello everyone. This is our final rebroadcast of a classic episode before we return in August with some new ones for you. This episode is not like the other classics we've aired. It's more of a conversation episode. I really, really love this one. It's one of the episodes we have gotten the most listener emails about, and not just volume. Like some of the most deep, interesting reflections in our inbox from anything we publish. Which is crazy because we almost did not make this episode. I was worried the question was honestly too big, but we put it to the test that we sometimes put our questions to, which is just is this a real deeply held question? And for me, it really was, and I learned a lot from the person we asked it to and from the stories that the question elicited after these ads what's it like to believe in God? This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Quints. I am not chasing trends. I just want clothes that are comfortable, look good, and actually last. Which is why I like like Quince. Their staples are the kind of pieces that you'll just wear over and over, like their ultra breathable polos, crisp cotton shirts and lightweight pants that somehow work whether you're relaxing or heading out. But the best part is the price. Quint's cost about half of what you'd pay for the same quality from other brands because they work directly with top makers and skip the retail markups. And they only work with ethical factories that use premium fabrics and safe, responsible practices. So it's clothes you can feel good about, literally and ethically. I like their polos and pants. They're well made, they look sharp and they hold up wash after wash. Go to quince.comsearchengine for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.comsearChengine to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.comsearchengine this episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Bilt. If you're a renter, you should be taking advantage of Bilt. We rack up points on groceries, travel, and nearly everything else, so why not on one of your biggest monthly expenses? With Bilt, paying rent finally pays off. There's no cost to join, and just by paying rent, you unlock flexible points that can be transferred to your favorite hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and more. When you pay rent through Bilt, you unlock two powerful benefits. First, your rent now works for you. Second, you gain access to exclusive neighborhood benefits in your city. Things like extra points on dining out, complimentary post workout shakes, free mats or towels at your favorite fitness studios, and unique experiences that only BILT members can access. So if you're not earning points on rent, the question is, what are you waiting for? Start paying rent through BILT and take advantage of your neighborhood benefits by going to joinbuilt.com search that's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com search when I was a kid, I believed in God, the Christian Big Guy in the sky God. My family wasn't hardcore about it, but we went to church on Sundays. When we kids resisted, we were bribed with donuts. I found Sunday school to be mainly confusing. I understood the concepts of God and Jesus, but I remember having a lot of questions about the Holy Ghost, this character whose backstory the teachers never seemed to want to fill in. But I believed in God. I prayed every night. I prayed for a long list of everyone I hoped God would protect. Really, everyone I knew. My family, my friends, relatives, the souls of pets who had died. I couldn't fall asleep until I had prayed. Always the same prayer every night until I turned 15. When I was 15, something terrible happened to someone I loved. After that, I only prayed that this one person would be safe. A month later, the same terrible thing happened to them again. And after that, I mostly stopped praying. At first I think I was pretty angry. But the anger went away. And then when it was gone, it just felt easier for me to live in a world where everything didn't happen for a reason. A world where when someone I knew got hurt, I didn't have to look for a lesson in it or imagine it as part of a plan. I kept getting older. I didn't think about God very much. But a couple years ago I had a funny experience. I was in the desert with a friend and I had this feeling I'd never had before. It lasted for about a minute, just this sense, like a physical sense, that the world might just be a shadow of a different world, a place that was more real or more true. It lasted for about one full minute, and then it passed. I did not rush off to start a new religion or join an old one. I took what had happened with a grain of salt. But I also didn't discard it. It just left me with new questions. I know I'm not allowed to do a podcast called Is God Real? But I did want to try to understand what faith feels like to the people who have it. That question has really been sticking with me. I think I'll probably ask it a lot in the future to different people of different faiths. But recently I found one person who would let me pester them about it. Do you want headphones or no headphones?
- [05:44]
Zvika Krieger
I don't think I need headphones.
- [05:45]
PJ Vogt
I might do no headphones too. Shruti. Is that okay with you?
- [05:47]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah, I'm listening.
- [05:49]
PJ Vogt
Tell me what you had for breakfast today.
- [05:53]
Zvika Krieger
For breakfast today I had a smoked salmon, avocado toast.
- [05:58]
PJ Vogt
This is Vika Krieger. How do I describe this person we met recently? He leads a progressive Jewish spiritual community in Berkeley called Hokmad Halev. I really enjoyed talking to him, and I got the sense I could ask him a bunch of invasive questions about his faith, that I could ask him about God. Like I was a kid who'd never smoked weed, who wanted to know what weed was like, and that these questions would not offend him. So I invited him to search engine headquarters to ask one of those no questions too big. So my plan today, like this sort of roadmap I'm imagining for this conversation, I want to talk about your early life. I want to ask you about what your relationship to faith has been like, how it's changed, how you were dragged kicking and screaming into Rabidom. Rabidom.
- [06:44]
Zvika Krieger
Rabadent.
- [06:45]
PJ Vogt
Rabadent. And then I want to see if I can get a sense of, like, how it feels to believe. As someone who doesn't particularly believe.
- [06:52]
Zvika Krieger
I brought one of my favorite books on the topic. Oh, really? So that you can see the title.
- [06:57]
PJ Vogt
Like Catching Water in a Gnat.
- [06:59]
Zvika Krieger
It's a book about how to describe God. Oh, really? Yeah. So it's like, this is the title.
- [07:03]
PJ Vogt
That's great. Okay, so we're doing something impossible today. Yeah. Okay. So can you just tell me about your life before you decide to become a rabbi? Like, even, like, as a kid, did you believe in God?
- [07:16]
Zvika Krieger
Well, so I grew up in Los Angeles primarily, and I would say I definitely believed in a version of God as a kid for sure. That sounds not too different from the version of the God that you described growing up. Even though I grew up Jewish, and so I grew up Orthodox, which means, like, on the very observant and very traditional end of the Jewish spectrum. And my parents got married when they were very young, like 19, early 20s. Divorced a year later. And I was born in that one year period.
- [07:48]
PJ Vogt
Oh, wow.
- [07:48]
Zvika Krieger
And my mom stayed in la and my dad moved out and eventually landed in Israel. And so my mom is what maybe you would just call, like, regular Orthodox or, like, centrist Orthodox, and my dad is ultra Orthodox. Or you call, like, Haredi or Hasidic, like, where they. With the. The hat and the beard and the garb and all of that. And so.
- [08:09]
PJ Vogt
So, like, Williamsburg Orthodox.
- [08:11]
Zvika Krieger
Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. And so, I mean, there's nuances, but, you know, lost on people.
- [08:16]
PJ Vogt
What are the nuances?
- [08:17]
Zvika Krieger
Well, I think there's, like, different. Like, the garb may look the same, but I think there's, like, different theologies around it within those communities, but subtle. And so I grew up primarily in la, and when I was younger, I would go back and forth between that sort of LA Orthodox world and then the ultra Orthodox world with my dad. And so those were, like, the formative experiences of my childhood, particularly when it came to religion. But, like, my life was religion because I lived in this insular Orthodox community.
- [08:49]
PJ Vogt
So you're in Los Angeles, but it's like a very strict upbringing. Like a strict religious upbringing.
- [08:53]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah. Like, you know, only eat kosher food, which means that, like, you can only eat in restaurants that are, like, certified kosher. I don't think I knew a non Jewish person until I went to college.
- [09:03]
PJ Vogt
Oh, wow.
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Zvika Krieger
Like, I, you know, kept strict Shabbat, which means for one day out of the week, no electricity, no money, no phones, no screens, no driving, you know, borderline Amish, I would say.
- [09:19]
PJ Vogt
And is it, like, I wanna say, excuse my ignorance, but if I say that, I'm gonna have to say it so many times in this interview. So just as a blanket consideration, please excuse my ignorance. Like, you know, I said, like, Williamsburg Orthodox, like, in Brooklyn, where I live, it's sort of this thing that people always find remarkable when they move here, that Williamsburg Brooklyn, which has a reputation as being both, like, a hipster neighborhood, but also an expensive neighborhood, there's one portion of Williamsburg that is just, like, Orthodox Jewish. And when you are driving, all of a sudden you just, like, hit it. And it's like a lot of people in the same community living the same way. Was it like that in Los Angeles, where you're in a distinct community where everyone's sort of following practices? Or is it more dispersed?
