Ep. 451 - Lincoln-Goldfinch Law Owner, Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch

Summary

Episode Summary: Ep. 451 - Lincoln-Goldfinch Law Owner, Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch

In Episode 451 of the “Second in Command: The Chief Behind the Chief” podcast, host Cameron Herold sits down with Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch, owner of Lincoln-Goldfinch Law, to delve into the intricate dynamics of recruiting, hiring, and fostering a productive relationship with a Chief Operating Officer (COO). This episode offers invaluable insights for CEOs and entrepreneurs seeking to optimize their leadership structures and enhance organizational efficiency.

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1. Introduction to Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch and Her Law Firm

Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch introduces herself and shares the foundational story of her immigration law firm. Her journey began during law school, where a life-changing case involving detained asylum seekers ignited her passion for individual and family-based immigration law. Over the past decade, her firm, based in Texas, has grown to employ around 100 professionals both in the U.S. and abroad, emphasizing peace of mind and security for immigrant families.

Key Quote:

“I was able to take that case and represent that family and win their asylum case. And I was hooked for life.”
— Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch [03:26]

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2. Identifying the Need for a COO

As Lincoln-Goldfinch’s firm expanded, she found herself overwhelmed with coordinating across various departments, including marketing, finance, sales, and legal. The sheer volume of communication and the necessity to manage multiple teams simultaneously led her to recognize the urgent need for a second in command.

Key Quote:

“I was just doing an enormous lift in facilitating the communication amongst those teams... I really can’t step away from this and obtain freedom.”
— Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch [04:57]

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3. The Hiring Process: Lessons Learned

Lincoln-Goldfinch candidly discusses her initial approach to hiring a COO, admitting that she lacked clarity in defining the role. Her first COO was hired somewhat serendipitously through a recruiter friend, a process she later advises against.

Key Quote:

“I did not have the pre-work of getting very clear about the skill set and the job description.”
— Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch [07:41]

Learning from this experience, she recommends creating a comprehensive wish list of desired skills and translating that into a realistic job description. Additionally, she advocates for trial periods or contract roles to ensure a good fit before committing long-term.

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4. Onboarding the COO: Building a Strong Foundation

The onboarding process was another learning curve for Lincoln-Goldfinch. Initially, her approach involved working side by side with the new COO, emphasizing shadowing and gradual task delegation. In hindsight, she suggests a more structured onboarding plan to ensure the COO doesn’t feel pressured to prove themselves immediately.

Key Quote:

“I would have been more clear about what it was... I wouldn’t have had this person feel like they had to prove themselves in the first 90 days.”
— Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch [11:04]

Her COO emphasizes the importance of a defined onboarding period where new leaders focus on understanding rather than making immediate changes, fostering trust and clarity.

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5. Daily Relationship and Management with the COO

The daily interactions between Lincoln-Goldfinch and her COO are characterized by structured meetings and clear delineation of responsibilities. They hold daily check-ins, maintaining a running document of ongoing issues and ensuring that each leader is accountable for their respective departments. This clarity reduces overlap and enhances efficiency.

Key Quote:

“We have clear at this point clarity around who is running which department and which project.”
— Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch [14:25]

They stress the importance of not interrupting each other’s workflows with ad-hoc issues, instead reserving discussions for their scheduled meetings to maintain focus and productivity.

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6. Defining the Role: Director vs. COO

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around understanding the distinction between director-level positions and a COO role. While directors are primarily involved in drafting, executing intents, and hands-on work, a COO focuses on leadership, vision, and implementation without getting bogged down in daily tasks.

Key Quote:

“A COO is much more leadership and vision and responsible for the implementation, but not actually doing the implementation.”
— Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch [20:44]

This differentiation clarifies that a COO brings strategic oversight and operational efficiency, enabling the CEO to concentrate on broader business goals.

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7. Navigating Conflicts and Cultural Differences

Lincoln-Goldfinch shares challenges faced when cultural mismatches arose between her lenient leadership style and her COO’s background in a culture of accountability. These differences led to conflicts, particularly in communication methods and expectations.

