Ep. 429 - Top Class Actions President & CEO, Scott Hardy

Summary

Podcast Summary: Second in Command - Ep. 429 with Scott Hardy, CEO of Top Class Actions

Introduction

In episode 429 of the “Second in Command” podcast, host Cameron Herold engages in an insightful conversation with Scott Hardy, the President and CEO of Top Class Actions. This episode explores the intricacies of building a robust CEO-COO relationship, strategic hiring practices, scaling a business, and fostering effective communication within leadership teams.

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Scaling the Business Through Strategic Hiring

Scott Hardy opens the discussion by detailing the transformational journey of Top Class Actions, which scaled from $1 million to $10 million in annual revenue. A critical factor in this growth was the strategic hiring of his COO, Steve Williams, who initially joined as a VP of Operations. Hardy reflects on his early hiring missteps, particularly with his first employee, Sarah, who was placed in a role misaligned with her passions, leading to her departure. Fortunately, Sarah returned in a position that leveraged her strengths in marketing, underscoring the importance of aligning roles with individual passions.

Notable Quote:

“Bringing Steve on is what helped us grow and quickly scale from a business doing a million a year and a million and a half a year to eventually 5, 6, 7, now 10 million.” [00:43]

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Establishing a Trust-Based CEO-COO Relationship

The cornerstone of Hardy's successful partnership with Steve Williams is built on trust, transparent communication, and clearly defined responsibilities. Scott emphasizes the necessity of delegating operational tasks to the COO, enabling the CEO to concentrate on the visionary aspects of the business.

Notable Quote:

“Trust in my decision-making process as long as I talk through it and I don't just say, this is what we're doing, you got to deal with it.” [10:31]

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Implementing the Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS)

Hardy discusses the adoption of the Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS), inspired by Gino Wickman's "Traction," within Top Class Actions. Steve’s role as the integrator is pivotal in maintaining the company's focus and ensuring that strategic goals are met. His data-driven approach complements Scott’s visionary perspective, preventing the company from veering off course with less critical projects.

Notable Quote:

“Steve helps make sure that we're looking at all of the data... keeping us from shoving a few hundred thousand dollars into a project or even over and above the money, the time of our team on another project that doesn't get us where we need to be.” [10:59]

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Balancing Vision and Operational Excellence

Scott likens the CEO-COO dynamic to that of a visionary and an operational enforcer. While Scott pursues ambitious ideas, Steve ensures these ideas are feasible and aligned with the company’s strategic goals, maintaining a balanced approach to growth.

Notable Quote:

“I'm always looking massively big picture and I'm a true visionary... Steve's like, whoa, come back. Let’s stay focused on the goal, which is the summit.” [10:59-12:21]

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Conflict Resolution and Communication

Effective conflict resolution is paramount in maintaining a healthy CEO-COO relationship. Hardy and Williams prioritize open dialogue and address disagreements promptly to prevent issues from escalating. They utilize frameworks like "Crucial Conversations" to navigate conflicts constructively, ensuring that disagreements are resolved in a manner that strengthens their partnership.

Notable Quote:

“We immediately schedule time to go over it... we have all new employees go through crucial conversations training.” [20:36]

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Building Trust and Shared Experiences

The relationship between Scott and Steve is fortified by a pre-existing friendship and mutual respect from their previous tenure at Nextel Partners. Shared team-building activities, such as driving Porsches together, further strengthen their bond, demonstrating the significance of personal connections in professional partnerships.

Notable Quote:

“Steve and I were friends at our previous employer... it’s a matter of time and growing together.” [24:42]

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Defining Roles and Responsibilities

Clear delineation of roles enhances organizational efficiency. Scott identifies himself as the company cheerleader, focusing on vision and morale, while Steve is responsible for providing hard feedback and ensuring operational tasks are executed effectively. This clear role definition is communicated throughout the organization to eliminate confusion and streamline decision-making processes.

Notable Quote:

“I am the company cheerleader and it's his job to really provide harder feedback.” [27:51]

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Skip-Level Meetings and Organizational Communication

To maintain transparency and effective communication, Scott ensures that Steve is copied on all organizational communications. This practice prevents any overlap or miscommunication, respecting the established chain of command and fostering a collaborative environment.