- [09:58]
Zvika Krieger
I would say it's a little bit more dispersed, but there's a couple neighborhoods where you're, like, driving through Beverly Hills, you're on Rodeo Drive, you're passing by Prada, and then you take a left turn onto Pico, and then all of a sudden, all the storefronts are in Hebrew, all the women are walking around with wigs and long skirts. You know, it's so, it's, it's got that Williamsburg esque vibe, but it's a little bit less in your face. And I would say, and I would say this probably pretty formative to who I am is that people are like, oh my God, you grew up orthodox? And I say, yeah, but I grew up LA Orthodox.
- [10:31]
PJ Vogt
And what does that mean?
- [10:32]
Zvika Krieger
So I think there was like a little bit more permeability, right? Like in Williamsburg, you'd think, like, if a kid grew up in Williamsburg, it's like, oh, they've got this kind of like super austere orthodox upbringing, but you got hipsters, you got clubs, coffee shops. You'd think that some of that would permeate in. But in, in Williamsburg and other of these, like, ultra orthodox neighborhoods in New York, the gates are pretty high. Like, you don't really get much of that culture in. Whereas where I grew up, like, I definitely, you know, by the time I got to high school, I would go out to like, punk shows on Hollywood Boulevard. I would go to raves out in like, the deserts around la. I would go surfing on weekends with my friends. And so none of that would happen if I grew up in Williamsburg.
- [11:13]
PJ Vogt
And when you're experiencing Pong shows and raves, particularly, like, was that okay? Or was it like you're. You're sort of like stepping out?
- [11:21]
Zvika Krieger
You know, when it comes to Orthodox Judaism, maybe religion more broadly, there's sort of two pieces. There's like the letter of the law, like, what are you allowed to do? What are you not allowed to do? And then there's like the cultural pieces of, like, what is culturally acceptable and culturally layered on top of it. And so there's nothing wrong with going to a punk show according to the laws of Orthodox Judaism, but it may be frowned upon from like, a culturally conservative perspective. And I think in la, you know, there's still a lot of that judginess, but there's a little bit more of an acceptance of okay, like, you can sort of play in both worlds. So, like, I would go to a punk show, but I'd always keep my head covered. Probably didn't wear a yarmulke to a punk show, but, like, wear a baseball hat or a beanie or something like that. Or, like, I wouldn't eat anything there because the food there wasn't kosher. Or if I was out all night partying at a rave, like, I would make sure to be back in time for sunrise so that I could Pray the, like, morning prayers.
- [12:18]
PJ Vogt
And did you feel like you were moving between worlds? Did those things feel cohesive to you?
- [12:23]
Zvika Krieger
I think that I definitely had a little bit of sense of subversion. Like, oh, look at me. I'm a badass. I'm, like, doing these things. But I also. I don't know. I can't quite put my finger on why, but I felt a sense of integration. I was just like, okay, like, there's no paradox here between, like, doing this, you know, being going to a rave and being an Orthodox Jew. And I kind of reveled in my ability to move between those worlds and not feel attention.
- [12:52]
PJ Vogt
I realized the question I meant to ask you really is like. And you've answered it, but was, did you feel ashamed? And it sounds like you didn't feel ashamed. It felt, like, exciting or normal or correct.
- [13:01]
Zvika Krieger
I mean, I think that. I mean, I definitely was, like, a type A overachiever in high school. And I think that part of my ability to move between those worlds is, like, I was, like, really hardcore on the Jewish front, right? And so I was, like, super into everything. I was, like, in the top Talmud class, like, studying the best freaking ancient Aramaic legal codes that, you know, you can imagine. I was, like, valedictorian of my school and, like, all of that. And I was, like, bleached hair and baggy janko jeans and, like, you know, as one does in the 90s. And, like, I think there were people whose system would overload at the contradictions and, like, would look at me and be like, I can't fit this guy in a box. And I was just kind of like, whatever. Like, I like doing all these things, and there's nothing mutually exclusive. And I think there's something also interesting about, like, growing up Orthodox in that I, you know, I learned fluent Hebrew from the time I was a kid. I learned Aramaic, and I was studying the text, the Torah, the. All the legal codes from a young age in a way that, like, I had direct access to them. So, like, I didn't need a gatekeeper. So, like, someone could be like, you're not allowed to do that. And I'll be like, show me where it says that in the text, right? Or I'm going to open up the Talmud and, like, find the place where it talks about this and be like, well, doesn't say that in here, right? And so I think that for a lot of people who don't have that direct access, they need it mediated through a gatekeeper. And generally, those gatekeepers have a culturally conservative agenda. And so, like, oh, no, you're not allowed to do that. And I'm like, well, doesn't say it in there, so I'm going to do it.
- [14:36]
PJ Vogt
Right.
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Zvika Krieger
So there's kind of. There's this quote I think is Audre Lorde, who said, you can't dismantle the master's house with the master's tools. I'm going to be really embarrassed if it's not Audrey.
- [14:46]
PJ Vogt
I think that's right.
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Zvika Krieger
And like, I kind of was like, well, like, I guess maybe sometimes you can. Like, I had the tools, the masters gave me the tools to dismantle the house.
- [14:55]
PJ Vogt
And so, okay, so at this point, you're like, you're able to live in different worlds. And the God that you're imagining is the sort of, like, classic God, like, God in the sky, watching the judge.
- [15:09]
Zvika Krieger
Old man on a throne in the sky, long beard, kind of wagging his finger at you, recording all of your good and bad deeds in a book. And you're praying to this person just like you were sharing. And so, yeah, that was definitely the God that I believed in as a kid.
- [15:24]
PJ Vogt
And what was your relationship like to that God?
- [15:27]
Zvika Krieger
You know, it's funny because people assume that if you're Orthodox or if you go up really religious, you have a very close relationship with God.
- [15:35]
PJ Vogt
Yeah.
- [15:35]
Zvika Krieger
And that was not my experience growing up, because there was so many rules about what it meant to be an observant Jew. Right. In terms of everything. About what you eat, literally, how you get out of bed, which shoe you put on first. First it's the right foot and then it's the left foot. And there's like, all these things. Well, this is like, you know, the Jewish version of it.
- [15:56]
PJ Vogt
And.
- [15:56]
Zvika Krieger
And now as an adult, I can see how much of it is based in, like, post Holocaust trauma ocd. I remember always growing up being like, this feels like ocd. And now I'm just like, oh, yeah, that's like, not a coincidence. Like, when people spend so much of their life having their agency taken away from them and, like, being abused and traumatized, the way they deal with that is by creating these incredibly specific rituals for every aspect of your life. You've got to wake up, and before you do anything, you have to wash your hands. And there's a certain way that you do it. Two scoops on the left, two scoops on the right. And then there's a prayer that you say before you do anything. And then which shirt sleeve do you put on first? Which pant leg do you Put on first. And so like, and it's for every part of your day, like, literally every step you take, you're thinking about, okay, what's the Jewishly prescribed way of doing this? And it's almost like there's no room for God. And like, yes, in theory you're doing all these things because you think that that's what God commanded you to do and that's what's gonna make God happy. But you almost forget about that. Cause like, you're just so focused on all the rules that you're keeping. And so my life was deeply infused with Judaism. Like, every moment of my day was infused with Judaism, but God was like, weirdly absent, except for this like, hovering background figure that's like keeping a tally of, did I put the right foot off the bed when I woke up in the morning?
- [17:17]
PJ Vogt
And so when you said college is when you start to kind of split somewhat from the exact rituals and beliefs of your childhood, you know, I think.
- [17:28]
Zvika Krieger
It was like a slow progression. Like, I'd say, to this day, I'm still quite traditionally observant. And a lot of the rituals that I kept back then, I still keep today. For example, like, I keep a pretty strict Shabbat from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Like, I don't use my phone, I don't use the Internet, I don't drive, I don't use electricity, I don't use money. So I do a lot of things from when I was growing up, but the intentionality behind it is much different. And the relationship of that act to God is very different. And definitely going to college was a big part of that. I mean, I grew up in this insular world. Then there's like sort of tradition in my community that after you go to high school, you go spend a gap year in Israel studying in Yeshiva, Jewish study school, institution, seminary. And so I went to Israel for a year and I just literally from like 7:30 in the morning to like 10:00 clock at night, I just study Talmud all day long, which is like obscure Jewish, Aramaic, legal codes.