Key Quote:

“She came in very much from a background of a culture of accountability... and this sort of was the cultural mismatch.”
— Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch [23:48]

To address such conflicts, Cameron Herold advocates for coaching employees to handle disputes directly with the COO, fostering a culture of open communication and mutual problem-solving rather than mediating conflicts at the CEO level.

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8. Maintaining a Personal Relationship Amidst Business Dynamics

Balancing a professional and personal relationship with her COO is crucial for Lincoln-Goldfinch. They actively ensure they spend quality time together outside of work, such as dining out, attending conferences, and exchanging thoughtful gifts. This intentional effort helps maintain harmony and understanding in both realms.

Key Quote:

“We hang out, we go to dinner, we do fun things... all of that is really important.”
— Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch [28:33]

Recognizing the potential strain of business partnerships, they prioritize reconnecting to prevent drifting apart during busy periods.

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9. Insights and Recommendations for Emerging Leaders

Lincoln-Goldfinch’s experiences underscore the importance of:

• Clear Role Definitions: Before hiring, meticulously outline the COO’s responsibilities and desired skill sets.

• Structured Onboarding: Implement a comprehensive onboarding plan that allows the COO to acclimate without immediate pressure to deliver changes.

• Effective Communication: Establish regular, structured meetings to discuss ongoing issues and strategies, minimizing disruptive ad-hoc communications.

• Conflict Resolution: Encourage direct dialogue between team members and COOs to handle disagreements, fostering a culture of accountability and collaboration.

• Personal-Business Balance: Invest in personal relationships with COOs to sustain professional harmony.

These strategies not only enhance operational efficiency but also foster a cohesive and supportive leadership team.

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10. Conclusion

Episode 451 provides a nuanced exploration of the CEO-COO relationship through Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch’s firsthand experiences. Her journey highlights the critical role a COO plays in scaling a business, the complexities of integrating a second in command, and the significance of maintaining both professional and personal rapport. For leaders aiming to elevate their organizational structure, this episode offers practical advice and relatable insights to guide their path toward building a strong, collaborative leadership team.

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Notable Quotes:

1. Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch on Defining COO Roles:

   “A COO is much more leadership and vision and responsible for the implementation, but not actually doing the implementation.”
   — [20:44]

2. Importance of Clear Role Definitions:

   “We have clear at this point clarity around who is running which department and which project.”
   — [14:25]

3. Maintaining Personal Relationships:

   “We hang out, we go to dinner, we do fun things... all of that is really important.”
   — [28:33]

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About the Podcast:

“Second in Command: The Chief Behind the Chief” is hosted by Cameron Herold and produced by the COO Alliance. This podcast features top-level COOs who share their insights, tactics, and strategies that have made them the backbone of their organizations. Whether you’re a COO, VP Operations, or an integrator to a visionary leader, this podcast offers valuable professional development and growth opportunities tailored for the second in command.

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Connect with Lincoln-Goldfinch Law:

For more information about Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch and her immigration law firm, visit Lincoln-Goldfinch Law.

Join the COO Alliance:

Elevate your leadership skills and connect with the world's leading community for second in command professionals by visiting COOAlliance.com.

Transcript

[Cameron Herold]

Hey, it's Cameron Herald, the host of the Second in Command podcast. Before we dive in, there's something you need to know. If you're a coo, VP Operations, or you're in any role where you're the second in command to the CEO, the COO alliance is the place for you. If you're the integrator to the visionary, you're going to want to join us. The COO alliance is the world's leading community for the second in command. We've had over 500 members like you join from 17 countries to grow their skills, connections and confidence. You'll get the tools, friendships, and a 10x guarantee to ensure that you get your money's worth. Go to cooalliance.com to learn more and see if you qualify. You can even book a free call with our team to ask questions. Now, let's jump into this week's episode.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

To me, it's all about how dirty are the hands getting? You know, essentially so the director sort of in there drafting, doing, intent executing, whereas a COO is much more leadership and vision and responsible for the implementation, but not actually doing the implementation. And I think that's another area around which I did not have a lot of clarity for myself or the team in the early days. And so I think they were expecting this new person to come in and behave like the rest of the directors we have. One of our core values is in this together. So we're all always helping each other out. And so someone coming in and saying, this is the plan, this is how I want you to do it, and here's the resources you need was a different feeling than people were used to.

