When do you know it’s time to stop drinking? (re-broadcast)

Summary

Podcast Title: Search Engine
Host: PJ Vogt
Episode: When Do You Know It’s Time to Stop Drinking? (Re-broadcast)
Release Date: December 20, 2024

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Introduction

In this heartfelt rebroadcast episode of Search Engine, host PJ Vogt delves into the profound question: When do you know it’s time to stop drinking? Featuring an in-depth conversation with A.J. Delario, a former editor at Gawker Media and the founder of the recovery newsletter The Small Bow, this episode navigates the complexities of addiction, recovery, and personal transformation.

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A.J. Delario’s Journey with Addiction and Career

Early Struggles and Initial Rehab ([05:14] - [07:36])

A.J. Delario opens up about his first encounter with rehab at the age of 19. Initially sent for what he describes as a "detention-like" experience under the guise of addressing a drinking problem, A.J. candidly shares, “I was there basically pretending to be an alcoholic” ([05:51]). Despite attending counseling sessions and watching recovery-themed movies like Clean and Sober ([06:10]), he admits he didn’t stay sober, revealing an early awareness of his unsustainable relationship with substances.

Professional Success Amid Personal Turmoil ([11:44] - [16:24])

Fast forward to his 40s, A.J. found himself thriving professionally within the media landscape dominated by edgy, provocative content. As the editor of Deadspin and later Spin Media, he recounts, “I found that this year... I was having success in that. It wasn't going to be enough for me” ([07:29]). His career was marked by controversial decisions, such as the Hulk Hogan sex tape scandal, which ultimately led to his departure from Gawker ([12:53]).

Despite outward success, A.J. struggled internally, grappling with loneliness and an inability to manage his personal life without substances. He reflects, “No matter how much of my professional life was, I was having success in that. It wasn't going to be enough for me” ([10:34]).

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Turning Point: Acknowledging the Need for Change

Decision to Enter Rehab ([16:24] - [23:34])

In 2015, recognizing the unsustainable trajectory of his life, A.J. decided to seek help seriously. He describes a pivotal moment captured in a photo of his disordered workstation, symbolizing his chaotic lifestyle: “a Pringles can of Buffalo extra spicy hot wings flavored Pringles” alongside substances like Xanax and alcohol ([18:54]). This imagery underscores the depths of his addiction and the critical need for change.

Experience in Rehab ([22:56] - [27:19])

A.J. shares his initial nine-day detox experience in North Jersey, where he felt out of place among individuals with more severe addictions. Identifying as a "classic garbage head"—someone without a specific preference for substances—he struggled to take his situation seriously ([22:56]). The turning point came after a brief relapse and a subsequent 45-day inpatient rehab in Florida, where he finally acknowledged that sobriety was the only path forward ([26:49]).

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Building a New Path: The Birth of The Small Bow

Founding The Small Bow ([39:25] - [43:22])

Post-rehab, feeling adrift and seeking purpose, A.J. launched The Small Bow in 2018. He explains, “I was trying to figure out how to actually just, like, you know, get back into publishing again” ([39:25]). His newsletter focuses on long-term recovery, featuring essays and illustrations that capture the raw realities of sobriety. A.J. emphasizes authenticity, avoiding clichéd recovery narratives to instead present genuine, wounded experiences that resonate with readers.

Challenges of Public Recovery ([40:40] - [44:13])

Launching The Small Bow was fraught with fears of public judgment and relapse triggers. A.J. admits, “I was always constantly... wanting to pander to people” ([41:14]). Nonetheless, the positive feedback and community engagement validated his efforts, allowing him to connect with others facing similar struggles.

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The Essence of Sobriety: Beyond Abstinence

Defining True Sobriety ([33:51] - [37:04])

A.J. differentiates between mere abstinence and true sobriety. While Dry January focuses on temporarily cutting out alcohol, he argues that real sobriety entails a profound personal transformation: “real sobriety means trying to see yourself clearly, trying to evolve” ([58:25]). This journey involves confronting self-loathing, building self-compassion, and rebuilding meaningful relationships.

Rebuilding Relationships and Self-Compassion ([35:54] - [60:06])

Sobriety often necessitates distancing from toxic relationships and accepting that some friendships may fade. A.J. shares, “some of the people I said it was kind of just like instead of a catching up period, it was like an exit interview” ([36:11]). Additionally, he discusses the ongoing struggle to foster self-love, recognizing that “crashing a car and coming in the next day” symbolizes the harsh self-judgment many in recovery experience ([58:56]).

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Comparing Dry January to Serious Sobriety

Dry January vs. Long-Term Recovery ([55:18] - [57:19])

When discussing Dry January, A.J. views it as a modest, temporary commitment compared to the extensive, life-altering process of achieving sobriety. He likens Dry January to a “turkey trot” compared to the marathon of true recovery ([56:54]). While acknowledging its positive intentions, he emphasizes that lasting sobriety requires deeper, more sustained efforts beyond short-term abstinence.

PJ’s Reflection on Sobriety ([34:32] - [60:06])

PJ shares his own reflections on abstinence, noting that it often involves abstaining without addressing underlying issues. He appreciates A.J.’s perspective on sobriety as a journey of self-discovery and healing, rather than just refraining from alcohol, highlighting the importance of evolving and offering self-compassion.

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Notable Quotes

• A.J. Delario: “I was there basically pretending to be an alcoholic.” ([05:51])
• A.J. Delario: “I found that... I was having success in that. It wasn't going to be enough for me.” ([07:29])
• PJ Vogt: “Do you feel like that that is something that addicts share? Do you think that's something that addicts have to a different intensity?” ([09:47])
• A.J. Delario: “It's an overall sort of, like, swirling tornado of inadequacy and depression and anxiety.” ([08:08])
• A.J. Delario: “I think what I feel now is that I'm trying to learn how to love myself.” ([59:57])
• PJ Vogt: “If you ever hear me more uncomfortable asking a question on the show, please let me know.” ([54:04])
• A.J. Delario: “This is my way of at least extending that hand out to people...” ([52:56])

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Conclusions and Insights

This episode of Search Engine offers a poignant exploration of the journey from addiction to recovery. Through A.J. Delario’s candid storytelling, listeners gain insight into the often-hidden struggles behind professional success and the profound personal work required for true sobriety. The conversation underscores that cessation of drinking, as exemplified by Dry January, is just the beginning of a deeper, ongoing process of self-discovery, healing, and rebuilding. Ultimately, the episode serves as a compassionate reminder that it’s okay to seek change, that recovery is a personal and non-linear journey, and that true sobriety involves embracing self-compassion and authentic connections.