Notable Quote:

“I make sure I copy him on every email that I send out to anyone in the organization.” [31:20]

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Shining the Spotlight on Leadership

Hardy underscores the importance of publicly acknowledging each other’s strengths to reinforce their complementary roles. By highlighting Steve's organizational and data-driven expertise, Scott ensures that Steve's contributions are recognized both internally and externally, thereby strengthening their leadership presence.

Notable Quote:

“I try to reinforce to everyone how great an organizer and data first, data-driven executive Steve is.” [32:55]

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Conclusion

Episode 429 of the “Second in Command” podcast provides a comprehensive exploration of the dynamics between a CEO and COO. Scott Hardy’s insights into building trust, defining roles, and maintaining open communication offer invaluable lessons for leaders aiming to scale their businesses effectively. The harmonious and strategic partnership between Scott and Steve serves as a model for fostering a productive and balanced executive team, ultimately driving sustained business growth.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

1. Scott Hardy [00:43]: “Bringing Steve on is what helped us grow and quickly scale from a business doing a million a year and a million and a half a year to eventually 5, 6, 7, now 10 million.”

2. Scott Hardy [10:31]: “Trust in my decision-making process as long as I talk through it and I don't just say, this is what we're doing, you got to deal with it.”

3. Scott Hardy [10:59-12:21]: “I'm always looking massively big picture and I'm a true visionary... Steve's like, whoa, come back. Let’s stay focused on the goal, which is the summit.”

4. Scott Hardy [20:36]: “We immediately schedule time to go over it... we have all new employees go through crucial conversations training.”

5. Scott Hardy [24:42]: “Steve and I were friends at our previous employer... it’s a matter of time and growing together.”

6. Scott Hardy [27:51]: “I am the company cheerleader and it's his job to really provide harder feedback.”

7. Scott Hardy [31:20]: “I make sure I copy him on every email that I send out to anyone in the organization.”

8. Scott Hardy [32:55]: “I try to reinforce to everyone how great an organizer and data first, data-driven executive Steve is.”

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This structured summary encapsulates the core discussions and insights shared by Scott Hardy, providing valuable takeaways for CEOs and COOs aspiring to build effective and harmonious leadership teams.

Transcript

[Cameron Harold]

I'm Cameron Harold, the founder of the Second in Command podcast. Really quick. Before we jump into today's episode, you need to know about two important ways that we can help you and your company grow. Number one, check out the COO Alliance. It's for COOs, presidents, VP ops, or whoever is your company's second in command to the CEO. The COO alliance is the world's leading community for the second in command and it gives coos the tools and connections to grow themselves and the company. Head over to coolalliance.com to learn more about our members and the results, the program and our 10x guarantee. If you qualify for membership, you can set up a complimentary call with our team to discuss if it's right for you. I'll tell you about number two in a bit, but first, let's start this week's episode.

[Scott Hardy]

Well, and it was funny because I always envisioned that would be Sarah in that role at first, but Sarah's passion is marketing and all the online marketing. And I made a key mistake that I think a lot of early executives make, which is I put her in a role that she didn't want to be in and so eventually she quit. Thankfully, actually she came back this year. But we've got her in a role that she is passionate about and that she loves to do and. But when we were looking at what we needed Steve to do, it was really just empowering Steve to continue to help drive the business from a data driven perspective. And bringing Steve on is what helped us grow and quickly scale from a business doing a million a year and a million and a half a year to eventually 5, 6, 7, now 10 million.

[Cameron Harold]

Welcome to the Second in Command podcast, produced by the COO alliance and brought to you by its founder, Cameron Harold. In the second in command podcast, we talked to top COOs who share the insights, strategies and tactics that made them the chief behind the Chief. And now, here's your host, Cameron Herold.

[Scott Hardy]

In this episode, we dive into the essential elements of building a powerful CEO COO relationship. I had the pleasure of speaking with Scott Hardy, CEO of Top Class Actions, who shares his experience of scaling his business from 1 million to $10 million annually after hiring a CEO. Scott discusses the crucial role trust, communication and clearly defined responsibilities play in driving success between a CEO and their second in command. We also explore practical strategies for empowering a CEO, including fostering open dialogue, managing conflicts constructively, and creating systems that ensure accountability without overstepping boundaries. If you're a CEO aiming to strengthen your partnership with your COO or a second in command looking to support your leader. This episode offers valuable insights into building a seamless and effective leadership team. Enjoy the conversation.

