Who is the most underrated SEC coach? Why it might just be Josh Heupel

Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: SEC Football Unfiltered
Episode: Who is the most underrated SEC coach? Why it might just be Josh Heupel
Date: July 22, 2026
Hosts: Blake Toppmeyer & John Adams

This episode dives deep into the annual debate about under-appreciated SEC coaches, focusing sharply on Tennessee’s Josh Heupel. With a lively mix of banter, historical context, and critical analysis, the hosts discuss why Heupel continues to be overlooked in national coach rankings despite an impressive record, dissect the methodologies behind media voting, and branch into broader conversations about other notable SEC and national coaches. The episode also debates the broader culture and priorities influencing college football coach perceptions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Enigma of Josh Heupel’s National Reputation

• Opening Challenge (00:02): Blake details Heupel’s resume:
  • Never a losing season
  • Took Tennessee to the 2024 College Football Playoff
  • Beat Alabama twice
• Blake is perplexed that he ranked Heupel 14th nationally but Heupel finished 24th in the USA Today national rankings:
  • Coaches like Kenny Dillingham (Arizona State), Rhett Lashley (SMU), and even Clark Lea (Vanderbilt) inexplicably ranked higher (01:30).
• Quote (Blake, 01:04):
  • “Why do I have Josh Heupel 14th nationally on my ballot? And yet the tabulation... has Heupel at 24th nationally?”

2. The Flaws in the Voting Process—and the Panel’s Jabs

• John bemoans not being on the voting panel, suggesting he’d love to have the authority to critique the votes (02:07–03:43).
• Memorable Moment (John, 03:43):
  • “My gosh, I covered Bear Bryant. Who else in that poll has that?”
• Hosts joke about manipulating the process for John to get a vote (03:22).

3. Heupel’s Rebuilding Feat at Tennessee

• John breaks down Heupel’s true achievement: turning around a program in shambles post-Jeremy Pruitt, dealing with mass attrition and transfers, installing an innovative offense, and quickly producing wins (04:26–07:16).
• Quote (John, 06:14):
  • “Hypo has to come in, bring in a very, very different, very innovative offense, find a quarterback... He did all that, won seven games.”

4. Why National Respect Eludes Heupel

• Discussion about Tennessee’s historical expectations—people assume “Tennessee’s supposed to be good,” leading the media to downplay their ascent (07:16).
• Heupel’s personality is brought up:
  • Polite but not media-friendly or dynamic
  • Makes little effort in media events and thus loses the “talking season” (07:44–09:28).
• Quote (John, 07:55):
  • “He’s polite, but he says nothing. He gives you nothing to work with. He just doesn’t care.”

5. Comparing Heupel to Other Coaches Ranked Ahead

• Blake scrutinizes the resumes of Dillingham and Lashley, finding them less impressive than Heupel’s (09:30–10:58).
• Notes Heupel’s consistent winning at both UCF and Tennessee: “He’s had eight winning seasons... Four of his eight have been double-digit wins” (10:17).

6. The Impact of “Down Years” and Recency Bias

• Blake analyzes why some panelists may be swayed by a single “down year,” despite Heupel still achieving an 8–5 mark (11:00–13:06).
• Quote (Blake, 12:46):
  • “I don’t know that 8–5 was so terribly bad that I was knocking him out of my top 15.”

7. Extending the Debate: Eli Drinkwitz & Dan Mullen

• Blake points out Missouri’s Eli Drinkwitz as similarly underrated, despite consistent improvement and galvanizing the fanbase (14:00–17:50).
  • Missouri’s “29 wins in three years is commendable” (14:35).
  • Facility and atmosphere improvements at Missouri noted (16:41–17:58).
• Dan Mullen’s career is unpacked: consistently winning at Mississippi State and Florida, but perhaps overlooked because of one bad season and shifting administrative priorities (19:59–26:32).
• Quote (Blake, 23:37):
  • “If Dan Mullen was up for it, I’d be interested to see him in the Big Ten or the SEC again.”

8. Changing Trends in Hiring—Blank Slates vs. Proven Winners

• Discussion of the “Kurt Signetti effect”: ADs want the next hot up-and-comer rather than proven winners who’ve been fired elsewhere (27:20–30:40).
• Quote (John, 29:42):
  • “Better hire someone with a blank slate... because when you... bring someone in, all the negatives... are magnified.”

9. SEC vs. Big Ten Coaching Depth

• Compare the recent talent additions to the Big Ten vs. the SEC's promoted and imported coaches—Big Ten arguably ahead (47:44–48:48).
• Quote (John, 47:45):
  • “We’re praising some of these guys, but a while back we talked about the Big Ten probably has better coaches right now.”

10. Evaluating the “Overrated” Coaches

• Blake questions if Lane Kiffin (ranked 6th) or Mike Elko (13th) are overrated—John disagrees, each coach’s context and resources matter (35:36–39:30).
• Resume context: Kiffin’s results at limited-resource schools vs. coaches with elite resources (38:20).

11. The Dilemma of Dabo Swinney’s Legacy

• Ranking Dabo is hard due to his prior dynasty but declining recent performance and refusal to adapt to NIL and the portal (48:49–53:51).
• Quote (John, 51:03):
  • “It’s as though we’re dealing with Dabo Light now... but you know what? If you took away the dynasty at Clemson... what Clemson has now is still better than that.”