[Cameron Herold]

Welcome to the Second in Command podcast, produced by the COO alliance and brought to you by its founder, Cameron Herold. In the second in command podcast, we talk to top COOs who share the insights, strategies and tactics that made him the chief behind the Chief. And now here's your host, Cameron Herold.

All right, we've got a really interesting podcast episode today. We have Kate Lincoln Goldfinch, and she is going to be talking to us around how she has recruited, interviewed, hired and onboarded her coo, how to build that killer relationship with the coo. It's one of the rare times we've ever had a CEO or entrepreneur interviewed on the podcast. You'll love this one. This is one you'll want to share. You can also watch all of our Second Command podcasts inside our Second Command podcast YouTube channel. So, Kade, thanks very much for sharing with us on The Second Command podcast. I really appreciate this today.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

It's an honor to be here.

[Cameron Herold]

Yeah, I reached out to a bunch of CEOs that we've been talking to over the last few years just to find out more about how they work directly with a second in command. And it's a really kind of unique perspective. I've had about 450 COs on our podcast and I've only ever interviewed two or three CEOs on the podcast. One who had his COO was one of our very first CEO alliance members. And he over a couple of years moved that CEO into the CEO role so he could move into the Chairman role. And then you're going to be giving us perspective on kind of how you found a second in command, what you were looking for, and how you've onboarded them. So maybe just tell us a little bit before we go in about your business, about the law firm, what you focus on and then we'll kind of dive in on the COO stuff. Sure.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Well, quick, very quick background into me. I, I'm an, I have an immigration law firm. I went into immigration as a law student where my first assignment was to do an intake with this family of detained asylum seekers. And they had a little baby who was five months old and she was wearing this prison uniform and her mom asked me if I could take care of her while, you know, they were in this detention center. I mean, it was one of these like absolutely life changing moments in law school for me. And so I was able to take that case and represent that family and win their asylum case. And I was hooked for life. And so I've been doing what I would say is individual and family based immigration ever since. And my firm has been open for about 10 years. We're based in Texas and we do family based immigration. We like to say we bring peace of mind and security for immigrant families.

[Cameron Herold]

Wow. And I guess where we are in North America right now, with some of the laws that are being changed and a new president coming back in, your business is going to be busier than ever.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Yeah. Let's just say it's been a very wild and intense week.

[Cameron Herold]

Yeah. Well, I guess I'm glad for you. And I'm not glad to because I know you actually deal with some of the heartstrings and all this stuff that. Yeah. So thank you for doing the work. I think it's important work that you're doing and I appreciate that. Can you talk to us about how you first decided you needed a second in Command and what you started looking for and how you figured out what you were looking for.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Sure. It was really. I got. I had my first second in command two years ago. The first second in command is still with me. And at that point I had developed the various departments at my firm. I probably had around 100 employees in, you know, in the US and then abroad. And I had, you know, the marketing team and the finance team and the sales team and the legal department, etc. And what I was experiencing was that I was doing a just enormous lift in facilitating the communication amongst those teams. And I was doing a lot of what I describe as like the plate spinning, you know, sort of every day I would just going around and spinning all the plates and making sure everybody was fortified and knew what they were doing and could talk to each other. And I was unable really to step away because there was no one in between all of those departments. And it was of desperation and necessity. I think that I finally got to the point I'd been hearing over the years and law firm coaching programs that at a certain level you need a PLA or coo. And I just sort of thought, well, not, you know, not me. It's like we always think these things don't apply to us sometimes. But I got to the point where it was like, I really can't step away from this and obtain freedom. And so I started looking.