- [18:25]
PJ Vogt
I can't imagine studying anything that much, that long.
- [18:28]
Zvika Krieger
It was, it was, it was when I started drinking coffee for the first time for sure. But like, I mean, it, it, it does boggle my mind when I look back to being like, holy shit, how did I spend so many hours a day studying what these, you know, first century, second, third century rabbis were saying about your ox gourd, My ox, and who pays who what, under what conditions? I was like, as like an 18 year old.
- [18:52]
PJ Vogt
And what were you getting out of, like, as 18 year old, you, like, what is happening in your mind while you're doing that?
- [18:58]
Zvika Krieger
I think part of it was like, it was just what was done in my community. It is very intellectually stimulating. Right. How come this is like, for the, for the. We all have those friends that like, graduated college and were so excited to go to law school because they wanted to study torts, you know, and those big. I don't even know what they're called, but those like weird leather bound books that have like all the legal theories in them. Like, that's probably the closest parallel where you basically. The Talmud is basically a transcription of esoteric debates and arguments between rabbis. And one rabbi will put forward a position, another will argue it, and they're basically using the Torah as like a proof test. Like, well, I think the Torah says this. It's like, no, I'd interpret the Torah this way. And so there's something kind of intellectually satisfying about like deconstructing an argument following a debate and also doing it in ancient Aramaic in a book that has no punctuation. And so like, there's something cool almost about like decoding these texts that makes.
- [19:54]
PJ Vogt
It so it's like, it's very intellectually stimulating. And it's like the Netflix algorithm of experiences would be like, for fans of debate club and arguing.
- [20:02]
Zvika Krieger
Absolutely. Yeah, totally. Yes, that's exactly right. But I will say that for me, and I don't want to judge other people, but like, for me, there was exactly zero spiritual fulfillment in that, in that task. But like, like this idea of like spiritual fulfillment, like, that wasn't really part of my vocabulary growing up. I mean, it's probably not part of most teenagers vocabularies, but this idea that like religion would be like nourish in some way, that wasn't why we did it.
- [20:27]
PJ Vogt
Right.
- [20:28]
Zvika Krieger
And so going to college, like leaving my world all of a sudden, being surrounded by like other kinds of Judaism, more like mystical versions of Judaism, more embodied forms of Judaism, I was just kind of like, huh, okay, like, that is interesting to me. And like being able to pause and ask questions of like, why are we doing this and who are we doing this for? And like, definitely the questioning started then and continued well into my twent.
- [20:57]
PJ Vogt
And so then what does that period of questioning look like?
- [20:59]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah, I mean, college again was like this interesting time. I went to Yale, which was like a total mind fuck for me, being this cloistered Orthodox Jewish boy who, you know, went to only orthodox Jewish schools, basically only new Orthodox Jewish people all of a sudden to a college campus where I was like, like, you know, and. And in my community, highbrow secular reading was People magazine.
- [21:24]
PJ Vogt
People didn't have, like, the New Yorker?
- [21:26]
Zvika Krieger
Oh, hell no. I never heard of the New Yorker until I went to college.
- [21:29]
PJ Vogt
But that's so weird. I mean, just to say, like, whatever. Different transmissions reach different people and places and mean different things.
- [21:35]
Zvika Krieger
But why People magazine stars just like us? That was my favorite part of People magazine. Like, the highbrow families had Newsweek.
- [21:45]
PJ Vogt
Okay.
- [21:46]
Zvika Krieger
But yeah, it was just like, not a very intellectual milieu. And so, like, anything that I learned was, like, books that I had read on my own. And then I went to college, and it was so embarrassing because there were so many words that I had never heard said out loud. And so, like, I'd only read them and I'd be in seminars with kids who went to, like, Exeter and Choate and, you know, all these, like, fancy prep schools. And I would, like, mispronounce words all the time, and people would always laugh at me.
- [22:13]
PJ Vogt
But I always feel like, just to defend people that mispronounce words, I'm always like, all that means is that you read a lot.
- [22:19]
Zvika Krieger
Totally. But I think there's like, something about, like, growing up in a cultural milieu where, like, people have intellectual conversations.
- [22:26]
PJ Vogt
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [22:27]
Zvika Krieger
Like, I thought the word panacea and panache were the same word.
- [22:31]
PJ Vogt
I can imagine that. Getting embarrassed at Yale.
- [22:33]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah. And so. But. But, you know, it was definitely like, my intellectual horizons were, like, totally broadened. But, like, I still prayed three times a day. I still studied Talmud with a friend, like, two hours a day. I still kept Shabbat and kosher. So, like, I had this sort of cultural mind blowing moment. But then I also, like, kind of kept doing my thing.
- [22:54]
PJ Vogt
Yeah. And it didn't. Again, it was like, you were able. I'm so used to hearing stories where the. A very familiar arc of a very familiar story for me is person grows up in cloistered, intense religious community. And then, you know, it's almost like every culture loves a conversion story into itself. And so, like, as a progressive intellectual type, we love the story of, like, I was very religious, but then I read the New Yorker and I. Blah, blah, blah, blah. But your story, the way you tell it is. I was very religious. I found more experiences. I found more things to read and think about, but I was able to bring with me where I came from in a way that didn't feel painful or confusing.
- [23:35]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah. And like, maybe partially I attribute it to my upbringing in la where there wasn't this like strict binary of like, either you're this way or you're this way. But it was this sense of like, if these practices are meaningful, you can keep doing them and do other things that don't conflict with those practices. Right, but have you ever heard of the concept called the second naivete?
- [23:54]
PJ Vogt
No.
- [23:54]
Zvika Krieger
It's this, this like French philosopher Paul Ricoeur. He kind of like traces a version of that arc that you just traced, but it's, it's got a slightly different twist to it, which is like the first naivete is like, you grow up and you learn about the God in the sky and you pray to this God to do good things for you, dah, dah, dah, dah. And then there's like a second phase which is like, it all comes crashing down and you have this realization or you learn like, holy shit, like all this is bullshit. Religion is constructed by all these people with nefarious agendas. Like, screw this. Then he has this thing called the second naivete, which is like, okay, like, yes, religion is invented by people. Like, yes, there is like no old man in the sky and there's still value in a lot of this stuff. Right? And I'm going to like, choose to believe a lot of this stuff in a way that like, is more suited to a grown up sensibility of like what exists and what doesn't exist. But I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like there's like a way that you can opt in to that world that sort of meets you post crash.
- [24:57]
PJ Vogt
Right? Like a way to not become one of those like Internet atheists that's like constantly being like, oh, the flying spaghetti monster or whatever, that can't imagine that the human desire for belief in something larger or a spiritual existence is anything but like a dumb trick played on dumb people by the people who would manipulate them, that there might be something valuable or real about that impulse even if you don't sign on to whatever you grew up with.
- [25:23]
Zvika Krieger
Totally. And like a lot of my 20s and 30s was about like updating my conception of God and then looking back on my life and the practices and the way I kind of live my life as an observant Jew and, and saying, okay, like, which of these still resonate, which of these don't resonate and like, what aligns with this conception? And actually like a lot of it does align.
- [25:44]
PJ Vogt
It's funny, as you talk about this stuff, one of the things that makes me realize is that in my existence as, like, you know, the identity categories I belong to or don't belong to or, like, flit in between, I'll have days where I don't know, like, in the last few years, I feel like I spend not a lot of time, but some amount of time being, like, you know, like, progressive, liberal, like, left, whatever, where I'm like, where do I. Where do I fit in here? Where don't I fit in here? Like, how much does it matter to know where I fit in here? Like, how much is a tribal question versus an intellectual one versus values, one. You've had to do that sort of internal maneuvering with faith.