12. Final Thoughts—Bandwagons, Critique, and Future Watch

• Blake and John acknowledge they’re not perpetual partisans: “When it’s time to get off [the bandwagon], we’re the first ones off” (53:52).
• The duo promise that if Heupel or Drinkwitz stumble, they’ll be among the earliest to critique (54:21–54:23).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Blake (01:04): “Why do I have Josh Heupel 14th nationally on my ballot? And yet... has Heupel at 24th nationally?”
• John (03:43): “My gosh, I covered Bear Bryant. Who else in that poll has that?”
• John (06:14): “Hypo has to come in, bring in a very... innovative offense, find a quarterback... He did all that, won seven games.”
• John (07:55): “He’s polite, but he says nothing. He gives you nothing to work with. He just doesn’t care.”
• Blake (10:17): “He’s had eight winning seasons... Four of his eight have been double-digit wins.”
• Blake (23:37): “If Dan Mullen was up for it, I’d be interested to see him in the Big Ten or the SEC again.”
• John (29:42): “Better hire someone with a blank slate... when you bring someone in... negatives are magnified.”
• John (47:45): “We’re praising some of these guys, but... the Big Ten probably has better coaches right now.”
• John (51:03): “It’s as though we’re dealing with Dabo Light now... but you know what? If you took away the dynasty at Clemson... what Clemson has now is still better than that.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Heupel’s Resume: 00:02–02:07
• Voting Process & Panel Banter: 02:07–03:43
• Heupel’s Rebuild at Tennessee: 04:26–07:16
• Personality & National Perception: 07:16–09:28
• Comparative Resume Analysis: 09:28–10:58
• Recency Bias & Down Years: 11:00–13:06
• Drinkwitz & Missouri’s Progress: 14:00–18:22
• Dan Mullen’s Legacy: 19:59–27:20
• Trends in Coaching Hires: 27:20–30:40
• Potential Overrated Coaches: 35:36–42:06
• Dabo Swinney’s Dilemma: 48:49–53:51
• Final Thoughts on Critique: 53:51–54:23

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Episode Takeaways

• Josh Heupel remains arguably the most underrated coach in the SEC. His calm, low-key persona and Tennessee’s past history may obscure an elite body of work.
• SEC coach rankings are subject to just as much personality, recency, and procedural bias as any poll, sometimes undervaluing proven overachievers or overvaluing “blank slates.”
• Current hiring trends in the SEC favor up-and-comers and potential over proven winners who may not be perceived as glamorous or “hot.”
• Broader assessment: The Big Ten, through recent hires, may now boast more coaching depth and top-20 talent than the SEC.
• Future watch: Heupel, Drinkwitz, and others remain at a critical juncture. Media perception could swing rapidly, and the podcast promises to call it as they see it.

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This episode is essential listening for SEC fans wanting a deeper, insider context on how coach reputations are built (and overlooked), and on the quirks and culture of college football’s opinion-makers.

Transcript

[A]

Josh Hypo has never had a losing season. He's taken Tennessee to the College football playoff in 2024. He's beat Alabama twice. So why does the Tennessee coach not get more respect nationally? It's a question that puzzles me a little bit. We will discuss today whether Josh Hyple is the most underrated coach in the SEC here on this edition of SEC Football Unfiltered, our podcast from the USA TODAY network, Blake Topmire alongside John Adams. We are back from vacation and in the throes of the run up to the college football season. John, one part of the annual run up to the college football season is everybody's got to do their top 25 coach rankings. We did these. It's a rite of passage of summer, right? We did these@usa today earlier this month. They published while I was on vacation in Greece and I popped open the link to have a read because, you know, I don't know, I vote in this ranking, but I don't know how my colleagues are going to vote. I don't know how the ballot's going to turn out. And I always like to see like who did. I kind of overvalue, undervalue as compared to my colleagues. And I'm looking through this list and I'm thinking, where on earth is Josh Hyple in these rankings? I ranked Josh Hyple 14th on my ballot nationally of coaches and the final tabulation of all of us that voted at USA Today, it was a team of 10 voters wound up with Josh Hypel 24th in the nation. Coaches ranked ahead of him include Arizona State's Kenny Dillingham, SMU's Rhett Lashley, Florida's John Sumrall, who's not coached a game yet in the sec. And one spot ahead of Josh Hypo is Clark Lee of Vanderbilt. What am I missing here, John? Why do I have Josh hypo 14th nationally on my ballot? And yet the tabulation, including all my colleagues votes, has hypo at 24th nationally.

[B]

Before we discuss what you're missing, let's talk about what the poll was missing. Me.

[A]

Maybe that's the issue.

[B]

I mean, seriously, Blake, with your influence, your position, your status with this company next year, I really would appreciate it if you say, you know, John Adams really needs to be included in this. We do our SEC Unfiltered podcast. We're kind of a big deal in the company.

[A]

Maybe we like to keep you as sort of an ombudsman. Maybe that's why you don't get to vote is. Then you can be the ombudsman. We can come in here on the pod, and you can tell us what we. What we did wrong.

[B]

Here's. Okay, here's what I'd like. I'd like for you to use your. Use your power and influence and get me so that they agree that I should be included on the panel. And then they ask me, and I'll say no. I don't really have time for that. I will. I respectfully decline, but thanks for asking.

[A]

Which is exactly what would happen.

[B]

And then I can criticize what you guys come up with. How's that? I mean, seriously, I wish you'd do that. Blake, I'm not kidding here. I want you to do that.

[A]

Okay, I'll try to flex.

[B]

Would you write that down somewhere? Don't just blow it off.

[A]

Okay, Writing it down right now. Okay. I got my yellow legal pack.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's going in there. Get John a vote in the annual top 25 ballot written down.

[B]

I mean, my gosh, I covered Bear Bryant. Who else in that poll has that?

[A]

My colleagues probably forgot that you're still doing this. John Adams.

[B]

Oh, yeah. He used to cover Bear.

[A]

Brian. He's not.

[B]

Yeah, he died several years. He lived longer than the Bear, but he died several years ago. Right now. What it. What are they. You're. I. I. Listen, I got your listing and how you rank the coaches, and. Yeah, I. I was. I thought you were right on target on these guys. And I don't know what these other people are thinking, who they are, why they're even with the company. Maybe they shouldn't be.

[A]

Well, that's a little harsh there, John.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We think the world of my colleagues.