[Cameron Herold]

So you didn't have the time to actually work on the business because you were so deep kind of in the weeds and you also didn't have any time to grow the people as well. You know, you were kind of managing them, but you didn't have time to ever develop them or grow their skills or grow their confidence. So you started to identify that as the core need. What did you decide you were looking for? How did you start to describe the role in your head to know what a job description or job posting might look like? Because you knew there was a need, but you didn't really know what you're looking for. So walk us through that step.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Well, what I would say is don't do it the way that I did it, because I was. I mean, it worked out for me. But that was by pure chance, I think, because I remember actually when I found myself coo and I went to my leadership team meeting and I said, we're getting a coo. And my legal director said, what is that? What do they do? And I said, well, I'm going to get back to you on that. I was very unclear. So I didn't do the pre work of getting very clear about the skill set and the job description and then go and find the person instead. What happened was I ran into a friend of mine who's a recruiter at a party and I said, hey, I think I need a really good ops person. And she said, oh, I know the person for you. And then connected us and it, it worked out, but do not recommend.

[Cameron Herold]

So you got really lucky then. I mean, I've always described that as the equivalent of somebody waking up in the morning saying, wow, I really need a husband. And somebody saying, I've got a guy. He could be your husband. Like, that's a horrible idea. Right, because you don't. You don't. So what would you suggest then? And knowing what you know now, if you had to go out and do it again, I know you're not out looking for a second, but if you were out looking for a second one, what would you do differently? Now?

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

I would start with the exhaustive wish list of all of the skills that I would want and I would look for a lot of the things that I do on that list and just sort of brain dump everything that in a dream world this person would handle. Then I would convert that into a realistic job description and then I would post it and do the recruitment. And I think even one of the things that I've anecdotally experienced with some of my other law firm owner friends is they, this is, it's such an important role. It's, you know, you're second in command and often people jump in and they hire a person and then it doesn't work and they're in these like really difficult situations trying to navigate that. So if there's an opportunity to work with someone as on a contract basis or to get that, or have some sort of like date before you get married for a role like this, I would recommend that as well.

[Cameron Herold]

Okay, so one of the things that I always talk about is that if a company got really, really good at interviewing and doing proper reference checks, they wouldn't need the dating period as much. Curious what your thoughts are around that. I mean, I know that yes, it would be amazing if you did have that, but do you think if you knew all the questions to ask and you could really grill the person and have multiple people interview them and you could do the proper reference checks and behavioral profiling. Do you think you could trust the system enough or do you think there's still. You would still love to have a bit of that dating period? I'm curious what your gut is on that.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

I think I could go with you on that if it were a really robust onboarding procedure. And, and I would say adding on the trial period after the hire. So you go through all that and then you say, okay, for the first 90 days this is what we're doing. Because you know, what if everybody, what if there's a mutiny or you know, there's just the way this person actually communicates or lead leads is. Doesn't work well with the team. You know, I think there's some of those things that you only find out after the fact. But maybe that's just me.

[Cameron Herold]

Well, once I was, we were hiring a head of sales at 1-800-got junk back in the day and I had the six people that were going to be reporting to the VP of Sales, they did two rounds of interviews with their potential boss. So they grilled the heck out of this person. So by the time that we said, yes, we're hiring them, they were actually pretty excited. So that's a layer of a process that most companies never think of doing.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

That's brilliant. And I think everybody who's listening needs to do that because if this person is an upper level leadership, that's abs. Everybody to whom, like who will be reporting to this person should weigh in.

[Cameron Herold]

Yeah. And that's kind of what I mean by if a company had the proper interviewing system. So I cover some of that in my invest in your leaders online training program in the module on interviewing. It's also stuff that I coach CEOs on in my group coaching. And, but anyway, so, so okay, we got that process. Now you've hired this person. You kind of got lucky in your process. They're starting to work with you. What was your onboarding with them like and what would you change on your onboarding?