- [26:21]
Zvika Krieger
Totally. Yeah. There's a famous rabbi who. Who said, like, the people I socialize with, I can't pray with, and the people I pray with, I can't socialize with.
- [26:29]
PJ Vogt
And you relate to that.
- [26:30]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah, and I think that I definitely relate to that. And I think that that's, like, to the extent that I quote, unquote, left orthodoxy, though I like to pretend that I haven't really left. Extent that I've left, it was actually more for, like, social reasons and that, like, the people in those communities tended to be more socially conservative, and that's politically conservative, and just, like, not into the kind of stuff that I was into, and tended not to be, like, particularly interested in the world, particularly interested in things beyond their sort of parochial bubble that they lived in. And then, like, I'd go hang out with, like, my cool friends who were, like, into all the things I was into, but they're just like, oh, religion. Like, that's weird. Like, why are you keeping Shabbat God? You know? And so I'd say that, like, that tension in my 20s is what kind of led me down into this spiritual leadership route. Because I was just like. I mean, there was still a long ways to go until I got there, but it was a sense of like, well, I don't fit in here. I don't fit in there. I guess I kind of got to create for myself what I want.
- [27:31]
PJ Vogt
Coming up after the break, before Zvika becomes ordained as a rabbi, we chart how being both spiritual and unusual can lead someone to perhaps the strangest professional path I've ever heard a person describe. That's after some maths. This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Framer hit Publish. Framer ships your site worldwide in seconds. While DIY website tools are everywhere, most fall short on design and performance. Framer changes that with a single user friendly platform that delivers developer level results without writing a single line of code. Static pages are out. Make your designs move and convert. With Framer it's free to start you can browse 700 pixel perfect templates or design from a fully blank canvas. Real time collaboration means your editor, means your writer, designer and marketer can all tweak the same page once. No version control Nightmares built in AI handles the heavy lifting under the hood you get responsive breakpoints, edge hosting, SSL SEO that works, a flexible CMS with inline editing and privacy friendly analytics. So long cookie banner Ready to build a site that looks hand coded without hiring a developer? Start free today@Famer.com Search Go to Framer.com Search to start building a website for free Framer.com Search this episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Harry's Staying well groomed takes the most reliable of hair and grooming tools, and Harry's is your trusted partner for making a good first impression. I'm an intermittent shaver. I'm a sometimes shaver. I got a set of Harry's razors and I am shaving slightly more often because it's comfortable and easy. They're really nice razors. Harry's offers German engineered blades made in their own factory that stay sharp longer and customizable delivery options for scheduled refills as low as $2 half of what you pay for other big brands. Get a five blade razor weighted handle, foaming shave gel and a travel cover for just 8 bucks plus a free gift@harrys.com search normally their trial set is $10, but right now you can get it for just 8 plus a free gift@harryl.com search that's our exclusive link. Harry's.com search for an $8 trial set and a free gift. I don't even know how to handle this in the context of an interview. One of the things I have to do is take complicated lives and simplify them in a way that is not untrue but is legible. And you've had such a interesting life path that I'm not. Can you give me what is your quickest, dirtiest pencil sketch of your professional life? From college to rabbi?
- [30:27]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah, I mean I'd say probably like the headline is adhd, but okay, the quickest, dirtiest sketch is, you know, graduate college, become a journalist, work in Newsweek in New York because I spoke Arabic, they send me to the Middle East. I become their Middle east correspondent, lived in Egypt and Lebanon for a couple years, moved to D.C. for the first time, work at the New Republic for a couple years, work at the Atlantic for a couple years, work as a writer, editor, all sorts of different things. Work at a Middle east think tank, work in the Defense Department, work at the State Department. And then John Kerry, who was the Secretary of State at the time, was like, hey, like, all this stuff is happening in Silicon Valley and, like, it's like, really affecting policy. And we don't have anyone whose job it is to, like, build relationships with Silicon Valley. And I was running the Innovation lab at the time at the State Department, and they're like, svika, do you want to go be our ambassador to Silicon Valley? And I was like, yeah, why not? Yeah. So I moved to California and did that for a little while. Then Trump got elected and I was like, fuck this, working for Trump. And so I taught at Stanford, so I studied design as an undergrad. So I went back and I taught in the design school at Stanford. And then I got hired by the World Economic Forum, like the Davos people, to set up a, like, hub for them in the Bay Area. Focused on, like, ethical tech, responsible tech. So I did that for a couple of years, and then Facebook hired me to be their first ever Head of Ethics, Director of Responsible Innovation.
- [32:04]
PJ Vogt
What was that one?
- [32:05]
Zvika Krieger
Like, you know, I. It's definitely the job title that gets the most snickers. And when they reached out to me, like when the recruiter first reached out to me, he referred to the job as chief Ethics Officer at Facebook. And I just. And I burst out laughing and I was like, this sounds like an Onion article. But, you know, eventually what came, and I spent a lot of time, like, talking to, like, all the people I'd be working with. I was like, okay, like, this actually sounds like it's legit, but I love the job, you know, despite all the sort of snickers, if you had it, like, they're like, oh, you did a really good job. It's like, yeah, okay, fair, you know, like, I didn't totally transform the business model there and, like, zero out any harm that was being caused in the product. But, like, I built like a 40 person team there and we reviewed hundreds of products before they were released. Actually, like pretty early in the product development process and we were able to sort of figure out or like, anticipate, like, how might these products harm people? And like, I found the engineers and the product managers to be quite like, well meaning and being like, oh, wow, like, we hadn't thought about this, right? It's not Their job to think about or it's not their mindset to think about. Like, you don't wake up every morning being like, how is this thing that I'm working on gonna harm people? Right, yeah. So like having a team that that is their job, like, it actually made it a lot easier.
- [33:21]
PJ Vogt
And so like you, again, forgive me if it's not you question, but like you're in a job that involves thinking through ethics and morality. The part of you that you would consult when you're trying to solve a problem there was it just like you yourself, were you thinking about, you know, Talmudic disputes about ox goring in Aramaic from many centuries ago? Like, how did your faith and your job doing moral reasoning for a tech company, Were they involved with each other?
- [33:53]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah, I'd just like walk into a meeting with Mark Zuckerberg, like open my Talmud and just be like, mark, it says it right here in the Talmud. Like, you gotta change the news speed algorithm. No, I mean, it's interesting because I think actually like I, when, when they recruited me, I'm just like, first of all, I just want to let you guys know that I'm not a very ethical person. We're like, that's okay, even better. But I'm not like a conceptual ethicist. I have no professional background in ethics. Right. I don't come with like frameworks for like ethical reasoning and things like that. But basically like the, the first thing that I really tried to impart to people was like, number one, like, it's generally not right versus wrong. Like, generally it's not like, you know, either we launch this product and it brings us lots of revenue and more clicks, but it might cause a genocide in Myanmar. You know, like, it's not like those types of trade offs. It's more like, hey, like we could do end to end encryption for all of our messaging, which is great for privacy. And everybody's like really being the drum on privacy. But that means we don't have access to any of the content in those messages. And there might be proliferation of all, you know, human trafficking and child pornography and terrorist extremist groups. So it's like that's a trade off. Like optimize for privacy or optimize for safety.
- [35:07]
PJ Vogt
Yeah.
- [35:08]
Zvika Krieger
And like being able to surface that and sort of frame in a way where it's like, what are we going to optimize for? And so it wasn't really my job to tell people what the right answer was, even though most people wanted me to just tell them they're like, what should we do? And I'm just like, well, like, let's actually frame up what the trade offs are and help you make an intentional decision about what you're going to prioritize.
- [35:30]
PJ Vogt
But it's funny, I mean, that does sort of sound like I have not often sought spiritual guidance in my life. And I'm not trying to say you were a spiritual leader at Facebook, although that's like a great movie idea, but more like you were doing what I've found people do, which is like, they. Rather than being like, here's what you should do, they'll say, here's what you might consider.