[B]

Well, yeah, and I'm. I'm sure they're doing the best they can, but. Yeah, I mean, Clark Lee won 10 games at Vanderbilt. That's great. And I certainly rate him higher than I did when I thought he was about to be fired. He's done a nice job there. You win 10 games at Vanderbilt, you get my attention. But he doesn't. He hasn't accomplished what Josh Hyple did. Not only is Josh Hypo had five consecutive winning seasons, made the playoff once, he's averaged about nine games, nine wins a year. You have to go back to really properly evaluate him and look at the state of the program when he was hired. Jeremy Pruitt was in charge.

[A]

Jeremy Pruitt ostensibly in charge. I mean, well, I'm not sure anybody was really in charge.

[B]

Yeah, I use that term extraordinarily. Loosely, but, yeah. He was named head coach by athletic director Phil.

[A]

You could barely even get those words.

[B]

I mean, seriously, that was almost like kind of a joke, wasn't it? That whole process? But, yeah, but Josh Hyple, he. He had 10 starters transferred out. Now, I don't know if they were told to transfer because you're probably gonna. You might have committed some. There might have been some violations committed your time while you were here. I mean, Hypo just left the program in disarray. He did leave a few good players, but there was a total attrition. Hypo has to come in, bring it, introduce a very, very different, very innovative offense, find a quarterback. You didn't know who his quarterback was. He did all that, won seven games. And then the next year was it one. Number one in the country at one point before things went south. But aside from a horrific upset loss to South Carolina, he was in contention for the College Football Playoff when it was a four team deal. So, yeah, Josh Hypo has done. It's one of the better turnarounds we've seen. And I don't know why that's kind of ignored. Maybe because people look at Tennessee like, well, Tennessee is supposed to be good, even though it hadn't for that long stretch when you went from Pruitt to Butch Jones to Derrick Dooley. It's as though the images will. Tennessee supposed to be good.

[A]

Yeah. Even though they hadn't been for more than a decade.

[B]

I know. So I also wonder, Blake, when we're involved in SEC football media days now and it's a talking show, it's. Josh Hypo has absolutely no interest in that. No, he doesn't even try.

[A]

He's polite, but.

[B]

Oh, he's polite, but he's, you know,

[A]

is he media friendly or not? Like, he's got that Midwest polite thing

[B]

going on, but he doesn't care.

[A]

But he. And he doesn't say anything like, no. You know, he's polite, but he says nothing. He gives you nothing to work with. So.

[B]

Yeah, and he doesn't care, but. And even when he's on, he's better when he's on with the panel of analysts for the SEC network. This is, after all, a TV show. That's what Media Dave's days has become. And he's better there than he is just up there at the bottom. When he's up there at the podium, I mean, his mind's probably back in Knoxville. A diagram and a trick play he's been thinking about. I. I Just, he just doesn't care. And I think that impacts people, his, his image, they just dynamic. Have you ever heard anybody say Josh Hypo's dynamic?

[A]

I mean, maybe as an offensive mind, but as a personality? No, he doesn't come across that way.

[B]

But I mean I listen to these guys and I, I thought. Never really listened to Will Stein, Kentucky's new coach, the Oregon offensive coordinator. That's where he really made a name for himself, I thought. Came across really strong, really confident, just what you need when you're taking a job at Kentucky. Thought he made a really good impression and he was trying to make an impression and some of these other coaches do. I think Josh Hypo makes less effort at that than any of these coaches. And maybe that's a factor, maybe not. But that's, that's my take because it is. If you look at his body of

[A]

work,

[B]

I don't know why you would have him ranked below some of these other guys.

[A]

I don't either. I mean Josh Hybett, you mentioned his five straight winning seasons at Tennessee, made the playoff in 2024. Now true, he got trounced in the first round by Ohio State, but he did make the playoff that year. If there had been a 12 team playoff in 2022, the year with Hin and Hooker, he would have made the playoff that year. You add in his tenure at UCF. Year three wasn't great at UCF, but still, Hypo's had eight seasons as a head coach, including UCF. He's had eight winning seasons. Four of his eight seasons he's reached double digit wins, 10 plus wins. Half the time you look at Kenny Dillingham, he's been the Arizona State coach for three years, had one really good year, got into the playoffs. But the body of work is nothing like what Josh Hypo has. Rhett Lashley's been the SSMU coach for four years, set a couple of double digit win seasons in there, made the playoff one time, got trounced in the first round. But now I think those guys are good coaches. I think they're top 25 caliber coaches. But to have them ranked several spots ahead of Hypo, I truly don't get it, John. And I don't know I'm the outlier because like I said, 10 people voted in this. If I voted hypo 14th and he wound up 24 in our top 25, that must mean some of my colleagues didn't have him in the top 25 at all.

[B]

So I, I agree with you, I

[A]

guess I'm the outlier John. And what's interesting is I never really have considered myself like the president of the Hypo fan club. I respect him a lot as a coach. I think he's a good coach. But like, I kind of fell down the rabbit hole with guys like Dan Mullen and nobody talks up Jeff Braum, the Louisville coach, formerly the coach at Purdue, more than. More than I do. I mean, we kind of make that a running joke, right? That really I'm just the. I'm a columnist masquerading as the agent for Dan Mullen and Jeff Braum. Of course, that's, That's a joke. But I, I've always really valued those guys probably more than a lot of my peers in the industry. On my ballot of top 25 coaches, heck, I had Jeff Braum number 10, the Louisville coach. He wound up number 17 in our overall ballot. So apparently I'm still carrying the water for Jeff Braum, but I've never felt like a guy who was just over the top carrying the water for Josh Hypo. I just think he's a good coach. I think He's a top 15 coach. Last year was his worst year at Tennessee. Not by record, but when you consider everything that was working against him in year one and he went seven and six. I think last year going eight and five was really worse than, than him going eight and six or going seven and six in year one with. With all the adversity he was facing. So I do sort of wonder maybe some of my colleagues more voted a little bit more on recent results and the fact that last year was a down year for Hypo. That might explain why he's 24th. And maybe I wasn't so swayed by one down year. He still went 8 and 5. Didn't have any marquee wins. But you know, I didn't think that 8 and 5 was so terribly bad that I was knocking him out of my top 15. But I don't know that one of any of the. The rankings my ballot versus, you know, the way it all shook out, that that was the one that jumped out to me most was was having hypo 14 and then him being 24 over overall in this top 25.