[Cameron Harold]

So, Scott, welcome to the Second in Command podcast and our YouTube channel. Super excited to chat with you on this today.

[Scott Hardy]

Oh, I'm super happy to be here. It's been great knowing you and especially seeing the results that you have helped with my coo. Yeah.

[Cameron Harold]

Steve Williams has been a member of the CO alliance for, I think about four years now. He's been amazing. To get to know him, watch his growth and, yeah, just be a part of your journey with Top class actions as well. So thank you for doing this. You're only the second CEO that I've interviewed for the Second Command podcast in eight years. We've done 420 episodes. The only other CEO I ever interviewed was Bob Glazier. Robert Glazier is founder of Acceleration Partners, and his coo, Matt Wool, was one of the very first COO alliance members. He was in the first 10 people that joined at the very first event, was a member for a few years. And so I got Bob's perspective on a COO transitioning to a CEO because his coo, Matt, moved into the CEO role when Bob kind of exited and just became chairman and started working on his brand. But today with you, I want to chat about working with the CEO from the CEO's perspective. So thanks for doing this.

[Scott Hardy]

Oh, happy to talk about it. I'm lucky I've got such a great COO to work with.

[Cameron Harold]

So let's go back to when you first hired your first second in command. And I don't even necessarily want to call it a coo. Your first second in command was probably, was it an executive assistant or was it an operations person? What would your first second in command have been where you started giving a bunch of stuff that prior to that, you know, only you could really do.

[Scott Hardy]

That would have been Sarah. And she was the first real employee of Top Class Actions. And so it was funny when I brought her on, it was the first attempt at trying to let go of some control. And it was, frankly, a huge relief. And. But that when I was giving up that work, that was just a lot of work. Right. It wasn't a lot of strategic stuff that I was letting go of. And that didn't happen until I brought Steve on, who first started as a consultant. And then immediately, because he said, hey, Scott, what's your dashboard? And I went, what's the dashboard? We just. We just do what we have to do. He's oh, gosh. And so he immediately took a whiteboard and started putting all these metrics on it. And I said, man, you should build that.

[Cameron Harold]

That would be cool, right?

[Scott Hardy]

Yeah, that's, that's great. We need to start tracking that stuff.

[Cameron Harold]

Interesting. So that's exactly how I got involved at 1-800-got junk. Brian brought me on as a consultant to coach his oper operations person and after two days his operations person said, I can't do anything that Cameron's going to teach me. Why is he even teaching me? Why don't we just somehow hire him and bring him into the organization? So that's kind of worked. So when you had Sarah and you were delegating stuff, what was the mindset different to from delegating stuff and delegating projects to delegating stuff that was more strategic or, you know, bigger picture or bigger priorities or, you know, what was your mindset around that? How did you allow yourself to let that go?

[Scott Hardy]

Well, I mean, with Sarah, she was, it was still a side project, so I still was working full time in cloud computing sales and she started doing some of the writing. She was a contractor first and then she became the first full time employee and it was just, let's keep on growing, growing, growing I go growing our audience at Top Class Actions, growing our unique views, growing our subscriber list, focusing on the marketing. And she was a legitimate writer. She worked for entrepreneur and other, you know, real journalistic entities. While at Top Class Actions, I was the run, writing all of the content for the first couple of years and doing everything right. As a lot of entrepreneurs, I was the webmaster, I was the marketer, it was everything. And so by having her on that was huge. To be able to start growing that, just continuing to grow it and then having her start managing the writers and scaling that up beyond me.

[Cameron Harold]

Did you have a goal in mind or a metric or kind of a dollar amount in mind that you knew what you were paying her, that she was going to kind of create an incremental revenue? Did you have an idea or was it just I need to get some stuff off my plate?