For those grappling with similar challenges, A.J.’s message is clear: "When do you know it’s time to stop drinking? Probably the right choice." ([55:46])

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Resources Mentioned:

• The Small Bow Newsletter: www.thesmallbow.substack.com
• A.J. Delario’s Writing: Personal essays on recovery and sobriety.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive conversation between PJ Vogt and A.J. Delario.

Transcript

[PJ Vogt]

Welcome to Search Engine. I'm PJ Vogt. Each week we answer a question we have about the world. No question too big, no question too small. This week, when do you know it's time to stop drinking? This is our show's very first rebroadcast, airing on our ad supported feed. If you pay to subscribe to our premium feed at Search Engine Joe, we do not have reruns, but if not, this is an episode that we really loved, that we feel is extremely seasonally appropriate. That episode after these ads this episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by policygenius. Each new year is an opportunity to reflect and plan for the future. Like setting career goals, making financial moves, and most importantly, ensuring your family is always taken care of no matter what happens. With policygenius, you can find life insurance policies that start at just $292 per year for $1 million of coverage. Some options are 100% online and let you avoid unnecessary medical exams. Do you know that 40% of people wish they got life insurance at a younger age? Policygenius lets you compare quotes from America's top insurers side by side for free, with no hidden fees. Their licensed support team helps you get what you need fast so you can get on with your life. They answer questions, handle paperwork and advocate for you throughout the process. Join the thousands of happy policygenius customers who have left five star reviews on Google and trustpilot. Secure your families tomorrow so you have peace of mind. Today. Head to policygenius.com to get your free life insurance quotes and see how much you can save. That's policygenius.com nerds. This episode is brought to you in part by Nerd Wallet Listener. A new year is finally here and if you're anything like me, you've got a lot on your plate. Habits to build, travel plans to make mocktail recipes to perfect Good thing our sponsor, NerdWallet is here to take one thing off your plate. Finding the best financial products. Introducing NerdWallet's best of awards. List your shortcut to the best credit cards, savings accounts and more. The nerds have done the work for you, researching and reviewing over 1,100 financial products to bring you only the best of the best. Looking for a balance transfer credit card with a 0% APR? They've got a winner for that. Or a bank account with the top rate to hit your savings goals? They've got a winner for that too. Know you're getting the best products for you without doing all the research yourself. So let NerdWallet do the heavy lifting for your finances this year and head over to their 2025 Best of Awards at NerdWallet.com awards to find the best financial products. It's nearly January, the time of year when we all try to be a little bit better. You can see the evidence of all the trying if you know where to look. January is when the gym rats complain that all the New Year's resolution people are hogging the treadmills. January is when the Apple Podcast charts, which are normally dominated by the hubermans, the smartlesses, the crime junkies, temporarily make way for all the Bible in a Year shows.

[A.J. Delario]

Hey Bible readers, I'm Tara Leigh Cobble and I'm your host for the Bible recap. Hello, I'm Pastor Jack Graham with today's episode of the Bible in a Year podcast.

[PJ Vogt]

Hi, I'm Father Mike Schmitz and and you're listening to the Bible in the Year podcast. This is day one, so let's get started. These podcasts promise to summarize all 1500 pages of the Bible in just 12 months. The lapsed Christians guiltily streaming back into the Apple podcast store to speedrun scripture. I know I'm being a little teasy here, but I just want to be clear. I'm on the side of the people who try. I try. I find it embarrassing, but I do it anyway. For me, this year, I'm not on the treadmill. I'm not listening to the Bible. But what I am doing is Dry January. Dry January is simple. The idea is that for 31 days we stop drinking. Just for 31 days. I was thinking about doing it this year and I felt some uncomfortable feelings that surprised me. Then I thought about recording a conversation about those feelings and I felt much more uncomfortable. And so I decided I should do it. And so I called my friend, A.J. delario. A.J. is a writer. He runs a newsletter I really love called the Small Bow. When I recommend it to friends, what I usually say is that it's a newsletter about recovery. As in, they often run funny or vivid essays from people who are sober or trying to get sober. But I'm neither of those things. And I love it. And I know a lot of people like me who also love it. The Small Bow is a place where year round, people talk about what it's like to try to change how hard it is. And so in January, when many of us are just dipping our toes in those feelings, I wanted to talk to AJ Hello, AJ Hi. Where am I Talking to you from where are you?

[A.J. Delario]

I'm in Los Angeles, California. I'm in a renovated carriage house at a place that we're renting in Hancock Park. Is that too much information?

[PJ Vogt]

I think that's an amount of information. I don't think anyone's going to swat you at this point. Okay, well, so what I'm interested in asking you is, like, this question, like, when do you know that it's time to stop drinking? And when I'm asking that, obviously that's like a general you. But I was wondering, before we get into how specifically you answer that question for yourself, I was wondering for you, like, what was even your first experience of rehab?

[A.J. Delario]

When I was 19 is when I went to my first. And I went there basically because I had clinical depression, but was too ashamed of saying to people that I was depressed. So I kind of told people that I had a drinking problem. And I got put into this place in Northeast Philadelphia off of Roosevelt Boulevard on Harbison Avenue that I would go to between community college classes. I would go here for the day. It was kind of like detention, basically. And I would go there and. And we would have counseling sessions and we would watch movies. Like Clean and Sober with Michael Keaton, I remember, was a big one. And I was there basically pretending to be an alcoholic. But I do remember going to a couple meetings, and I obviously didn't stay sober at the time. I had no desire to, but I remember being there thinking that, oh, I'll probably be back here in some capacity. I no idea why, but I just had that sinking feeling that, you know, as much as this stuff was, I thought, like, you know, doing really well for me, that being, you know, drinking, partying, whatever, I knew I couldn't handle it right in the ways that, you know, normal people can.

[PJ Vogt]

And when you're talking about, like, you know, at 19, you had this sort of intuition that your relationship with substances had an expiration date on it. Like, what was your relationship like to drinking or substance at that point? And how did that change by the time you're in your 40s?

[A.J. Delario]

I think I was very normal, recreational, high school, college drinker.