[B]

You just gave me a great idea. Next. Next year, not only do you recommend and strongly promote me for a spot among the voters, get the names of all the voters and find out how they voted and so we can ridicule them one by one on our podcast.

[A]

This seems like A fast track to a layoff.

[B]

No, they're not laying you off, Blake. You're too big. You're too big for that. Okay.

[A]

How about you? Moving on.

[B]

Yeah, never. Never mind that.

[A]

Never mind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, one more, John. And I want to see. So you tend to agree with me, I guess that, yeah, you would have Josh hypo closer to 14 than you would to 24. Correct?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Okay. So one more for you, Eli Drinkwitz, the Missouri Coach. I have drink 21 on my ballot in this USA Today top 25. I was just one of 10 ballots. Drink is on my unranked. I look at his Missouri tenure and in the last three, he's been there. He's going into year seven. He's the second longest tenured coach in the SEC behind Kirby Smart. How about that? We live in a world where Eli Drinks is the second longest tenured coach, but he's done a really, really solid job the last three years at Missouri. He's won 29 games last three years. And if you know Missouri's history, as I know you do, 29 wins in a three year span, that's commendable, that's applaudable at Missouri. Now, I wouldn't have Drink in my top 15, but I thought he was solidly a top 25 coach. I voted for him 21. He's unranked in this top 25. Do you think I'm missing something there?

[B]

No. And, and I've never been, I've never been beating the drums for Elijah Inkowitz. I go, he's one of those guys I kind of go back and forth on and think, man, this guy might be pretty good. And then I think, nah. And here's something that Hypo and Drinkowicz do have a couple of things they have in common. They're known as offensive coaches. The other thing, though, on this interim schedule that the SEC outlined, I thought Missouri and Tennessee both got the benefit of the doubt. They both got very favorable schedules last year. Hypo didn't beat a good team. You look at last year's SEC season for Tennessee or just their whole body of work and just say, okay, what's the marquee win for Tennessee last year?

[A]

Beating 5 and 7. Kentucky was their marquee win.

[B]

A team they've beaten a team they've beaten 38 out of the last 41 times. So. And with Drinkowitz, I see the same thing. I think people look at Missouri, well, it had a favorable schedule, but it's really, we even the record that the record was inflated and it's really not that good. And there were some down down seasons under Drinkwoods. I look at all that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Early on. So. But I look at that and think about what he had to deal with. It's a different situation than the one Hypo came into. But Missouri football, other than Vanderbilt probably had the worst facilities in the sec. It didn't. It's stadium in particular. I guess I'm. When I say facilities, maybe I'm thinking to stay. It didn't seem like an SEC stadium.

[A]

I agree. Yeah.

[B]

And covering a couple of games there. I just didn't think the fan base seemed like an SEC fan base.

[A]

They're not.

[B]

However, in the last few years that fan base has become much more energized. I think normally people that might have skipped a game to go out and kill a deer. You. You know how that goes.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

In that part of the world said no, you know what? I'm gonna, I'm gonna let the deers live. Let the deer live. And I'll. I'll go to football game. Watch, watch my Tigers.

[A]

You're so right for O. Field has become a pretty tough venue.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

On opposing teams the last several years during the Drink era. Yeah.

[B]

It's. It's a different venue than what it was when Missouri came into the league. Not even close. And so I got to give him some credit for that. He's also. He's folksy, he's got folksy humor and he comes across really well on tv. He, he's just a different type guy. He's entertaining.

[A]

Yeah. I'm surprised he wasn't, you know, at the bottom end of this top 25 that we put out from. From USA Today. Again, I did my part. I voted him 21 here again. I wonder if. If some of my colleagues maybe were factoring in recency a little bit more. I mentioned the 29 wins in the last three seasons, but this past year we was not as good as the two years that that came before it in 2023 and 2024. Missouri was very formidable. I mean they were top 25 program those two years. Last year went eight and five. A little bit of a. Of a step back. Of course they, they had the injury to Beau Prabula, their quarterback midway through the season and I thought that changed the type of team that they were. I mean they were really playing with one hand behind their back. After that injury to Perbueler. They were a run oriented team anyway with Ahmad Hardy, but without Prabula it was really just, you know, hand the ball off and. And when that inevitably stalled, send out the punt team. So. But still going 8 and 5 last year, I wonder if. If that maybe hurt drink. Whereas 21 wins the. The two years before that. But still, I think He's a top 25 coach. And when I asked myself, you know, if. If I were hiring for a job in the SEC and I could have a Josh Hypo, or I could have an Eli Drinkwitz, or I could have someone who hasn't coached in this league, like a Kenny Dillingham who had that, that great year at Arizona State, and I think he's a good coach. I give him credit. But I wouldn't trade Josh Hyple. If I'm Tennessee for Kenny Dillingham. I wouldn't trade Josh Hypo for Rhett Lashley. And if I'm Missouri, I don't think I'd trade Eli Drinkwood for either of those guys. I mean, they've seen proof of concept with Drink. He's getting it done inside the sec. These other guys look like good coaches. They're earlier in their tenures. They're in easier conferences. I don't know what they do in the SEC. I think they're top 25 coaches, but I sure wouldn't trade Hypo for one of those guys. And I don't think I'd trade Drink for one of those guys either.

[B]

Do you think last season when we had all these coaching vacancies in this, in the sec, how interested were some of these other SEC schools in Eli Drinkowitz? Do you. Do you think. Did Florida. How serious was Florida about Eli Drinkowitz? What about Auburn?