[Scott Hardy]

No, it was just, all right, I think I can afford to pay her and then continue to scale things up. And I mean, back at that point, especially when she was a contractor before we had to start paying insurance, benefits and all that kind of stuff, that I was looking at roughly like a 4 to 1 ratio on revenue coming in versus revenue going out in expenses.

[Cameron Harold]

That's about the number I look at as well as 4 to 1. I think if you hire a good senior person, they should be able to create four times the leverage of their kind of total encumbered cost. Right. So when Steve then came on, did he originally come on as a coo or what was the title that you put on him when he came in?

[Scott Hardy]

No, he came on as a VP of Operations.

[Cameron Harold]

Okay, good. And what was the distinguishing kind of title in mind that you had with that? And is what's his title today? Is it, is it COO today?

[Scott Hardy]

Yeah, Steve is a COO today.

[Cameron Harold]

So what was the difference in your mind between a VP of operations and a COO? And I'm glad you started with VP operations too.

[Scott Hardy]

Well, he became. So we rolled out EOs to help run the business. And so he became the integrator. And an integrator is naturally more of a COO role. And he was doing more and taking more and more of the daily decision making processes and tasks off of my plate for just operational stuff. And so we hit a point where it made sense to transition from a VP of Operations to a true coup role. So everyone knew that he was the other key decision maker in the business.

[Cameron Harold]

That was again, identical to me. I started as Vice President, Operations and then moved over shortly after to the coo. And it was because. Well, let me not even put that into your, into your words. What were the things that Steve brought to the table then as COO that were different? Or what did you need him to bring to the table as coo other than people would see him as a second decision maker? I guess he's one making decisions. But what else did he kind of bring to the table in that CEO role?

[Scott Hardy]

Well, and it was funny because I always envisioned that would be Sarah in that role at first, but Sarah's passion is marketing and all the online marketing. And I made a key mistake that I think a lot of early executives make, which is I put her in a role that she didn't want to be in. And so eventually she quit and thankfully, actually she came back this year and. But we've got her in a role that she is passionate about and that she loves to do. And. But when we were looking at what we needed Steve to do, it was really just empowering Steve to continue to help drive the business from a data driven perspective. And bringing Steve on is what helped us grow and quickly scale from a business doing a million a year and a million and a half a year to eventually 5, 6, 7, now 10 million.

[Cameron Harold]

Okay, I want you to also speak to EOS you mentioned EOS, which is the entrepreneurial operating system. It's based on Gino Wickman's book Traction. I'd guess about 40% of our COO alliance members use the EOS system. So when Steve came on and was then that integrator and putting that system in place, why does it work better with an integrator, with that COO or that second command mindset and skill set to put those systems in place versus the entrepreneur. Why do you think that works out better?

[Scott Hardy]

Well, for me, I'm always looking massively big picture and I'm a true visionary where I see different opportunities. And Steve likes to call them butterfly ideas. And so I'm that big Saint Bernard trudging up the mountain and a butterfly will pop up and like, ooh, let's go over here. And Steve's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, over here. Come back, come back. Let's stay focused on the goal, which is the summit. And Steve helps make sure that we're, we're looking at all of the data. Because I can sit there and I can get an idea in mind. Go. This is going to be a multi million dollar idea. We've got to go forward and Steve's, because there's a lot of trust, right? I trust Steve to help determine if it's the right idea or not and to keep us on track so we don't all of a sudden shove a few hundred thousand dollars into a project or even over and above the money, the time of our, the resources, the time of our team on another project that doesn't get us where we need to be with that big, hairy, audacious goal that we might set within eos and having him there to say, hey, does this align with our annual goals? And now does this align with our quarterly goals? And above and beyond that, does that align with our monthly goal now that we've got, right.

[Cameron Harold]

Yeah.

[Scott Hardy]

It's huge. You've got to have someone that can keep you on track.

[Cameron Harold]

I want to speak to that a little bit. You know, you talk about the butterfly, the Saint Bernard getting distracted with the butterfly and Steve pulling you back. I've often said that the second in command or the COO needs to be the brakes to the entrepreneur's gas, but not the parking brake. Right. We don't jam on the brake and stop the whole operation. And we need to be the leash to the dragon. Right. Kind of pull you back in a little bit, but not choke you. How does Steve find that balance between slowing you down and stopping the Whole thing. And does he say something to you in the right way? Have you learned how to speak to each other? Because it's almost like men are from Mars, women are from Venus. COOs speak differently and hear differently than CEOs do.