[PJ Vogt]

Right.

[A.J. Delario]

I don't think there are any real red flags at that point. I mean, I could be wrong, but, you know, I didn't feel like I was in jeopardy of really having any sort of ism that was going to actually impact my day to day. I just knew that I had a deep sense of unease that was always with me throughout most of my life, that I was constantly in search of a solution for. Right.

[PJ Vogt]

And wait, what do you call that unease? Like, do you call that unease depression? Do you call that unease something else?

[A.J. Delario]

I mean, it's just like. It's an overall sort of, like, swirling tornado of inadequacy and depression and anxiety, that feeling that I'm completely left out of every single good part of life, that I'm unable to really kind of participate in that being who I am. So I had to kind of turn into something else. I've had that my whole entire life. I was at this meeting one time, and this man who was sharing his story about his alcoholism said something along the lines of, just like, you know, I was an alcoholic the first day I went into kindergarten. And that hit me, like, right in the chest, because I was just like, God, I know exactly what he means by that. Right? Just, like, the first day that I kind of stepped into a classroom around my peers, I was always looking for a way to kind of be accepted in a way that I didn't think I could.

[PJ Vogt]

I feel like so many. I mean, I don't know what it's like to. Not. The joke that I always make privately in my own mind is that, like, my last name is Vogt, but if I'm somewhere, like a car rental place, people mispronounce it as Voight a lot of the time.

[A.J. Delario]

Yes.

[PJ Vogt]

And in my head, it's not a funny joke, but in my head, the joke is always that, like, they're saying void, and they're just, like, naming me and my companion. They're like, you, and, like, the endless void that's inside of you, like, step forward and get your hurts. Like, I don't know what it would be like to not feel a sense of unease all the time. Do you feel like that that is something that addicts share? Do you think that's something that addicts have to a different intensity? How do you categorize that in the human experience?

[A.J. Delario]

I mean, I think everyone that I've met on this side of recovery has definitely felt that at some point. And obviously, when I talk about this a lot in the newsletter, there's a lot of people who say that I feel that way, too, and struggle with that every day, whatever. And let me ask you this. I mean, it's just like, when you started to have success podcasting, did you think that that was actually supposed to kind of change all those sort of feelings for you and were supposed to kind of be at that inner peace? I mean, did you ever have that when you got some of the things that you were always after, professionally speaking.

[PJ Vogt]

I completely expected it would fill it. And it was very shocking and surprised me that it didn't.

[A.J. Delario]

It's a horrible feeling that when that happens, because that happened for me too. You know, I was at a place in circa 2010 11, you know, where I was like, oh, I'm getting all the attention that I thought I wanted. I'm getting paid the amount that I thought I wanted. People think I'm interesting in a way that I thought I always wanted. And, you know, I'm still out drinking and carousing every single night because I'm still lonely at the end of the night. And whenever I would, it would inch up to like 2, 3 o'clock in the morning, I would get so anxious because I was just like, God, I don't want to go to bed yet. I'm not drunk enough yet to fall asleep. I would never sleep in a bed. You know, I always needed to fall asleep on the couch. Always needed to fall asleep with like three or four cigarettes before I went to bed, you know, and that's when things were going well for me. Right. You know, and that's the stuff that I look back upon where I'm just like, God, this was never going to work. No matter how much of my professional life was, I was having success in that. It wasn't going to be enough for me.

[PJ Vogt]

AJ was having a lot of professional success during what, in retrospect feels like a very strange moment in media. In the early 2000 and tens, a lot of investors had decided the best way to make money was by investing in bloggy websites. This was the ascendant era of vice of Gawker Media, the era when men with money were giving snarky, acerbic, mostly other men lots of cash because they believed that the future of journalism might just be someone like aj A brash, perpetually hungover guy who was never afraid to pick a fight on the Internet. A professional provocateur, AJ had run Gawker's big sports website, Deadspin, and he'd been editor in chief of gawker, where in 2012, he'd made an editorial decision there that would help lead to the demise of the company. He'd posted a sex tape of wrestler Hulk Hogan, which would result in a company ending lawsuit funded by the billionaire Peter Thiel. But the actual Hogan trial wouldn't happen for years. And in the meantime, before those dominoes had fallen, AJ would leave Gawker as a star. He'd move between Lucrative gigs sponsored by different people who were enamored with his ability to command Internet attention.

[A.J. Delario]

I was the classic case of failing upward. As much as I was a fuck up. I mean, that was kind of part of my brand at the time. I had become one of those people, and, man, I got away with a lot of things. I was rewarded for it sometimes and was constantly bouncing out of a situation that was good. I was usually quitting my jobs too, as a way to really chase that other place, to fill that hole. I remember, like, I took this job at what used to be Spin magazine, which is now Spin Media, but this.

[PJ Vogt]

Was Spin the music magazine.

[A.J. Delario]

Spin the music magazine. And it was like my dream job, too.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, my God. No, it was the coolest music magazine. I remember going to a barber with a spin cover of, like, Ad Rock from the Beastie Boys, like, looking very cool with a very cool haircut and being like, give me this haircut. Like, anyway, spin that.

[A.J. Delario]

But it was one of those jobs where I was just like, oh, this can be the one where I can actually just like, shed all the reputation that I kind of built up at Gawker Media and Deadspin and go into something where I can be treated seriously and I can. I don't have to be the guy that I'm being now, Right? And. And I remember I got, you know, called in for an interview, and the man who had taken it over, it was kind of just one of these dot com guys who had just, you know, got too rich and just decided to start buying media properties. Cause he was bored sort of guy, right? And, you know, I'm having the interview and I remember showing up very hungover and just completely ganked on Adderall. And I was wearing visors a lot at the time. That was like my thing, like golf visors. Golf visors. Yeah. Yeah. Like, this is the darkest part of your story. Also, like, 15 years passed when visors were actually just, like, cool, you know, and, you know, wearing them crooked most of the time and just like, just smelling like shit all the time. But being able to kind of be in this room with this person and convince them, I will take the job. I will take the editorial director job at your place of business.

[PJ Vogt]

It's just crazy. You're describing a person where your memory of yourself is that your life is slowly falling apart, but that professionally people are buying what you're selling.