[A]

Yeah, I don't. I don't know if either ever got that far because I think when Florida whiffed on Kiffin Summerall was sort of the backup plan, and it never had to go any further than that. Auburn, I don't know. I don't know why there wasn't more traction there with drinking. Auburn, I. I kind of like the Auburn higher. We've talked a lot about Alex Golish in previous episodes. I think we're very curious about what he can do there. So I don't. I don't dislike the hired Auburn, but. But I think Drink would have been a good one. Would Drink have left Missouri for Auburn? I don't know that he would have. You know, if you're ranking jobs, the Auburn job ranks higher than Missouri, but in the last several years, Missouri's been a much better program than Auburn has. And the expectations at Missouri are not what they are at Auburn. So you know, if I'm drink I'm. And I had the chance to leave for Auburn, I don't know that I would have done it anyway.

[B]

I think Auburn would be a great fit for Drinkwitz.

[A]

You think?

[B]

But. But I also thought it was a really good fit for Hugh Freeze.

[A]

Right. The less said the better about how that went.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

One more for you, John. And I mentioned him earlier. Last two years I've had Dan Mullen in my top 25. When. When I'm asked to fill out my ballot. Last two years Dan Mullen and has not been ranked in the top 25. Now that one doesn't surprise me. I have historically rated Dan Mullen higher than many of my peers in the journalism industry. I'm still doing that. He's not ranked in this usa today top 25, but for the second year in a row he was on my ballot. I had Dan mullen at number 20 on my ballot was one of the few group of six coaches that I had in my top 25. I don't think he was the only one. No, he wasn't. But he was one of the few group of six coaches I had. I mean I think Dan Mullen, look, He had the one bad season at Florida. It got him fired 20, 21. I think he probably deserved to be fired. Recruiting was not trending in a, in a good direction. Now the Billy Napier experiment was far worse than anything Dan Mullen ever did. But I think it was fair that Florida fired him. But you look at the body of work of his career, I mean the guy was a revelation for Mississippi State. The fact that he ever had Mississippi staying State ranked number one in the country, that does not get enough credit. You know, a dozen years later that year with Dak Prescott and It wasn't a one off. You know, he had state winning 8, 9, 10 games with regularity which as you know, very difficult to do with that level of consistency. Then he goes to Florida. The first two years there were really strong. Regressed a little bit in 2020, but still pretty solid. And then you know, the bottom fell out in, in 2021. But then he comes into UNLV last year and and swiftly win on the heels of what Barry Odom did there. And now you and I both think UNLV is one of the top candidates to make the 12 team playoff this year as the Group of Six representatives. So for me I without hesitation say Dan Mullen is a top 25 coach. And actually in, in this era of transfer free agency, I'd be curious to see what he could do at a Big Ten or an SEC program. Again, you know, he wasn't recruiting at the level that Florida desired. But now with transfers you don't necessarily have to make your living with top five recruiting classes. I think if Dan Mullen was up for it, I'd be interested to see him in the Big Ten or the sec.

[B]

Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly. He, he didn't just have a, a really good one year at Mississippi State, he won consistently there.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And people also forget at Florida they remember the bad, the ending in the last team. But he played in the SEC championship game.

[A]

Yeah, if there had been a 12 team playoff, he would have made it his first two years. And in 2020, I don't recall exactly where they were, but they would have been. I think they might have been in it in 2020 as well. So if there had been a 12 team playoff, I think Mullen would have made it three out of the four years.

[B]

I think Dan Mullen's problem wasn't necessarily of his own making. We were coming into the, this was a transitional period in college football where NIL is suddenly becoming a power force. And I don't think Florida had its NIL house in order at all. I think if it would have been as well situated as say maybe Tennessee, when go back and look at Josh Hypo everybody knew was a good offensive coach, thought that there were questions about how good a recruiter he would be. Well, he comes to Tennessee and Tennessee gets its NIL program cranked up pretty well and he's done fine in recruiting much better than Mullen did. But see, I think if Florida would have had its act together early on with nil, it could have, it could have supplied Mullen with more talent and maybe his shortcomings in recruiting wouldn't have been as much of a factor. I don't think coaches have to have be a great recruiter.

[A]

Now the other thing is Mullen wasn't recruiting terribly. He just wasn't recruiting like Urban Meyer. I mean he was signing top 15 classes with regularity. And now you add in the transfer free agency. If you're at a program like a Florida or Tennessee or, or Texas A and M and you're signing top 12, top 10, top 15 classes, but you're also getting like a top three or four or five transfer class. You know that that's a ticket to success. We saw that from Lane kiffin@ole miss so again if transfer free agency had been what it is now back when Mullen was at Florida would have been curious to see what he could could do there long term.

[B]

Do you think he'll get another chance at a in a Power 4 conference?

[A]

I don't know. I don't know. I think, I think because of the success of Kurt Signetti there is an urge now from everyone to find the next Signetti. And I think it's harder to justify someone who's been fighting fired to to harder to justify hiring someone who's been fired from a, a Super 2 job, a Big 10 or an SEC job. When your fan bases now, I think say go out and find the next Signetti. You know, because Indiana went from the outhouse to the penthouse by hiring JMU's coach, I think a lot of fans and boosters would say let's take a chance on a guy who we don't know what his ceiling is. We may not know what his floor is, but we don't know what his ceiling is rather than a guy with as much on the body of work is what Dan Mullen has who Dan Mullen is not a great big game coach. That, that is a knock, I think a fair knock on Mullen for as much as as I think he's a good coach. He's not been over the course of his career great in in the biggest games. Now part of that I would point out is well he was at Mississippi State. How great have they been historically against top 15 type of teams? But you know, I think bringing back in someone who failed at that level of job a second time around is just harder to do in the, in the Signetti era. And I think that's why you look inside the sec. Who are the SEC hires this last cycle? Guys from the group of six who were up and comers, Alex Gollish, John Sumrall, you know, Rhett Lashley or excuse me not Rhett Lashley, Will Stein at at Kentucky was not a not a coach but he was like the hot shot coordinator and, and could he be the next hot thing? I I think you know, Ryan Silverfield at, at Arkansas, another group of six coach. It just I think that's the moment we're in right now because Signetti was almost an unheard of at least nationally when Indiana hired him and it worked so well. I I think that's maybe more the urge in the SEC right now in