[Scott Hardy]

Yeah. And so he'll. He'll throw a flag. He'll be like, all right, I gotta throw a flag here and ask some questions. We also have our chief legal officer, and she joined once we started our own law firm. And she is also really good on the analytical side and throwing the flag and making sure. And, you know, this just happened on a meeting yesterday where we had a large issue we were talking about, and it was. I was getting very passionate about it, and she was offering a contrarian view. And Steve was also more actually on. On my side of the view. But I think it shows that you've got to have a. A strong team that isn't afraid to express their opinion, even to the boss, because it gave me a fresh perspective. And so when Steve will throw the flag, and sometimes Steve will do it in a way that I don't like. And then the team like, oh, mom and dad are fighting again. We're like, no, no, no. And Steve and I might separate. Separate off for five or ten minutes to work it out, not in front of the team, and then come back. So we're a united front.

[Cameron Harold]

But, yeah, I actually spoke about that in my book, the Second Command, that the CEO and CEO do need to be like mom and dad. You need to have the good debate, but not in front of the kids. And. And you need to be able to have time away from the kids. It's interesting that you saw that and you work for that. I love just the term I've got a flag or I want to put a flag, because it's a terminology that is okay, that is socialized, that people understand, that allows for good debate versus just arguing. Right. Where if they say, hey, I've got a flag, then that contrarian view is understood by all the other people around. So is that a term that people in the company now know?

[Scott Hardy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can. You can throw a challenge flag and put it out there. But, I mean, we've had. He. He hurt my feelings in a quarterly meeting back in June, and I was upset that he was coming. You know, he. It felt like he was talking down to me, and I was like, all right, we got to stop right here, because this is going to get really bad. So let's take a walk and see. Steve's like, I had no intention, you know, cutting that deep, but I could be sensitive, you know.

[Cameron Harold]

Yeah.

Hey there, Cameron here. Are you enjoying the show thus far? We're going to get right back to it in a sec, but just let me ask you a quick question. Are you a COO or a second in command tasked with helping the company hit and exceed its growth goals? Having spent many decades of my life dedicated to this role, I know one of the secrets of growth is to surround yourself with like minded people, also pushing and striving to go where you want to go. It's why, as a listener to this podcast, I want to officially invite you to the COO Alliance. It's for COOs, presidents, VPOps, or whoever is your company's second in command to the CEO. We're the world's leading community for the second in command and it gives COOs the tools and connections to grow themselves and the company. When you're a part of this peer group, you'll get access to unprecedented support, guidance and resources to grow your company's bottom line, improve your ability to streamline processes, connect with other top seconds in command to assist you and bring out your greatest potential and so much more. Go to www.cooalliance.com to see if you qualify. It's where you can also see other members and the results of the program, as well as our 10x guarantee. If you qualify for membership, you can set up a complimentary call with our team to discuss if the group can be the right fit for you. Once again, it's www.coolalliance.com use promo code.

[Scott Hardy]

Podcast10 before the end of the month for 10% off.

[Cameron Harold]

That is P O D C A.

[Scott Hardy]

S T. 10 before the end of the month for ten percent off.

[Cameron Harold]

Now back to the show.

The cooceo relationship is like a business marriage, right? You, you have to work through those tough times. And I've never seen a single marriage where, you know, 5 years, 10 years, 25 years. It's all easy, right? There's certainly there's the ups and the downs and there's the, the dry periods and there's the holy freak, we hate each other periods. And you work through that stuff and you kind of have to work through that stuff. How do you work through those inevitable tough times with your CEO, with your second command with Steve? How do you work through them and how does he work through them with you?

[Scott Hardy]

Well, it's, it's harder because he's in LA and I'm in Phoenix. But we are 100% virtual company. But we will sit there and we'll hop on a call, we'll hop on a zoom. We get together in person every probably two months, almost always. And through. We hold our quarterly planning meetings in person. But if there is a main point of contention, we immediately schedule time to go over it. And so we don't let anything fester. And that might be a phone call, it might be a text message, it might be a zoom. But that was. That was a big thing is especially early on in our relationship. I would get really annoyed and I wouldn't schedule it. And then we went through crucial conversations training. Another great book, right, that you should. We. We have all. Every new employee that comes in, every new actioneer that joins the team, they go through crucial conversations, and it's huge. And once we did that training, it helped set the guidelines of don't let anything sit. And I love that. Yeah, it's huge.