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

I would have been more clear about what it was. Instead I said, let's just work side by side. Let's do a lot of shadowing. And then, you know, sort of here's the one off tasks as we're getting comfortable. But I did. I mean, we had a plan, we had an onboarding plan. But I think in retrospect I think I would have been more clear on that. And I wouldn't have had this person feel like they had to prove themselves in the first 90 days before they really got to know everything. Because then you've got this sort of like, I don't know, it's maybe coming in too strong or trying to make a difference or trying to, you know, Just exactly. And I think if you sort of like create space for that not to be a necessity.

[Cameron Herold]

Yeah, I, I just kind of did my happy dance. Which is why you said exactly as I was kind of cheering you on going, if people are just listening, they couldn't what the heck you were saying exactly for. Yeah, I, I 1,000% agree that in that first 30 days the person should make zero decisions.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Yeah.

[Cameron Herold]

They should only meet every leader. They should only sit in on all the business areas. They should be absorbing as much as possible and they should be looking for things that they want to do differently, ideas they want to put in place, changes they might want to make and they make a long list and they do none of them. And in the second month they go back and stress test all of their ideas. Like maybe they walk in going, I need to fire Kelly. And after meeting with a few more people they go nope, I need to handcuff Kelly, I need to fire Bob. But it's by stress testing in month two all of their ideas and then in month three they can start working on some of the easy, low hanging fruit projects that all of a sudden gain the trust of the team and the team start seeing momentum second quarter they can start making the tough decisions. But I think when we let the person come in too early or we don't set them up for that, don't try to make any big decisions early, it's actually going to come and bite you in the ass a little bit more. So I think you saw the, I think you saw it in the right way. So you got them onboarded. They're kind of get settling into their role. What's your day to day look like with your second command now? What was the title you put on that second command? And can you walk us through? I don't know if you're willing to share what comp is or what their roles and responsibilities are.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

My second in command is the CEO and probably I shouldn't discuss comp because I haven't cleared it with her. But what I can say is our day to day is we have a daily meet at a specific time and we have a document where we of keep the running issues at hand. But we have clear at this point clarity around who is running which department. What we had I think for, for too long was overlap and part of this was, I mean another big mistake I made was my nerves about letting go and sort of turning over, trusting this other person. And so we were duplicative in a lot of ways for quite some time. And it worked out fine for us. But I think if, if I had it to do over again, I would go back and say, okay, you're doing this and I'm doing that and at the meetings you're leading, I'm not there and vice versa. Because it, I don't know, it, it ended up being a little bit messier, but now there's more clarity around who is running which department and which project. And then, you know, pretty regular, really regular communication between the two of us.

[Cameron Herold]

I love your daily sync. Do you have a brand around what that meeting is called and can you walk us through how many minutes and what you cover? Do you have a kind of an agenda or is it just a catch up? Can't imagine it's just a catch up.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

It's not just a catch up. I don't know what we call it. You know, one on one I think is what it's called in the calendar or check in maybe and we, it changes day by day. It's whatever we've got in the agenda. I mean that was one change as we went from just meeting and talking about what needed to be talked.

[Cameron Herold]

Hey, it's Cameron. I hope you're loving today's episode. Quick question for you. Does your company have a strong leadership training program in place to grow the skills of everyone who manages people? If you want to help yourself and your company grow, get everyone who manages people learning from my invest in your leaders online training program. There are 12 core leadership skills that I cover online and for only 650 per person they're all going to really grow. CEOs pay me $78,000 a year to coach them one on one. And now you can all benefit for 1% of what they pay me. These are the same leadership skills that I created and certified everyone in at 1-800-got junk when I was there as COO. Go to investinyourleaders.com today and use promo code podcast10 before the end of the month to get 10% off each manager you sign up. Now back to the show.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

About without orienting the other one in advance to having an agenda. So it's all there and we know what we're discussing and you know, a lot of things can be managed in chat between us, but knowing that we've got that meeting and it's going on the agenda, like if it requires a conversation, that's where it goes so that we don't end up interrupting and bugging each other throughout the day in the chat with things that really need A conversation. So it's about a 30 minute meeting, sometimes it's less than that and we just say, okay, I'm thinking this. Do you agree? Yes. No. Why down the agenda?