[A.J. Delario]

Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's just. It's the craziest thing. But, I mean, you know why? Because I had confidence this Artificial confidence that had come with all of the substances and, you know, the Internet confidence, whatever sort of stuff. And look, I mean, and after that, I raised $1.1 million for my own company. After that, after I lost that job. Right. And again, sort of same situation. I mean, when I was raising money for this company, my co founder, Julia, she would make these decks and he would go, and we'd have these meetings, and the deck presentation would never go great. But if I showed up in my uniform with that visor on and smelling like last night and just dazzling these dudes with all the stories about Deadspin or Gawker or just, like, gossipy stuff and like, all those sort of things, so crazy, like, people would buy in, right?

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah, yeah.

[A.J. Delario]

You know, I mean, I was just wearing a coat of red flags. Yet at the same time, I mean, people were absolutely into it, at least a certain segment of people. But there were obviously other people who knew that I was headed for disaster.

[PJ Vogt]

One of the people who could tell that something was wrong actually was AJ in 2015, he decides to go to rehab. His professional life was still humming along. The Hulk Hogan trial still a year away. But he'd begun to suspect his personal life might not be manageable. His problems, which had seemed like a fun joke, something to advertise in a confident, ironic way, they were beginning to seem real. What do you think made you finally take it seriously?

[A.J. Delario]

You know, I knew something was coming for me, right? I knew it was either going to be kind of sobriety that was by my choice, or it was going to come because there was this. This. This big reckoning that was about to happen in my life. And in. In prepping for this, I actually just started to go through my phone from 2015, which was the time when things were really going bad for me. And I came upon this photo that's in my phone that I've saved and I've sent to other people as well, but it's of my workstation, so to speak, and it's like a coffee table in my apartment in Williamsburg at the time. And I remember working this day, and it wasn't really like a work day. I had to do one post for. For the company that I was running at the time that was my own, that I was failing at and failing at. And I remember just being on Friday trying to figure out the right combination of either drugs or alcohol that I could put in my system so I could get done the one post, and on this table, there is a small bong, an empty bottle of Modelo, an empty bottle of Prosecco, two lighters, a full ashtray, it looks like. And I'm pretty sure this is like Xanax from Mexico, A bunch of other smashed up white pills of various sort of consistencies. There's pot, two empty bodega coffee cups. But the thing that I remember that's most disturbing about this is there is a Pringles can, and it's a Pringles can of. Of Pringles, Buffalo extra spicy hot wings flavored Pringles.

[PJ Vogt]

Okay?

[A.J. Delario]

And the reason why this is the thing that gives me like the chills the most and just like it actually makes me shiver is because I remember going to the bodega that day, having not eaten in a pretty long time and knowing that I had to eat, but also not having enough money to really buy anything substantial. So I opted for these Pringles because it said they had buffalo chicken on them. And I thought that that would be sufficient amount of protein. And that was it. And those are the types of decisions that I was making about my life pretty regularly, right? I was 41 years old at the time when these are the type of things that are going on. I would say at this time in my life, especially when I was supposed to be very productive and had my own startup and everything like that, I probably only worked on Wednesdays. And I say Wednesdays, you know, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, I was either getting after it or hungover, right? And then Thursday, Friday, you know, start up again. So Wednesday was really my full day of clarity. But I think on this Friday, I was really trying to push through and get one post done for the week. But I didn't think that I needed to stop at that point. I did think I needed to adjust the things that were going into my body to find the perfect combination that would make me productive. Never once considering that stopping all these things would be the best way to do that.

[PJ Vogt]

I know some people listening to this interview are in recovery and some are not. I know some people listen to this and find their ears have sort of sharpened curiosity that they're listening while trying to figure out what category they belong to. Maybe you'd never do this, but maybe once you did something like that. What I relate to here is that there were times in my life where I found myself holding onto something tightly even though it was hurting me. Times where instead of removing my hand from a hot stove, I felt like the one thing I was sure of was that my hand needed to be on the stove, that pulling it off was scarier than anything I could imagine. And in those times, because I couldn't imagine a life without what was hurting me, I just reorganized myself around managing the pain so I could keep not changing. We find ways to be functional. We figure out what works until it stops working for aj that moment with the Pringles Buffalo Scorchin Potato Crisps, which it turns out only have 1 gram of protein per serving. It was somewhere around then that he realized he needed to make a change.

[A.J. Delario]

Soon after this photo was taken In August of 2015, I went to a detox center and North Jersey. I went there for nine days. I showed up there and felt like right away that this is not the place for me, that I shouldn't be there. And they give you these options depending on the type of insurance you had. And I had pretty good insurance at the time to where you can either get a single room or stay with other people. Kind of like a dorm sort of situation. I opted for the single room and kind of stayed in there all the time. Got up, smoked cigarettes, did some push ups, read two pages of the book I'd bought or whatever, and then went downstairs and was trying to interact with, I'm going to call them kids, but most of them were who were there for heroin. Right. And you know, I was there for everything. I was what they call in rehab a classic garbage head.

[PJ Vogt]

But wait, what's the classic garbage head?

[A.J. Delario]

A garbage head is somebody who identifies as an alcoholic or an addict, but doesn't have a real preference for which one is going to get them. The ruination basically comes from all sources. Right.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, you're just like, give me whatever.

[A.J. Delario]

Exactly. Yeah. And feeling very much as most people do when they get thrown into those situations, well, I don't belong here. I'm not that bad. Right.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[A.J. Delario]

And feeling a little bit of a sense of relief on that where it hadn't gotten that point. And I'm being proactive by even coming here and doing this nine day stint.

[PJ Vogt]

You're seeing people with real problems and in your mind you're just a person who needs an adjustment.