[Cameron Harold]

Well, and again, it's like a normal marriage, right? If you're going to have that fight or you're going to have that argument, you can't sit and just let it fester for two months. You got to work through it. You got to talk through it. You got to. Maybe you take a day or two to let it just kind of settle and then kind of get back into it. But I love that you're actually working with a framework like crucial conversations, and that you've educated people on that. I know you've also put a bunch of your employees through my invest in your leaders training, and you're growing the skill sets and capacity of people. So one of the other things I think with. With a marriage with a husband and wife in a traditional relationship, you have date night, right? You have time away from the kids, and you have time to just kind of hang out together. Do you and your coo. Do you and Steve have date night? Like, do you have time where you just hang out and do fun stuff together or just hang out?

[Scott Hardy]

We do. Yeah. And, you know, we have our. Our team building where he and I went out and drove Porsches around Alabama on a track. And it's an amazing thing. So that's a passion of his, passion of mine. We always have at least one trip a year where it's just me and him together. And it's whether it's driving Porsches or we did parts of the Baja 1000, and, you know, we took turns driving and navigating. You know, it was. It's. It's really important that we have that experience. But then it might just be if he's here. It was funny. We had an opportunity where he was staying an extra day and we were going to do something fun, but there was a miscommunication and my wife was like, hey, take Steve out, he's here, go. And so he and I went out to a comedy show and dinner and as we were walking out, we were talking about one of the new businesses that we launched because now he's a partner in every new business I launch and we launch it together. And he said, hey, have you talked to this potential investor on that and who's a longtime friend of ours? And I went, you know, I had, I mean, I just didn't think he was interested. He said, give him a text, send him a text. And that, that conversation led to that guy being the largest investor in that new business.

[Cameron Harold]

That's amazing. Yeah. And that, that's when you know you've now turned this business relationship into that trusted longer term relationship. And the date nights are working. I want you to throw on your, I love that you did the Porsche track stuff. I want you to put on your to do list to take a look at Porsche Travel Group. It's PTP Travels, I think, or PT Travels. They do five or six day Porsche trips over in Europe where we did one through five countries, my wife and I. But it's a great one to do with you and your spouses and Steve and his spouse and go and do like five, six days driving Porsches through Europe together. It's ridiculous. I hit 171 miles an hour on the autobahn, which is 268 kilometers an hour. There's no speed limit on the autobahn. So I crossed off my bucket list. My wife hit 252 km an hour in Italy. And Italy, in Italy there is a speed limit and I think the speed limit was 120 and she hit 252. That means you go to jail, you lose your license, you're on the front page of the newspaper, you're kicked out of the country. Thankfully, we didn't get a ticket and she was okay. But yeah, fun event to be able to do that.

[Scott Hardy]

Oh, that's awesome.

[Cameron Harold]

Talk about the trust. Steph, you mentioned that you guys have that trust. How did you and Steve build trust over time? Or did you just start the relationship that way?

[Scott Hardy]

Steve and I were friends at our previous employer. We both worked with company called Nextel Partners and so we were peers there. And then we didn't talk for a couple of years. Just, just, you know, fell apart as Things happen. And then we reconnected when he was acting as consultant and he said, hey, I might be able to help you, but it's so hard once you start something from nothing, building that trust. Because the initial reaction I had with Steve, you don't know what you're talking about. Right. You haven't been here and then. But then Steve obviously is a very, very bright guy and learned and really just enmeshed himself in the entire business. And it's a matter of time and growing together. I mean, we've grown together professionally. We did that early on in our careers in our 30s and actually our late 20s, and now here we are in our 40s doing the same thing where now we're both senior level executives and understanding that.