[Cameron Herold]

I'll tell you. One of the big things that we figured out around culture, around company culture, was anytime you can brand a meeting and put kind of a label on it, that's kind of your culture, your culty kind of name, it somehow elevates the company to the next level. Right? So yeah, And I don't know why that is, but it's around culty, Right. It's a terminology that only the people inside get nobody under. So we would have our war meeting. Nobody understood. But our war meet was our weekly action review or we had our storm meeting. Our storm was our strategic meeting. And then we had huddle. Nobody really understood huddle. So when we would brand these meetings, we knew like, hey, it's time for huddle. People on the other side are like, what's huddle? And they wanted in, right? They wanted to be inside with the tribe. So, yeah, put a brand on it.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Okay.

[Cameron Herold]

And I, I agree that I love having the daily whatever, whether it's a check in adrenaline meeting, whatever you're going to call it, because it does prevent the misinformation of chat. And often if I had like seven things on my list to talk to a VP or a CEO about the seven things by the time I show up for the meeting might be like, oh, that solved itself. This was stupid. Don't need to ask you this one. Right? Otherwise I'm just sending everything over by Slack. I'm interrupting their day, I'm taking up their time without actually being a little bit more thoughtful. So I like the fact that you add it to a list, you show up and you can communicate it. Do you ever find that, that some of the stuff on your list you don't even need to talk about when the meeting's happening?

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Yes, yes. And exactly to that point, I mean, it's our old habit was to just be on chat, chatting throughout the day. And even if somebody, one of us was in a meeting, the other one would chat them with a quick question. And it is so interruptive. You know, it wasn't bothersome, but it, it just takes you off track. And so, yeah, you put it on the agenda and then by Nick tomorrow, midday, it's resolved itself in many instances. So true.

[Cameron Herold]

Well, and it prevents you from being in sync because you see the world differently and perceive the world differently than your COO does. Have you Done your Colby a profile and have they done theirs? Do you or have you done personality profiles?

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

We have done personality profiles and we have very different personalities.

[Cameron Herold]

Exactly. It's kind of like. It's kind of like men are not hairy versions of women. Right. So we see the world differently. We perceive. It's why they wrote the book Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus is so we can actually understand how to communicate and collaborate. If a CEO, I guarantee you your COO would love to send you all the facts and all the figures and all the data because they're probably bigger, but you want the bottom line. You just need the executive summary. So if they're sending you a page of information and all you need was one sentence, when you have the meeting, you actually get the one sentence sync. Is that true?

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Yes, that's true. And I much prefer that method. Just a quick summary in a meeting as opposed to like the big long email with all the explanation.

[Cameron Herold]

And then they probably want more explanation from you, but they can ask you some questions, which allows you just to think out loud and get it out of your head.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Right. And sometimes, you know, we're local to each other, so sometimes like, oh, okay, this is like a harder, longer conversation or it's strategy or vision. Let's meet and go somewhere nice in person. You know, have some more space around it.

[Cameron Herold]

Yeah, we used to do walk and talks. We'd go for coffee, go for lunches, sit at tennis clubs. A lot of that gets you in sync, but I'm glad you're doing that. So you've got your coo. Do they have the COO title? And did you agonize or think about the title at all when you were bringing them in?

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

I did. I don't have a C suite otherwise. I have a. I have directors. So this is the only position in the C suite. And so it was like, for me, I felt. I don't know if it was like imposter syndrome or something. At that point I thought, you know, who am I to bring in a C suite person? But the person I brought in was clear that this title was important to her. And so it, you know, it worked. And now I. I understand somewhat the differences between a director of ops. And then I think kind of in the legal realm, a play is the same as a CEO.