[A.J. Delario]

Yeah. I remember there was a kid that came up to me and it was asking me, know where I was from and everything like that. And he had an abscess on his hand that was like the size of a cockroach.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[A.J. Delario]

And I mean, he couldn't have been older than 20, but was so nonchalant about it and almost kind of like showing off as like this badge of honor. Right. And you know, I. I had nothing except like Some crappy tattoos, basically. But it was there that I was like, oh, I. I'm not this bad. Whatever I have that I'm struggling with, these are the real problems here, right? But I also isolated the whole entire time. I never, ever took things seriously, that I had a serious problem. I was there because I said I had a Xanax problem. I didn't really have a drinking problem. I wouldn't identify as an alcoholic or anything. It was. I had to do the whole nine days in order to get the Xanax out of my system. And I remember checking out of that place and one of the technicians, as they're called, and they're basically the counselors asking me where I was off to next, right? Assuming that I was going to take to Florida or Arizona for 60 to 90 day rehab after that. And I looked at them like that. That was the craziest idea. I was just like, I just did nine days, right? I mean, acting like I was in solitary at like, you know, kind of a terrible, just prison someplace. But it was really hard for me to conceive of going someplace for that long, being kind of cut off from my old life and not drinking or doing anything for that long. And then when I got home, when I got back to Williamsburg, you know, and I talked to the people that I was working with at my company at the time, I was just like, yeah, well, I'm going to just smoke pot, which I wasn't a big pot smoker at the time, and drink beers, do civilian stuff. But a funny thing happened was I got back and my drug dealer texted me and he said, can you meet me downstairs? And I thought that there was something really bad had happened. So I meet him downstairs, right? Instead he's like, you know, I got this new combination of hash and molly and I wanted to give you a free sample of it. So he gives me this thing and I didn't mention him where I'd been.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, he didn't know?

[A.J. Delario]

Oh, he didn't know? No, he didn't know it, you know, but he remembered that I liked these sort of hybrid drugs that he was kind of experimenting with. And so he gave it to me and he's just like, just tell me what it, what you think of it.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[A.J. Delario]

So now in this sober 12 step world, there's this thing called God shots, which are essentially just like when the spiritual realm kind of interacts with you and kind of pushes you towards the good path. This was the opposite of that, right? Wherein I thought that this was a spiritual intervention telling me just like, hey, you don't have to quit drugs yet. Here's some free ones for you. Right?

[PJ Vogt]

Right. Why would this show up in your path?

[A.J. Delario]

If not, why would this show up? Right.

[PJ Vogt]

Exactly.

[A.J. Delario]

And then probably about a month after that is when I was already relapsing pretty hard at that point and went to Florida for what was 45, 46 days or something along those lines for inpatient rehab. And when I was there is when I realized that, yeah, this is the only way that this was going to get me to stop is to be kind of locked up in this situation.

[PJ Vogt]

So that was the place where you understood like, hey, I'm not gonna really be able to have a future with substances.

[A.J. Delario]

No, not at all. And it was so sad for me to think that.

[PJ Vogt]

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[PJ Vogt]

So what was it like when you became sober? Like what was new sobriety like for you?

[A.J. Delario]

You know, there were so many great days right? There really were in rehab.

[PJ Vogt]

What's a great day like in rehab?

[A.J. Delario]

Man? Beach volleyball in rehab is probably one of the most fun activities I've ever been been able to participate in.

[PJ Vogt]

Really? Are you being sarcastic?

[A.J. Delario]

No, I loved it. It was amazing.

[PJ Vogt]

Why is beach volleyball and rehab so nice?

[A.J. Delario]

I think it's just because you have all these people who are there and have been. Their lives have been kind of decimated in some capacity, are just like shipwrecked at this place. And then all of a sudden you're kind of forced to play this kids game that most people haven't done since they were in elementary school gym class and just enjoying it in ways that, I mean were completely unthinkable to me. And I think that was just it for me, was just like, oh, you know, the beach in this shitty part of Florida is actually kind of nice. I mean, I'm having fun, I'm laughing genuinely, and this is just like filling me with a lot of good vibes that I have been absent in my life for such a long time. But you know, the minute I got back on the plane to Brooklyn, it was December when I finally got back into town, so it was like Christmas time. And I remember just feeling the weight of God, what do I do now? Like, who are my friends that I can hang out with? Like, how am I supposed to interact with people? And it was like, you know, holiday party season at that point. And I was just like, can I even go to these? And the answer was no, of course not. I Can't. But it was just like, that's when the loneliness started to sink in. All of those good feelings of kind of being inside an institution were gone now. I was back out in the world and the world has gone on without me. It was really sad when my phone was in like a plastic bag. That when you check in at rehab and I remember this is how seriously I'm gonna take this. I'm gonna give the man my phone, right? And I remember coming out and being very excited at like day 47 or whatever like that to finally check my phone and all of the emails. Like, nothing happened, right? I missed nothing. Nobody missed me. Everyone is kind of moving on with their lives and I was just absent from it for two to three months. That was really it. And then kind of just to come back and figure out how to build a social life and figure out who my friends are and who I want to have just meaningful relationships with. That's a lot to process. Yeah, no more beach volleyball days anymore, you know, so things were just different for me and I didn't know where to start. And I think that that is just like the feeling that most people go into this with. Like, if you're trying to get sober and there's a difference between, you know, stopping drinking and trying to get sober.

[PJ Vogt]

What do you see the difference as?

[A.J. Delario]

The difference is the changes that I needed to make about myself, that I always wanted to make, I was absolutely incapable of doing while I was drunk or on drugs. But now I was absolutely forced into kind of actually confronting those things and given the choice of basically, okay, I have to change or I'm probably going to have to go back to living the way that I was living before. And that wasn't. I wouldn't say I was going to die, but I would have been completely unhappy and nothing good would have ever happened. I would have just been sinking further and further down into a morass of self pity and substances.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah, I remember. I mean, I haven't been sober, but I had like a year where I didn't drink, I didn't use substances. And I remember one of the surprising things was when you sort of describe Christmas being hard, like just realizing how much. Like the two things I realized very quickly. One was so much of social life revolves around alcohol. And like, at first you think everyone's paying attention to whether you drink or not. You very quickly learn for the most part they're not. But you just kind of have to make this affirmative choice all the time. Like, I remember learning about SELTZER and bitters, that at a bar you could order seltzer and bitters and like, the bartender would know that that meant you weren't drinking, which just feels good that they're like a comrade. You will have a drink that looks alcoholic. So if you have one friend who's just very rude, they're not going to know to be rude. And it was kind of just like a code that let people around who were also not drinking, like, it kind of put a signal up. But seltzer and bitters took me, I don't know, a month and a half to figure out. And there was all sorts of things like that. And I also noticed that there were friendships I had with buddies who we'd go to the bar and drink and catch up where I could replace that with coffee and it'd be fine. And there were friendships I had where once you took substances out, the friendships just didn't work. Whether it was the person didn't want to see me or we had less to talk about. And it was. It was really surprising.

[A.J. Delario]

Well, I wrote about it in one essay where I describe a lot of those sort of attempts at reconnecting with people as a sober person. And some of the people I said it was kind of just like instead of a catching up period, it was like an exit interview. Right.