[B]

hiring yeah, better better hire someone with a blank slate and by blank slate I mean no, no way of Evaluating what they might do at the SEC level. You go get a John Summerall. He's got, he's got a thin body of work there. Is successful, but at lower levels. And I think he'll be a good coach. I was fine with that hire, but you still don't know for sure. But it's easy to sell somebody like that because when you go to hire somebody and then they sort. What about that, that year, he had that last year at Florida. What about that game against Alabama? You just kind of go down the line and you find all the negatives and those things are magnified when you're bringing someone in to run your program.

[A]

Yeah. And I think it kind of depends what you want as a program. Everybody wants to make the playoff now. Everybody wants to do the Indiana thing and win national championships. I think that's great. If you can, if you can do that. I, I look at things a little bit differently. If you've been down in the dumps for years and you've got a guy who's on the market who consistently wins 8, 9, 10 games but probably will never win a national championship, isn't that a clear upgrade on going 4 and 8? I don't know. I mean, I mean, it depends on your expectations. If to you 4 and 8 is the same as 8 and 4, then I guess don't hire that guy if it's playoffs or bust. Well, don't hire the guy who regularly goes 8 and 4. But for me, if you've been going 4 and 8 year after year, if you're Wisconsin who's become an embarrassment, which really shouldn't be, Wisconsin football should not be as bad as they've been under Luke Fickle. So to me, I mean, Wisconsin went 4 and 8 last year, year before that, 5 and 7. Wisconsin football should not be going 5 and 7 and 4 and 8. If Wisconsin could have a Brian Kelly or Dan Mullen consistent winner, but is never going to win a national championship, would that be an upgrade? To me it would be, I think to a lot of fans, boosters, administrators, they'd rather take the chance on the young up and comer and see what the ceiling is. Well, how'd that work out for Wisconsin when they hired Luke Fickle from Cincinnati? Not very well. So I don't know. I, I think there's something to be said for the proven commodity. Depending on what your expectations are. Are your expectations national championship or are they to be a consistent winner with the acknowledgment that the veteran you hire probably will Never get you to the top of the mountain. For lsu, they made a mistake hiring Brian Kelly because they expected him to do something that he'd never shown he could die, could do, win the big games and win the national championship. He won over 70% of his games. I think that'd be pretty good. At Wisconsin, for lsu, that's not enough.

[B]

Would Wisconsin hire Dan Mullen?

[A]

Probably not. Would Dan Mullen be a better coach than whoever they'll hire to replace Luke Fickle, who probably will get replaced in about, I don't know, four months? I would. I would bet that Dan Mullen will be. Is a better coach than whoever Wisconsin will hire to replace Luke Fickle, but I think they'll take the chance. It's like, you know, it's like the old baseball game, John, when they're going to hold, they say you want the four free tickets with the meal plan, free drinks, you know, you get to sit in luxury suites. You want the four free tickets to the ball game, or do you want to go for the doors? They always go for the doors, don't they? Remember that old contest at the ball games? They always go for the doors. And 90 of the time, the four free tickets in the luxury would have been a lot better than whatever trinket is hiding behind those doors.

[B]

Oh, every game show known to man, you. You go for the. On you. You're reaching for the sky. You're not using logic and playing the odds.

[A]

Yeah, reaching for the sky. Walking away with a trinket. All right, so we've identified a few coaches that it seems like you agree John may be underrated in this top 25. I'm wondering if there's any SEC coaches overrated in this USA Today top 25 ranking of coaches, which you can find linked in the podcast description. Even though there are a few discrepancies between the top 25 in my ballot, you should certainly check out the way it all shook out, because maybe I was in the wrong. Okay, a couple ones I want to highlight John as. Are they overrated? Lane Kiffin checked in at number six. Now, this isn't too far off from where I had him on my ballot. I had Lane Kiffin at number eight on my ballot. One other one. I want to highlight Mike Elko, who I think is doing a tremendous job at Texas A and M. He is at number 13 in the top 25 now, even though I think he's doing a tremendous job. I had him lower on my ballot. I had him at number 18 mostly because I want to See Mike Elko do it another year at Texas A and M. I want to make sure that last year wasn't a flash in a pan. In the pan. It's not that I don't think he's a good coach. I think he is. I think he will be. Will prove to be a good hire for A M. I just need to see it for one more year. So I had him at 18. My colleagues were not as hesitant. They had him at 13. And again, I had Kiffin at eight. He's at number six in this top 25. Do you see either of those guys overrated? Kiffin at 6, Elko at 13?

[B]

Not really. And we talked about this yesterday when we were prepping for our podcast.

[A]

You just let our listeners know, John, that we don't just do this on a. Off the cuff.

[B]

Not usually, but there are exceptions to everything.