[Cameron Herold]

So let's say you went from a director to a vice president of operations to a coo. What would you see as being different in those layers? Like, what does a COO bring into the organization that might be different? From a director or a VP level. Just curious what your thoughts are.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Yeah, to me it's all about how dirty are the hands getting, essentially. So the director's sort of in there drafting, doing intent executing, whereas a COO is much more leadership and vision and responsible for the implementation, but not actually doing the implementation. And I think that's another area around which I did not have a lot of clarity for myself or the team in the early days. And so I think they were expecting this new person to come in and behave like the rest of the directors we have. One of our core values is in this together. So we're all always helping each other out. And so someone coming in and saying, this is the plan, this is how I want you to do it, and here's the resources you need was a different feeling than people were used to. And so I wish I would have thought about that distinction and explained it to people in advance of bringing in this new role.

[Cameron Herold]

Yeah. And now you actually see that, because that is more true C Suite as well, is when they come in with the plan, do you find that you don't have to delegate much to them, that they actually understand what needs to get done and they're letting you know what needs to get done and you're saying yes versus a director level where you're delegating to and showing them the work and often even telling them how to do it?

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Yes, absolutely. Yes. Yeah, I'm able to make the business plan and the big vision and then she's able to come in and help figure out how to make it happen.

[Cameron Herold]

Yeah. So I've often said that the C level, a true C level, whether it's a cfo, cmo, cto, whatever, the true C level of a business area or the org, should come in with a level of strategic insight where they can actually tell you and help you figure out where to go and how to get there. That they come in with enough P L responsibility that they understand budgeting and cash flow and the balance sheet and they can actually manage some of the financials of the business. They can make financial decisions, they understand how to balance the yeses and no's, they can actually manage conflict and tough discussions. Like they can say no more often than they say yes. Often younger managers or early stage managers, they find it hard to say no to people. And their answer to everything is hire more people. A true C level, their answer is never hire more people. That's kind of the last thing they want to do is have more people. And they come in With a level of autonomy that they can do the job day to day without you having to give them stuff to do. And then lastly, they often bring people with them. A C level often brings more junior employees, suppliers, partners, like they can bring. Did you find that at all that they actually had relationships they brought into your business?

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Yes, that did happen. It was more over time. It wasn't immediate, but yes, over time, absolutely. She's been able to bring in other people.

[Cameron Herold]

Yeah. And directors don't really know anybody. They just know other junior people. Right. They don't know. They didn't have access to the stuff. So I think it's interesting you've got the right person in the right seats. Tell me about the time when it went sideways and you had to work through conflict. You know, it's like a marriage where, you know, every day isn't perfect. There's tough discussions you got to have once in a while and you have to work through those fights. How did you work through one of those tough discussions or tough situations?

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

That's a good question. You know, I would say the biggest issue is that under my leadership, we had a culture of leniency. You know, I'm all about like, is. Is everybody okay and good vibes and fun and sort of the. The metrics and the results are second to is everybody having a good time? It's not. It's not. Not great. And. And she came in very much from a background of a culture of accountability, but also a background in big law, which is just extremely different culture. And so the. Some of the conflicts that have happened for us has been the. The cultural mismatch. And so what will happen is she'll come in with, you know, sort of a. I'll say corporate, just a, you know, a perspective of accountability expectation. And then someone will get upset. They won't like it. They won't let the method of, like the method of communication, then they'll come to me. And my instinct is to smooth and make everybody happy and just, you know, do whatever needs to be done to reduce the drama. And then she would feel not backed by me or unsupported. And. And this sort of goes back to this business of, like, the. The duplication of work between us where we'd both be working on the same issue with the same people, and I'd be trying to smooth it out and she'd be trying to save money, you know, and then, so we've had, I think, a handful of conflicts over those issues where I'll come to her and say, hey, the way this happened created this issue. And then she'll respond and say, yeah, but it's really important, and here's why. And most of the time, I end up apologizing.