[PJ Vogt]

Oh, my God.

[A.J. Delario]

Kind of realizing that we weren't going to be part of each other's lives in any significant way anymore. And, yeah, those are the sort of things that, I mean, year after year I tend to have those sort of relationships kind of fade away in some capacity. And a lot of it is just like, you know, absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I was drinking or sober or whatever. I mean, I think this is the important part of that I'm learning in sobriety, is that I have to remember that I'm a bad memory for a lot of people like that. Like, the interactions that I had had with them kind of left a mark that isn't great.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[A.J. Delario]

And I mean, that is part of this life. I think that there's this natural auditing that kind of happens that I have to kind of get used to.

[PJ Vogt]

Before the small bow, I didn't really read AJ's writing on the Internet. When he talks about how he's a bad memory for a lot of people. I know he partly means in his real life, but I think he also partly means his online one. During his Gawker days, a lot of his work lived up to the site's gawking Making entertainment out of strangers mistakes. The site often functioned by creating the worst day of someone's life so that bored office workers had something to read and comment on. To be fair, Gawker was not alone in this. Commenting wryly on someone else's public humiliation was something many people working on the content production Internet treadmill of 2010-20 he did. Few of us have clean hands here, myself included. A couple years after coming out of rehab in 2018, AJ starts his recovery newsletter, the Small Bow. And it's this newsletter which I would find a year later. The site has a very simple description. We send out essays and illustrations about long term recovery every Tuesday and Friday, end quote. The newsletter has these drawings from Edith Zimmerman, one of the Internet's great voices. In this newsletter, AJ's still AJ. You remember why he was always good at making people pay attention to him online? He's very funny. He has a perfect eye for detail. In the first edition I read in 2019, there's a story about a guy who inexplicably keeps showing up to recovery meetings dressed as the Joker, like from the Batman movies, in a purple suit. And then a while later, another guy, who also doesn't seem to be doing very well, keeps showing up dressed in a Superman costume. And there's a fateful day when the Joker and Superman both show up at a meeting together. I promise, whatever you're imagining is not how the story ends at the Small Bow. What's sort of not funny, but maybe surprising, ironic, is that AJ's still interested in the worst days of other people's lives. It's just now he's there to help, or at least to help understand. So you come out of addiction, you're at peak, if not peak, like you're, you're feeling like deep amounts of self loathing. Yes. How did you. Why did you decide to start the Small Bow like that feels like a really scary, hard thing to do, to start writing about recovery from a deep hole.

[A.J. Delario]

You know when I was talking about that time when I came out of rehab in like early December, and I remember sitting in my apartment in Brooklyn and you know, I don't, I don't know if I was, if I was kind of just lonely or desperate or whatever, but I remember googling, I'm 50 something days sober and I want to run into traffic and I don't know what I was looking for, but I was hoping that something would come up. But I mean, I was just like, I just got out of rehab and I feel really bad about Myself still. And I don't know what to do exactly. I don't want to go to an AA meeting right now. You know, I don't want to, like, you know, I call a friend. Like, it was just, you know, kind of being adrift. And, you know, the only things that came up, and I remember this specifically, were, you know, the suicide hotline number or advertisements for more rehabs. Right. And I guess that was the first sort of kernel that was there where it was just like, oh, if I can figure out a way to actually just, like, you know, get back into publishing again, maybe there's something there that I could actually get into.

[PJ Vogt]

Was it scary? Like, was it scary sort of stepping out on the Internet and saying, like, not like, my name's AJ And I'm a recovery guru, but like, to talk earnestly about something that's hard to publicly say. I'm a person who is trying to. I think sometimes it's hard to say you're trying to figure out how to be a good person, because it can sound like you're saying you are a good person, which is one of the most dangerous things you could say on the Internet.

[A.J. Delario]

Dangerous, yes.

[PJ Vogt]

Did you feel afraid to be working this stuff out publicly?

[A.J. Delario]

100%, yeah. So it was 2018 when I started the Small Bow.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[A.J. Delario]

So I was about two years sober, right?

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[A.J. Delario]

And that is way too early to start a recovery site and just letting people know that I'm 100% aware of that now. But that's like, five years ago now. But, yeah. I mean, it's kind of comical that I thought that was a great idea. I think that one of the parts that I was so paranoid about was that what I was doing was kind of a form of penance that I was asking for and, like, trying to kind of pretend that I was being a better person than I actually was, trying to kind of pander to people. And that was something that I was so paranoid about. And I was always constantly, you know, would write an essay and be like, oh, I can't write this. I have to have someone else do it first. Or just, like, I have to make people aware that I know that you think I'm a piece of shit. Yeah, I'm right there with you sometimes.

[PJ Vogt]

But it's tricky. I know. I have so many friends in recovery, and I know. And some of them are public people, and they don't talk about sobriety in public. And I understand that that is one of the sort of, if not rules, at least strong piece of advice from recovery communities is that if you talk about that stuff in public, you can set yourself up for relapse. And I also appreciate it's hard to learn from people who have figured something out. It's easier to learn from people who are figuring things out, for me at least. And so I appreciate, even though maybe you shouldn't have done it, as someone who really, really cherishes a small bow, just selfishly, I'm glad that you did do it.

[A.J. Delario]

Yeah. I mean, they were all positive sort of feedback. And a lot of people that were interested in participating and helping out and wanted to write for it. And I thought that was really great. And, you know, I mean, I was very, very much of the mindset that I have to, like, hand pick every single person that writes for this in this first year in order for this to go right.

[PJ Vogt]

Why?

[A.J. Delario]

Because I was so concerned about having someone else's voice come in who, like, there were a lot. I'll put it this way. There are a lot of people who had 10 years of sobriety who were basically going to come in and speak from an AA perspective. Right?

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[A.J. Delario]

And I try to just not publish those sort of essays where people are kind of parroting the big book and.

[PJ Vogt]

Along those lines, because it just felt.

[A.J. Delario]

That wasn't what I was looking for that night. You know, I was looking for something that would actually just like, I think, come from a place of really. I still needed things to be wounded. I still needed everyone that. That wrote for to publish that. I still needed them to be wounded in some way. So anyone that was coming with the solution, so to speak, is what they call it. You know, I didn't think that was appropriate.