[A]

There are exceptions.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's how. And as we said, it's about. It's like voting in a top 25. They'll give you guidelines. But when everybody gets ready to vote in the Associated Press poll, the writers, media types, they've got their own set of standards. I mean, what they're looking for from a team, how. How much they value strength of schedule, head to head, all these things. So when I look at. Look at a coach, are we basing it on what we think the ceiling is with these coaches? What's their. What's their resume right now? Do we factor in. What is the school where they're coaching? What's the history of that school? How much have they improved it? Those are all things I consider. That's why I don't think Kiffin is overrated at number six. And you look at Kiffin's, where he's been, okay. Southern Cal, historically a college football powerhouse, although Lincoln Raleigh is doing everything he can to make it less than that. When we look at Southern Cal, Lane Kiffin, when he went there, it was. It was getting hammered by the ncaa. That was back. Back when the NCAA still had some. Still had a hammer and still had some clout and was punishing schools and they were severely limited in scholarships after the Reggie Bush scandal and all that stuff under Pete Carroll. So he. He didn't have it wasn't the Southern Cal in its best days. So then you look at him. He was only at Tennessee one year. He was at Florida Atlantic A football. Nobody that he made a lot better. But when you look what he did at Ole Miss, just kind of a mediocre program. Never even played in the SEC championship game. You look what he did there in those double figure win seasons. And that, to me, that, that really shows his value as a coach. And it makes me wonder what he could do when he had all the resources, when he had the tradition behind him, the nil money behind him. And I think he has all that at lsu. So you have to. It's kind of apples and oranges. How do you compare that with, let's say, Steve Sarkeesian at Texas? Everything's in place at Texas. And Steve Sarkeesian didn't make the playoff last year. Easily could have had a, certainly had a playoff caliber team though, year before he made it. Lost in a, a game against Ohio State, which went on to win the national title. But it was competitive. But he hasn't won it all at Texas. When you're at Texas, you're expected to win it all even though it hadn't won a national title since 2005. That's the expectation, but you know, it has the resources. So that's why when I look at Kiffin, I'm, I'm still saying he showed us potential, enough potential to make us believe that if he gets in the very best situation, he'll win a championship.

[A]

Yeah. And, and I really don't have, you know, as much as I was floored to see hypo at 24 and surprised by that, I'm not surprised to see Kiffin at 6. I'm not surprised to see Mike Elko at 13. I value both those coaches. I maybe just look at things slightly different than, than some of my colleagues did. And so, But I have no major objection to Kiffin being at 6 or Elko being at 13. Really the reason I had Kiffin at 8, the seven coaches ranked, I had ranked ahead of him. John. All have multiple playoff victories. Lane Kiffin might have won multiple playoff games if he would have stuck around last year, but he didn't. And so Kiffin got Ole Miss the playoff. I give him a ton of credit to that for that, as do you. But he has no playoff wins because he left before the playoffs started. The seven guys ahead of him, three of those guys have national championships. My top three were Kirby Smart, Kurt Signetti and Ryan Day. One, two, three. All those guys have have Natties. And then behind them I had Steve Sarkeesian, Dan Lanning, Marcus Freeman and Kalyn DeBoer. Now Sark, I probably value him more than most of my colleagues. He's not coming off of his best season. Underachieved last year, but he's also been to two College Football Playoff semifinals and I maintain in the 2024 season that was the de facto national championship game between Ohio State and Texas there in the semifinal and, and very competitive game up to the end. He's, you know, I have him at four with those two semifinals on the resume. Dan Lanning got a couple playoff wins last year. He's at number five. Marcus Freeman really like what he's doing at Notre Dame. Had the national runner up finish a couple of years ago. And then Calyn DeBoer I know, you know, nationally it's like, oh, is he going to get it done at Alabama? High pressure job, you know, will he ever live up to saving? No, of course he's not going to live up to Saban. Nobody would. But he got Washington to a national championship game in year two for whatever the struggles were at the bookends of the season. Calyn DeBoer got Alabama to Atlanta. He got them to the College Football Playoff quarterfinals. He has multiple playoff victories. So for me, that's why I had kiffin8 was when I looked through the playoff lens, all the guys ahead of him have multiple playoff wins and Lane Kiffin still has zero. Partially because he left Ole Miss instead of coaching, staying and coaching the playoff.

[B]

Yeah, you mentioned A. Kalyn DeBoer to me is a. I don't. I had a high opinion of him when he was hired at Alabama. I thought he did a tremendous job at Washington. He made a quick, quick flip there, turned out Washington into a championship contender almost overnight. And he has, he's won wherever he's been. Just a stupendous winning percentage, one of the best winning percentages I've ever seen for a college football coach. Even if he was a lot of out of the way, small colleges along the way. But he's won wherever he's been. And when I look at Alabama now, I just don't. And I know you don't either. Don't perceive Alabama the way I once did. This is not the dynasty. Alabama. This is a pretty good program which seems to be lacking in nil funds. And I thought Alabama, I didn't think that was a playoff caliber team at all last season.

[A]

Nope. And it wasn't.

[B]

And it, it made the playoff and won a playoff game on the road. Yeah, it got taken apart by Indiana, but the best team in the country was a lot better than that Alabama team. When you just looked at that depth chart and you went across the board, you looked at every position. I thought, I thought the board did A really good job of winning as much as he did at Alabama. He's. That to me is a plus going forward for Alabama. They're stronger in the coaching department, I think, than they are in the nil department. So I, I give. I think deboer is a really good coach and he'll never say this, but he may regret one day not taking that Michigan job.

[A]

I wonder about that too. I do. All right, John. So in addition to the I top 25 coach rankings nationally, I put together my SEC coach rankings, which I've been doing for several years. Apparently. They don't ask you to do that.

[B]

No, they pretty much don't ask me to do anything. Which makes me wonder, do they know I'm still on their payroll? That's not all bad.

[A]

I guess that's not all bad is a good place to be. 75 vacation days like, like I know you have, John, and they don't know you're on the payroll. That's living. That is living. Okay, so we're not going to go through my entire SEC rank coach rankings, but I just want to throw out my top 25, John, and see how you would adjust my top five, if at all. My top five coaches in the SEC are as follows. Number one is a no brainer. It's Kirby Smart. Two through four, I think is where it gets kind of difficult. I could have. I could see people shaking up the order of these three coaches, but for me, two through four went like this. Steve Sarkeesian, number two, Caitlin DeBoer, number three. Lane Kiffin, number four. Rounding out my top five, Josh Hyple at number five. And I'll just throw in a couple more just for fun. I had Mike Elko at six, Eli Drinkwitz at number seven. But just looking at my top five in the sec. Kirby Smart, Sark, Debor, Kiffin, hypo. What would your top five look like?