[Cameron Harold]

It's interesting. I think, again, I spoke about this in the book the Second in Command, that Brian and I had an unfair advantage. He was my best man at my wedding three months before I started working with him. You know, we were already best friends for five years. And sounds like you and Steve had an unfair advantage that you knew each other, you liked each other, you trusted each other. So you didn't have to go through that time period of working on that and building that. You probably had to work on continuing the trust and not harming the trust and not hurting each other's feelings, et cetera. But I like that kind of unfair advantage that you started with. So when this.

[Scott Hardy]

We have this together, I can't tell you what this is.

[Cameron Harold]

What the heck is this?

[Scott Hardy]

There's a. It's a. Some people might know where this is from.

[Cameron Harold]

Okay. Is it a groundhog?

I don't know.

[Scott Hardy]

It's a. It's. It's got a little battery powered candle on top. It's a pig.

[Cameron Harold]

A pig. Okay. It's got a pig with a candle in it for anybody who's not watching. Okay.

[Scott Hardy]

But that came from one of the dinners out with me and his wife and my wife and the four of us together. So. Talk about an unfair advantage when you share little adventures and take home little mementos of those evenings.

[Cameron Harold]

Yeah, Bob, Brian and I have definitely got some mementos from restaurants and bars and places all over the world together that probably should be returned someday. Nothing. There is value, but we definitely were boys behaving badly a bunch of times, which is, again, it's just part of building that relationship. So when you're working with a second command, there's a bit of a divide and conquer. You know, you've got your roles, he's got his roles. How do you decide who does what and how do you communicate that to the company so they know you know who to go and talk to. Is it just as simple as an org chart and roles and responsibilities being documented?

[Scott Hardy]

Yeah, I think it's that everybody rolls up to Steve and his big thing now, especially in the last two years, as we've really tried to accelerate our growth here, is that I am the company cheerleader and it's his job to really provide harder feedback. And it's my job to provide the overall direction and to make sure that everybody is hyped for what we're doing, what we're trying to accomplish, where we're going, and if there's bad news to deliver, that should be more on him. So he's the guy that's delivering that. But people still recognize that me as the CEO, I'm the one there to make sure everybody knows the general direction that we're going. But he's more of the. Well, he's the integrator. He's the enforcer on making sure that things are actually happening.

[Cameron Harold]

Quick question on that. So in Eos, Gino talks about the integrator being the tiebreaker. And I kind of disagreed with that. And I said that the COO needs to play a slightly different role than the tiebreaker with the leadership team. What kind of a role does Steve play with a leadership team?

[Scott Hardy]

Steve, they look to him as their leader. Right. So they know that I'm the overall boss. And it was an issue because we kept trying to do that where he's the tiebreaker here. I said, does it work for me? Because I need to. There are going to be times that I'm going to make a decision that just doesn't make sense to you. Yeah, and he supports that. He trusts in my decision making process as long as I talk through it and I don't just say, this is what we're doing, you got to deal with it, I have to explain it. And then he will sit there and say, scott, this is risky, this is a problem, you know, and I have to make sure that I listen to him and explain to him why I'm doing it. But sometimes I am just going to make that decision and that's that.

[Cameron Harold]

Well, and I've also felt that the coo, you know, or the integrator should be less of a tiebreaker. And once you've built a leadership team, sure. In the small company, 20 employees, where you really don't even have a leadership team, you got a bunch of managers that never really built companies. Yeah. You might be their tiebreaker, you might be making their decisions, but at some point, when you have a seasoned C suite or a seasoned leadership team that have all been doing this for a while, you're more the mediator and the getting them all to collaborate and debate and you're kind of there stirring the Kool Aid and getting them all to stir it all up. And then as a group, getting them to come to consensus. Right. Getting as a group to go through that debate together and fostering that. Does Steve do that? In a way, yeah.

[Scott Hardy]

Yeah. And so who will sit there and make sure that everybody is getting their questions answered, that they're comfortable with what we're trying to do?

[Cameron Harold]

Yeah.

[Scott Hardy]

And then that once we'd say we are going this way, that he keeps everybody in line. And not just saying you have to do this, but make sure that if they've got questions or concerns that they're getting addressed, but everybody is going in the direction we need to go to be successful.