[PJ Vogt]

Well, my theory for why you find it or for why you might find it helpful to talk to people in tough situations and why you tell people in tough situations that one day they will be consoling someone in a tough situation. Like, the reason I think that that helps, I mean, one, it suggests that there's an after the moment that someone's in, but also any kind of real crisis, whether it's like a public blowup or like the premature death of someone you love or a horrible accident. The thing it does is you feel pulled out of the world and into this darker, other place, and the world is happening above you, and you are in this very lonely and personal hell. Yeah. And the thing that that hell tells you is your experience is too bad to be understood in the rest of human experience. And you will not connect with other people. And if you meet other People you do not want to connect with them because they're in other hells that are even worse than yours. And I think what I hear in that story and what I hear in you talking about this is like, the real truth is that, like, most people's lives go off the rails. They've imagined for them at some point. And when you leave the community of people who are perfectly happy and who everything has worked out for, you enter the community of human beings.

[A.J. Delario]

Yes.

[PJ Vogt]

And your ability to understand and connect with those human beings is, like, really strengthened once you can heal.

[A.J. Delario]

One of the really important conversations for me to hear was I interviewed Jason Blair, and I don't know if you remember Jason Blair and what the context as with him, and he was the New York Times.

[PJ Vogt]

New York Times plagiarism scandal.

[A.J. Delario]

Right, exactly. So I think that was 2003 ish. 4 ish, right. He wrote a memoir about that soon after everything had happened, but has gone on to basically be a life coach. And he and I started talking, and I asked him, you know, would he have written a memoir, knowing what he knew now? And he said, absolutely not. It was the worst decision they ever made because he was writing it, like, out of desperation and fear. And, you know, that was the only way he thought he could make money. But the other thing that he said was that while everything was really hit a lot of heat on him from the Times scandal at that point, and he was going to recovery meetings, and he was afraid to kind of go into some of the Upper west side sort of meetings because he thought he would be recognized. And he said he had this conversation with this one woman there where he was kind of sharing that, like, a little bit, kind of sheepishly, a little bit ashamed of, and just like a little bit sort of like egocentrically, too. And she said to him, there are murderers here. I'm sure you're going to be okay.

[PJ Vogt]

Right.

[A.J. Delario]

And it was just like this wonderful level setting sort of thing where it's just like, oh, yeah. I mean, just like, you know, there are people who have kind of just like, you know, lived these absolutely just, you know, had these horrific sort of situations in their lives and may have been murderers. And I am not one of those. And, you know, just to kind of remember that, okay, well, they have a life that they can kind of be proud of now, too. Right. And, yeah, so it was. It was really important for me to hear that. And I always remember that when I go into any sort of meeting was just like, oh, yeah, there are murderers here.

[PJ Vogt]

It's funny. It's probably the only context where there are murderers. Here is something someone says to calm down and feel good.

[A.J. Delario]

Yeah. But it's so great because it was instant humility. Right? And I think I got that early on, too, in, like, recovery, especially when, you know, I was in Florida and I'm in the thick of the Hogan trial.

[PJ Vogt]

Trial.

[A.J. Delario]

And going to these meetings and thinking everyone in the room knew about this trial, and all eyes are on me. And just like, you know, here I was being brave and raising my hand at these meetings, and, boy, are I important. And. Yeah, and it's hearing, like, these people with real problems who had, like, lost loved ones and lost jobs and houses and all those things, and just, like, being like, yeah, I'm not really that interesting in this situation.

[PJ Vogt]

I have never been to an AA meeting. I've never been to rehab, but I have spent time in a psychiatric unit, which, as far as I can tell, seems a bit similar. I still think about my time there. I remember what it was like to be trapped in a place where the only thing I was really allowed to do was the thing I least wanted to, where all I could do was think. I will say I feel gratitude for these rooms in America that most people hope to never wind up in. Rooms where you can talk to other people who have made real mistakes. Rooms where no one really judges, where your problems, however big, are always dwarfed by someone else's. I want to acknowledge that. Dry January, my slight and questionable news peg this week, is a pretty silly reason to talk about any of this. Dry January is the time of year when many people stop drinking because they'd like to lose a little weight or challenge themselves or just to see. But I do think some of those people are actually up to something else. I think they're finding a way to ask themselves questions that can just be too scary to face head on. Am I really okay? Is this all still working for me? The reason I wanted to talk to you at this time of the year is that for many years around New Year's, you've sent out this newsletter called it's okay if you're not ready. Can you just tell me the story that you tell in that essay, like, what's in that newsletter?

[A.J. Delario]

Sure. I mean, it kind of goes back to what we were talking about in those early days of me coming home from rehab. So this is 2015 December, and like I said, I was very much afraid in a lot of ways about what I was supposed to be as a person now. And what the holidays were going to look like. Right. And. And again, I remember feeling, like, so sad and desperate to be some place else. Right. And wanting to kind of just, like, you know, not be in my apartment, not be in my body, not be, like, you know, in whatever sort of, you know, friend group I was in. I just didn't want to be there. But I also didn't want to be sober. But I also knew that I was staring down kind of this very important date. Right. Which is January 1st. And I remember being so sad that I was never going to potentially have another New Year's. That was fun again, right?

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[A.J. Delario]

Like, I mean, that kind of just, you know, hit me square in the jaw in that moment. And I was just like, God, I don't want to drink soda right now. You know, I know. I don't want to just go home and watch a movie or watch the Godfather or whatever. I don't know. I mean, it was just so much stuff that I felt, like, completely on the sidelines about, and I was just like, this is not the life I want. And I was like, yeah, I'm not ready to be sober. And, you know, I didn't, like, relapse the next day, but I couldn't 100% kind of commit to something that I really wasn't ready for at that point. And that was just, like, this moment where I was just like. I think most people got. Have come upon January 1st and thinking that their lives need to change in this sort of fashion and feel like failures if it doesn't happen. And that's a tough conversation to have with people. This is my attempt to basically have that conversation with people and say, yeah, you're fine. Right? That's it.

[PJ Vogt]

You know, like, if you're not. If it's not working yet, that's okay.

[A.J. Delario]

That's okay. It's 100% okay. Yeah, I mean, it's just like, you know, good job, good effort. I think the greatest thing about AA more than anything is that, like, you can be a part of it, and you could have, like, two years of sobriety, and then, like, one night you can absolutely just, like, get completely blasted and just, like, you know, have your car and run into a building, and then the next day you can go there and everyone will clap.