[Cameron Herold]

Yeah, it's because there is. Because it's funny, like I'm trying to show something right now, but it's. There's two sides to every story. There's his side and there's her side. And somewhere in between is the truth. When an employee comes to a CEO with a problem, there is another side of the story. And before we say, oh, shit, we got to fix that, we need to ask the other person. So what I tried to do, if somebody ever comes to me, is I go, have you talked to the COO about the problem you're having with them? No. Let me coach you how to have that discussion with them. I'm not going to engage with you on the actual problem. I'm going to coach you on how to go and have that discussion with them and then come back and tell me how that discussion goes. But I'm not actually going to engage on the problem. I'm going to coach you on how to deal with your own problems. Then you're not going to the COO telling her what happened, her going, no, there's another side. You're like, fuck, I didn't know the other side. Yeah, it's because you engaged versus coached. The second part is if the employee goes, no, I haven't, and I don't feel comfortable. Okay, do you want me to kind of moderate or mediate? I'll get the two of you together and I'll coach both of you through the discussion. But again, I'm not going to solve it for you. That's another way that you can kind of elevate your game as a CEO, too.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Yeah, I love that first one. And I have done more of that of late, and it's gone well. And if, you know, again, it's like, if I could rewind time, I would have started with that.

[Cameron Herold]

Well, you're growing. But it's the same thing when companies have an HR department. Don't ever let HR become the union steward. HR's job is to teach employees how to go have the discussion, not to triangulate the discussion. You don't ever want someone in HR talking to Molly and then going over and talking to Bob and then coming back and talking to Molly. Screw that. Go get Molly and Bob to talk to each other, Teach them how to talk to each other, so that then you've grown Their skills, you've grown their confidence, you've grown their collaboration, and you get the heck out of their way.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

A hundred percent on that. And isn't it, I mean, this is, this is the hard stuff. And it really, I mean, it's so important in leadership and leading a company. But this is, I, this is, these are the things that I spend my time on.

[Cameron Herold]

You know, what's the stuff they don't teach you in law school too, right? They don't say, hey, you want to go run your own company? Like, you get no training as lawyers on how to run a company, do you?

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

No, quite the opposite. It's like running a good business is kind of, I don't know, a lot of people think that. Think that makes you a bad lawyer.

[Cameron Herold]

No, but like imagine, imagine allowing somebody to go through business school on their MBA and then saying, oh, you can be a lawyer. No, that's ludicrous. Why do we let lawyers and doctors and engineers and chiropractors and accountants and like, go and start a business without any business? I talked to a dentist who went through seven years of dental training, had one hour of business training and he was allowed to go start a practice. That's malpractice.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Wow.

[Cameron Herold]

Right?

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

It's also true. And for a lawyer.

[Cameron Herold]

Yeah, it's great. Great.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Yeah.

[Cameron Herold]

Like last, last, quick, last quick question here is, you know, the day to day relationship. This is your business spouse, right? This is your business wife, your business husband. How do you stay friends? How do you have date night? What do you do with them to stay liking each other?

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Yeah, we hang out, we go to dinner, we go do fun things, we go to fun conferences together. When we have our in person meetings, we go somewhere nice, we buy each other gifts, we do Christmas gifts, you know, and, and all of that is really important because there have been moments where we've sort of gotten too busy and we've fallen off of that and then three months later where we realize, like, hey, oh, we're a little out of touch. We need to touch it. Yeah.

[Cameron Herold]

And if you're listening, you could actually hear the smile on Kate's face. If you were watching us on our YouTube channel, you can see the smile on Kate's face. Kate Lincoln Goldfitch, thanks so much for sharing with us on the Second Command podcast. Really appreciate your insights today on the COO relationship.

[Kate Lincoln Goldfinch]

Thank you. And I just have to say we really appreciated your programs. The Invest in your leaders course, the COO alliance, and I've been part of the CEO coaching calls and I get amazing stuff from you every time we talk, so thank you.

[Cameron Herold]

Amazing. You're welcome. Thanks so much.

You've been listening to Second In Command, brought to you by COO Alliance Founder Cameron Herold. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to like, share and subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and our other podcast streaming platforms. For more best practices from industry leading COOs, visit COOAlliance dot.