- [35:48]
Zvika Krieger
Well, it's interesting because of course, I had to be, like, very careful, like, not to, like, bring religion into the room with, you know, like, I'm not gonna, like, proselytize people, you know, but, like, I think there was this sense that it was spiritual work. And, like, people would often, like, jokingly call me, like, Facebook Rabbi. You know, they would just be like, hey, Rabbi, I need some advice, you know, on. On this stuff. And so, And I do think there is, like, a link between how I practice now as a rabbi and how I practiced, like, the responsible innovation work I did at Facebook, which is like, even now, like, in a spiritual leadership role. People come to me all the time and they're like, what should I do? You know, my husband's having dementia and. And I want to put him in a nursing home because I still want to live my life. Like, what should I do? And I'm like, it's not my job actually to tell you what the right thing to do is. It's like, I can help you frame up what values are at play here.
- [36:41]
PJ Vogt
Yeah.
- [36:41]
Zvika Krieger
I will walk beside you and give you some tools, give you the confidence to trust your own moral compass. But I'm not going to, like, loan you my moral compass.
- [36:51]
PJ Vogt
Yeah, but people want that.
- [36:52]
Zvika Krieger
Oh, totally. Yeah. Like, especially engineers. Just like, dude, like, we got. We got lines of code to write. Yes or no, what should we do?
- [37:00]
PJ Vogt
Did you ever just give them a straight yes or no?
- [37:02]
Zvika Krieger
No, no. But I think maybe it's also just something that is a part of my constitution and that, like, I just grew up around so many rabbis who just constantly told people what to do that I'm just like, I'm not. So I jam. Like, I'm not. I'm not here to tell people what to do.
- [37:19]
PJ Vogt
Okay, so Facebook ethicist.
- [37:22]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah.
- [37:23]
PJ Vogt
Then what happens?
- [37:25]
Zvika Krieger
So, like, I had these two. I like praying with these people. I like socializing with these people. But, like, I feel like there's nowhere where I can like, pray and be spiritual with the people who I actually like. So I just like started like, doing a lot of my own, like, pop up stuff, you know, like putting together, like, prayer services, like in my living room, in my backyard, just kind of like experimenting. And I'm like, I grew up orthodox, I know how to do this shit, you know, like, it's funny.
- [37:49]
PJ Vogt
It's also, you're taking the ethos of DIY scenes like punk and raves. You're like, we can just throw a show. We don't need an organization here.
- [37:56]
Zvika Krieger
And like, a lot of it, like, because also I spent a lot of my time in my 20s. I took like a little detour. I never, like, left Judaism. But like, meditation and mindfulness became really important to me because as I mentioned, I have very severe adhd. It's not just like my career is adhd. I have very severe adhd. And like, the only. And like, medication did not work for me. It gave me, like, horrendous headaches. And so the only thing that really worked for me was meditation. And so I got like, really into meditation in my 20s and like, mindfulness was really important to me. And like, embodiment became really important for me. I know that's kind of like.
- [38:31]
PJ Vogt
What do you mean when you say embodiment?
- [38:32]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah, it's kind of like a New Agey phrase. I live in Berkeley, so I like, translate. Yeah, I gotta translate like some of the lexicon. But like, I don't know, I'm. I'm guessing you can relate to this. But like, I spent a lot of time in my brain, right? A lot of time, like, thinking and mulling things over and da, da, da. And like, intellectually is like the way that I engage with the world mostly. And I just like, at a certain point realized that, like, that wasn't really serving me and that like, I needed. Not that I should stop doing that, as if that's even possible, but I need to spend more time, like, in my body, not just thinking all the time, but just experiencing and being and moving. And so meditation was really helpful for that. But I got really into dancing, which had always been part of my life. Starting with the, like, mosh pits in the punk scene and then moving into, like, the electronic music. All these embodiment things started just being a really important part of, like, my spiritual practice. But then I realized, like, hey, I want to, like, fuse all this together. Like, I've got the traditional parts of Judaism that still really speak to me. The ritual, the practices, the liturgy. And then I've got mindfulness and meditation and I've got embodiment. Like, how can we bring that all together? And part of it was also this learning journey that actually Judaism has. I mean, and by the way, so does Christianity and Islam. Like they have these ancient embodiment mindfulness traditions that have been sort of sanitized in a post enlightenment, sort of rationalist Western European world for Judaism and Christianity in particular. So I just kind of wanted to bring all these things together. And so I was like, ah, like I'm gonna like do stuff like this, you know, and in my living room. And like, I think there are like a lot of people who like grow up more progressive and they're kind of wary to do sort of radical things in a religious space because they're like, oh, well, that's not authentic and that's not real or that's not okay. And I'm just like, dude, I grew up in the Orthodox world. I know the emperor has no clothes, like over there also. Right. Orthodox Judaism is just as constructed as whatever we could construct as well. And so I think there is this conception, especially from people who grew up outside the Orthodox world, that Moses got the Torah, it's Mount Sinai, and then like passed it down and like basically was living as an Orthodox Jew. Like Moses had those like side locks and a black hat and a beard, you know, and then like Judaism had been practiced like that all the way down to Orthodox Jews today. And anything more progressive was like a deviation. But I guarantee you, if Moses came alive today watching an Orthodox synagogue, he'd be like, what the fuck is this? What religion is this? This is not the religion I got at Sinai.
- [41:02]
PJ Vogt
A few years ago, Svika started attending rabbinical school. His time there coincided with a chapter of personal crisis in his life. A divorce, burnout. He took a break from full time work to focus on parenting his child. And ultimately he'd end up in the job he has now leading services for a Jewish spiritual community in Berkeley.
- [41:22]
Zvika Krieger
Basically there was this community in Berkeley that was started 30 years ago. It's called Chochmat Halev, which means wisdom of the heart. And it started as a Jewish meditation center.
- [41:32]
PJ Vogt
Okay.
- [41:33]
Zvika Krieger
And it was a bunch of what we call bujus, Buddhist Jewish people. Yes.
- [41:37]
PJ Vogt
Okay.
- [41:38]
Zvika Krieger
Which there's a sizable population of bujus of Jews who were just like, oh, Judaism's like really not spiritual enough for me. I'm going to go to Eastern religion. Which was like Even though, like, Judaism has, like, a pretty long lineage of meditation and mindfulness practice, it's not. It was never mainstream in Judaism. It's certainly not in modern history. But there are practices that you can go back to. And so there was this movement of folks who wanted to, like, reclaim mindfulness and meditation and contemplative practices. And so they created this center. But it's been around for about 30 years, and it's slowly evolved into, like, being more of, like, a traditional synagogue. Don't tell anyone. Where they have, like, prayer services and bar mitzvahs and weddings and, like, things like that.
- [42:18]
PJ Vogt
So you ended up in a place where, even though you didn't want to be a rabbi in a synagogue, you're a spiritual leader who has now graduated rabbinical school in a spiritual community that has synagogue like, tendencies.
- [42:33]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah. Synagogue adjacent.
- [42:35]
PJ Vogt
But you feel like you have a practice that fits with your own contradictions or things that maybe don't feel like contradictions anymore, but perhaps.
- [42:42]
Zvika Krieger
Well, yes. And like, what I. I promised myself when I. When I. When I went to rabbinical school, but even more so when I took on this job, I promised myself that I would not have a rabbi Persona, that I would not have, like, my rabbi Persona and my, like, friend Persona or, like, private Persona. I know so many people who are in spiritual leadership who live sort of these double lives.
- [43:03]
PJ Vogt
Yeah.
- [43:03]
Zvika Krieger
I was like, I don't want to do that, and I don't have the energy for that. And, like, I don't think it's good for people. Like, I don't think it's good for the people in the community, and it's not good for me. So I was just like, I'm just gonna be myself, warts and all. And, like, if anything, like, I would like to be a role model for people to be like, hey, look, that guy who's up there on the stage, like, giving the sermon. Like, look how flawed he is. And he's up there on the stage, like, being a spiritual leader, that means he's, like, valuable and worthy as a person. And so if he can be up there doing that, like, I can also be lovable because of all my flaws and all the ways in which I fall short. And I'm still a work in progress and have not figured things out at all.
- [43:42]
PJ Vogt
But isn't it strange? I mean, look, I'm on the side of flawed people. Honesty, uncertainty. But even to me, it's surprising that, you know, people often go to spiritual places for answers when people are showing up with questions and you're like, the answer is, I don't know.