[Cameron Harold]

Yeah. And that's, that's the role that I think that the integrator really needs to be playing. Is that that kind of coach and pulling people through it versus the tiebreaker. I want to talk about skip level meetings. You know, you've got the entire leadership team reporting to Steve, basically the whole company reporting up to Steve. How do you skip over him and do your deep dives that every entrepreneur likes to do at times? How do you do them properly? What's the system that you have in place to inspect what you expect or to dig into different areas or just to see what's going on?

[Scott Hardy]

I make sure I copy him on every email that I send out to anyone in the organization. And so that way he's in the loop. I still have one on one conversations with folks, but then Steve and I always have a extra session that we go over what we just talked about. So there's just a lot of communication between me and Steve and he'll sit there and say, and something I had to learn in the last couple years is that I'm used to going up to somebody and saying, hey, go ahead and do this. And the problem is if I do that with somebody, especially not one of his direct reports, but one person below that is they drop everything they're doing because the President said to do it.

[Cameron Harold]

Right.

[Scott Hardy]

And so I've had to, oh, wait, all right, I can't do that. I've got to go ahead and talk to that person's boss, make sure they're Aware and set the right expectations. But it is just if I'm going in because I talk to all of his direct reports on a regular basis.

[Cameron Harold]

Of course you need to.

[Scott Hardy]

Yeah, but we can communicate and he cc'd on everything.

[Cameron Harold]

Yeah, that's the key, is that you've learned how to do that so that you don't step on each other's toes. And it's almost again like mom and dad so that, you know, dad doesn't say to the kid, yes, you can have cookies, when mom has just said, no, you can't have cookies. Right?

[Scott Hardy]

Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes I still. It happened just last month where we made a decision and we, you know, I had to reverse it. And in retrospect, I think now he was right. But I can't back down now.

[Cameron Harold]

So that's what it is. One of the key roles. Last question I've got here, Scott. One of the key roles that a COO plays is to shine the spotlight on the CEO.

[Scott Hardy]

Right.

[Cameron Harold]

Our job is to make the CEO look good and to make the CEO iconic. And then I've also felt that the CEO's job is to shine the spotlight on the COO. How do you shine the spotlight on Steve internally and externally?

[Scott Hardy]

I try to reinforce to everyone how great an organizer and data first, data driven executives Steve is. And we truly are. I'm truly very lucky that the timing worked out where we reconnected. He was consulting, he was able to come in and really help drive the business. And he loves, he loves the visionary side of me, the risk taker side of me. And it's, it's, it's so important because I, you know, I, I'll put all the chips on the table and I'll run and he'll stop, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop. Let's go through this. And I was like, but this is a great idea. Let's go, go, go. And he's, and if I, I'm, I'm very happy because if he wasn't there, you know, I might have made some decisions that would have been very challenging. And so I'm just, I can't reinforce it enough. And I tell people all the time, we're, when we're out at a conference and I've got Steve next to me and I'll say, you need a Steve. And everyone that we work with will go like, you're so lucky to have Steve. Because when I'm sitting there and high energy and going, yeah, we should go. Steve's, hey, let's, let's wheel it in here and deliver.

[Cameron Harold]

I'll give you a funny backstory before we wrap, then. This is going back to about 2007, 2008. I came off a stage and somebody came up to me and they said, oh my gosh, you're Cameron. And I said, yeah. They said, I thought you were a saying. I'm like, what do you mean? Instead, everyone at this Vern Harnish conference has been walking around for three days saying, I need a Cameron. I thought it was like a flywheel or a bhag. I thought it was a thing. I'm like, I didn't. I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm like. And it dawned on us that they were all saying they needed what Brian at 1-800-GETJUNK had they needed the second in command. So I agree. Everybody needs a Steve and every Steve needs a Scott. So Scott Hardy, CEO for Top Class Actions. Thanks very much for sharing with us as second CEO ever to present on the Second Command podcast. Really appreciate the time.

[Scott Hardy]

Oh, thank you so much for the opportunity, Cameron. I appreciate it.

[Cameron Harold]

That was great.

You've been listening to Second in Command, brought to you by Cool Align founder Cameron Herold. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to like, share and subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and our other podcast streaming platforms. For more best practices from industry leading COOs, visit coolalliance.com.