[B]

It would look very much like that. And even if you wanted to go to a top seven, it would have looked very much like that. Kirby Smart, no doubt about him being number one and in my mind, number one in all of college football. Kirk Signetti deserves two after incredible two seasons at Indiana. Sarkeesian and Kiffin I have trouble with. Sarkeesian has done more, but he's also been at places more endowed than where Kiffin has been. So I wonder. I think Kiffin might have a higher ceiling, but if you just do it based on what somebody's done, Sarkeesian warrants second place. Then I would have. So then I could put Kiffin at third. Kaylin DeBoer, four. That. Yeah, there. Those four to me, stand out. There's. Then I go, then Josh Hypo, number five, hasn't had a losing season in Elko. I think very, you know, very promising what he might do. It takes his a M. And you look how A M is recruiting in this cycle. It's leading the country in the 24. Seven sports composite reeled in about commitments from about 6, 5 stars. A M's recruited well in the past, but never, never at that level. So he's winning over the nil investors there. There's no question about it. Elko is so. I like what he's done. And so. But Hypo, Elko and then Drinkowitz. Yeah, I just. So I think, you know, it's. It's interesting.

[A]

We're.

[B]

We're praising some of these guys, but a while back we talked about the Big Ten probably has better coaches right now. Oh, and I haven't changed my opinion of that because again, we. You go with body of work. And you look at the guys that the Big Ten added this after. In this off season, getting Cal Whittingham from Utah to Michigan and Matt Campbell from Iowa State to Penn State. So again, at the very top, the Big Ten is well fortified with coaches.

[A]

Yeah, those guys, Matt Campbell and Kyle Whittingham were both in the top 20 of my top 25 coach ballots. Yeah, right. Right there. The Big Ten added two more top 20 coaches, whereas in this last hiring cycle, I didn't have the SEC adding any top 20 coaches. I mean, Kiffin. Yeah, that. That was a ton. LSU got a top 20 coach, but he didn't join the conference. He was already in the conference. He just moved from one. One school, sure.

[B]

To.

[A]

To the other. Last thought for you, John. This is not sec, but Clemson resonates in the South. I'm curious that maybe the toughest coach I have ranking in this annual top 25 ballot that I get is Dabo Sweeney. Because I can't ignore what he's done throughout his career. I mean, other than Nick Saban, Dabo Sweeney has been the best coach in. In college football for the last 15, 18 years. I mean, Urban. Urban Meyer would. Would be. Would be in there too, but Urban's been out of it now for. For several years. So, you know, when you factor that in, this is Nick. Nick one, Dabo two, with two national championships. And really, I think you can call. Depending on your definition of the term, I think you can call what Davo had there at the peak at Clemson, a dynasty. He had two national titles in a three year span and the number of victories, I think that was a dynasty, at least a mini dynasty. The last few years it has not been dynasty Clemson. And last year calling it mediocre Clemson might have been kind. So I, I don't really know what to do with that, but I can't ignore what he's done there. And that is not a program that can just expect a pencil in national championships. They can't even expect to pencil in 10, 11, 12 win season. So he's been phenomenal for Clemson. And also this is not dabo's finest hour and I don't really see any signs of him revitalizing to his finest hour. So I have a really hard time ranking Dabo in these, these types of situations. I put him at number nine behind Lane Kiffin. So still in my top 10. But I would totally on. I could understand it if someone had Dabo, you know, more in the 15, 20 range on their ballot if, if they're thinking from the lens of would I hire Dabo Sweeney if I'm, you know, Georgia or Alabama today, maybe not. And he wound up in the top 10. He was at number 10 in our, in our tabulation by USA Today. But what would you do with, with Dab?

[B]

He's a very hard guy to evaluate now. It's as though we're dealing with Dabo light now. This is, this is not the dabo who as you said, built a dynasty at Clemson. But you know what? If you took away the dynasty at Clemson. Clemson and went back and look at what Clemson football was pre Dabbo. What he had, what Clemson has now is still better than that.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

So I think he's a guy that doesn't get the credit. And part of it is because of the. His reaction, the way he's bowed up and just ran it against Nil. Oh, they're tampering. Yeah. And they're winning. Yeah. That those two go together. Tampering in the portal, winning in the playoffs. He's, you know, he's doesn't have the, he's not interested. He was like he wants to develop players. He's not adjusting to the new way of, of college football. So there's no way you should hire him because he's just, he's steadfastly, steadfastly not adjusting. And that's. To maintain success as a coach. You've got to adjust and adapt. But if you go back and look at what he did, man, he went to toe to toe with Alabama's Dynasty and Nick Saban and won two national titles. It wasn't as though he sneaked in during a talent void across the country and won a couple of national championships. He did it the hard way. So he's had a great career and you shouldn't take that way away from you. That gets back to when we discuss anytime you're ranking, what are you ranking? If you want to say, when you say the best coaches, that's really too nebulous. If you want to say, whom would you hire? Who are the rank the top 25 coaches you could hire. Why don't with your persuasive power and your position there in USA Today, Blake, why don't you talk to them about that?

[A]

And I need to have you as my agent, John, because nobody thinks I have the power that I do other than you. So you really are a great salesman for me. And I've been a great salesman, I guess, for Josh Hypo and Eli Drinkwitz on this podcast, John. But you know the way we are. We don't stick on the bandwagon.

[B]

No.

[A]

When it's time to get off, we're one of the first ones off. So if Hypo and Drink struggle this year, I might have said now here in July that they're the two most underrated coaches in the sec. They struggle this season. By November, I'll have my, my arrows out. You know I will. We'll be turning up, turning up that dial. We got to get off the bandwagon. We will wrap the ankles hurting ourselves, jumping on.

[B]

We've done it before.

[A]

We'll do it again. We'll do it again next week. Thanks for listening to this edition of SEC football.