- [44:00]
Zvika Krieger
It's not just that I don't know. It's that, like, it is okay to have those questions. You don't actually need the answer to that question. It is okay to be living in this place of uncertainty and confusion and not knowing. And I want to, like, validate you for that. And, like, that is actually, I think, often more powerful than giving people the answers.
- [44:19]
PJ Vogt
You're saying that a question can be as valuable as an answer?
- [44:21]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah. And like, not knowing, like, I mean, so much of my personal practice has been releasing the expectation of knowing. And it's just like, oh, like, you're confused. That means you're right. Like, certainty is actually the wrong place to be. And like, listen, I'm exaggerating a little bit. There is Jewish wisdom out there on a lot of questions. And I do have access to a lot of that wisdom because of the, like, decades I spent studying all these ancient texts. And so I do try to sprinkle in things from the texts. But I will say, like, there is a lot of Jewish wisdom about not knowing.
- [44:57]
PJ Vogt
Yeah.
- [44:57]
Zvika Krieger
And mystery and surrendering control.
- [45:00]
PJ Vogt
I was reading your sermons. I struck by a couple things.
- [45:04]
Zvika Krieger
I'm so excited to hear what you have to say because, like, generally I'm like, preaching to the converted.
- [45:10]
PJ Vogt
Converted.
- [45:11]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah. And so I'm so curious, like, because I don't write them in my, like, people who are like, wouldn't be kind of like a captive audience. And so I'm so curious what comes out?
- [45:20]
PJ Vogt
Well, the first thing. And I was like, perhaps this is just my boundless narcissism. But I was surprised reading some of what you'd written because I thought, oh, part of the job you're doing is less far away from the job that I try to do than I thought where it's like, you're telling stories, you're choosing stories that already exist. You're trying to contextualize the experiences people are having and give them something that might help them make meaning out of it. Like, there was a sermon where you were talking about. It was as simple as, hey, like, everyone's going home for the holidays. People are going to have difficult conversations with family members. You were relating an experience you'd had where you, like, made comments that were, like, about Israel, Palestine, that were sympathetic to Palestinians. And you had, like, more hardcore, like, pro Israel people who had said hurtful things to you. And I thought, like, oh, this is a kind of sense making and meaning making that, like, I understand and that Surprised me.
- [46:21]
Zvika Krieger
I mean, that is, like, when people ask me, what is the role of being a rabbi? I'm not just saying this because you said it. Like, the number one answer I say is meaning making. Like, it is helping people make meaning. It's like helping them as they're, like, navigating their lives with a certain level of unconsciousness. It's like helping them pause and be like, how do I make something that feels mundane feel meaningful? And it can be through a teaching. It can be through a prayer experience. It can be through rituals. Totally meaning making is my job.
- [46:47]
PJ Vogt
But then there was another type of sermon, and this is where I was like, oh, religion requires a level of familiarity with texts that I don't have. Where it would just be about, you know, stories from the past, stories from Scripture. That's the part that I can never. It always feels impenetrable to me. It always feels like a TV show that is on its, like, 15,000th season. And everybody's like, oh, season one, this thing happened. And everybody says it means this, but I think it means this. And, like, I understand the pleasures of textual analysis, and I understand the pleasures of looking at a story and trying to see it differently, but that was the part where I thought, like, oh, this is just a culture that's not my own.
- [47:27]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah. I mean, it is interesting how much I take for granted people's familiarity with, like, just the general contours of the Torah or the Bible, you know, like, just the other day, I was just like, oh, that's the story of, like, the binding of Isaac. And someone's like, what's that? I'm like, you don't know the story where, like, Abraham was commanded by God to, like, sacrifice his only child? You know? And they're like, no, I've never heard that story before. I'm like, right. I live in this, like, little bubble, like, of course, the binding of Isaac. But.
- [47:54]
PJ Vogt
Well. And do you. Okay, the binding of Isaac, which is a story that, as you start to describe it. I do know that story. When you're making a decision in your life or confronting something confusing or painful that's happened, are you like, oh, the binding of Isaac does it.
- [48:07]
Zvika Krieger
Right. I mean, I think that. I don't know if this is the question behind your question, but it's the question that I'm hearing is, why am I returning to the Torah as this, like, book of wisdom? Right. Like, you know, the traditional answer to that question is, the Torah was written by God. Right. And so, like, if you want to, you know, and like, a. Kind of the way it's often talked about in Jewish tradition is it's like, it's like a blueprint for the world and like a sort of instruction manual for how to live your life. And there are parts of the Torah that are very much instructions like, eat this, don't eat this, wear this, don't wear this, so that that stuff's kind of clear, if you believe in it. But then there's, like, lots of stories, like the Binding of Isaac or, like, the Exodus story or whatever, and it's like, well, what are you. Why are those in there? At the very least, these are stories that have been passed down from generation to generation, and they are, like, in the DNA of anyone who's in the world of Western civilization and including Christianity and Islam. So, like, first of all, the fact that they have been passed down, like, there's this kind of buzzword these days of, like, ancestral wisdom. And it's just like, yeah, this book has been around for, like, a really long time. So even if you don't believe God wrote it, like, there's something there, you know? So, like, I think it's, like, worth exploring. And then even if you don't think that it's inherently valuable, it has shaped our society that you can't disagree with. And so, like, looking back at it with sort of a critical eye and being like, what is here? What is this text? And, like, what wisdom can be mined from it? Like, it feels like a worthwhile endeavor.
- [49:33]
PJ Vogt
Yeah. It's funny, I had a moment in my life where things were more challenging than usual. And it was the only time where I found that when I read or thought about stories from the Bible I'd grown up with as a kid, I found myself more attracted to them. And it wasn't because I felt more faith or less faith. I think it was the feeling of, like, people in the past lived lives that were harder to make meaning out of because death was everywhere and things were more senseless. And the stories that those people had used to survive then might be more valuable because, I don't know, making sense of modernity can feel hard, but it's not hard. Like, plague is hard. You know what I mean?
- [50:17]
Zvika Krieger
Totally. Totally. Yeah. And I think that, first of all, I think that's an important context for, like, when that book was written, right? But I also think the core tension, right, of being a quote, unquote, religious person is, like, the God that is portrayed in these religious texts is, like, not a very appealing God. Right. It's just kind of like you have a God who gets angry, you have a God who gets jealous, you have a God who feels like, like kind of petty actually in the Torah. And you're just like, how is this supposed to be the bedrock of a faith? This is God that's actually such an unappealing character. It's like going to see a play where like the main character is like really unappealing. It's just like, you know, like, it's kind of how I feel about White Lotus. Like, I kind of hate that show. I'm just like, there's no appealing character in this whole show. So like the Torah is kind of like White Lotus in that way, but.
- [51:02]
PJ Vogt
It'S also the text that you have to use, right?
- [51:04]
Zvika Krieger
Well, the way that I navigate that is that the God of the Torah is not God. The God of the Torah is a character. It's a God character that was like created by humans, but it's not God. And I would say that there's an inherent contradiction. And I'll say in Judaism, it may be true in other religions, I'm just less of an expert in other religions that like Judaism has these sort of two paradoxical sort of truths, which is that like we have the God of the Torah that is, is very much a human like figure that has feelings and does things. But then there's like, it's very clear in the Jewish sort of tradition, the Jewish law, whatever, that like you are not allowed to personify God, you are not allowed to anthropomorphize God. Like God is not a person, God is not a being. God is like not separate from us in any way. And so it's this paradox of like, wait, okay, like this resonates like, I think for a lot of modern people this idea that like God is not like a person or a sentient being in any way. It's like, okay, that can kind of square that with the world as I see it. But then like, what the fuck is like this very human like God in the Torah, right? Or in the Bible or in the Quran or whatever, right? And the only way to really square that circle is like that is actually like a God projection. That is actually like a human creation of God that is not God, right? It's a God character, right?
- [52:29]
PJ Vogt
It's like we've made something in our image rather than something making us in its image.
- [52:34]
Zvika Krieger
Right? You know, and like, and it's like a useful jumping off point to have a conversation about God. But it's not. That is Not God, because you can't. God does not have human form. So, like, how can you talk about God in that way?