[PJ Vogt]

Right.

[A.J. Delario]

Right. You know, and. And that's. It's an amazing thing. So, I mean, this is my way of at least extending that hand out to people to say to them, just like, yeah, I'm going to kind of run this essay every single year in the off chance that someone is Googling like I was that very lonely night in, in early December when I thought that no one else could understand me or understand exactly what I needed at that point. And not knowing myself what I needed that, like, okay, maybe this essay will connect to them.

[PJ Vogt]

I feel like what you're describing when you say you can crash a car and come in the next day and people applaud, it's like you're talking about Grace.

[A.J. Delario]

Yes.

[PJ Vogt]

And it's just like a very hard thing to find in, in a reliable way. Maybe outside of your own family.

[A.J. Delario]

Yeah. Yeah. And. And I don't think I. I never grew up with that. My, my family was punishing. Yeah. You know, but. Yeah, I mean, just learning how to have that. And I mean, I. I try to provide that as much as I possibly can, both with my children, with myself and with my wife and with anybody that's kind of part of this little community that has kind of built up due to this newsletter.

[PJ Vogt]

After a short break, I ask an uncomfortable question.

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[PJ Vogt]

Welcome back to the show. So to be honest with you, by this point in the conversation, actually asking AJ the title question of this episode felt dumb. But rules are rules. We have a format. And so I asked it. If you ever hear me more uncomfortable asking a question on the show, please let me know. So the question that I came to you with, when do you know that it's time to stop drinking?

[A.J. Delario]

Yeah. Who's asking? Right? I mean, that's the thing. It's just like. I mean, that's like in your mind, who is asking this question?

[PJ Vogt]

I think, I think. I mean, I think what you're saying is that it's highly personal and that rather than focusing on January 1, what your message would be is like, if you have the inclination that this might be the right choice for you, it's.

[A.J. Delario]

Probably the right choice.

[PJ Vogt]

Right, right.

[A.J. Delario]

And it's a lot more serious than basically a resolution. I mean, it's an absolute kind of just complete Just full scale change. I mean, it's a tear down.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah. So this year I'm doing Dry January. I feel slightly uncomfortable with Dry January. How do you feel as someone, you know, who is committed to the world of serious sobriety and sobriety is a tear down. How do you feel about Dry January?

[A.J. Delario]

I feel that it's fine. I mean, I, I, it's, it's, I mean, it's, it's honestly like I was trying to kind of think of some way to compare it without sounding like a dick. Like a dick. Right. Because I don't want to sound like a dick because I think it's, it's, it's great that anyone wants to kind of better themselves and whatever capacity that is. But like asking, you know, an alcoholic or someone that's in active recovery, just like, you know, every single day of their life, right. About Dry January, I think is like the equivalent of having someone who like runs a turkey trot every single year.

[PJ Vogt]

You're going to compare this, a turkey trot to a marathon. Exactly where you were going.

[A.J. Delario]

It wasn't even a marathon. Like, as someone who's just like, you know, kind of like Usain Bolt, you know, like, I mean, like. Yeah, not on the same level, man. You know, I mean, it's just like we have different goals here.

[PJ Vogt]

Yeah.

[A.J. Delario]

And, and that's okay. But yeah, I think that the Dry January has very little to do with sobriety.

[PJ Vogt]

Sometimes you go to someone with a question not realizing you still have basic wrong headed assumptions about what the words you're using even mean, like sobriety. Depending on my mood, it can mean for me something. I'm proud of the people in my life for doing something. I wonder if I should do something I hope I don't have to do. Mainly though, I think of it as not doing something. Abstaining. Talking to AJ I realized for him, abstinence is like the first and in some ways least interesting part of the whole deal. For him, real sobriety means trying to see yourself clearly, trying to evolve. And then this sounds like the hardest part, to do this while offering yourself the kind of compassion you'd want from your parents or from God.

[A.J. Delario]

So when I first got sober and coming out of rehab, and I think this is part of the struggle that most people have when they kind of just try to get sober, is you're dealing with a person who absolutely hates you more than anyone on the planet earth, and you're kind of stuck with that person.

[PJ Vogt]

Right.

[A.J. Delario]

And trying to kind of make friends with that person is Very, very difficult it was for me. And I had to kind of just do a lot of extra work on top of just like showing up to 12 step meetings I had to do. I had to get a therapist, I had to get on medication, I had to do meditation, all that stuff in order to start, like, maybe getting 1% more in the direction of basically liking myself more than I hate myself. I would say I'm about 50, 50 now.

[PJ Vogt]

It's weird because it's also like, if you come out of a crisis, you're sort of like, there's this person inside me who tried to kill me.

[A.J. Delario]

Yes.

[PJ Vogt]

And he's also me. And the first instinct is I gotta get as far away from that person as possible. I have to kind of destroy them. And in a way, I think you do. I think the people who get better evolve in a way where the people they were are a little alien to them. But also you have to love that person. If you're trying to kill that person, you're also that person and you're trying to kill yourself. It's really hard.

[A.J. Delario]

Yeah, no, it is. And I think that there's just like a lot of stuff that I work through in therapy is just actually just caring for that person. That worst version of yourself that was so broken, and then trying to kind of look at them with a little more kindness. And that's really kind of just like where I'm starting to look at that a lot more. I think saying that out loud is still hard for me to say that I'm trying to learn how to love myself.

[PJ Vogt]

Right.

[A.J. Delario]

But I am. And. And that is exactly just like where I have to start every single day. Because if I don't, then I'm kind of starting a little bit in the red.

[PJ Vogt]

Right. A.J. delario, he's trying year round, not just in January. He writes the Small Bow newsletter which you can find at www.thesmallbow.substack.com. aJ thank you.

[A.J. Delario]

Absolutely. Hope this was helpful.

[PJ Vogt]

Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt and Shruti Pinamaneni and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact checking by Sean Merchant. Theme, original composition and mixing by Armin Bazarian. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss Berman and Leah Rees Dennis. Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Pirello and John Schmidt. And to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Matt Casey, Kate Hutchison, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis Court Courtney and Hilary Schupf. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at uta. Our social media is by the team at Public Opinion NYC. Follow and listen to Search Engine with PJVote now for free on the Odysee app or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, that's it for us this week. Thank you for listening. We will see you next week.