- [52:52]
PJ Vogt
Coming up, after one more short break, we get to the question that brought us here today. Okay. What does it actually feel like to believe in God, at least for this one person? That's after some ads for companies. Hi, I'm Kristen Bell, and if you.
- [53:09]
Zvika Krieger
Know my husband Dax, then you also.
- [53:11]
PJ Vogt
Know he loves shopping for a car. Selling a car, not so much.
- [53:15]
Zvika Krieger
We're really doing this, huh? Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy. Answer a few questions, put in your.
- [53:19]
PJ Vogt
VIN or license, and done. We sold ours in minutes this morning, and they'll come pick it up and pay us this afternoon.
- [53:27]
Zvika Krieger
Goodbye, Truckee. Of course, we kept the favorite. Hello, other Truckee.
- [53:33]
PJ Vogt
Sell your car with Carvana today.
- [53:35]
Zvika Krieger
Terms and conditions apply. What does possibility mean to you? That's a hard question. Something that you can strive for. I'm able to do anything I set my mind to.
- [53:46]
PJ Vogt
You're confident in yourself and you believe in yourself.
- [53:49]
Zvika Krieger
Stuff that you could achieve. I. I feel it's.
- [53:52]
PJ Vogt
Sarah.
- [53:53]
Zvika Krieger
Anything is possible when you're more confident. Shoes are a huge part of that. They are the most important part of my style. You can, like, express yourself in the right shoes.
- [54:02]
PJ Vogt
Anything is possible.
- [54:03]
Zvika Krieger
Dsw. Countless shoes at bragworthy prices. Imagine the possibilities out here.
- [54:09]
PJ Vogt
It's not only the amazing views, but.
- [54:11]
Zvika Krieger
The way time stretches out a little.
- [54:13]
PJ Vogt
Longer and how the breeze hits just right at the summit.
- [54:16]
Zvika Krieger
With alltrails, you can discover nature best.
- [54:18]
PJ Vogt
With over 450,000 trails around the world. Download the free app today. So what is it like for you to just live everyday life with a belief in God? Like, how is. How are you having a different experience than me?
- [54:44]
Zvika Krieger
So I was joking with you before that. There's this book that I love that talks about the challenge of, like, explaining the experience of God. And it's called Catching water in a net, which is, like, it's so hard to talk about. So. So I'm going to try to talk about it.
- [55:00]
PJ Vogt
I appreciate it.
- [55:00]
Zvika Krieger
And so the first thing I want to say is, like, I don't spend all day every day thinking about God.
- [55:05]
PJ Vogt
Okay?
- [55:06]
Zvika Krieger
Right. And in the Jewish sort of spiritual tradition, like, that's okay. There is this practice called dveikut, which literally means, like, cleaving or connecting. And it's like, we always want to be deepening our awareness and our connection to God. But, like, that's something that you drop in and out of. Right. Probably the best analogy is, like, mindfulness. Right. Like, yes, you could be like a Buddha on a mountaintop somewhere and just be fully mindful 24 7. But actually, like, for most people, it's like, like I, I strive to have moments of mindfulness in my life and those moments kind of inform the rest of my life. But I'm not just like sitting in lotus position all day.
- [55:48]
PJ Vogt
Right, but sometimes you are. Sometimes you are. In this analogy, there's times where you do feel like you're getting a clear connection or a clear signal.
- [55:55]
Zvika Krieger
And so, so to answer this question, I kind of have to tell you like, what I think God is.
- [55:59]
PJ Vogt
That's fine.
- [56:01]
Zvika Krieger
I'm gonna, I'm gonna come out of the closet and tell you what I think God is. You know, so like in Jewish spiritual tradition, God is like, it's gonna be so hard to say things that don't sound like completely woo and sort of out there.
- [56:13]
PJ Vogt
So you have blanket permission.
- [56:15]
Zvika Krieger
Permission to be woo, sir.
- [56:16]
PJ Vogt
Yes.
- [56:16]
Zvika Krieger
So in Jewish tradition, the shortest way to sum it up is like, God is oneness. That like everything that ever was is and will be the sum total of all of those things is God.
- [56:29]
PJ Vogt
Okay, so it's like an immolation of self is part of it.
- [56:32]
Zvika Krieger
Absolutely. There's. Yeah. And like, and this concept of Dvekud, of cleaving is like when you feel totally subsumed in the oneness, like, that's the sort of goal. Right. And like God is an English word and a Christian word. It's not a Jewish word. And the word for God in the Jewish lineage is. It's. It's a four letter word that you can't pronounce. It's something called the ineffable name. And it's like some people clumsily pronounce it in English, Yahweh. I don't know if you've heard that.
- [56:59]
PJ Vogt
I have heard that. Yeah.
- [57:00]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah. Because those are the. It's the like four letters. They're like all vowels and like, you can't really pronounce them. But like, first of all, there's something cool about having a name of God that you can't pronounce, which like really gets at the fact that it's this kind of like intangible mystery and not like a person or like a being, but the. But the word for God, which I can't pronounce is actually an amalgamation of the Hebrew words for was, is and will be haya hove. If you mush all those words together, it'll create the word for God. So God is essentially like, everything that is, was, and will be. So when you ask me, like, how do I experience God? How do I connect with God? To me, it's, how can I plug into that awareness that everything is one, that we are all connected. Not just like we all people, but like, everything in existence is connected. And not just like everything currently in existence, but like, everything that was in existence, everything that is, and everything that will be is like, all of that is connected. You can either think of it as, like, there is a life force that flows through all those things, or just like all of those things mushed together are God.
- [58:11]
PJ Vogt
And when you're describing that awareness, is it an intellectual idea, an emotional idea, a physical feeling? Like, at a peak experience of that awareness, what is happening inside your mind or inside your heart?
- [58:25]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah, it's a great question. And, like, I remember asking this question to one of my Spirit Church teachers because she was like, okay, your homework for this this month is every day I want you to spend 10 minutes meditating on the oneness of existence.
- [58:37]
PJ Vogt
Sure.
- [58:37]
Zvika Krieger
And, like, when I heard the. The assignment, I was like, okay. And then, like, I sat down on my first day. I'm just like, okay, like, what do I do now? Like, one. Okay, everything is one. Everything is one. Everything is. And then, like, of course, like, I went to that intellectual place. Like, what does that mean, everything is one? Does that mean that we're, like, literally connected? Like glue? Like, is it. Something flows through all of us. And so, like, there is, like, a way in which you can grapple with that intellectually. But for me, once I sort of move past that intellectual piece of it, there is a felt experience of it. If we are all part of, like, one entity that is God, we always all belong. And there is just this, like, beautiful sense of peace for me that just kind of, like, descends on my body when I'm feeling kind of on the outs or sort of, you know, not belonging. This sense of, like, oh, we're all part of this. Like, we're all in this together. All the sort of distinctions kind of fall apart. That's like, one way in which I definitely, like, experience God is when I allow myself to relax into that awareness.
- [59:40]
PJ Vogt
And it's so. It's the way you're describing it. It's like a place you can go sometimes with stillness and contemplation.
- [59:47]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah, that's kind of how I experience it.
- [59:50]
PJ Vogt
Yeah, that's really beautiful. I mean, it's like, I feel like people talk about oneness and unity and, like, trying to get away from the self. And I understand those things, but I guess I hadn't connected it to a feeling of belonging.
- [60:02]
Zvika Krieger
Totally. Yeah. And it's so core in the Jewish teachings, or at least in, like, the mystical spiritual teachings that, like, I've really gravitated towards. And, like, it's funny because people ask me, like, where do you encounter God, like, most in the world? And, like, I've really thought about that. And, like, honestly, the place where I, like, most encounter God is on the dance floor.
- [60:22]
PJ Vogt
Really?
- [60:23]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah. I know it's, like, kind of cheesy, but, like, there's this moment when you're dancing and, like, I don't know my. I particularly like electronic music. I don't know if it's true in other genres of music where you're just, like, on the dance floor and you were just, like, feeling the music. Like, it is just, like, vibrating inside of you. And then you just look around and everyone else is just feeling it. Right. Because you're all dancing to the same beat. You might be dancing in different ways, and some people are, like, more subtle and some people are bigger movements and that. But you're all dancing in the same beat, and it's just like, ooh. Like, I feel connected to everyone on this dance floor. Cause we are all in it and we are all feeling it. That's oneness. So that's the place where I most. Most feel connected to God. Maybe the other place is, like, when I'm surfing.
- [61:06]
PJ Vogt
Really?
- [61:07]
Zvika Krieger
Yeah. I generally go surf at sunrise. And there's this moment where, like, the world is all dark. And then, like, you kind of see, like, the beginning glimmers. I'm on the west coast of the sunset does not rise over the ocean. But you just kind of see the, like, glimmers of the, like, morning light kind of sparkling over the water. And then, like, I actually don't feel connected to God when I catch a wave. I feel when I'm just kind of, like, floating and you kind of, like, the waves kind of come, and it almost feels kind of like the heartbeat of the earth. And it's just like, oh, there's just this kind of, like, steady presence connected to something bigger that I can just relax into. So those are, like, maybe, as I think about it, like, two places where I definitely feel God.
- [61:52]
PJ Vogt
I'm always encountering studies suggesting that basically, if you can believe in God, in many ways, you're likely to be happier. And it's always like, well, that's great, but, like, it's not the type of thing you could Rationally persuade yourself into doing. It's like, what advice would you have for someone who doesn't believe in God? Like, what are the things from your practice that you think a non believer could still benefit from?
- [62:16]
Zvika Krieger
I. I was talking to my friend Adina this week, who's a spiritual leader here in Brooklyn, and we were talking about this whole idea of, like, believers versus non believers, and we were saying how that doesn't feel like the right way to divide the world between, like, atheists and believers or, like, people who believe in God and people who don't believe in God. It's people who think about the nature of existence and people who don't. You know, a lot of people ask, like, do you believe in God? My version of that question is I start with, what do you believe in? You know, in every spiritual tradition, there are hundreds, if not thousands of ways to define God. And I think that, in essence, you can find a definition of God in some spiritual tradition that resonates with what you believe in in terms of the nature of existence. But that means you have to be, like, curious about, like, the nature of existence. Why are we here? What's happening in the world beyond what can be explained by science? You have to be interested in asking those questions.
- [63:19]
PJ Vogt
It's funny. I mean, I know your bent is towards not being prescriptive, but I do think, like, the advice I would take from that or what I take from that, is that perhaps more important than whether somebody has faith or doesn't have faith or what they have faith in. I do think it's pretty important to wrestle with larger questions, because I think if you don't, you end up just being stuck with the small ones. Like, your life just kind of becomes, am I happy today? Was I happy yesterday? Will I be happier tomorrow? Will I get this? Will I lose this? And sometimes things go really well, and sometimes they go really poorly. But it's almost like those larger questions about existence are a refuge because they give you a larger timescale of meaning than whatever's happening right now.
- [64:05]
Zvika Krieger
Totally. Yeah. I mean, like, people ask me, like, well, like, why do you believe in God? And I'm like, because I like to. It nourishes me. It gives my life meaning. It gives me an impetus to sort of grapple with these questions. Right. I don't believe in God because I feel like I have to. It actually brings meaning to my life.
- [64:19]
PJ Vogt
Yeah.
- [64:20]
Zvika Krieger
But I also, like, I don't. I don't want to just punt on your question because I can give a more Specific answer of, like, what do I recommend? Like, I'm a big fan of prayers. And you might be like, wait, what? Like, if someone doesn't believe in God, the prescription you're gonna give them is prayer. And you know, to me, like, I like to say, you know, there's that phrase, like, dance like nobody's watching or whatever. So I like to say, like, pray like nobody's listening. So, like, there's, like, two parts of it. One is just stating what you want. Like, verbalizing and allowing those words to come out of your mouth actually has a positive impact. People who verbalize what they want feel more of a sense of hope.
- [65:01]
PJ Vogt
Yeah.
- [65:02]
Zvika Krieger
And then, like, number two is like, I really do find a lot of power in this idea of surrender.
- [65:06]
PJ Vogt
Yeah.
- [65:07]
Zvika Krieger
You know, of just like, oh, like, there's something I really want. And, like, one solution is to just, like, work my ass off and, like, grasp and, like, really try and get that thing. And then, like, there's another strategy which actually, in the strategies are not mutually exclusive. You can say, like, actually, this is, like, totally not within my control to get. And I'm gonna, like, surrender my ability to make this thing happen. And there is something perhaps counterintuitively, really helpful for me at least to just, like, be like, yeah, I'm gonna just, like, put this out there and, like, surrender my. My sort of exclusive control around making this happen. And so, like, prayer to me, like, has those two components to it. And that's like, one genre of prayer, which is, like, wanting things to happen. There's also, like, a whole other genre of prayer which is around gratitude, which I find really powerful. And, like, if you're, you know, more traditional person, you're, like, like, thanking God for. For giving you these things. But then if you don't think of God as, like, a person that gives and doesn't give things, there's still a value in being like, I'm so grateful for, you know, for all the things that I have in my life and to get specific about it and to, on a daily basis, connect with gratitude. So, you know, it can take on a different flavor depending on what your conception of God is. But I think that anyone can benefit from a prayer practice.
- [66:22]
PJ Vogt
That's not what I expected you to.
- [66:23]
Zvika Krieger
Say, and I like it.
- [66:24]
PJ Vogt
I also just, like, it's funny. This year we've sort of been collecting advice from people, and I would not have predicted at the beginning that where we would be sort of a year in is, like, consider prayer and surrender.
- [66:38]
Zvika Krieger
The world is so fucked that the only thing left to do is just surrender. It's a piece of the equation. It's not the whole recipe. But, you know, I think it's an important practice.
- [66:49]
PJ Vogt
Just Svica, thank you for talking to me about this.
- [66:51]
Zvika Krieger
Thanks so much for having me.
- [66:54]
PJ Vogt
When I spoke to Zvika, I was having a nice week. The week after was more challenging and I found this conversation playing back in my head. During the tough week, I had this feeling that I forgot I have sometimes, which was a little jealous of people who are able to believe. It's a funny kind of jealousy. There are so many things you get to choose how to behave, who to spend your time with. But if you choose to believe in something, I'm not sure what you have really is belief or if it's belief. It's not the kind of belief I'm jealous of. But Zvika had told me the two things someone like me might take from someone like him were prayer and surrender. You could try saying what you hoped would happen, or you could try letting go of your ability to control it. Sometimes I think for those of us who don't believe we make this mistake, that if no one's in control, we have to be. Maybe that's wrong. This week I'm trying to surrender. I'll let you know how it goes. SA Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey. It was created by me, PJ Vogt and Shruti Pinamaneni. This episode was produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Theme, original composition and mixing by Armin Bazarian. Fact checking this week by Holly Patton at Odyssey. Our executive producer is Leah Rees Dennis and thanks to the rest of the team at Odyssey, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gaynor, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney and Hilary Schuff. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at uta. If you'd like to support our show and get ad free episodes, zero reruns and some additional audio, please consider signing up for Incognito Mode. You can learn more at Search Engine Show. Follow and listen to Search Engine for free on the Odysee app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening. We will see you in just a couple weeks with a brand new episode. We gotta make that. Until then, have a cool summer. Hey everybody, PJ here. I want to tell you about a show we love over here on this team. You may know it already. It's called Planet Money. They tell these surprising, fascinating stories about the economy and they made a little trailer which I'm going to share with you right now.
- [70:19]
Zvika Krieger
Planet Money helps you understand the economy. We find the people at the center of the story. Garbage in New York, that was like a controlled substance.
- [70:27]
PJ Vogt
We show you how money influences everything.
- [70:30]
Zvika Krieger
Tell me what you like by telling.
- [70:33]
PJ Vogt
Me how you spend your money.
- [70:34]
Zvika Krieger
And we dig until we get answers. I had a bad feeling you're gonna bring that up. Planet Money finds out. All you have to do is listen. The Planet Money podcast from npr.